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Executioner and D Swing, why we don't have any similar for Mag builds?
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vesselwiththepestle✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'd gladly throw D Swing away for anything better.
Oh, wait. During Primetime D Swing is unplayable anyways. So I completely stopped playing D Swing. Most of the time I preffer DW and Flurry, because it doesn't have nearly as much desync. I am envious of those solo players and smallscalers who can run around the tower and still hit there D Swing together with a Dawnbreaker canceling into Executioner... When noone's around I can barely hit a npc standing still.
1000+ CP
PC/EU Ravenwatch Daggerfall Covenant
Give me my wings back!3 -
Reverb✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ive no problem with D-swing being specific to a melee, heavy weapon.
I’ve often wondered why there’s no execute in the destruction staff line, or even a mag execute in one of the guild lines though. All of the stam dps weapons have an execute, including an execute dot on bow and a pbaoe execute on dw. So if you pick a class without an execute you are hobbled by choosing to play a mage, or buoyed by playing a stam fighter.
Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~Friedrich Nietzsche2 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ive no problem with D-swing being specific to a melee, heavy weapon.
I’ve often wondered why there’s no execute in the destruction staff line, or even a mag execute in one of the guild lines though. All of the stam dps weapons have an execute, including an execute dot on bow and a pbaoe execute on dw. So if you pick a class without an execute you are hobbled by choosing to play a mage, or buoyed by playing a stam fighter.
It is worse than that...no heal. No major sorcery. No snare immunity. You get all kinds of goodness from 2H in addition to a high damage soft CC and execute.
It just fills so many gaps. My necro is garbage as magicka, roll stam, and get 2H, and all the problems are fixed. Instantly viable. Imagine how good magcro could be if there were a magicka weapon like 2H.4 -
Vizirith✭✭✭✭The issue is that 2H skill line makes up for alot of weaknesses that are prevalent amongst stam classes. Rally covers the Major brutality which is only accessible to Necros and templars via either that or dw. Igneous weapons on dk and that stam sap essence thing on nbs arent very good. NBs need Rally for the heal which along with vigor are really the only heals they have access to. Dks only have rally, vigor and cauterize. Templar only has vigor and rally. Stamcros only have the spirit guardian (HOT), mortal coil (HOT), vigor and rally.
With SnB pierce armor now giving almost 9k pen, its borderline mandatory on classes without any other source of it, which means 1 bar Snb and the other, just to get major brutality and an instant heal, is 2H.
However as the game progresses and more and more previously mag morphs become stamina variants clearly there needs to be another mag weapon skill line, like the oft proposed 1H+rune.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »
If you want to run executioner and d-swing then roll a stam. We do not need to homogenize the game further.
Besides, if you are running a mag build, which would seem to be the case, there is something about that build you like which is why you are not running a stam build. There is a choice there so no, the game is not homogenized that far and we do not need to push it more in that direction.2 -
Adenoma✭✭✭✭✭
✭The biggest problem to me is the homogenization of stamina DPS options - we all know that DW lacks a burst instant cast skill and due to S&B being a tiny bit overloaded (as a person who used to love heroic slash), we’re reduced to using 2h as a melee damage option along with classes that have viable stamina spammables. Really that cuts things down to stamplar and stamblade as the only classes with viable non-2h offensive options - barring some corner scenarios and builds.Adenoma-Badenoma-Sadenoma1 -
UntouchableHunter✭✭✭✭Nord_Raseri wrote: »UntouchableHunter wrote: »Nord_Raseri wrote: »UntouchableHunter wrote: »
I'm not. Not D swing. At all.
But executioner for sure 👌
Should I only be running Momentum? Would you then be happy?
You didn't get my point.
EVERY STAM CLASS IS RUNNING THIS WEAPON SKILL.
Please tell one only weapon skill that every mag class is running.
If Stam have a amazing skill for every class, mag should have too
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UntouchableHunter✭✭✭✭D swing can be dodged and blocked, easily telegraphed.
Any decent player will do that.
Dizzy swing works only against potatos.
Executioner animation cancel doesn't work properly anymore it sucks against dodge rollers well fitted builds.
That's why I enjoy playing templar, it sucks because of potl and bl nerf, but still feels good to have biting jabs and not needing to use dizzy.
