Ring of the Pale Order:
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Faiza✭✭✭✭✭Feels like too strong for soloing, while I dislike calling p2w to things you need to go through content to get, when the alternatives are that much worse, I will call it p2w. This ring is p2w.
Then again, what does it matter. Game ain't working anyway.
To me, it's not P2W unless you absolutely cannot progress without it. Lots of people solo content without the ring, and while the ring may make improvements to what they're already doing, not having the ring is also not impeding anyone from soloing.
Of course you can progress without it... But compare it to the alternatives available, iceheart for example. You lose a monster set, for 5k shield every 6 seconds, while the ring easily dishes out 5k heal per second, if not more. I know that survivability wise, nothing comes close to it, it is trice as strong as the pre-nerfed iceheart (that was nerfed because it was "too good at what it does", lol). How strong does the ring have to be for you to count it as p2w?
Again, I don't like to call it p2w, but it is way too strong.
I'm sure it is very strong, but I think P2W is a stretch considering that, while yes you have to own Greymoor, you absolutely are working for the rest. It's not like purchasing an item on the crown store lol.
I started farming the pieces for it tonight, actually, and everything dropped fairly quickly except the portion in Bad Man's Hollow. I spent several hours running a path competing with other players (mind you I do have Ring of the Wild Hunt and Coward's Gear, so we're talking hundreds of rotations per hour) and....
drumroll please
No ring!!! 😂😂😂
So you see, I paid and am not winning. Thus this system cannot be P2W. I rest my case lol.
Edit: plus you gotta factor in the time it took initially to even level the 2 antiquity skill lines.Edited by Faiza on November 25, 2020 4:53AM3 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DislikeFeels like too strong for soloing, while I dislike calling p2w to things you need to go through content to get, when the alternatives are that much worse, I will call it p2w. This ring is p2w.
Then again, what does it matter. Game ain't working anyway.
To me, it's not P2W unless you absolutely cannot progress without it. Lots of people solo content without the ring, and while the ring may make improvements to what they're already doing, not having the ring is also not impeding anyone from soloing.
Of course you can progress without it... But compare it to the alternatives available, iceheart for example. You lose a monster set, for 5k shield every 6 seconds, while the ring easily dishes out 5k heal per second, if not more. I know that survivability wise, nothing comes close to it, it is trice as strong as the pre-nerfed iceheart (that was nerfed because it was "too good at what it does", lol). How strong does the ring have to be for you to count it as p2w?
Again, I don't like to call it p2w, but it is way too strong.
I'm sure it is very strong, but I think P2W is a stretch considering that, while yes you have to own Greymoor, you absolutely are working for the rest. It's not like purchasing an item on the crown store lol.
I started farming the pieces for it tonight, actually, and everything dropped fairly quickly except the portion in Bad Man's Hollow. I spent several hours running a path competing with other players (mind you I do have Ring of the Wild Hunt and Coward's Gear, so we're talking hundreds of rotations per hour) and....
drumroll please
No ring!!! 😂😂😂
So you see, I paid and am not winning. Thus this system cannot be P2W. I rest my case lol.
Edit: plus you gotta factor in the time it took initially to even level the 2 antiquity skill lines.
Yes we already exchanged our point of views on it. But you didn't answer me yet, How strong does the ring have to be for you to count it as p2w?Edited by zvavi on November 25, 2020 4:57AM0 -
Faiza✭✭✭✭✭Feels like too strong for soloing, while I dislike calling p2w to things you need to go through content to get, when the alternatives are that much worse, I will call it p2w. This ring is p2w.
Then again, what does it matter. Game ain't working anyway.
To me, it's not P2W unless you absolutely cannot progress without it. Lots of people solo content without the ring, and while the ring may make improvements to what they're already doing, not having the ring is also not impeding anyone from soloing.
Of course you can progress without it... But compare it to the alternatives available, iceheart for example. You lose a monster set, for 5k shield every 6 seconds, while the ring easily dishes out 5k heal per second, if not more. I know that survivability wise, nothing comes close to it, it is trice as strong as the pre-nerfed iceheart (that was nerfed because it was "too good at what it does", lol). How strong does the ring have to be for you to count it as p2w?
Again, I don't like to call it p2w, but it is way too strong.
I'm sure it is very strong, but I think P2W is a stretch considering that, while yes you have to own Greymoor, you absolutely are working for the rest. It's not like purchasing an item on the crown store lol.
I started farming the pieces for it tonight, actually, and everything dropped fairly quickly except the portion in Bad Man's Hollow. I spent several hours running a path competing with other players (mind you I do have Ring of the Wild Hunt and Coward's Gear, so we're talking hundreds of rotations per hour) and....
drumroll please
No ring!!! 😂😂😂
So you see, I paid and am not winning. Thus this system cannot be P2W. I rest my case lol.
Edit: plus you gotta factor in the time it took initially to even level the 2 antiquity skill lines.
Yes we already exchanged our point of views on it. But you didn't answer me yet, How strong does the ring have to be for you to count it as p2w?
I don't understand this logic...is vet gear from Kyne's Aegis also P2W? Because...you also have to own the DLC to get that as well.
By your logic, anything gained from any of the DLC chapters, no matter the time you invested to earn it, is P2W. And that is not typically how that term is applied.Edited by Faiza on November 25, 2020 5:08AM11 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DislikeFeels like too strong for soloing, while I dislike calling p2w to things you need to go through content to get, when the alternatives are that much worse, I will call it p2w. This ring is p2w.
Then again, what does it matter. Game ain't working anyway.
To me, it's not P2W unless you absolutely cannot progress without it. Lots of people solo content without the ring, and while the ring may make improvements to what they're already doing, not having the ring is also not impeding anyone from soloing.
