Bad Dps in Dungeons

MrBrownstone

Yes there are threads about this already but i want to draw attention to a different point.

Yesterday i random queued into veteran Imperial City Prison. Then immediately seen a votekick for the other dd. I asked why, they said "12k hp". Why people can't bother with pointing others' mistakes? It takes zero effort. I voted no and gave that cp400 guy some food. He had no idea about food buffs. Later on he kept standing still and snipe spamming, even the immune boss. Others insisted on kicking. I took my time and typed a very detailed explanation on why he's getting kicked and how he isn't ready for veteran content, that he should improve. Then i had to accept the vote.

People are not gonna figure out themselves what's wrong. You can't just kick someone and hope for them to get better at the game. I'm not telling you to help others with everything, like rotation, builds, skills etc, i don't do that, that's accessible information with a simple Google search. But at least let them know what's the problem. Kicking someone without even letting them know why is very rude. The game teaches nothing and new players are supposed to learn from old players. Just communicate more.

LalMirchi

Unfortunately the game itself does not have mechanisms that would teach players to handle such situations.

I would like to see tutorial quests that prepare the player.

mobicera

I have tried this many times.
Tried to offer advice, tried to help.
People would just go on rants, going insane about elitist ruining the game how I shouldn't be in dungeons.
About how I should kill myself.
All because I tried to offer advice.
It honestly got so bad that I have had to block people.
Now I know its not going to be everyone, but it happened so frequently that I simply lost the will and desire to help.
I mean you offer advice about layering dots using a spamable and they start screaming at you like you killed a kitten telling you that you need to die, kill yourself etc, why just why would I want to help anyone?
At this point I don't pug and if I do instead of helping or kicking I simply drop.

MrBrownstone

Just tell them that they are not doing enough damage, don't try to teach them or argue. Yes many noobs are also arrogant.

Muttsmutt

MrBrownstone wrote: »

I'm not telling you to help others with everything, like rotation, builds, skills etc, i don't do that, that's accessible information with a simple Google search.

MrBrownstone wrote: »

cp400 guy had no idea about food buffs

MrBrownstone wrote: »

that's accessible information with a simple Google search

that aside,

MrBrownstone wrote: »

least let them know what's the problem.

i agree with this & consider it basic human decency.

Rikkadir

One of the reasons why I don't find dungeons enjoyable.
Just completed 'Blackheart Haven' for Glirion. Never done the dungeon before and got lost a few times due to others thinking it was a race and left me stranded. Oh for some group mates who would just walk through a dungeon, please.

People forget that this is a game, and if a new player is not up to scratch, then so what.

ZOS_ConnorG

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Araneae6537

I am always grateful for those who take the time to share knowledge with me, even when at times it has been given rather exasperatedly; I try to see it from their perspective and politely accept advice / instruction and do better, or at least what is wanted for this group even if not objectively or always “better.” I’m not saying I accept disrespectful behavior, but thankfully that has been the minority.

I also try not to be a burden and enter content I don’t think I’m ready for and when it has happened on occasion, I speak up and offer to leave myself if they would prefer to find another healer or dps as the case may be. Usually people say it is no problem and are instead quite helpful.

hexentb16_ESO

Yea its pretty annoying.

SilverBride

I've been afraid to queue even for normal dungeons for fear that I would be looked down upon or kicked. I have some decent gear, but not bis. I mostly follow a reputable build and rotation but have tweaked it slightly to make it more fun. I enchant my gear and use food buffs. But I still lacked confidence that I'd be good enough.

Then yesterday I soloed a couple of basic dungeons. I almost gave up on one boss but stuck with it, and once I figured out her mechanics I was able to succeed. Because of this I'm going to queue today and see how it goes.

I guess what I'm trying to say is normal dungeon groups should be more forgiving of players they don't think are performing up to par. They need time to learn, and can only learn through experience. Yes, give advice but don't belittle them.

However vet dungeons are a different story. If a player queues for a vet dungeon they better be prepared for it. If they aren't and get kicked that is on them.

Pevey

SilverBride wrote: »

I've been afraid to queue even for normal dungeons for fear that I would be looked down upon or kicked. I have some decent gear, but not bis. I mostly follow a reputable build and rotation but have tweaked it slightly to make it more fun. I enchant my gear and use food buffs. But I still lacked confidence that I'd be good enough.

