(Magicka) Templar balancing - no love - no logic

WAMB0

I'm sad, not gonna lie, for a while magplar was up there in between the others. It was known for good cleave dmg and for some patches could even keep up in single target - not during the Blood for Blood meta.

But then things got reworked. Burning light became a conditional proc instead of rng, thats in itself not an issue,
- but the proc condition made this passive useless for 3 out of 5 skills.
- Shards that were one of the strongest class AOE spammables lost that status - because the burning light ticks dont apply in AOE anymore - 1 of the targets gets it the others dont O_O
- Shards give 1 initial hit and 10 Hits of the DoT per cast, but with the burning light proccing on every 4th dmg tick in "rapid succession" you mostly get only 4 procs out of 2 casts. If you keep the gap between the last and first tick near 1s you can get 5. That would risk recasting it early though and is just in general a bad solution.
- Similar issue in cleave with jabs - I have my main target and additional ones, I can control which one gets the burning light tick - but only one of them will get the ticks.
- Templar with Jabs and Beam can not light attack as often as other classes and have to break the cast to block for mechanics. Imo this is not rewarded enough.Why should the spammables that have the higher skill cap do less dmg than stuff on other classes, that is blockcastable ?

Empower changes. Templars were unique in having a skill that gave them a really high empower uptime.
Light attack dmg got reduced, but in turn all other sources of empower got buffed. Except that solar stayed as it was - and did not get 300% uptime treatment.
So once again, a change that took from all and gave every class but magplar something back.



Last point is still healing. Templar is supposed to be one of THE healing classes - but for some reason it was decided to take away the only useful healing over time ability that also did some damage and make a morph that only heals and one that only deals damage.
So the magplar is left with burst heals, or jabs which only heal while dealing dmg. (Purifying light is still there but it heals 6s later and onyl in melee range...)

Other classes have strong healing in abilities or passives without hardly loosing anything (warden animal casts, nightblade swallow sould or siphoning strikes)
I still dont understand why the developers are equipping nightblade with everything they can as if it were the newest pay2win class.
This blockcastable spammable, procs their ultimate generating passive (the spammable!), heals them OVER Time for 35% of the dmg done EVERY 2s. So up to 175% of the dmg done as convenient HoT.
Sweeping spears has a way higher risk, cast time, and only heals ONCE for 40% of the dmg done. Where is the logic in this balance???

Last but not least I have to mention:
Templar tanks are the only class that have no source of HP based healing, which is an absolute necessity to be competitive. Sure they have a shield that scales with HP - but there are 2 available for all classes, and Dragonknight and Warden do have shields in addition to powerful HP based healing.
Something needs to be done with that. I suggest making the healing morph of ritual also scale with HP, so the Templar has a HP based shield and a "lower" but HP based healing skill. Similar to how igneous shield works the healing does not need to scale the same way for other targets.

In the end I'd appreciate if we could actually play the gimped templar without crashes or performance issues. But hey, maybe one of those points might be handled?

ealdwin

WAMB0 wrote: »

Templar tanks are the only class that have no source of HP based healing, which is an absolute necessity to be competitive. Sure they have a shield that scales with HP - but there are 2 available for all classes, and Dragonknight and Warden do have shields in addition to powerful HP based healing.
Something needs to be done with that. I suggest making the healing morph of ritual also scale with HP, so the Templar has a HP based shield and a "lower" but HP based healing skill. Similar to how igneous shield works the healing does not need to scale the same way for other targets.

Health based heals are sort of a point of contention right now. While they are certainly a really good ability for tanks in PVE, they are also one of the abilities that enables high health metas in PVP that allow players to get away with increased healing without actually having to spec into max offensive stats. This is what is currently enabling the proc meta that exists now. Personally, I don't think Health scaling heals or shields should exist at all, but that's just my opinion.

That being said, if Templar were to get a health based heal, I'd rather see it implemented through Healing Ritual (PBAoE heal) rather than through Extended Ritual (Ground AoE Heal & Cleanse). Extended Ritual is pretty much a stable ability for Templar Healers, and as a HoT for both Magplars and Stamplars in PVP. Converting ER to a health scaling heal would be a significant nerf to each of those specs, especially to the identity of Healers.

WAMB0

ealdwin wrote: »

WAMB0 wrote: »

Templar tanks are the only class that have no source of HP based healing, which is an absolute necessity to be competitive. Sure they have a shield that scales with HP - but there are 2 available for all classes, and Dragonknight and Warden do have shields in addition to powerful HP based healing.
Something needs to be done with that. I suggest making the healing morph of ritual also scale with HP, so the Templar has a HP based shield and a "lower" but HP based healing skill. Similar to how igneous shield works the healing does not need to scale the same way for other targets.

Health based heals are sort of a point of contention right now. While they are certainly a really good ability for tanks in PVE, they are also one of the abilities that enables high health metas in PVP that allow players to get away with increased healing without actually having to spec into max offensive stats. This is what is currently enabling the proc meta that exists now. Personally, I don't think Health scaling heals or shields should exist at all, but that's just my opinion.

The problem with balancing PVE and PVP is rather seperate from class balance though.
I agree i am mostly looking from a PVE standpoint (although javelin, and the focused charge morphs are mostly used in pvp - and they basically got removed from burning light).
In terms of class balance they are just not keeping treating templar tanks the same way. Even with way lower HP a templar tank needs to spend a LOT more resources to keep himself alive, whereas his sustain and mitigation tools are not superior.

That being said, if Templar were to get a health based heal, I'd rather see it implemented through Healing Ritual (PBAoE heal) rather than through Extended Ritual (Ground AoE Heal & Cleanse). Extended Ritual is pretty much a stable ability for Templar Healers, and as a HoT for both Magplars and Stamplars in PVP. Converting ER to a health scaling heal would be a significant nerf to each of those specs, especially to the identity of Healers.

What I wrote was "I suggest making the healing morph of ritual also scale with HP," ALSO
It should scale with the highest of all 3 resources. Above a certain HP threshold with HP and underneath with the higher offensive stat.
Or with whatever stat would give more - HP wise balanced with similar tank heals.
That would not impact Magplars or Stamplars - only tanky builds.

I agree that the Healing Ritual morphs are not really good skills either and could work, the closest solution imo is still the Extended Ritual. A burst heal just complements a shield way less than a Heal over Time.
(Most other shields are not mainly used to "protect" but also for their powerful secondary abiltiies - protect others, gain major mending / Major Heroism, Projectile absorption / Projectile Reflection and so on.

Maybe the Sun Shield could be worked into an over time effect to actually make use of the burning light passive. Either Dmg over time - or make the burning light passive heal from an additional effect on the shield. Many options - but nothing ever happened.