Of course you can progress without it... But compare it to the alternatives available, iceheart for example. You lose a monster set, for 5k shield every 6 seconds, while the ring easily dishes out 5k heal per second, if not more. I know that survivability wise, nothing comes close to it, it is trice as strong as the pre-nerfed iceheart (that was nerfed because it was "too good at what it does", lol). How strong does the ring have to be for you to count it as p2w?
Again, I don't like to call it p2w, but it is way too strong.
I'm sure it is very strong, but I think P2W is a stretch considering that, while yes you have to own Greymoor, you absolutely are working for the rest. It's not like purchasing an item on the crown store lol.
I started farming the pieces for it tonight, actually, and everything dropped fairly quickly except the portion in Bad Man's Hollow. I spent several hours running a path competing with other players (mind you I do have Ring of the Wild Hunt and Coward's Gear, so we're talking hundreds of rotations per hour) and....
drumroll please
No ring!!! 😂😂😂
So you see, I paid and am not winning. Thus this system cannot be P2W. I rest my case lol.
Edit: plus you gotta factor in the time it took initially to even level the 2 antiquity skill lines.
Yes we already exchanged our point of views on it. But you didn't answer me yet, How strong does the ring have to be for you to count it as p2w?
I don't understand this logic...is vet gear from Kyne's Aegis also P2W? Because...you also have to own the DLC to get that as well.
By your logic, anything gained from any of the DLC chapters, no matter the time you invested to earn it, is P2W. And that is not typically how that term is applied.
You are missing/ignoring an entire argument I am making. Compared to the alternatives. If mythic item is introduced, and it says "negate all damage below 20k" will you still not call it p2w?
Perfected siroria, zaan, veli, all these are good, but not broken compared to the alternatives. Ring of pale order? Is broken compared to the only alternative (iceheart).
Ps by your definition craftbag and skill lines in crown store are p2w.0 -
Faiza✭✭✭✭✭Feels like too strong for soloing, while I dislike calling p2w to things you need to go through content to get, when the alternatives are that much worse, I will call it p2w. This ring is p2w.
Then again, what does it matter. Game ain't working anyway.
To me, it's not P2W unless you absolutely cannot progress without it. Lots of people solo content without the ring, and while the ring may make improvements to what they're already doing, not having the ring is also not impeding anyone from soloing.
Of course you can progress without it... But compare it to the alternatives available, iceheart for example. You lose a monster set, for 5k shield every 6 seconds, while the ring easily dishes out 5k heal per second, if not more. I know that survivability wise, nothing comes close to it, it is trice as strong as the pre-nerfed iceheart (that was nerfed because it was "too good at what it does", lol). How strong does the ring have to be for you to count it as p2w?
Again, I don't like to call it p2w, but it is way too strong.
I'm sure it is very strong, but I think P2W is a stretch considering that, while yes you have to own Greymoor, you absolutely are working for the rest. It's not like purchasing an item on the crown store lol.
I started farming the pieces for it tonight, actually, and everything dropped fairly quickly except the portion in Bad Man's Hollow. I spent several hours running a path competing with other players (mind you I do have Ring of the Wild Hunt and Coward's Gear, so we're talking hundreds of rotations per hour) and....
drumroll please
No ring!!! 😂😂😂
So you see, I paid and am not winning. Thus this system cannot be P2W. I rest my case lol.
Edit: plus you gotta factor in the time it took initially to even level the 2 antiquity skill lines.
Yes we already exchanged our point of views on it. But you didn't answer me yet, How strong does the ring have to be for you to count it as p2w?
I don't understand this logic...is vet gear from Kyne's Aegis also P2W? Because...you also have to own the DLC to get that as well.
By your logic, anything gained from any of the DLC chapters, no matter the time you invested to earn it, is P2W. And that is not typically how that term is applied.
You are missing/ignoring an entire argument I am making. Compared to the alternatives. If mythic item is introduced, and it says "negate all damage below 20k" will you still not call it p2w?
Perfected siroria, zaan, veli, all these are good, but not broken compared to the alternatives. Ring of pale order? Is broken compared to the only alternative (iceheart).
Ps by your definition craftbag and skill lines in crown store are p2w.
No, those items are pay for convenience.
Just because it's currently the strongest item available doesnt make it pay 2 win. You have to work for all of those things. There's nothing you can buy on the crown store that is going to negate the work you put in to earn those items.
Even if the ring were to give an unfair advantage (which it doesnt) it would just be that...an unfair advantage.
Thats not P2W though. P2W has a very specific meaning and I'm not trying to be insulting in the slighest when I say it doesnt seem like you know what that is.Edited by Faiza on November 25, 2020 5:24AM7 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DislikeFeels like too strong for soloing, while I dislike calling p2w to things you need to go through content to get, when the alternatives are that much worse, I will call it p2w. This ring is p2w.
Then again, what does it matter. Game ain't working anyway.
To me, it's not P2W unless you absolutely cannot progress without it. Lots of people solo content without the ring, and while the ring may make improvements to what they're already doing, not having the ring is also not impeding anyone from soloing.
Of course you can progress without it... But compare it to the alternatives available, iceheart for example. You lose a monster set, for 5k shield every 6 seconds, while the ring easily dishes out 5k heal per second, if not more. I know that survivability wise, nothing comes close to it, it is trice as strong as the pre-nerfed iceheart (that was nerfed because it was "too good at what it does", lol). How strong does the ring have to be for you to count it as p2w?
Again, I don't like to call it p2w, but it is way too strong.
I'm sure it is very strong, but I think P2W is a stretch considering that, while yes you have to own Greymoor, you absolutely are working for the rest. It's not like purchasing an item on the crown store lol.
I started farming the pieces for it tonight, actually, and everything dropped fairly quickly except the portion in Bad Man's Hollow. I spent several hours running a path competing with other players (mind you I do have Ring of the Wild Hunt and Coward's Gear, so we're talking hundreds of rotations per hour) and....
drumroll please
No ring!!! 😂😂😂
So you see, I paid and am not winning. Thus this system cannot be P2W. I rest my case lol.