Then yesterday I soloed a couple of basic dungeons. I almost gave up on one boss but stuck with it, and once I figured out her mechanics I was able to succeed. Because of this I'm going to queue today and see how it goes.

I guess what I'm trying to say is normal dungeon groups should be more forgiving of players they don't think are performing up to par. They need time to learn, and can only learn through experience. Yes, give advice but don't belittle them.

However vet dungeons are a different story. If a player queues for a vet dungeon they better be prepared for it. If they aren't and get kicked that is on them.

The people on the forums are not a good representation of what to expect in general when you do a dungeon. I’ve used group finder countless times, and 98% of the time, people don’t even say anything in chat or try to kick anyone. They just go in and get the job done, whether your dps is 1k or 100k. I’ve carried many groups in normal dungeons or easy vet dungeons as a hybrid dps/tank (I’m not “fake,” get over yourselves), and who cares. It gets done in 10 minutes instead of 8 minutes, or whatever. It would take much longer than 2 minutes to try to kick and replace a bad player. And why be that person and spread that negativity. Just do the carry. Most people are chill, don’t be scared off because of the other players. Vet dlc dungeons are a whole different thing, I don’t try to pug those generally.

Eedat

LalMirchi wrote: »

Unfortunately the game itself does not have mechanisms that would teach players to handle such situations.

I would like to see tutorial quests that prepare the player.

That wouldn't fix anything tbh. There is already an insane amount of information available to players on sites and youtube. People who can't be bothered to spend 15 minutes looking into a build or skills are going to ignore the information if it's in the game as well.

PizzaCat82

The problem is that this stuff shouldn't be a footnote in a tutorial or youtube video somewhere.

These things should be drilled into EVERYONE's head in the game, from the starting zones to Vet trials.

The fact that you can get so far in the game spamming light attacks on white gear with no food isn't the problem, its that the game is completely different for dungeons, world bosses, and trials.

Make mechanics part of every quest. Make food easy to get, easy to eat, and make the game bug you if you aren't using it. My car tells me when my seatbelts not on. A video game can tell people when they need food.

Another thing is skills, Attrbs, CP, its all a mystery that is more likely to hobble the average player who doesn't look up good guides rather than help.

Jaimeh

I agree about communication, and I always offer tips, and tell people who are obviously new to a dungeon how a mechanic works, or some advice after the fight for future reference, and usually people are receptive and respect that you take time to share any knowledge. Some reply with 'stfu' and similar flowery comments and hostility, and then continue to wipe to the same mechanic, so it depends on the player. However, communication goes both ways, someone like that player in your example, OP, should have spoken up about being unfamiliar with a dungeon (and perhaps new to vet dungeons in general). I remember when I first learned dungeons, I asked left and right, and always admitted not knowing how something works (or how my role should approach a fight, if I needed a particular skill etc.). You can offer all the explanations you like, but if someone doesn't want to hear it or doesn't want to improve, it will fall on deaf ears.

shimm

Vet elden hollow this morning... our group was shaky, one of the dps had really low health but we made it through. On the final boss, the tank rushed in and started attacking the final boss. About a quarter into the boss’ health bar, the tank disengaged and left the boss room and went to the room before the boss room and stood there for the rest of the fight. No explanation as to what upset them or why.

Communicate good and bad, your group mates may not be mindreaders.

Weesacs

PuG groups could have an MMR system similar to BGs:

- The experienced players get grouped.
- the non experienced players get grouped.

The experienced players get through quickly. The non experienced players take their time and have to learn the dungeon.

Obviously there are downsides to this but it may make the group matching better for those involved.

thegreat_one

Elder scrolls has always been a single player experience.
Grouping may not be first in mind to some people. And group finder probably has a lot of people who are not guilded or just want the exp and don't care about numbers.... or role XD

CP 400 and not knowing what food is tho, That is a real head scratcher

Jeremy

mobicera wrote: »

I have tried this many times.
Tried to offer advice, tried to help.
People would just go on rants, going insane about elitist ruining the game how I shouldn't be in dungeons.
About how I should kill myself.
All because I tried to offer advice.
It honestly got so bad that I have had to block people.
Now I know its not going to be everyone, but it happened so frequently that I simply lost the will and desire to help.
I mean you offer advice about layering dots using a spamable and they start screaming at you like you killed a kitten telling you that you need to die, kill yourself etc, why just why would I want to help anyone?
At this point I don't pug and if I do instead of helping or kicking I simply drop.