Firstmep

WAMB0 wrote: »

I'm sad, not gonna lie, for a while magplar was up there in between the others. It was known for good cleave dmg and for some patches could even keep up in single target - not during the Blood for Blood meta.

But then things got reworked. Burning light became a conditional proc instead of rng, thats in itself not an issue,
- but the proc condition made this passive useless for 3 out of 5 skills.
- Shards that were one of the strongest class AOE spammables lost that status - because the burning light ticks dont apply in AOE anymore - 1 of the targets gets it the others dont O_O
- Shards give 1 initial hit and 10 Hits of the DoT per cast, but with the burning light proccing on every 4th dmg tick in "rapid succession" you mostly get only 4 procs out of 2 casts. If you keep the gap between the last and first tick near 1s you can get 5. That would risk recasting it early though and is just in general a bad solution.
- Similar issue in cleave with jabs - I have my main target and additional ones, I can control which one gets the burning light tick - but only one of them will get the ticks.
- Templar with Jabs and Beam can not light attack as often as other classes and have to break the cast to block for mechanics. Imo this is not rewarded enough.Why should the spammables that have the higher skill cap do less dmg than stuff on other classes, that is blockcastable ?

Empower changes. Templars were unique in having a skill that gave them a really high empower uptime.
Light attack dmg got reduced, but in turn all other sources of empower got buffed. Except that solar stayed as it was - and did not get 300% uptime treatment.
So once again, a change that took from all and gave every class but magplar something back.



Last point is still healing. Templar is supposed to be one of THE healing classes - but for some reason it was decided to take away the only useful healing over time ability that also did some damage and make a morph that only heals and one that only deals damage.
So the magplar is left with burst heals, or jabs which only heal while dealing dmg. (Purifying light is still there but it heals 6s later and onyl in melee range...)

Other classes have strong healing in abilities or passives without hardly loosing anything (warden animal casts, nightblade swallow sould or siphoning strikes)
I still dont understand why the developers are equipping nightblade with everything they can as if it were the newest pay2win class.
This blockcastable spammable, procs their ultimate generating passive (the spammable!), heals them OVER Time for 35% of the dmg done EVERY 2s. So up to 175% of the dmg done as convenient HoT.
Sweeping spears has a way higher risk, cast time, and only heals ONCE for 40% of the dmg done. Where is the logic in this balance???

Last but not least I have to mention:
Templar tanks are the only class that have no source of HP based healing, which is an absolute necessity to be competitive. Sure they have a shield that scales with HP - but there are 2 available for all classes, and Dragonknight and Warden do have shields in addition to powerful HP based healing.
Something needs to be done with that. I suggest making the healing morph of ritual also scale with HP, so the Templar has a HP based shield and a "lower" but HP based healing skill. Similar to how igneous shield works the healing does not need to scale the same way for other targets.

In the end I'd appreciate if we could actually play the gimped templar without crashes or performance issues. But hey, maybe one of those points might be handled?

Burning light only ever procced on 1 target due to its 0.5 second internal cooldown.
But it's true if you are not using sweeps, you only get 1 proc every 4 seconds now with shards.

Husan

Everything what you've written is of course true, recently playing mag sorc and it just makes me sad how much better it is in every role. But you haven't even touched upon my two biggest pet peeves regarding templars.
1. meme ultimates, none are worth slotting using at the moment. We only slot aedric spear ultimate for the passive, which brings me to my next point:
2. meme passives. Burning light gutted, yeah, but have you had a look at some of the other passives? Objectively they are half the strength of comparable passives from other classes. Where is the standardization when it benefits templars, ZOS? Ritual of retribution is nerfed because it did does too many things yet arctic blast exists?

WrathOfInnos

Purifying Light feels weak now. It doesn’t scale with Spell Damage and therefore got nothing from the improved major/minor courage and powerful assault buffs. It’s also unaffected by the new bloodthirsty, and was hurt by nerfs to several % multipliers (like vuln, berserk, and slayer).

Bloodthirsty changes also resulted in beam being much weaker. The old BT gave a 30% damage increase for the last 25% of a fight. Now it averages more like 10% in that phase, so Templar doesn’t get nearly as strong of a final burst (they’ve always been weak in early phases and caught up to other classes in execute). Might be time for a buff to beam, and I’d like to see it become Fire damage to match the skill description and benefit from Engulfing Flames.

ExistingRug61

Look, its not that I disagree with what I believe to be the point of this post, which I take to be that templar primarily in the tanking role could use some help.

But,

WAMB0 wrote: »

I still dont understand why the developers are equipping nightblade with everything they can as if it were the newest pay2win class.
This blockcastable spammable, procs their ultimate generating passive (the spammable!), heals them OVER Time for 35% of the dmg done EVERY 2s. So up to 175% of the dmg done as convenient HoT.
Sweeping spears has a way higher risk, cast time, and only heals ONCE for 40% of the dmg done. Where is the logic in this balance???

This is not the argument I would make.
I mean, I can see that for a tank there are some advantages to swallow soul over sweeps, but if used as a spammable ability (ie, their primary purpose), sweeps not only deals more damage but also heals for more, because if you are spamming swallow soul each time you cast it the hot refreshes (not stacks) so you only ever get the first healing tick of 35% from each cast. Its only if you choose to use it as a hot not a spammable and actually let the hot run before recasting that you get more healing from it, but then you need another spammable. And sure when part of a rotation and casting other abilities you will get some extra healing ticks from swallow soul, but it is simply not the case that you anywhere near 175% healing even in that case. The only advantage swallow soul really has as a dps spammable vs sweeps is range. So it seems to me that sweeps is better for dps (and pvp) and worse for tanking, whereas swallow soul is sort of in between, kind of reasonable for both roles - its a tradeoff. And thus any possible change to sweeps to make it better for tanking would have to be balanced by making it worse for dps, and I'm not sure dps templars would be too happy about that.

A bit less seriously, I would say, I wouldn't recommend asking to use nightblade as an example when asking for changes to templar, I mean that's what lead to the nerf to ritual isn't it? Nightblade refreshing path got nerfed so the choice was then either damage or healing, and then however many patches later ZOS decided to follow the same logic for templar.

Husan wrote: »

Everything what you've written is of course true, recently playing mag sorc and it just makes me sad how much better it is in every role. But you haven't even touched upon my two biggest pet peeves regarding templars.
1. meme ultimates, none are worth slotting using at the moment. We only slot aedric spear ultimate for the passive, which brings me to my next point:
2. meme passives. Burning light gutted, yeah, but have you had a look at some of the other passives? Objectively they are half the strength of comparable passives from other classes. Where is the standardization when it benefits templars, ZOS? Ritual of retribution is nerfed because it did does too many things yet arctic blast exists?