Edit: plus you gotta factor in the time it took initially to even level the 2 antiquity skill lines.
Yes we already exchanged our point of views on it. But you didn't answer me yet, How strong does the ring have to be for you to count it as p2w?
I don't understand this logic...is vet gear from Kyne's Aegis also P2W? Because...you also have to own the DLC to get that as well.
By your logic, anything gained from any of the DLC chapters, no matter the time you invested to earn it, is P2W. And that is not typically how that term is applied.
You are missing/ignoring an entire argument I am making. Compared to the alternatives. If mythic item is introduced, and it says "negate all damage below 20k" will you still not call it p2w?
Perfected siroria, zaan, veli, all these are good, but not broken compared to the alternatives. Ring of pale order? Is broken compared to the only alternative (iceheart).
Ps by your definition craftbag and skill lines in crown store are p2w.
No, those items are pay for convenience.
Just because it's currently the strongest item available doesnt make it pay 2 win. You have to work for all of those things. There's nothing you can buy on the crown store that is going to negate the work you put in to earn those items.
Even if the ring were to give an unfair advantage (which it doesnt) it would just be that...an unfair advantage.
Thats not P2W though. P2W has a very specific meaning and I'm not trying to be insulting in the slighest when I say it doesnt seem like you know what that is.
Let's agree to disagree then
because P2W means that paying members have a significant advantage over f2p ones. (Which in low lvl bg's means skill lines) (and for crafters it means craftbag) (and for solo players, it means ring of the wild Hunt). 1 -
Faiza✭✭✭✭✭Feels like too strong for soloing, while I dislike calling p2w to things you need to go through content to get, when the alternatives are that much worse, I will call it p2w. This ring is p2w.
Then again, what does it matter. Game ain't working anyway.
To me, it's not P2W unless you absolutely cannot progress without it. Lots of people solo content without the ring, and while the ring may make improvements to what they're already doing, not having the ring is also not impeding anyone from soloing.
Of course you can progress without it... But compare it to the alternatives available, iceheart for example. You lose a monster set, for 5k shield every 6 seconds, while the ring easily dishes out 5k heal per second, if not more. I know that survivability wise, nothing comes close to it, it is trice as strong as the pre-nerfed iceheart (that was nerfed because it was "too good at what it does", lol). How strong does the ring have to be for you to count it as p2w?
Again, I don't like to call it p2w, but it is way too strong.
I'm sure it is very strong, but I think P2W is a stretch considering that, while yes you have to own Greymoor, you absolutely are working for the rest. It's not like purchasing an item on the crown store lol.
I started farming the pieces for it tonight, actually, and everything dropped fairly quickly except the portion in Bad Man's Hollow. I spent several hours running a path competing with other players (mind you I do have Ring of the Wild Hunt and Coward's Gear, so we're talking hundreds of rotations per hour) and....
drumroll please
No ring!!! 😂😂😂
So you see, I paid and am not winning. Thus this system cannot be P2W. I rest my case lol.
Edit: plus you gotta factor in the time it took initially to even level the 2 antiquity skill lines.
Yes we already exchanged our point of views on it. But you didn't answer me yet, How strong does the ring have to be for you to count it as p2w?
I don't understand this logic...is vet gear from Kyne's Aegis also P2W? Because...you also have to own the DLC to get that as well.
By your logic, anything gained from any of the DLC chapters, no matter the time you invested to earn it, is P2W. And that is not typically how that term is applied.
You are missing/ignoring an entire argument I am making. Compared to the alternatives. If mythic item is introduced, and it says "negate all damage below 20k" will you still not call it p2w?
Perfected siroria, zaan, veli, all these are good, but not broken compared to the alternatives. Ring of pale order? Is broken compared to the only alternative (iceheart).
Ps by your definition craftbag and skill lines in crown store are p2w.
No, those items are pay for convenience.
Just because it's currently the strongest item available doesnt make it pay 2 win. You have to work for all of those things. There's nothing you can buy on the crown store that is going to negate the work you put in to earn those items.
Even if the ring were to give an unfair advantage (which it doesnt) it would just be that...an unfair advantage.
Thats not P2W though. P2W has a very specific meaning and I'm not trying to be insulting in the slighest when I say it doesnt seem like you know what that is.
Let's agree to disagree then because P2W means that paying members have a significant advantage over f2p ones. (Which in low lvl bg's means skill lines) (and for crafters it means craftbag) (and for solo players, it means ring of the wild Hunt).
You're not awarded with those items for paying though. You have to work to level those skill lines, and work to earn high level items by doing high level content. Simply owning the content isn't P2W.
And work to earn mythic antiquities by leveling multiple skill lines, completing multiple story related quests, farming in multiple places and dungeons for hours at a time for each one potentially due to RNG lol. That is not P2W.
Just purchasing the DLC does not award you with any of those things.
And not having those things will not prevent you from completing any of the content that you have access to.
Also, in addition to all of this...a lot of players are reporting that this ring isnt even better than their current set up.Edited by Faiza on November 25, 2020 5:40AM6 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dislike
And not having those things will not prevent you from completing any of the content that you have access to.
Tell that to the whole discussion that says ring of the wild Hunt pale order carries you through vVH...You're not awarded with those items for paying though. You have to work to level those skill lines, and work to earn high level items by doing high level content. Simply owning the content isn't P2W.
Step 1, create new character, step 2, buy skill lines, step 3, level up ultimates+some skills, step 4, go bully people in low level battlegrounds. Ye. Not p2w at all.