7 piece well fitted? You're out of luck son against jabs.
I do get rage whispers about jab spam, but I don't get that about dizzy spam.
If D Swing and Executioner are so bad.. Why every Stam class is using it????
Go to Cyrodill and IC and you will see.
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Scarkii✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »D swing can be dodged and blocked, easily telegraphed.
Any decent player will do that.
Dizzy swing works only against potatos.
Executioner animation cancel doesn't work properly anymore it sucks against dodge rollers well fitted builds.
That's why I enjoy playing templar, it sucks because of potl and bl nerf, but still feels good to have biting jabs and not needing to use dizzy.
7 piece well fitted? You're out of luck son against jabs.
I do get rage whispers about jab spam, but I don't get that about dizzy spam.
If D Swing and Executioner are so bad.. Why every Stam class is using it????
Go to Cyrodill and IC and you will see.
because theres literally no other good options for stam"Even the slightest amount of courage can change the tides of War"
Former DK main
Characters - Templar - Sharaji EP/ DK - S'avira EP6 -
UntouchableHunter✭✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »D swing can be dodged and blocked, easily telegraphed.
Any decent player will do that.
Dizzy swing works only against potatos.
Executioner animation cancel doesn't work properly anymore it sucks against dodge rollers well fitted builds.
That's why I enjoy playing templar, it sucks because of potl and bl nerf, but still feels good to have biting jabs and not needing to use dizzy.
7 piece well fitted? You're out of luck son against jabs.
I do get rage whispers about jab spam, but I don't get that about dizzy spam.
If D Swing and Executioner are so bad.. Why every Stam class is using it????
Go to Cyrodill and IC and you will see.
because theres literally no other good options for stam
Of course not. There's literally no other good options for Stam AND MAG.
But only Stam can use and mag does not have nothing close to it.0 -
Nord_Raseri✭✭✭✭✭
✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »Nord_Raseri wrote: »UntouchableHunter wrote: »Nord_Raseri wrote: »UntouchableHunter wrote: »
I'm not. Not D swing. At all.
But executioner for sure 👌
Should I only be running Momentum? Would you then be happy?
You didn't get my point.
EVERY STAM CLASS IS RUNNING THIS WEAPON SKILL.
Please tell one only weapon skill that every mag class is running.
If Stam have a amazing skill for every class, mag should have too
You said "every stam class is running Dswing plus executioner". I told you I'm not running Dswing at all. Mind boggling...Edited by Nord_Raseri on November 28, 2020 7:04AMVeit ég aðég hékk vindga meiði á nætr allar níu, geiri undaðr og gefinn Oðni, sjálfr sjálfum mér, á þeim meiði er manngi veit hvers hann af rótum rennr.0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »
Not really.
Dunno what platform/server you play on but this is just not true.
Stamplars and stamblades pretty much never run dizzy.
Spin to win is a very popular execute as well a lot of players run it over executioner.
There is variety.
The reason Stam has more weapons is Beacuse mag had more class skills to choose from, plain and simple.
Zos has tried to make more Stam class skills over the years but ita nowhere near even.
Where's my Stam morph for endless fury or jbeam?
Stam curse?
Stam whip?
The list goes on.
I wouldn't mind a new Magicka weapon, but I'd also like more Stam morphs to class skills.3 -
UntouchableHunter✭✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »
Not really.
Dunno what platform/server you play on but this is just not true.
Stamplars and stamblades pretty much never run dizzy.
Spin to win is a very popular execute as well a lot of players run it over executioner.
There is variety.
The reason Stam has more weapons is Beacuse mag had more class skills to choose from, plain and simple.
Zos has tried to make more Stam class skills over the years but ita nowhere near even.
Where's my Stam morph for endless fury or jbeam?
Stam curse?
Stam whip?
The list goes on.
I wouldn't mind a new Magicka weapon, but I'd also like more Stam morphs to class skills.
You only made my point stronger.
Mag doesn't have a execute ability Stam have executioner and spin to win.
The sorc with execute is the only one can be compere with Stam pvps.
In months you will only one mag class in pvp the sorcer and all the other stamina class because.