Likewise, when doing this sort of comparison of passives we really need to consider all the passives a class has. Passives are notoriously imbalanced when looked at in isolation and its only when combined that they even come close to approximately balanced.
I mean, I can continue the templar vs DK example but cherry pick some other passives which go the other way. For instance
DK: Scaled Armour gives spell res VS Templar: Balanced warrior gives (slightly les) spell res AND also weapon damage
DK: Warmth applies a 30% snare to enemies VS Templar: Sacred ground applies a 30% snare to enemies AND minor mending
[edit: as later pointed out, this second example was based on outdated info, please disregard]

Again, its not that I don't think necessarily isn't worse off in passives (Master Ritualist in particular is not really helpful in competitive PvE for instance), I haven't looked at it enough either way to make that judgement. I'm just saying when making these sort of examples I would prefer to consider the the class more as a whole.

Aside from that, even though I don't play it, it does seem to me that templar lacks a bit in the tanking department. Although I would suggest if there are skills to be improved then maybe it should be the skills that aren't currently really used at all to be the place to look for changes, rather than those that are already extensively used by dps and/or healers.

Firstmep

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Look, its not that I disagree with what I believe to be the point of this post, which I take to be that templar primarily in the tanking role could use some help.

But,

WAMB0 wrote: »

I still dont understand why the developers are equipping nightblade with everything they can as if it were the newest pay2win class.
This blockcastable spammable, procs their ultimate generating passive (the spammable!), heals them OVER Time for 35% of the dmg done EVERY 2s. So up to 175% of the dmg done as convenient HoT.
Sweeping spears has a way higher risk, cast time, and only heals ONCE for 40% of the dmg done. Where is the logic in this balance???

This is not the argument I would make.
I mean, I can see that for a tank there are some advantages to swallow soul over sweeps, but if used as a spammable ability (ie, their primary purpose), sweeps not only deals more damage but also heals for more, because if you are spamming swallow soul each time you cast it the hot refreshes (not stacks) so you only ever get the first healing tick of 35% from each cast. Its only if you choose to use it as a hot not a spammable and actually let the hot run before recasting that you get more healing from it, but then you need another spammable. And sure when part of a rotation and casting other abilities you will get some extra healing ticks from swallow soul, but it is simply not the case that you anywhere near 175% healing even in that case. The only advantage swallow soul really has as a dps spammable vs sweeps is range. So it seems to me that sweeps is better for dps (and pvp) and worse for tanking, whereas swallow soul is sort of in between, kind of reasonable for both roles - its a tradeoff. And thus any possible change to sweeps to make it better for tanking would have to be balanced by making it worse for dps, and I'm not sure dps templars would be too happy about that.

A bit less seriously, I would say, I wouldn't recommend asking to use nightblade as an example when asking for changes to templar, I mean that's what lead to the nerf to ritual isn't it? Nightblade refreshing path got nerfed so the choice was then either damage or healing, and then however many patches later ZOS decided to follow the same logic for templar.

Husan wrote: »

Everything what you've written is of course true, recently playing mag sorc and it just makes me sad how much better it is in every role. But you haven't even touched upon my two biggest pet peeves regarding templars.
1. meme ultimates, none are worth slotting using at the moment. We only slot aedric spear ultimate for the passive, which brings me to my next point:
2. meme passives. Burning light gutted, yeah, but have you had a look at some of the other passives? Objectively they are half the strength of comparable passives from other classes. Where is the standardization when it benefits templars, ZOS? Ritual of retribution is nerfed because it did does too many things yet arctic blast exists?

Likewise, when doing this sort of comparison of passives we really need to consider all the passives a class has. Passives are notoriously imbalanced when looked at in isolation and its only when combined that they even come close to approximately balanced.
I mean, I can continue the templar vs DK example but cherry pick some other passives which go the other way. For instance
DK: Scaled Armour gives spell res VS Templar: Balanced warrior gives (slightly les) spell res AND also weapon damage
DK: Warmth applies a 30% snare to enemies VS Templar: Sacred ground applies a 30% snare to enemies AND minor mending

Again, its not that I don't think necessarily isn't worse off in passives (Master Ritualist in particular is not really helpful in competitive PvE for instance), I haven't looked at it enough either way to make that judgement. I'm just saying when making these sort of examples I would prefer to consider the the class more as a whole.

Aside from that, even though I don't play it, it does seem to me that templar lacks a bit in the tanking department. Although I would suggest if there are skills to be improved then maybe it should be the skills that aren't currently really used at all to be the place to look for changes, rather than those that are already extensively used by dps and/or healers.

Swallow soul also heals while you refresh dotsz rebuff etc, let's not forget that.

Drdeath20

You gotta jump through some serious hoops to come to the conclusion that templars are fine.

ExistingRug61

Firstmep wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Look, its not that I disagree with what I believe to be the point of this post, which I take to be that templar primarily in the tanking role could use some help.

But,

WAMB0 wrote: »

I still dont understand why the developers are equipping nightblade with everything they can as if it were the newest pay2win class.
This blockcastable spammable, procs their ultimate generating passive (the spammable!), heals them OVER Time for 35% of the dmg done EVERY 2s. So up to 175% of the dmg done as convenient HoT.
Sweeping spears has a way higher risk, cast time, and only heals ONCE for 40% of the dmg done. Where is the logic in this balance???

This is not the argument I would make.
I mean, I can see that for a tank there are some advantages to swallow soul over sweeps, but if used as a spammable ability (ie, their primary purpose), sweeps not only deals more damage but also heals for more, because if you are spamming swallow soul each time you cast it the hot refreshes (not stacks) so you only ever get the first healing tick of 35% from each cast. Its only if you choose to use it as a hot not a spammable and actually let the hot run before recasting that you get more healing from it, but then you need another spammable. And sure when part of a rotation and casting other abilities you will get some extra healing ticks from swallow soul, but it is simply not the case that you anywhere near 175% healing even in that case. The only advantage swallow soul really has as a dps spammable vs sweeps is range. So it seems to me that sweeps is better for dps (and pvp) and worse for tanking, whereas swallow soul is sort of in between, kind of reasonable for both roles - its a tradeoff. And thus any possible change to sweeps to make it better for tanking would have to be balanced by making it worse for dps, and I'm not sure dps templars would be too happy about that.

A bit less seriously, I would say, I wouldn't recommend asking to use nightblade as an example when asking for changes to templar, I mean that's what lead to the nerf to ritual isn't it? Nightblade refreshing path got nerfed so the choice was then either damage or healing, and then however many patches later ZOS decided to follow the same logic for templar.

Husan wrote: »

Everything what you've written is of course true, recently playing mag sorc and it just makes me sad how much better it is in every role. But you haven't even touched upon my two biggest pet peeves regarding templars.
1. meme ultimates, none are worth slotting using at the moment. We only slot aedric spear ultimate for the passive, which brings me to my next point:
2. meme passives. Burning light gutted, yeah, but have you had a look at some of the other passives? Objectively they are half the strength of comparable passives from other classes. Where is the standardization when it benefits templars, ZOS? Ritual of retribution is nerfed because it did does too many things yet arctic blast exists?