You are literally paying, for an advantage.
yes I already understood that by the definition of a slang you use, even if they introduce god mode ring, as long as you have to do something for it (finish main quest for example, or just have a 5 minutes fight) it is not p2w because you had to additionally do something in addition to paying.And work to earn mythic antiquities by leveling multiple skill lines, completing multiple story related quests, farming in multiple places and dungeons for hours at a time for each one potentially due to RNG lol. That is not P2W.Edited by zvavi on November 25, 2020 6:10AM1 -
Faiza✭✭✭✭✭1.You can't buy skill lines that you haven't earned by playing through and leveling.
2. You are confusing Ring of the Wild Hunt with Ring of the Pale Order.
3. Ring of the Pale Order isn't teaching anyone mechanics, helping them grapple, or even increasing their base damage lol. They still have to do all of that on their own. It is an earned perk not a bought one.
4. How are skill lines like Psijic Order being used to bully players in BGs?
5. Everyone has access to ultimate abilities so not sure why you brought that up.
6. Ring of the Wild Hunt is a run speed increase. You might be able to sprint away with a relic faster, but you're going to get mauled by WWs just as hard as someone who doesn't have it.
7. Neither Wild Hunt nor Pale Order, or anything for that matter can be obtained "in just 5 minutes".
8. If a Necromancer beats me in a duel, is that P2W? 😂Edited by Faiza on November 25, 2020 6:06AM8 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dislike1.You can't buy skill lines that you haven't earned by playing through and leveling.
2. You are confusing Ring of the Wild Hunt with Ring of the Pale Order.
3. Ring of the Pale Order isn't teaching anyone mechanics, helping them grapple, or even increasing their base damage lol. They still have to do all of that on their own. It is an earned perk not a bought one.
4. How are skill lines like Psijic Order being used to bully players in BGs?
5. Everyone has access to ultimate abilities so not sure why you brought that up.
6. Ring of the Wild Hunt is a run speed increase. You might be able to sprint away with a relic faster, but you're going to get mauled by WWs just as hard as someone who doesn't have it.
1. You cant get full fighter's guild and mage guild consistently on a low level character.
2. Yes I did, apologies, meant pale order
3. It does increase damage, you have less GCD's you need to use resources for heals. Essentially getting more damage.
4. Not psijic. Mage and fighters mostly. Low levels lack a lot of skills+ passives, these skill lines are big advantage, especially since meteor helps bursting.
5. Ultimates from skill lines, you know, the ones you need 10/10 for? They are the major strength of buying the skill lines...
6. WWs are as strong exactly for the same reason buying skill lines is, it gives you skills to feel gaps of what you need. Ps dawnbreaker kills these wolves. And ye, sorry, meant pale order.1 -
Faiza✭✭✭✭✭1.You can't buy skill lines that you haven't earned by playing through and leveling.
2. You are confusing Ring of the Wild Hunt with Ring of the Pale Order.
3. Ring of the Pale Order isn't teaching anyone mechanics, helping them grapple, or even increasing their base damage lol. They still have to do all of that on their own. It is an earned perk not a bought one.
4. How are skill lines like Psijic Order being used to bully players in BGs?
5. Everyone has access to ultimate abilities so not sure why you brought that up.
6. Ring of the Wild Hunt is a run speed increase. You might be able to sprint away with a relic faster, but you're going to get mauled by WWs just as hard as someone who doesn't have it.
1. You cant get full fighter's guild and mage guild consistently on a low level character.
2. Yes I did, apologies, meant pale order
3. It does increase damage, you have less GCD's you need to use resources for heals. Essentially getting more damage.
4. Not psijic. Mage and fighters mostly. Low levels lack a lot of skills+ passives, these skill lines are big advantage, especially since meteor helps bursting.
5. Ultimates from skill lines, you know, the ones you need 10/10 for? They are the major strength of buying the skill lines...
6. WWs are as strong exactly for the same reason buying skill lines is, it gives you skills to feel gaps of what you need. Ps dawnbreaker kills these wolves. And ye, sorry, meant pale order.
Neither Mages guild or fighters guild require DLC or purchases to acquire. So again, not P2W.
WWs also not DLC or purchase related.
You can level mages guild in 1 day with addons that do not require a purchase.
You can level fighters guild in 1 day on the Alik'r dolmen train, no DLC or purchase required.
Also someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but purchasing skill lines only unlocks them, I'm pretty sure you still have to level them if you buy the vampire or ww skill line. You're not buying a maxed out skill.
Not to mention you still need the skill points and the skyshards to fill them out.
Plus there are level minimum level requirements for abilities, you can't max your skills out at lvl 15.
Edit: and since we're specifically talking about BGs at this point, I also want to point out that just having the skill lines doesn't equate to being skilled.
Source: I have every skill line and non-Alliance rank related skill point in the game...I am trash at pvp. If I buy a skill line for my alts tomorrow, that isn't going to teach me how to use the abilities effectively, how to counter other builds, or give me pvp gear with great stats.
Getting to the point where you can "bully" someone in pvp still takes a ton of time and practice. I do battlegrounds every day...and I'm still bad lmao. By your logic, I should be winning just because I have the skill lines. But it doesn't work like that.
Someone who only owns the base game and has never had ESO+ but knows how to pvp well is still going to wash me 😂Edited by Faiza on November 25, 2020 6:30AM7 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dislike1.You can't buy skill lines that you haven't earned by playing through and leveling.
2. You are confusing Ring of the Wild Hunt with Ring of the Pale Order.
3. Ring of the Pale Order isn't teaching anyone mechanics, helping them grapple, or even increasing their base damage lol. They still have to do all of that on their own. It is an earned perk not a bought one.
4. How are skill lines like Psijic Order being used to bully players in BGs?
5. Everyone has access to ultimate abilities so not sure why you brought that up.
6. Ring of the Wild Hunt is a run speed increase. You might be able to sprint away with a relic faster, but you're going to get mauled by WWs just as hard as someone who doesn't have it.