Giving people advice sounds like the noble thing to do. But when put into actual practice it often backfires and leads to nasty confrontations. So I don't blame people for staying quiet.

RageKing

shimm wrote: »

Vet elden hollow this morning... our group was shaky, one of the dps had really low health but we made it through. On the final boss, the tank rushed in and started attacking the final boss. About a quarter into the boss’ health bar, the tank disengaged and left the boss room and went to the room before the boss room and stood there for the rest of the fight. No explanation as to what upset them or why.

Communicate good and bad, your group mates may not be mindreaders.

and you guys didnt kick him?

RageKing

today vICP had a cp 1700 dps pulling around 8k. after first boss i aksed him how much he paid for his acocunt. group started laughing. he said he is normally a healer trying a new build. His new build was spamming snipe and light attacking with bow. we told him we wouldnt be able to finish the dungeon if he didnt increase his dps. he didnt say anything, got to second boss and jsame crap so we ust kicked him.

He whispered me that i should be more open to other peoples playstyles and be a better person then blocked me.

Im starting to care less and less about hurting peoples feelings because of people like this who just seem to refuse to want to get better and insist on being carried

Orange_fire_dragon

They could add practice mode to dungeons, the run gives you no loot but it lets you experiment with mechanics without penalty from dying over and over.

And possibly you can activate an object somewhere nearby that gives you hints about the boss.

However, these practice modes should not be added to DLC content or Trials that have been just released, after a month or so the new stuff gets the practice mode.

Ezhh

MrBrownstone wrote: »

Just communicate more.

I have to agree with the original posters sentiments that communications and attitudes are the real problem.

I've been queuing on a healer who is set up to deal decent damage, and in pug groups I am overjoyed if I do less than 50% of the dps. It happens on some runs, but usually... well, low dps is the reason my healer is set up to also kill things.If pugging I am fine with working with whatever I get. I'm ready to explain things to anyone who needs help while doing more than my share for the group, because we all had to start somewhere... but sadly the experience is almost always negative.

To give a sadly not unique example, just now I did vet Direfrost. One DD never moved from the door and said nothing, so half way through we kicked them. A new DD joined the group just in time for the last boss. He would not break free when the boss targeted him, so the boss would heal and this DD died constantly. We revived him each time, but he then raged at the tank for "not taunting"... I explained the tank can't prevent that attack and he needed to break free... But more all caps rage. Then he left the group, messaged me "stop telling me how to play", and I assume blocked me because I could not send a reply.

I have a lot of patience, but this kind of thing is normal. So far doing dungeons for this event has just taught me that trying to help people gets me yelled at and insulted. So instead of just "communicate more" I would hope people can learn to "communicate better" as well.

eovogtb16_ESO

Ive seen this mentioned a few times. what they really need to do is some sort of statistics screen at the end of the dungeons that shows how much damage % you actually did or something. It would really open a lot of peoples eyes to how hard they are getting carried in vet content and hopefully make them want to improve as players.

SteamKitten01

MrBrownstone wrote: »

Yesterday i random queued into veteran Imperial City Prison. Then immediately seen a votekick for the other dd. I asked why, they said "12k hp". Why people can't bother with pointing others' mistakes? It takes zero effort. I voted no and gave that cp400 guy some food. He had no idea about food buffs. Later on he kept standing still and snipe spamming, even the immune boss. Others insisted on kicking.

If someone has no idea about food buffs, they have no business in a vet DLC dungeon. I would expect anyone who queues to do a VET dlc, even an easier one like ICP to at least have a basic rotation and know about food and potion buffs. If someone doesn't know about food buffs, it's very unlikely that they'll know about any dungeon mechanics or be willing to listen to you explain the mecs and they'll likely be spending a good portion of the dungeon dead.

I've tried everything with this type of player. I've given them food, which they'll accept but then refuse to use despite me practically begging them to eat what I gave them. I've taken the time to type out and explain mechanics only to have them rush in and agro the boss while I'm explaining things, wipe, and then agro the boss again while I'm still only half-way through telling them what they need to know. And then when they do die, they start yelling in chat about how you need to stop whatever you're doing and rez them immediately only for them to die again 5 seconds later. After so many attempts, you eventually give up trying to help these people.