Likewise, when doing this sort of comparison of passives we really need to consider all the passives a class has. Passives are notoriously imbalanced when looked at in isolation and its only when combined that they even come close to approximately balanced.
I mean, I can continue the templar vs DK example but cherry pick some other passives which go the other way. For instance
DK: Scaled Armour gives spell res VS Templar: Balanced warrior gives (slightly les) spell res AND also weapon damage
DK: Warmth applies a 30% snare to enemies VS Templar: Sacred ground applies a 30% snare to enemies AND minor mending

Again, its not that I don't think necessarily isn't worse off in passives (Master Ritualist in particular is not really helpful in competitive PvE for instance), I haven't looked at it enough either way to make that judgement. I'm just saying when making these sort of examples I would prefer to consider the the class more as a whole.

Aside from that, even though I don't play it, it does seem to me that templar lacks a bit in the tanking department. Although I would suggest if there are skills to be improved then maybe it should be the skills that aren't currently really used at all to be the place to look for changes, rather than those that are already extensively used by dps and/or healers.

Swallow soul also heals while you refresh dotsz rebuff etc, let's not forget that.

Yeah I did mention that. But even so, if you take a normal rotation that might be like 5 swallow souls out of 10 casts, that results in around 8 swallow soul healing ticks (5 from each cast plus at most 3 over the 5sec while you recast other skills). So that’s an average of 8x35/5 = 56% healing per cast. So not significantly more percentage than sweeps, and probably a similar amount of healing once you consider the extra damage of sweeps.

Drdeath20 wrote: »

You gotta jump through some serious hoops to come to the conclusion that templars are fine.

Not sure if this was aimed at my comment, but if it was that wasn’t my point. I don’t disagree with the intent/point of the thread, just a couple of the examples used as reasoning.

WAMB0

Yeah I did mention that. But even so, if you take a normal rotation that might be like 5 swallow souls out of 10 casts, that results in around 8 swallow soul healing ticks (5 from each cast plus at most 3 over the 5sec while you recast other skills). So that’s an average of 8x35/5 = 56% healing per cast. So not significantly more percentage than sweeps, and probably a similar amount of healing once you consider the extra damage of sweeps.

It is less then 5/10 casts. Just quickly checking a log from a decent yolna fight 155 LA 46 spammables. So 30% of casts.

And even 56% is significantly more than 40% its 40% more.
Avg cast of a swallow soul (recent Lokke fight) 42,7k where as the 4 ticks of 11k avg would make 44k.
Thats 5% more dps. There will be a burning light tick procced, but swallow also procs NB passives.
(NB was dunmer templar is breton, but try to sustain a dunmer/highelf magplar these days)

so 105%*40% = 42% healing for magplar WITH the channeled (longer than GCD) melee ability (5% more dps)
Against the ranged skill you can blockcast for repeatead 35% healing ticks while having 50% mitigation?
On top of that a HoT is just more powerful. The templar cant heal itself with jabs while delivering Orbs in portal, going to ress someone and so on.



My point was not only about tanking tbh. Also as magplar - stamplar is in a good position though (PVE). You CAN do anything PVE related as magplar, some things are tedious and ugly, way worse than other classes in that position - but definitely possible. But you can't really tank as templar what other classes can tank, without sacrificing twice the skillslots or a 5pc set.

ExistingRug61

WAMB0 wrote: »

Yeah I did mention that. But even so, if you take a normal rotation that might be like 5 swallow souls out of 10 casts, that results in around 8 swallow soul healing ticks (5 from each cast plus at most 3 over the 5sec while you recast other skills). So that’s an average of 8x35/5 = 56% healing per cast. So not significantly more percentage than sweeps, and probably a similar amount of healing once you consider the extra damage of sweeps.

It is less then 5/10 casts. Just quickly checking a log from a decent yolna fight 155 LA 46 spammables. So 30% of casts.

And even 56% is significantly more than 40% its 40% more.
Avg cast of a swallow soul (recent Lokke fight) 42,7k where as the 4 ticks of 11k avg would make 44k.
Thats 5% more dps. There will be a burning light tick procced, but swallow also procs NB passives.
(NB was dunmer templar is breton, but try to sustain a dunmer/highelf magplar these days)

so 105%*40% = 42% healing for magplar WITH the channeled (longer than GCD) melee ability (5% more dps)
Against the ranged skill you can blockcast for repeatead 35% healing ticks while having 50% mitigation?
On top of that a HoT is just more powerful. The templar cant heal itself with jabs while delivering Orbs in portal, going to ress someone and so on.



My point was not only about tanking tbh. Also as magplar - stamplar is in a good position though (PVE). You CAN do anything PVE related as magplar, some things are tedious and ugly, way worse than other classes in that position - but definitely possible. But you can't really tank as templar what other classes can tank, without sacrificing twice the skillslots or a 5pc set.

Yeah that’s fair, the numbers I see have a bit more difference than yours between the skills and also number of spammables etc which is what I was basing my comment on. But that’s probably because it appears you probably are a better endgame pve’er than I (Generally speaking I am more pvp focused), in which case I am happy to defer to the numbers you provided.

Like I said generally I am in agreement with the intent and message of the op, it’s probably just my experiences with specific skills is a bit different.

WAMB0

Likewise, when doing this sort of comparison of passives we really need to consider all the passives a class has. Passives are notoriously imbalanced when looked at in isolation and its only when combined that they even come close to approximately balanced.
I mean, I can continue the templar vs DK example but cherry pick some other passives which go the other way. For instance
DK: Scaled Armour gives spell res VS Templar: Balanced warrior gives (slightly les) spell res AND also weapon damage
DK: Warmth applies a 30% snare to enemies VS Templar: Sacred ground applies a 30% snare to enemies AND minor mending

Balanced warrior is again an example where stamplar benefits and magplar looses out.
You cant just leave out the values though. Scaled Armour gives 3300 spell res, where balanced warrior gives 2640 spell res
Now its hard to compare resistances to %weapn dmg

Warmth applies a 30% snare to enemies affected by 5 skills + Ult from that tree.
Sacred ground does NOT snare at all anymore - it was also only affecting 2 skills. It now gives minor mending and block mitigation. DK has said block mitigation WITHOUT condition as a seperate passive.

Your examples are very flawed. The examples @Husan showed however were really obvious.