1. You cant get full fighter's guild and mage guild consistently on a low level character.
2. Yes I did, apologies, meant pale order
3. It does increase damage, you have less GCD's you need to use resources for heals. Essentially getting more damage.
4. Not psijic. Mage and fighters mostly. Low levels lack a lot of skills+ passives, these skill lines are big advantage, especially since meteor helps bursting.
5. Ultimates from skill lines, you know, the ones you need 10/10 for? They are the major strength of buying the skill lines...
6. WWs are as strong exactly for the same reason buying skill lines is, it gives you skills to feel gaps of what you need. Ps dawnbreaker kills these wolves. And ye, sorry, meant pale order.
Neither Mages guild or fighters guild require DLC or purchases to acquire. So again, not P2W.
WWs also not DLC or purchase related.
You can level mages guild in 1 day with addons that do not require a purchase.
You can level fighters guild in 1 day on the Alik'r dolmen train, no DLC or purchase required.
Also someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but purchasing skill lines only unlocks them, I'm pretty sure you still have to level them if you buy the vampire or ww skill line. You're not buying a maxed out skill.
Not to mention you still need the skill points and the skyshards to fill them out.
Plus there are level minimum level requirements for abilities, you can't max your skills out at lvl 15.
Edit: and since we're specifically talking about BGs at this point, I also want to point out that just having the skill lines doesn't equate to being skilled.
Source: I have every skill line and non-Alliance rank related skill point in the game...I am trash at pvp. If I buy a skill line for my alts tomorrow, that isn't going to teach me how to use the abilities effectively, how to counter other builds, or give me pvp gear with great stats.
Getting to the point where you can "bully" someone in pvp still takes a ton of time and practice. I do battlegrounds every day...and I'm still bad lmao. By your logic, I should be winning just because I have the skill lines. But it doesn't work like that.
Someone who only owns the base game and has never had ESO+ but knows how to pvp well is still going to wash me 😂
P2W means a significant advantage, not right away winning. All the by the book p2w games can still be grinded enough to defeat a player that payed but didn't play much.
Answer this question. If next chapter they introduce a ring, that negates all damage below 15k in pve, and you had to complete a 2 minutes quest for it, by your definition, it is not p2w, because:
1. You can still complete content without it.
2. You "earn it" and not straight away get it, therefore not p2w (2 minutes quest man!).
I assume we can agree that that ring will be p2w right? Now ask yourself, if the quest was 5 minutes, is it still p2w? What if 10? 20? 30?....600? What I am getting at is that there is a line somewhere between p2w and non p2w. Saying that it is not p2w because you had to grind it is wrong. Saying that the grind is long enough for it to not count as p2w is correct (as an opinion). In my opinion, the grind is definitely not long enough, since you can easily get it in a weekend (opposed to progressing a trial).1 -
Faiza✭✭✭✭✭1.You can't buy skill lines that you haven't earned by playing through and leveling.
2. You are confusing Ring of the Wild Hunt with Ring of the Pale Order.
3. Ring of the Pale Order isn't teaching anyone mechanics, helping them grapple, or even increasing their base damage lol. They still have to do all of that on their own. It is an earned perk not a bought one.
4. How are skill lines like Psijic Order being used to bully players in BGs?
5. Everyone has access to ultimate abilities so not sure why you brought that up.
6. Ring of the Wild Hunt is a run speed increase. You might be able to sprint away with a relic faster, but you're going to get mauled by WWs just as hard as someone who doesn't have it.
1. You cant get full fighter's guild and mage guild consistently on a low level character.
2. Yes I did, apologies, meant pale order
3. It does increase damage, you have less GCD's you need to use resources for heals. Essentially getting more damage.
4. Not psijic. Mage and fighters mostly. Low levels lack a lot of skills+ passives, these skill lines are big advantage, especially since meteor helps bursting.
5. Ultimates from skill lines, you know, the ones you need 10/10 for? They are the major strength of buying the skill lines...
6. WWs are as strong exactly for the same reason buying skill lines is, it gives you skills to feel gaps of what you need. Ps dawnbreaker kills these wolves. And ye, sorry, meant pale order.
Neither Mages guild or fighters guild require DLC or purchases to acquire. So again, not P2W.
WWs also not DLC or purchase related.
You can level mages guild in 1 day with addons that do not require a purchase.
You can level fighters guild in 1 day on the Alik'r dolmen train, no DLC or purchase required.
Also someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but purchasing skill lines only unlocks them, I'm pretty sure you still have to level them if you buy the vampire or ww skill line. You're not buying a maxed out skill.
Not to mention you still need the skill points and the skyshards to fill them out.
Plus there are level minimum level requirements for abilities, you can't max your skills out at lvl 15.
Edit: and since we're specifically talking about BGs at this point, I also want to point out that just having the skill lines doesn't equate to being skilled.
Source: I have every skill line and non-Alliance rank related skill point in the game...I am trash at pvp. If I buy a skill line for my alts tomorrow, that isn't going to teach me how to use the abilities effectively, how to counter other builds, or give me pvp gear with great stats.
Getting to the point where you can "bully" someone in pvp still takes a ton of time and practice. I do battlegrounds every day...and I'm still bad lmao. By your logic, I should be winning just because I have the skill lines. But it doesn't work like that.
Someone who only owns the base game and has never had ESO+ but knows how to pvp well is still going to wash me 😂
P2W means a significant advantage, not right away winning. All the by the book p2w games can still be grinded enough to defeat a player that payed but didn't play much.
Answer this question. If next chapter they introduce a ring, that negates all damage below 15k in pve, and you had to complete a 2 minutes quest for it, by your definition, it is not p2w, because:
1. You can still complete content without it.
2. You "earn it" and not straight away get it, therefore not p2w (2 minutes quest man!).
I assume we can agree that that ring will be p2w right? Now ask yourself, if the quest was 5 minutes, is it still p2w? What if 10? 20? 30?....600? What I am getting at is that there is a line somewhere between p2w and non p2w. Saying that it is not p2w because you had to grind it is wrong. Saying that the grind is long enough for it to not count as p2w is correct (as an opinion). In my opinion, the grind is definitely not long enough, since you can easily get it in a weekend (opposed to progressing a trial).