And you guys saying that give a execute for Mag weapons is homogenize the game. Go to IC only Stam class and some mag sorcer.
Because nobody wana run mag Warden. Mag necro, mag dk. Mag Nb when they see the Stam classes are far stronger and have execute options.
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UntouchableHunter✭✭✭✭I got my Stam necro and Stam Dk ready. So easy to play and kill really really fast
I'm going to homogenize the game right now with my Stam class and D Swing and execute
Great job ZOS0 -
Grimlok_S✭✭✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »I got my Stam necro and Stam Dk ready. So easy to play and kill really really fast
I'm going to homogenize the game right now with my Stam class and D Swing and execute
Great job ZOS
Hav fun become GANK by light attack magic hahahaha!Light Attack Hero
Class contextStamplar
StamDK
Stamsorc
MagDK
StamMAGStamden
Magplar
Stam NB
Bomb NB1 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »D swing can be dodged and blocked, easily telegraphed.
Any decent player will do that.
Dizzy swing works only against potatos.
Executioner animation cancel doesn't work properly anymore it sucks against dodge rollers well fitted builds.
That's why I enjoy playing templar, it sucks because of potl and bl nerf, but still feels good to have biting jabs and not needing to use dizzy.
7 piece well fitted? You're out of luck son against jabs.
I do get rage whispers about jab spam, but I don't get that about dizzy spam.
If D Swing and Executioner are so bad.. Why every Stam class is using it????
Go to Cyrodill and IC and you will see.
because theres literally no other good options for stam
While I generally agree that this is true, it also highlights how there is an issue with magicka spammables as for lots of classes the choice for magicka spammable is from a set of choices that are equivalent to those other "not good" stamina options.
Take the newer classes, Warden and Necro, and consider the options for these.
From their class, they both get can equivalent spammable, birds and skulls respectively, with approximately equal options available to stam and mag.
Then there's also crushing or elemental weapon from psijic as another option, again with approximately equal strength option available to stam and mag.
Magicka then has force pulse, vampire spammable, and sort of master reach.
Stamina has the weapon spammables, including dizzy, flurry, snipe.
Now, I don't think I've ever come across a Stamcro or Stamden using their class spammable or crushing weapon over dizzy. Which implies to me that dizzy is clearly better than all these options, because, as you point out, they are not good options.
But I see all of the magicka spammables above used, which implies to me that they are all about equal in terms of power (or at least it depends on the build). And yet these are directly comparable in terms of strength to the "not good" and never used stamina options.
Not saying I think dizzy should be changed, or that I want a generic magicka equivalent. Rather it would be nice if these subpar class options were at a level where they were they were at least considered viable for stamina, and the magicka versions were also improved the same amount.
Note: this is not an issue for all classes, jabs is an example that is viable (or potentially stronger) in comparison to dizzy, and it has a magicka equivalent in sweeps.4 -
ealdwin✭✭✭✭✭
✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »Now, I don't think I've ever come across a Stamcro or Stamden using their class spammable or crushing weapon over dizzy. Which implies to me that dizzy is clearly better than all these options, because, as you point out, they are not good options.
One of the main issues with those spammables, is that they are meant to be cast at a distance, whereas most Stamina builds tend to be at a melee range.
It's one of the issues with developing classes with one line meant for damage. It means that only one skill and its morphs will be designed as a spammable. This type of design forces one vision for what a DD of that class looks like and then creates a blue flavour and a green flavour for that vision.
Take Necromancer for example. Flame skull simply doesn't work as a Stam spammable because its ranged nature makes it clunkier to use in a rotation. What should have been done was to make the Stam morph of Scythe either single target, or comparable to Brawler in order to function as a melee Stam spammable, fulfilling almost a "Death-Knight" type of vision for Stamina Necro DD.
The problem of Mag not having a comparable spammable to Dizzy could easily be solved if hybrid builds utilizing stam based weapon abilities and mag based class abilities were more viable, thus allowing more access to a wide array of abilities.
As a side note, the only time I can recall recently seeing Dizzy and Executioner dominate my death recaps is in u50 PVP, where that's all some players have.Edited by ealdwin on December 10, 2020 2:42PM0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭One of the main issues with those spammables, is that they are meant to be cast at a distance, whereas most Stamina builds tend to be at a melee range.