ExistingRug61

WAMB0 wrote: »

Likewise, when doing this sort of comparison of passives we really need to consider all the passives a class has. Passives are notoriously imbalanced when looked at in isolation and its only when combined that they even come close to approximately balanced.
I mean, I can continue the templar vs DK example but cherry pick some other passives which go the other way. For instance
DK: Scaled Armour gives spell res VS Templar: Balanced warrior gives (slightly les) spell res AND also weapon damage
DK: Warmth applies a 30% snare to enemies VS Templar: Sacred ground applies a 30% snare to enemies AND minor mending

Balanced warrior is again an example where stamplar benefits and magplar looses out.
You cant just leave out the values though. Scaled Armour gives 3300 spell res, where balanced warrior gives 2640 spell res
Now its hard to compare resistances to %weapn dmg

Warmth applies a 30% snare to enemies affected by 5 skills + Ult from that tree.
Sacred ground does NOT snare at all anymore - it was also only affecting 2 skills. It now gives minor mending and block mitigation. DK has said block mitigation WITHOUT condition as a seperate passive.

Your examples are very flawed. The examples @Husan showed however were really obvious.

Apologies for my error on sacred ground, that’s what i get for trusting the web vs opening in game to check.
In the case of sacred ground though - that means a more direct comparison would be to dk’s iron skin. So it’s 10%block vs 10%block and mending. And while sacred ground is conditional vs always active, it should have almost perma uptime with ritual.

However, the main point I was trying to make wasn’t about individual passives (which probably contributed to my rushed examples) it’s that passives individually wildly vary in value and you have to look at all the passives together and not just cherry pick individual ones. If that is done I wouldn’t be surprised that it may turn out that Templar comes up lacking and thus I would agree it needs improvement, but that wasn’t the argument presented.

ealdwin

WAMB0 wrote: »

ealdwin wrote: »

WAMB0 wrote: »

Templar tanks are the only class that have no source of HP based healing, which is an absolute necessity to be competitive. Sure they have a shield that scales with HP - but there are 2 available for all classes, and Dragonknight and Warden do have shields in addition to powerful HP based healing.
Something needs to be done with that. I suggest making the healing morph of ritual also scale with HP, so the Templar has a HP based shield and a "lower" but HP based healing skill. Similar to how igneous shield works the healing does not need to scale the same way for other targets.

Health based heals are sort of a point of contention right now. While they are certainly a really good ability for tanks in PVE, they are also one of the abilities that enables high health metas in PVP that allow players to get away with increased healing without actually having to spec into max offensive stats. This is what is currently enabling the proc meta that exists now. Personally, I don't think Health scaling heals or shields should exist at all, but that's just my opinion.

The problem with balancing PVE and PVP is rather seperate from class balance though.
I agree i am mostly looking from a PVE standpoint (although javelin, and the focused charge morphs are mostly used in pvp - and they basically got removed from burning light).
In terms of class balance they are just not keeping treating templar tanks the same way. Even with way lower HP a templar tank needs to spend a LOT more resources to keep himself alive, whereas his sustain and mitigation tools are not superior.

That being said, if Templar were to get a health based heal, I'd rather see it implemented through Healing Ritual (PBAoE heal) rather than through Extended Ritual (Ground AoE Heal & Cleanse). Extended Ritual is pretty much a stable ability for Templar Healers, and as a HoT for both Magplars and Stamplars in PVP. Converting ER to a health scaling heal would be a significant nerf to each of those specs, especially to the identity of Healers.

What I wrote was "I suggest making the healing morph of ritual also scale with HP," ALSO
It should scale with the highest of all 3 resources. Above a certain HP threshold with HP and underneath with the higher offensive stat.
Or with whatever stat would give more - HP wise balanced with similar tank heals.
That would not impact Magplars or Stamplars - only tanky builds.

I agree that the Healing Ritual morphs are not really good skills either and could work, the closest solution imo is still the Extended Ritual. A burst heal just complements a shield way less than a Heal over Time.
(Most other shields are not mainly used to "protect" but also for their powerful secondary abiltiies - protect others, gain major mending / Major Heroism, Projectile absorption / Projectile Reflection and so on.

Maybe the Sun Shield could be worked into an over time effect to actually make use of the burning light passive. Either Dmg over time - or make the burning light passive heal from an additional effect on the shield. Many options - but nothing ever happened.

Thank you for the clarification. I get what you are suggesting regarding Extended Ritual a bit better now.

I'm still going to disagree in regards to letting ER scale off of Health. I get the appeal of wanting ER to scale off of Health, but such a change would not be health for what balance exists in the game. One of the pillars propping up the current proc meta is the ability through Health Based heals to build purely into max health, wear damage dealing proc sets, and then be able to deal great damage while having high survivability. Building in PVP should require some sacrifice, and this current meta allows some classes to get away with not having to do that.

Right now, those classes are Stamden and Stamcro. Allowing ER to also scale off of max Health would add Templar to that list. How? Consider a Templar build in the current meta that could put all 64 points into Health, wear a combination of Thews, Crimson, or Radiant Bastion, also wear Malacath's, then use Spiked Bone Shield + Blazing Shield, and then would also have access to a large AoE Health Scaling HoT that also cleanses off 5 negative effects. Allowing ER to also scale off of Health would usher in builds like this as THE Templar meta. On the plus side, Blazing Shield builds would be back, but on the negative side, Blazing Shield builds would be back. This would bring a renewed ire towards Templars that we haven't seen since the DoT meta.

To be clear, I am absolutely 100% agree that Templar as a class is lacking compared to others, and is in need of help. I just don't think that help needs to be a Health scaling Extended Ritual.

If what Templar Tanks need is a Health Scaling HoT, then there are other options. Healing Ritual could be given a HoT on the cast that's Health scaling. Eclipse could be reworked again (and perhaps be made actually really good this time), with the Living Dark morph gaining a Health scaling HoT. Perhaps a generic Health Scaling HoT could be made available. There are, as you said, many options. I don't agree that a change to ER is a good one.

Husan

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

However, the main point I was trying to make wasn’t about individual passives (which probably contributed to my rushed examples) it’s that passives individually wildly vary in value and you have to look at all the passives together and not just cherry pick individual ones. If that is done I wouldn’t be surprised that it may turn out that Templar comes up lacking and thus I would agree it needs improvement, but that wasn’t the argument presented.

I've picked two of the most obvious ones because I can't be bothered to write yet another 2000+ words essay on why templar is broken.

Burning light in reality works only with jabs, further cementing the jab 24/7 playstyle.
Balanced warrior is not balanced (6% weapon damage, 0%(!) spell damage).
Mending templar passive gives up to 12% more healing depending on player health vs accelerated growth warden passive gives major mending 25%!!! more healing done after healing yourself or ally under 40% health.
Light weaver 2 ult per healing a target below 50% is nice, but honestly 33000 spell/phys resistance while channeling rite of passage? Should be in the skill itself already and more than half of the bonus (or all on tanks) is completely wasted anyway unless fighting someone with a lot of penetration in PvP.
Master ritualist 20% faster res time and fill a soul gem. Many people mentioned already how filling up a soul gem is a meme, but the faster res time can be good when pushing new content and teammates dying a lot. However, I just wear kagrenac in that case and when we are not dying the passive is useless, I'd much rather have something combat related.