No, it doesn't - Pay to Win means you paid to win.
Not a single thing you listed was a pay to win situation. At most ESO offers pay for convenience, to save time - but you're not promised "winning" anything.
You can't buy Grand Overlord, You can't buy perfected vMA gear.
The majority of your complaint above was related to Fighters and Mages guild which are a part of base game. Just because someone completes it before you doesn't mean they have an advantage, nor does it mean they are guaranteed to succeed over you.
As new content gets released they're only going to introduce new classes, new abilities, new skills. You're calling everything higher than base game P2W and that's just ludicrous.
They want to create items and in game mechanics that players will want to earn. And thats all buying the DLC does - gives you the opportunity to earn it.
Why is grinding in a trial so much different than grinding in overland? They're both GRINDS 😂Edited by Faiza on November 25, 2020 6:56AM6 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dislike1.You can't buy skill lines that you haven't earned by playing through and leveling.
2. You are confusing Ring of the Wild Hunt with Ring of the Pale Order.
3. Ring of the Pale Order isn't teaching anyone mechanics, helping them grapple, or even increasing their base damage lol. They still have to do all of that on their own. It is an earned perk not a bought one.
4. How are skill lines like Psijic Order being used to bully players in BGs?
5. Everyone has access to ultimate abilities so not sure why you brought that up.
6. Ring of the Wild Hunt is a run speed increase. You might be able to sprint away with a relic faster, but you're going to get mauled by WWs just as hard as someone who doesn't have it.
1. You cant get full fighter's guild and mage guild consistently on a low level character.
2. Yes I did, apologies, meant pale order
3. It does increase damage, you have less GCD's you need to use resources for heals. Essentially getting more damage.
4. Not psijic. Mage and fighters mostly. Low levels lack a lot of skills+ passives, these skill lines are big advantage, especially since meteor helps bursting.
5. Ultimates from skill lines, you know, the ones you need 10/10 for? They are the major strength of buying the skill lines...
6. WWs are as strong exactly for the same reason buying skill lines is, it gives you skills to feel gaps of what you need. Ps dawnbreaker kills these wolves. And ye, sorry, meant pale order.
Neither Mages guild or fighters guild require DLC or purchases to acquire. So again, not P2W.
WWs also not DLC or purchase related.
You can level mages guild in 1 day with addons that do not require a purchase.
You can level fighters guild in 1 day on the Alik'r dolmen train, no DLC or purchase required.
Also someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but purchasing skill lines only unlocks them, I'm pretty sure you still have to level them if you buy the vampire or ww skill line. You're not buying a maxed out skill.
Not to mention you still need the skill points and the skyshards to fill them out.
Plus there are level minimum level requirements for abilities, you can't max your skills out at lvl 15.
Edit: and since we're specifically talking about BGs at this point, I also want to point out that just having the skill lines doesn't equate to being skilled.
Source: I have every skill line and non-Alliance rank related skill point in the game...I am trash at pvp. If I buy a skill line for my alts tomorrow, that isn't going to teach me how to use the abilities effectively, how to counter other builds, or give me pvp gear with great stats.
Getting to the point where you can "bully" someone in pvp still takes a ton of time and practice. I do battlegrounds every day...and I'm still bad lmao. By your logic, I should be winning just because I have the skill lines. But it doesn't work like that.
Someone who only owns the base game and has never had ESO+ but knows how to pvp well is still going to wash me 😂
P2W means a significant advantage, not right away winning. All the by the book p2w games can still be grinded enough to defeat a player that payed but didn't play much.
Answer this question. If next chapter they introduce a ring, that negates all damage below 15k in pve, and you had to complete a 2 minutes quest for it, by your definition, it is not p2w, because:
1. You can still complete content without it.
2. You "earn it" and not straight away get it, therefore not p2w (2 minutes quest man!).
I assume we can agree that that ring will be p2w right? Now ask yourself, if the quest was 5 minutes, is it still p2w? What if 10? 20? 30?....600? What I am getting at is that there is a line somewhere between p2w and non p2w. Saying that it is not p2w because you had to grind it is wrong. Saying that the grind is long enough for it to not count as p2w is correct (as an opinion). In my opinion, the grind is definitely not long enough, since you can easily get it in a weekend (opposed to progressing a trial).
No, it doesn't - Pay to Win means you paid to win.
Not a single thing you listed was a pay to win situation. At most ESO offers pay for convenience, to save time - but you're not promised "winning" anything.
You can't buy Grand Overlord, You can't buy perfected vMA gear.
The majority of your complaint above was related to Fighters and Mages guild which are a part of base game. Just because someone completes it before you doesn't mean they have an advantage, nor does it mean they are guaranteed to succeed over you.
So in your opinion the ring I have "created" wouldn't be p2w? Alright, back to agreeing to disagree.Edited by zvavi on November 25, 2020 6:55AM1 -
Faiza✭✭✭✭✭1.You can't buy skill lines that you haven't earned by playing through and leveling.
2. You are confusing Ring of the Wild Hunt with Ring of the Pale Order.
3. Ring of the Pale Order isn't teaching anyone mechanics, helping them grapple, or even increasing their base damage lol. They still have to do all of that on their own. It is an earned perk not a bought one.
4. How are skill lines like Psijic Order being used to bully players in BGs?
5. Everyone has access to ultimate abilities so not sure why you brought that up.
6. Ring of the Wild Hunt is a run speed increase. You might be able to sprint away with a relic faster, but you're going to get mauled by WWs just as hard as someone who doesn't have it.