It's one of the issues with developing classes with one line meant for damage. It means that only one skill and its morphs will be designed as a spammable. This type of design forces one vision for what a DD of that class looks like and then creates a blue flavour and a green flavour for that vision.
Take Necromancer for example. Flame skull simply doesn't work as a Stam spammable because its ranged nature makes it clunkier to use in a rotation. What should have been done was to make the Stam morph of Scythe either single target, or comparable to Brawler in order to function as a melee Stam spammable, fulfilling almost a "Death-Knight" type of vision for Stamina Necro DD.
Yeah I get what you mean, and the example with necro makes sense. The same applies to warden with birds. There is also the fact that melee abilities get a higher damage amount in their budget, so its basically never going to be comparable to a melee skill for an melee build anyway. I agree this is a problem with the classes being designed with only one spammable, and then making it ranged to try to make it a "fits all". I think you are right that this stems from the idea of "one tree for damage" meaning that once the class design takes the cookie cutter approach of also including a dot, a delayed burst, a damage buff etc, there's only room for one spammable. Ideally I would like to see at least some classes have a mixture of magicka/stamina melee/ranged abilities, to avoid further pushing the whole stamina = melee, magicka = ranged idea.
That said, the same argument is still true even if we look at those skills for a ranged build, in the case of the rare ranged stamcro or ranged stamden - they will use snipe over skulls/birds. So again, if we consider just the ranged case, we end up with the case where stamina has a skill that is always used as the others are "not good", and yet the only available magicka skills are equivalent to those "not good" skills. Although in this case I will accept that this can be offset as magicka tends to have a lot more supporting skills for ranged, so we can't just look at this in isolation.The problem of Mag not having a comparable spammable to Dizzy could easily be solved if hybrid builds utilizing stam based weapon abilities and mag based class abilities were more viable, thus allowing more access to a wide array of abilities.
This could work, and I have often mused on it myself, but I'm not sure how easy it would be to achieve given how everything in the game tend to push a build to either pure stam or pure mag. The other alternative is the often proposed idea of a new melee magicka weapon line.As a side note, the only time I can recall recently seeing Dizzy and Executioner dominate my death recaps is in u50 PVP, where that's all some players have.
This is similar to my experience as well, (although I will admit I haven't been in cyrodiil much this patch due to other circumstances). I think is is because generally speaking spammables aren't the way you secure a kill in PvP - its procs, burst and ultimates. And even so, while they don't dominate death recaps as you say, I would say anecdotally that I find they are still far more common than any magicka spammable/execute with the notable exception of sweeps (but sweeps may be specific to myself as it tends to be my bane as a melee magblade).Edited by ExistingRug61 on December 10, 2020 5:01AM2 -
Doczy✭✭✭nah mag builds need flat %50 damage increase.
for example im a glass cannon i need to damage at least 10k to medium 7k to tank and medium damages me 12k. tank 8k
because im glass. and i can kite with cc ( its a lie no one can snare any stamina player and kite. cuz they rolling running and jumping )
so i need to damage 12k to medium and 10k to tank
but in reality i hit 5k to medium 3k to tank
and medium hits 8k to me and tank 6k
why any magicka user would want to play a magicka class with this stupidity?0 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Whoever here said crystal weapon is bad clearly does not know the full capabilities of the skill.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc1 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Indeed.StaticWave wrote: »Whoever here said crystal weapon is bad clearly does not know the full capabilities of the skill.
I had a recap recently in a Battleground that went:
1) Crystal Weapon: 4,998
2) Frenzied Momentum: 4,116
3) Dawnbreaker of Smiting: 8,157
4) Medium Attack: 2,611
5) Whirling Blades: 8,686
If we leave out the execute (and weapon enchant/poisons/Hurricane/Bound Armaments/etc...), that's 19,882 damage for only a single in-combat global cooldown + split second "medium" attack, at a cost of only 125 ultimate. That sort of burst damage also exists right alongside the best mobility in the game, very strong self-heal potential, easy access to on-demand stun(s), some of the best anti-cloak tools that exist, and the all-important Negate (though that'll obviously lower the burst - not that Suppression Field can't do respectable damage on its own).