Of course all of the above is just for vet. If it's a normal dungeon, it's fine for people to not yet know about sets, food, or rotations but if you're moving on to vet dungeons, you should have a minimum amount of skill and knowledge when it comes to combat. Don't be the DPS that once whispered me in the middle of vet Volenfell asking how to do a heavy attack.

zaria

eovogtb16_ESO wrote: »

Ive seen this mentioned a few times. what they really need to do is some sort of statistics screen at the end of the dungeons that shows how much damage % you actually did or something. It would really open a lot of peoples eyes to how hard they are getting carried in vet content and hopefully make them want to improve as players.

Combat metric is nice here, it shows total and your dps, now it can be an bit misleading on add rich fights as is shows dps on targets you hits so if other DD focus on adds while you only do boss or opposite your dps will be inflated, also dps from healer who can be substantial if DD with heals or fake.

Galarthor

How do you make it to CP400 without knowing about the existence of buff food?

As for "hoping they get better" - there are tonnes of guides out there. No need for 3 people to waste precious time if the other person cannot be bothered to invest some time to learn the basics of the game. DOn't get me wrong, I don't expect people to know the dungeon when they queue for normal mode. But i expect the to know to move out of AoEs and to be able to use more than 1 or 2 abilities.

There are plenty of opportunities to learn these skills, such as questing for example. Don't be inconsiderate and purposefully steal other people's time.

And what @mobicera said!

Sergykid

ignorance is worse than lack of information. I often find people that do not accept food from me because "they don't need", and i often find max level people that just spam click and when i ask how they reached this level but know nothing about the game they say "i just quest". Even if i bother to explain the importance of giving your interest in group content, otherwise you're just dead weight being carried, i get replies like "i play like i want" and stuff like this. Play like you want but in normal version of the dungeon. Veteran requires some interest from your side.

idk

ESO has a greater gap between low and high DPS than I have seen in any MMORPG which is problematic for players that have no idea what they are doing. My guess is that really low dps players are either solo players and do not run with guilds, probably due to not understanding the benefit of a guild, or they choose to create their own fun build and as a result choose to be bad players. I have seen and known those players who choose to be mediocre and have everyone else carry them.

Years ago, well before ESO launched, I was the former. I leveled up my first character in an MMORPG and wanted to run group dungeons. A group needed a healer so I respected to a healer build but never had healed before. LOL. we never got past the first boss because I had no idea how to use my skills. Soon after I joined a guild, they explained what I needed to do for a good DPS build, later started healing, and became a decent player.

Joining the guild, getting feedback, discussing aspects of the game, and regularly playing with a group of people made a significant difference.

Thechuckage

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

The problem is that this stuff shouldn't be a footnote in a tutorial or youtube video somewhere.

These things should be drilled into EVERYONE's head in the game, from the starting zones to Vet trials.

The fact that you can get so far in the game spamming light attacks on white gear with no food isn't the problem, its that the game is completely different for dungeons, world bosses, and trials.

Make mechanics part of every quest. Make food easy to get, easy to eat, and make the game bug you if you aren't using it. My car tells me when my seatbelts not on. A video game can tell people when they need food.

Another thing is skills, Attrbs, CP, its all a mystery that is more likely to hobble the average player who doesn't look up good guides rather than help.

Exactly this. The vast majority of games continue to increase in difficulty while giving you the tools to deal with it. Doom - more enemies, bigger boomsticks.
Strategy - units designed to counteract enemy units.
Any other MMO - Harder content that makes you utilize the entire toolkit.

When the vast majority of overworld gets turned into a tutorial zone, with anything dangerous cordoned off and clearly marked, its it really any wonder that people are unprepared for dungeons?

The game spends hours showing you how to slaughter overworld with little to no effort, not how to effectively use your character.

renne

Thechuckage wrote: »

When the vast majority of overworld gets turned into a tutorial zone, with anything dangerous cordoned off and clearly marked, its it really any wonder that people are unprepared for dungeons?

This is what normal dungeons are for. Except then you get heroes queuing as fake tanks and fake healers on their DDs so they can run through the dungeons as fast as possible, claiming they're doing it to "help" the other people in there by getting it done fast like that's literally all anyone wants if they go into a normal dungeon. Then those bad dps players who end up getting carried don't learn anything except to assume they're better than they actually are because most of them don't even realise they've been carried.

And to be fair, even competent dps can contribute to this problem, tbh, but at least they're in there honestly, and sometimes you just don't want to do a vet dungeon.

eovogtb16_ESO

I know combat metrics is a thing. It should be part of the base game. My dps was terrible until I downloaded cmx and saw how bad I was then I improved and now parse consistently 90k