If you really want to read more about templars, there are many, many posts going into detail with the weaknesses of templar class. Literally every PTS cycle we have 10+ pages of ignored feedback. And threads like this one keep popping in every corner of the forum. It turns out templar does come up lacking .

Shout out to my boys @Joy_Division and @Cinbri, they make some very good points on templar. All ignored by the devs ofcourse. Here is an example post from Cinbri talking about the master ritualist passive.

Cinbri wrote: »

Here is bit of talk regarding Master Ritualist passive that literally jsut another dead passive.
Said lot of time that having passive that not working incombat to actively benefit user is same like not having this passive at all. But lets see ressurect numbers: here coz without diminishing was turning templar ressurect into OP so zos added diminishes but as result passive effect suffered too much:



1. Ritualist reduce res by 1.2s. Meanwhile Kagrenac by 1.5s, Battle Resurrection by 1.8s. At same time those additional bonuses are useless, first - when ressing you already not spending mana coz you wasting it on ressurcet so you dont need this small restore once per millenia, secondly - this is last passive in lin and when people leveled to be be able to invest into it - they dont have empty soulgems nor they do need to fill them coz everything in overland drop filled soulgems already. I.e for exchange of additional bonus of filling gems and restoring mana main function of passive already perform worse than additional sources.
2. In PvP Ritualist + Alliance passive reduce res by 2.6s, i.e. stacking of those passives loose 0.4s diminishing. I.e. diminish of 30% of Ritualist itself.
3. Rit+ Kag reduce res by 2.4s, i.e. stacking of those loose 0.6s diminishing. i.e diminish of 50% of Ritualist passive itself.
4. Rit+Kag+Passive reduce res by 3.5s, i.e. stacking loose 1.0s diminishing. I.e. diminish that is like 80% of Ritualist passive itself.
^^^ Isnt you think that while passive operating with miliseconds, having diminishing that by defualt in PvP reduce effectiveness by so much miliseconds is too punishing?
5. Kag+Alliance reduce res by 2.8s, i.e. it loose 0.5s, i.e. diminishing is bigger for 0.1s than Rit+Allaince but total ressureect time is 0.2s faster. I.e. people who desire do dedicate themsleves to ressurect bot would be more effective with it than templar without Kag.
6. Anyone with alliance war passive would ressurect for 0.6s faster than templar without passive, and only 0.8 slower than tempalr with both passives. It like 0.2s to value effectiveness of tempalr vs non-templar for entire passive.
7. In PvE Kagrenac ressurect faster than Ritualist for 0.3s, i.e. anyone with Kag would ressurect faster than templar passive, will have actually viable passive that work in combat and get additional spd bonus from Kag. While Templar in Kag would win just 0.9s for res (not even straight 1.0s) while inexchange of this time he loose full bonus of passive that could be otherwise used proactivly in combat for either dps or helping with heals to prevent deaths. Imagine get 0.9s faster ressurect time with wasting on ressurect like 0.5% of combat time when you could have smth like for example 4% more healing 100% of time.
8. In PvP even worse - Templar fully setuped would do just 0.7s faster ressurect than any nontemplar with passive+kag. So templar loose entire proactive passive effect for just 0.7s faster ressurect.

Running non-templar ressurect-focused build is more effective. If people wants to focus on ressurect - they have options to do it effectively, while class passives should provide unique passive strength. This logic applied even to item sets when Kagrenac recieved huge (for that time) boost to spd as 5pc or Hanu having additional bonus as 5pc - bonus fully dedicated to pure ressurection has no value because it has zero effect on parses, etc.
And for templar it especially worse coz ressurect being class passive means no alternatives, no options.
Master Ritualist need to be changed into smth that actively helping in fight instead of adding marginal numbers to action that value failure of templar job and happens less than 1% time in combat.

Husan

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/400630/templars-need-reform-because-the-game-has-changed

Joy_Divisions post from 2 years ago. Highly recommend a read. Things haven't changed one bit. Well, maybe a bit, but for the worse

ealdwin

Husan wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/400630/templars-need-reform-because-the-game-has-changed

Joy_Divisions post from 2 years ago. Highly recommend a read. Things haven't changed one bit. Well, maybe a bit, but for the worse

Oof. That post could have been written today.

I've been main-ing a Templar since Morrowind (?... It's been a while), and the only significant positive change I can recall is Solar Barrage losing its cast time and gaining Empower for the entire duration. I think ZOS doesn't know what to do with the class besides leaning into Jabs/Sweeps further.

kojou

While I am sad about Ritual of Retribution losing its heal, it does make it more in line with Path of Darkness and Ash Cloud, so I can understand why they did it.

The Bloodthirsty nerf did disproportional affect builds with executes, but it also levels the playing field for builds that don't have viable executes (Magicka Dragon Knight, Magicka Warden, Magicka Sorcerer, Magicka Necromancer), and makes Infused more viable for some situations, so I can understand why that change was made as well.

I can totally sign on with gripes related to Burning Light though. I would like the combat team to adjust it in some way so that it fires more consistently like it used to.

Sun Shield was supposed to be the health based tanking ability that gives a different flavor to Templar tanking. It is not a heal, but it provides a similar benefit. I would like to see a more PvE tanking focused morph of this skill, but that is not the only thing that makes Templars less fun to tank with. They also need a pull mechanic (not the Fighter's Guild one it costs Stamina and is clunky to use) and a "root" mechanic. Dragon Knights excel at tanking because their combination of tanking skills is complete and straight forward to use, health based healing is just the cherry on top. If it makes you feel better Nightblades are even worse to tank with than Templars are.

As for healing while doing damage, Templar's puncturing sweeps is either the best in the game or very close to it. Warden's "healing while doing damage" abilities aren't even close. Nightblade's Swallow Soul and Siphoning Attacks heal is decent, but it is single target, where Puncturing Sweeps ramps up the healing the more things that are around you and does good AoE and single target, so they trade off in different situations.

The main thing that is better about Nightblades IMO is that Merciless Resolve is much better than Purifying Light. Everything else is somewhat equivalent, or only better in a particular situation.

I have spent time on every class and worked out DPS rotations on every class and I still prefer Magicka Templar DPS when attempting a DLC hard mode or Trial for the first time. The combination of survival and DPS is really good and the only class that might be better for survival is Sorcerer, but that is my least favorite class to play, and Templar's cleave damage is much better.