1. You cant get full fighter's guild and mage guild consistently on a low level character.
2. Yes I did, apologies, meant pale order
3. It does increase damage, you have less GCD's you need to use resources for heals. Essentially getting more damage.
4. Not psijic. Mage and fighters mostly. Low levels lack a lot of skills+ passives, these skill lines are big advantage, especially since meteor helps bursting.
5. Ultimates from skill lines, you know, the ones you need 10/10 for? They are the major strength of buying the skill lines...
6. WWs are as strong exactly for the same reason buying skill lines is, it gives you skills to feel gaps of what you need. Ps dawnbreaker kills these wolves. And ye, sorry, meant pale order.
Neither Mages guild or fighters guild require DLC or purchases to acquire. So again, not P2W.
WWs also not DLC or purchase related.
You can level mages guild in 1 day with addons that do not require a purchase.
You can level fighters guild in 1 day on the Alik'r dolmen train, no DLC or purchase required.
Also someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but purchasing skill lines only unlocks them, I'm pretty sure you still have to level them if you buy the vampire or ww skill line. You're not buying a maxed out skill.
Not to mention you still need the skill points and the skyshards to fill them out.
Plus there are level minimum level requirements for abilities, you can't max your skills out at lvl 15.
Edit: and since we're specifically talking about BGs at this point, I also want to point out that just having the skill lines doesn't equate to being skilled.
Source: I have every skill line and non-Alliance rank related skill point in the game...I am trash at pvp. If I buy a skill line for my alts tomorrow, that isn't going to teach me how to use the abilities effectively, how to counter other builds, or give me pvp gear with great stats.
Getting to the point where you can "bully" someone in pvp still takes a ton of time and practice. I do battlegrounds every day...and I'm still bad lmao. By your logic, I should be winning just because I have the skill lines. But it doesn't work like that.
Someone who only owns the base game and has never had ESO+ but knows how to pvp well is still going to wash me 😂
P2W means a significant advantage, not right away winning. All the by the book p2w games can still be grinded enough to defeat a player that payed but didn't play much.
Answer this question. If next chapter they introduce a ring, that negates all damage below 15k in pve, and you had to complete a 2 minutes quest for it, by your definition, it is not p2w, because:
1. You can still complete content without it.
2. You "earn it" and not straight away get it, therefore not p2w (2 minutes quest man!).
I assume we can agree that that ring will be p2w right? Now ask yourself, if the quest was 5 minutes, is it still p2w? What if 10? 20? 30?....600? What I am getting at is that there is a line somewhere between p2w and non p2w. Saying that it is not p2w because you had to grind it is wrong. Saying that the grind is long enough for it to not count as p2w is correct (as an opinion). In my opinion, the grind is definitely not long enough, since you can easily get it in a weekend (opposed to progressing a trial).
No, it doesn't - Pay to Win means you paid to win.
Not a single thing you listed was a pay to win situation. At most ESO offers pay for convenience, to save time - but you're not promised "winning" anything.
You can't buy Grand Overlord, You can't buy perfected vMA gear.
The majority of your complaint above was related to Fighters and Mages guild which are a part of base game. Just because someone completes it before you doesn't mean they have an advantage, nor does it mean they are guaranteed to succeed over you.
So in your opinion the ring I have "created" wouldn't be p2w? Alright, back to agreeing to disagree.
Words mean things!!
Also, this 2 minute quest you keep bringing up is the most flimsy strawman argument ever. This literally doesn't exist and it won't.
We're are talking about the same game devs who force you to level an entire skill line by following stick figure maps and an annoying talking head across every continent in the game twice. 😂😂😂
They're not giving you anything in 2 minutes.Edited by Faiza on November 25, 2020 7:06AM3 -
Xuhora✭✭✭✭✭zvavi... alltough i hate any kind of discussion on P2W subject ill try once more...
in your argument every DLC ever made and ever to be made would be P2W since; if a developer creates something new, its mostly going to be a "upgrade" of some sorts. i mean if you design a new trial, you design new sets, but these sets have to be better than the current one, otherwise you are diminishing the incentive to buy this DLC.
take a look at the WoW expansions, if i recall correctly with each of them there was a level and thus gearcap increase of 10 lvls (give or take) and without owning the expansion you could not, under any circumstances compete with someone owning the expansion.
its in the nature of new things to be better than older onces (at least they try to)
Calling a ring from a DLC P2W, a "mythic" ring mind you, is not going to cut it. because i has to be better than existing stuff. imagine how stale an MMORPG would be after 4 years if you are still wearing the same gear you got at in the vanilla version because the new stuff did not progress in any kind.
now, your argumentation as you state is, holds true BUT i would strongly argue that it has to be left out. gear has to be better in a DLC. its a whole different story if there suddenly pops up a new sledgehammer like volendrung in the crownstore for 15k crowns, that would be P2W in my books.3 -
Faiza✭✭✭✭✭its a whole different story if there suddenly pops up a new sledgehammer like volendrung in the crownstore for 15k crowns, that would be P2W in my books.
This is what I have been trying to say. *stares at Black Desert Online* @_@
Imagine if crown crates dropped perfected gear. THAT is pay to win.Edited by Faiza on November 25, 2020 7:41AM4 -
preevious✭✭✭✭✭
✭LikeAH, the age old P2W discussion rages again ..
Here's what I think P2W is ..
Imagine a ring. It doubles your damage, your crit rate and heals you 10k per seconds.
That's powerfull stuff.
Then:- You buy it in crown store, for 10k crowns : yeah, that's P2W
- You find it in a new DLC by following a convoluted method and jumping through various hoops : yeah, it's the same ring, but that one is not P2W, and will never be.
What I'm saying is that OF COURSE, in a MMO, any new content will bring stuff players will want to obtain cause it is powerfull. And that stuff will OF COURSE be locked behind the new content.
That's the very definition of "new" content.