And some people really want to leave Magicka with Force Pulse and Elemental Weapon while they get yet another Dizzying Swing analog in class skills, dual wield, etc...#balance1 -
UntouchableHunter✭✭✭✭Mag dk fight in a melee range and doesn't have a execute.
And the stamina ranged weapon have a execute anyway...
So why the mag weapons can't have a execute?This really doesn't make sense.
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montiferus✭✭✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »
No they aren't. Why do people insist on making inaccurate blanket statements?Edited by montiferus on December 17, 2020 6:28PM1 -
My magplar has a weird rotation where it opens with Degen (Major Sorcery in templar line when?) at range, likes to be in melee for most of the damage (sweepyspear), then either backs off or lets the enemy flee for the finisher (jesus beam).
Casting jesus beam in melee range against a good player is not a good idea, since bash cancels it and all you need is the animation for being bashed while casting for most people to heal from execute -> almost full.
Having a melee execute would make this a lot less awkward.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »
Not really.
Dunno what platform/server you play on but this is just not true.
Stamplars and stamblades pretty much never run dizzy.
Spin to win is a very popular execute as well a lot of players run it over executioner.
There is variety.
The reason Stam has more weapons is Beacuse mag had more class skills to choose from, plain and simple.
Zos has tried to make more Stam class skills over the years but ita nowhere near even.
Where's my Stam morph for endless fury or jbeam?
Stam curse?
Stam whip?
The list goes on.
I wouldn't mind a new Magicka weapon, but I'd also like more Stam morphs to class skills.
Very good point bringing to light that if is false to suggest every stam build runs dswing and executioner, as well as pointing out that the game still has a lot of unique skills out there not available to everyone.
The suggestion this thread makes is to homogenize the game further and it seems pretty clear most players do not want that.1 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I think the actual goal is balance, not simply homogenization for its own sake. If Stamina builds are all given easy access to an extremely strong spammable and powerful execute(s), then the same should be true for Magicka builds. Having those Magicka tools be somewhat different is completely fine, but having them all be balanced is vastly more important in an MMORPG - especially for PvP.The suggestion this thread makes is to homogenize the game further and it seems pretty clear most players do not want that.
Not very many people want to play something underpowered just because it's different from everything else. This is why numerous Magicka classes are grossly underrepresented in things like Battlegrounds and solo-Cyrodiil. It gets old hearing people make arguments that numerous classes need to be held back and denied parity just so they aren't too "homogenized" with other classes that are drastically superior....and also happen to be played by the people arguing that your class(es) should be kept "in their place."1 -
UntouchableHunter✭✭✭✭montiferus wrote: »UntouchableHunter wrote: »
No they aren't. Why do people insist on making inaccurate blanket statements?
I'm running now with my new stamdk.
Few hours leveling up and with dzwing and Executioner is way stronger than my magdk.
But for classes like Stamblade and stamplar they are even stronger than any mag class because they can use their own skills and still have executioner to choose and yes there arr NBs running executioner.
But my mag dk doesn't have a skill line execute, a weapon line execute, and Stam class have everything.Edited by UntouchableHunter on December 19, 2020 11:23PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I think the actual goal is balance, not simply homogenization for its own sake. If Stamina builds are all given easy access to an extremely strong spammable and powerful execute(s), then the same should be true for Magicka builds. Having those Magicka tools be somewhat different is completely fine, but having them all be balanced is vastly more important in an MMORPG - especially for PvP.The suggestion this thread makes is to homogenize the game further and it seems pretty clear most players do not want that.
Not very many people want to play something underpowered just because it's different from everything else. This is why numerous Magicka classes are grossly underrepresented in things like Battlegrounds and solo-Cyrodiil. It gets old hearing people make arguments that numerous classes need to be held back and denied parity just so they aren't too "homogenized" with other classes that are drastically superior....and also happen to be played by the people arguing that your class(es) should be kept "in their place."
Actually, OP is asking for more variation for magicka builds by making things more similar between magicka and stamina. That is homogenization at its core.
They also incorrectly state as their basis that the specified skills are so good that every stam build uses them. That absolute state meant has been discredited in this thread so the foundation of their argument is not very solid.1