WAMB0

kojou wrote: »

As for healing while doing damage, Templar's puncturing sweeps is either the best in the game or very close to it. Warden's "healing while doing damage" abilities aren't even close. Nightblade's Swallow Soul and Siphoning Attacks heal is decent, but it is single target, where Puncturing Sweeps ramps up the healing the more things that are around you and does good AoE and single target, so they trade off in different situations.

The main thing that is better about Nightblades IMO is that Merciless Resolve is much better than Purifying Light. Everything else is somewhat equivalent, or only better in a particular situation.

I have spent time on every class and worked out DPS rotations on every class and I still prefer Magicka Templar DPS when attempting a DLC hard mode or Trial for the first time. The combination of survival and DPS is really good and the only class that might be better for survival is Sorcerer, but that is my least favorite class to play, and Templar's cleave damage is much better.

Just what 2 points are you looking at ? Nightblades literally have a single target and a AOE dps+heal skill, the ST might not be more dps than jabs, the AOE one is way stronger than shards or jabs as AOE spammable though.
It gives you WAY more survivability when you can get the healing while dodging or blocking. If you can keep jabbing its not high dmg and you can heal it out over time as well. 50% mitigation while healing and possibly not get staggered - that means only half the healing needed...
There's just no way to look at those skills without tunneling or prejudice and arrive at: jabs is the better heal


[quote="ealdwin;c-7051933"
(...)
Thank you for the clarification. I get what you are suggesting regarding Extended Ritual a bit better now.

I'm still going to disagree in regards to letting ER scale off of Health. I get the appeal of wanting ER to scale off of Health, but such a change would not be health for what balance exists in the game. One of the pillars propping up the current proc meta is the ability through Health Based heals to build purely into max health, wear damage dealing proc sets, and then be able to deal great damage while having high survivability. Building in PVP should require some sacrifice, and this current meta allows some classes to get away with not having to do that.

[..]

To be clear, I am absolutely 100% agree that Templar as a class is lacking compared to others, and is in need of help. I just don't think that help needs to be a Health scaling Extended Ritual.

If what Templar Tanks need is a Health Scaling HoT, then there are other options. Healing Ritual could be given a HoT on the cast that's Health scaling. Eclipse could be reworked again (and perhaps be made actually really good this time), with the Living Dark morph gaining a Health scaling HoT. Perhaps a generic Health Scaling HoT could be made available. There are, as you said, many options. I don't agree that a change to ER is a good one.[/quote]

Your reason for disagreeing is the lack of balance between PVE and PVP for those kind of skills.
They screwed that up already with other health scaling heals. Its not because those are generally overpowered - they mainly are in PVP. In PVE it would just great.

ER being a HP scaling HoT with the additional purge effect would not be broken. The heal per tick obviously needs to be scaled to be for example to be about as strong as dark cloak (while only ticking half as often per tick.
Dark cloak or polar wind have strong secondary effects as well (from tree passives and from skill)

I dont even want to start about wardens free to cast sustain tool with a crazy sustain and dmg passive, with a decent passive heal that also gives a major buff.
Templars got... a major buff, thats costs a decent % of what it returns. It has a decent CONDITIONAL effect, and that condition makes it basically useless in pvp and many pve situations, same goes for the only tree passive... there's just no "not loosing"

Grianasteri

Having been trolled by a 1vx templar using the meta 1 button jabs rotation last night... whatever updates templar may receive in future, devs may wish to focus on this broken mechanic.

Firstmep

Grianasteri wrote: »

Having been trolled by a 1vx templar using the meta 1 button jabs rotation last night... whatever updates templar may receive in future, devs may wish to focus on this broken mechanic.

Frankly if you die to jabs spam in an xv1 situation, then you need to take a good look at yourself.
I have 0 issues with jabs regardless of what class I'm playing.
Heck even on a squishy magblade with barely any resistances..

Husan

Grianasteri wrote: »

Having been trolled by a 1vx templar using the meta 1 button jabs rotation last night... whatever updates templar may receive in future, devs may wish to focus on this broken mechanic.

That's why I keep saying nerf jabs to make templar great again!. Whenever templars are in a good spot in PvP these forums instantly flood with people crying about jabs. They are objectively in a bad spot right now and people are still complaining about jabs. Trust me, we don't want to cheese you with jabs, but there is just no alternative . It's the only thing we have got left working well from our original toolkit.

Athan1

Jabs aside, Templar is the weakest class right now. It's been systematically more nerfed than any other class and it isn't a coincidence that we're all moaning about it - compare how many stop nerfing templars threads there are, compared to any other class

Mitaka211

Athan1 wrote: »

Jabs aside, Templar is the weakest class right now. It's been systematically more nerfed than any other class and it isn't a coincidence that we're all moaning about it - compare how many stop nerfing templars threads there are, compared to any other class

It's been like this for years that's whats annoying. Any skill Templar has except jabs, which is either magika or stamina, another class has with greater debuffs, greater damage , some even aoe. Other classes get major debuffs and buffs from just using their class skills in their rotation which i think is so unfair and stupid. If you pvp with a templar you can get close to deleting this game real quick, it's frustrating. What hasn't been said about templars by even the reps for years now, cause from what i think these developers seem to have it out for templars. What we wait for 6 months so they can nerf even more or "fix minor bugs" while other classes get page upon page of attention and changes. I think it's total bull and i am kinda done at this point.

Hotdog_23

Change Hasty Prayer into a health based heal for tanks. The argument that they are a point of contention should not matter if all the other classes have one. Templar tanks needs some sort of cc that they can actually use.

Make Breath of life scale with highest offensive stat like Ritual of Retribution does. Give stamina a chance at healing the same as magic does.

In fact, let the entire resto staff scale with highest offensive stat.

Give stamplar a stamina morph of Toppling Charge.

Why can’t Biting Jabs heal the same as Puncturing Sweep after all both morphs of Necromancer’s Death Scythe heal.

Give shards the same unlimited synergy resources return as orbs.

Why can’t burning light stack last 3 seconds from every source to give templar a chance at better chance of it producing instead of 1 second.

Don’t get me started on Nova and its morphs. Does anyone even use it anymore? Very rarely see it used at all.

Backlash and its morph need a better shorter burst time. Comparing it to Scorch and blastbones is a joke.

Ah who am I kidding ZOS doesn’t love templar’s anymore compared to the kids on the block or the old one’s either for that matter. At least we are target dummies warriors cause if they gave what I ask for we would complete for the top spot.

ealdwin

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Change Hasty Prayer into a health based heal for tanks. The argument that they are a point of contention should not matter if all the other classes have one. Templar tanks needs some sort of cc that they can actually use.

Make Breath of life scale with highest offensive stat like Ritual of Retribution does. Give stamina a chance at healing the same as magic does.

In fact, let the entire resto staff scale with highest offensive stat.

Give stamplar a stamina morph of Toppling Charge.