Eso is even quite tame, when it comes to new content. The level cap, when it raises, raises for everyone, not just the dlc-buyers. Overland gear can be bought. Crafting stations can be used thanks to the attuned system.
Not all MMO can say the same.
But seriously, thought experiment :
If you believe this ring is P2W, what would constitute for you a DLC that would not be? Just a zone, quests and nothing else?3 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dislike
If you believe this ring is P2W, what would constitute for you a DLC that would not be? Just a zone, quests and nothing else?
I clearly already stated that generally gear is not p2w. For something to be considered p2w it needs to give a significant advantage. Now that's a subjective thing. That's why I did mention siroria, veli, zaan, etc, which are bis (or were in the case of veli) they are not as strong as 6 times their alternatives. Ring of the pale order is.1 -
Kurat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ring of pale order is p2w for me. I've been running alot of vVH and I really struggle at last boss with stam toons. I get it done without the ring but with several deaths and very slow and painful. So there's no way I get the trifecta without it. As soon as I use the ring I get trifecta.
Same with some dungeons, especially dlc ones. I can solo alot of them with the right build but it can be slow and tedious for some fights. With the ring it becomes so much easier and I can use any class and any build. Normally I go in with adjusted build, like more tanky, more health and lots of self heals, defensive monster like Iceheart etc. But the ring allows me to go with totally meta like FG+MS and 17-18k hp and dont even have to slot self heal. Lately I've been doing pledges solo. I get 2 base game vets HM and dlc normal done faster solo than if I used group finder lol.
Sounds like a pay to win to me.3 -
notyuu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Likeit's alright but ulitmatly it makes the game go from ez to literal tedium for 99.95% of content....with the remaining 0.05% being pvp and trials....0 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Other - I don't have it and can't get it. I haven't gotten *any* of the mythics. They are way too much of a PITA to obtain and I'm very disappointed with their implementation to be honest.0 -
Faiza✭✭✭✭✭Ring of pale order is p2w for me. I've been running alot of vVH and I really struggle at last boss with stam toons. I get it done without the ring but with several deaths and very slow and painful. So there's no way I get the trifecta without it. As soon as I use the ring I get trifecta.
Same with some dungeons, especially dlc ones. I can solo alot of them with the right build but it can be slow and tedious for some fights. With the ring it becomes so much easier and I can use any class and any build. Normally I go in with adjusted build, like more tanky, more health and lots of self heals, defensive monster like Iceheart etc. But the ring allows me to go with totally meta like FG+MS and 17-18k hp and dont even have to slot self heal. Lately I've been doing pledges solo. I get 2 base game vets HM and dlc normal done faster solo than if I used group finder lol.
Sounds like a pay to win to me.
But "P2W" isn't a reflection off how strong an item is. It's a reflection of how it was acquired.
You also admit yourself you already know the content and were able to do it without.
Someone who is bad at their class, doesn't know the mechanics, and has a poor build without rhe ring isn't going to clear vVH as soon as they get it.4 -
Faiza✭✭✭✭✭Feels like too strong for soloing, while I dislike calling p2w to things you need to go through content to get, when the alternatives are that much worse, I will call it p2w. This ring is p2w.
Then again, what does it matter. Game ain't working anyway.
To me, it's not P2W unless you absolutely cannot progress without it. Lots of people solo content without the ring, and while the ring may make improvements to what they're already doing, not having the ring is also not impeding anyone from soloing.
Of course you can progress without it... But compare it to the alternatives available, iceheart for example. You lose a monster set, for 5k shield every 6 seconds, while the ring easily dishes out 5k heal per second, if not more. I know that survivability wise, nothing comes close to it, it is trice as strong as the pre-nerfed iceheart (that was nerfed because it was "too good at what it does", lol). How strong does the ring have to be for you to count it as p2w?
Again, I don't like to call it p2w, but it is way too strong.
I'm sure it is very strong, but I think P2W is a stretch considering that, while yes you have to own Greymoor, you absolutely are working for the rest. It's not like purchasing an item on the crown store lol.
I started farming the pieces for it tonight, actually, and everything dropped fairly quickly except the portion in Bad Man's Hollow. I spent several hours running a path competing with other players (mind you I do have Ring of the Wild Hunt and Coward's Gear, so we're talking hundreds of rotations per hour) and....
drumroll please
No ring!!! 😂😂😂
So you see, I paid and am not winning. Thus this system cannot be P2W. I rest my case lol.
Edit: plus you gotta factor in the time it took initially to even level the 2 antiquity skill lines.
Okay, update 🥰
After a combined total of 7 hours (that's almost a work day) of running in circles in Bad Man's Hollow obliterating skeevers with Wall of Fire...I now have the ring lol.
So, that's 7hrs in addition to the time it took to acquire the other 4 pieces. It took me an additional hour and a half to open enough safeboxes in Bangkorai, for example (another skill that requires a skill line to be maxed to do quickly and efficiently). Also level the skill lines. Also complete The Reach storyline to a high enough point to enter Nighthollow Keep.
I'm probably not even going to use this, because this was so tedious to do and now I'm tired lol 😔Edited by Faiza on November 25, 2020 5:05PM0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LikeIt's fine as is. Good players wont use it for most things. It makes content like VMA and VVH accessible to a larger percent of the player base, which was certainly their intention. If coordinated 4man groups want to run 3DPS, who gives a ....3 -
Evilspock✭✭✭✭I don't have it yet to say, but the badmans hallow lead is the worst ever. I don't know who's brilliant idea that was at ZOS, but no one enjoys killing sparse trash mobs for hours with no reward.🖖 @EvilSpock |PC/NA| ✦ Guildmaster: Vulcan Commandos |AD| ✦ https://youtube.com/@vulcan_commando1 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Like
Tell that to all my characters who don't even need the ring to solo world bosses... Although this discussion is for one of those overland difficulty threads.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK3