Why can’t Biting Jabs heal the same as Puncturing Sweep after all both morphs of Necromancer’s Death Scythe heal.

Give shards the same unlimited synergy resources return as orbs.

Why can’t burning light stack last 3 seconds from every source to give templar a chance at better chance of it producing instead of 1 second.

Don’t get me started on Nova and its morphs. Does anyone even use it anymore? Very rarely see it used at all.

Backlash and its morph need a better shorter burst time. Comparing it to Scorch and blastbones is a joke.

Ah who am I kidding ZOS doesn’t love templar’s anymore compared to the kids on the block or the old one’s either for that matter. At least we are target dummies warriors cause if they gave what I ask for we would complete for the top spot.

A PBAoE Health based heal for Templar Tanks through Hasty Prayer would certainly help bring them up to at least a bit more viable level. Plus, it would add a nice bit of group utility.

As long as it still costs Magicka, I see no problem with BoL scaling off of highest offensive resource. Nothing against Stam heals, just seems odd casting healing spells through sheer physical will in a universe where healing is its own school of magic.

Opening up weapons to scaling off of highest offensive resource, could be interesting...

So, Biting Jabs used to be a mag ability that increased either crit % or damage against low health opponents, which then became a stam ability that granted Major Savagery. In order for healing to be added to the base ability, some changes would have to be made, notably a new mag morph effect. Not saying it couldn’t happen, but its a bit more complicated.

First, disclaimer, I love jabs/sweeps. Its one of the few unique holdouts from older class designs. But, it may also be what keeps tripping the devs up as it seems they have no idea what to do with it, and just build Templar class around it.

One idea, IF the ability needs to be changed, would be to make it an instant cast PBAoE spammable, comparable to Cleave (2H), that also heals for % of damage done. Stam would either keep major savagery, or regain bonus crit against low health opponents for a pseudo-execute. Mag would gain a higher % healing from ability. Maybe 20% base, 40% mag morph. Snares would be reintroduced into another ability or passive. This would ideally keep the identity of the ability as being part of what makes Templar’s house deadly, while freeing up the skill to prove healing for stam and to maybe free up Templar from being just jabs.

Again, this is only IF jabs/sweeps needs changed.

I’d go further and put orbs and shards on different synergy cooldowns once more.

Burning light is a dummy-parse inspired mess that just promotes jab spamming. Any positive change at this point is welcome.

Nova needs a PBAoE morph at least. More help is needed, but that would be a start. This should be THE ultimate for templar dps. Sadly its not.

Saw a suggestion to put Major Breach on backlash, and agree. Would make the ability actually useful in group settings once more. Plus Tankplars could drop puncture.

Unfortunately it does seem like dummy parses are how ZOS determines Templar's value. Doesn’t help the forums go berserk everytime the so-called “healer class” does any damage.

Eedat

Husan wrote: »

Everything what you've written is of course true, recently playing mag sorc and it just makes me sad how much better it is in every role. But you haven't even touched upon my two biggest pet peeves regarding templars.
1. meme ultimates, none are worth slotting using at the moment. We only slot aedric spear ultimate for the passive, which brings me to my next point:
2. meme passives. Burning light gutted, yeah, but have you had a look at some of the other passives? Objectively they are half the strength of comparable passives from other classes. Where is the standardization when it benefits templars, ZOS? Ritual of retribution is nerfed because it did does too many things yet arctic blast exists?

Errr I play many classes and I'm not sure what you mean. Templar is probably the easiest DPS in the game. Magplar I have no trouble hitting 90k while I top out at just under 90k on Magsorc on my best parses. Magplar are also practically unkillable thanks to their main DPS tool also healing them. They are probably the easiest class for soloing content. Stamplar is even easier dps. I leveled a stamplar last week. I spent just three hours practicing with it this weekend and hit 101k. It's ridiculously easy. The AoE damage is also very high without sacrificing single target. Compared to my Magsorc dps at about 90k which I've been playing for years.

Templars are a bit lacking in the tank department but are excellent healers and dps. Being strong in two roles and mediocre in the third isn't what I would consider bad and there is no way I would consider calling them 'worse than sorc in every way'. That's a crazy over exaggeration.

robpr

While I agree that Templar need some tweaks, I'm gonna nitpick about comparing Prism to Mountain Blessing.
Magplar (and Stamplar) cast Purifying Light every 5s, virtually being able to proc this passive off it's 6s cooldown. MagDK's only damaging ability in Earthen Heart is Eruption, very expensive skill with 18s duration. StamDK can get away with this using Poopfist, but MagDK cant even use their passives to full potential. It's a great oversight for an ult gen passive on a class that their sustain relies on casting expensive ult in most part.

pklemming

I have a LOT of Templars. Templar tank andSstamplar I am fine with, but Magplar is feeling very underwhelming right now. I am still sticking with it cos I like my Templars, but getting harder and harder to keep up in trials over the recent patches.

The nerf to Burning Light, Purifying Light and Ritual of Retribution really hurt us and basically made us not needed in trials(unless you want to play a healer, and I suck at healing).

It would be nice if we can get it looked at and balanced a tad.

Also, just stop trying to balance PVE and PVP, you are just annoying one group of people, or another. Just allow differing rules, and tooltips for PVE and PVP zones, then you could balance to each type of content. Lot of work, yes, but would stop the impossible task of balancing two game types on multiple classes.

Joy_Division

Eedat wrote: »

Husan wrote: »

Everything what you've written is of course true, recently playing mag sorc and it just makes me sad how much better it is in every role. But you haven't even touched upon my two biggest pet peeves regarding templars.
1. meme ultimates, none are worth slotting using at the moment. We only slot aedric spear ultimate for the passive, which brings me to my next point:
2. meme passives. Burning light gutted, yeah, but have you had a look at some of the other passives? Objectively they are half the strength of comparable passives from other classes. Where is the standardization when it benefits templars, ZOS? Ritual of retribution is nerfed because it did does too many things yet arctic blast exists?

Errr I play many classes and I'm not sure what you mean. Templar is probably the easiest DPS in the game. Magplar I have no trouble hitting 90k while I top out at just under 90k on Magsorc on my best parses. Magplar are also practically unkillable thanks to their main DPS tool also healing them. They are probably the easiest class for soloing content. Stamplar is even easier dps. I leveled a stamplar last week. I spent just three hours practicing with it this weekend and hit 101k. It's ridiculously easy. The AoE damage is also very high without sacrificing single target. Compared to my Magsorc dps at about 90k which I've been playing for years.

Templars are a bit lacking in the tank department but are excellent healers and dps. Being strong in two roles and mediocre in the third isn't what I would consider bad and there is no way I would consider calling them 'worse than sorc in every way'. That's a crazy over exaggeration.

There is actually playing ESO and then there is target dummy humping.