Why the change to group size and limiting healing to groups is a good change

Bergzorn

The faction stacks will undoubtedly be weaker after this change, but they won't be any smaller. Need more meat shields to be safe.

badmojo

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Also I am not sure where you get this idea that ungrouped players can't heal other ungrouped players. From when I was in testing environment this was not the case.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

all ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group.

If two people are ungrouped, their "ally-targeted abilities" will apply to nobody but themselves. Perhaps you are correct and some heals still worked during testing, but their intentions are quite clear, their incompetence in actually implementing it will eventually be fixed.

Do you really thing some overlooked psijic ability to light attack a friendly for 1k heals is going to save our builds? And then next week when it gets axed too?

SgtNuttzmeg

badmojo wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Also I am not sure where you get this idea that ungrouped players can't heal other ungrouped players. From when I was in testing environment this was not the case.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

all ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group.

If two people are ungrouped, their "ally-targeted abilities" will apply to nobody but themselves. Perhaps you are correct and some heals still worked during testing, but their intentions are quite clear, their incompetence in actually implementing it will eventually be fixed.

Do you really thing some overlooked psijic ability to light attack a friendly for 1k heals is going to save our builds? And then next week when it gets axed too?

This was the case during the testing environments. She shortened it the wording. You see the same thing if you compare the explanation of the earlier tests with the more recent ones they added.

I never said it was overlooked my point was that a tab targetable spell exists in the game currently. I see no reason why other spells couldn't function in the same way. I would much rather a game that did not have smart healing than a game that did.

alterfenixeb17_ESO

ThePedge wrote: »

Healers are mad they are going to have to work for their AP.

Reality is: healer outside of the group currently needs to cast at least one skill in order to get anything. ANY player in a group can go simi AFK (just stay close to the rest) and get AP as well. Also keep in mind that this supposedly lazy healer that earns nothing is in your group and when they do earn anything for whatever actions they perform it also applies to you too. In other words you are benefactor of it as well currently.

montjie

alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Healers are mad they are going to have to work for their AP.

Reality is: healer outside of the group currently needs to cast at least one skill in order to get anything. ANY player in a group can go simi AFK (just stay close to the rest) and get AP as well. Also keep in mind that this supposedly lazy healer that earns nothing is in your group and when they do earn anything for whatever actions they perform it also applies to you too. In other words you are benefactor of it as well currently.

The mental gymnastics these people perform to justify their 'solo healer' playstyle is quite amusing. Kinda sad but amusing none the less.
I also always chuckle a bit when I hear someone call themselves a solo healer. As im picturing that person trying to BoL its enemy to death or something

Ranger209

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Also I am not sure where you get this idea that ungrouped players can't heal other ungrouped players. From when I was in testing environment this was not the case.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

all ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group.

If two people are ungrouped, their "ally-targeted abilities" will apply to nobody but themselves. Perhaps you are correct and some heals still worked during testing, but their intentions are quite clear, their incompetence in actually implementing it will eventually be fixed.

Do you really thing some overlooked psijic ability to light attack a friendly for 1k heals is going to save our builds? And then next week when it gets axed too?

This was the case during the testing environments. She shortened it the wording. You see the same thing if you compare the explanation of the earlier tests with the more recent ones they added.

I never said it was overlooked my point was that a tab targetable spell exists in the game currently. I see no reason why other spells couldn't function in the same way. I would much rather a game that did not have smart healing than a game that did.

Totally agree with a hard TAB targeting system would serve this game better than the current smart system. Let me be clear that the hard TAB target should work only on allies, thus to be used for support and heals. Why must I rely on a lag inducing algorithm to target the recipient of my buffs/heals when I know who I want the recipient to be. At least half of the time my buff/heal goes to someone other than the intended target which means I now have to spam said lag inducing algorithm until it does land on my intended target. Using the crosshair and TAB to target an ally and then apply a buff/heal to them means my spell gets cast on exactly who I want it to.

For combat purposes the current crosshair only targeting system used to damage enemies can be left as is to keep that aspect of combat as fast and fluid as it currently is. Also getting rid of the ability to soft TAB target an enemy I find a good thing as well. There is no reason I should be able to know through a ghost outline where my enemy is if I have lost line of sight. I find this to be a negative mechanic as well. The TAB target system should not be used for enemies, only for allies.

Doing this allows healers to be very specific with where their buffs/heals are placed whether it is to groupmates, or ungrouped allies. At the same time the crosshair, or combat reticle would still be used to debuff/damage enemies preserving that aspect of ESO combat.

SgtNuttzmeg

montjie wrote: »

alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Healers are mad they are going to have to work for their AP.

Reality is: healer outside of the group currently needs to cast at least one skill in order to get anything. ANY player in a group can go simi AFK (just stay close to the rest) and get AP as well. Also keep in mind that this supposedly lazy healer that earns nothing is in your group and when they do earn anything for whatever actions they perform it also applies to you too. In other words you are benefactor of it as well currently.

The mental gymnastics these people perform to justify their 'solo healer' playstyle is quite amusing. Kinda sad but amusing none the less.
I also always chuckle a bit when I hear someone call themselves a solo healer. As im picturing that person trying to BoL its enemy to death or something

I can understand why they are upset. They are no longer able to play the game how they were before. It does kinda suck for them. This is part of why this should have been a patch #1 kinda of thing. People have grown accustomed to smart healing, a 24 person group size and being able to heal whomever they want. These things realistically should never have been in the game to begin with.

It just took 6 years of spaghetti code for it to reach the point where they were forced to start looking at this. The important thing to remember is that ZOS is not done. Their are more changes and tests coming. I think we should all be cautiously optimistic. We know that cooldowns don't work. We also know that there were alot of bugs with the tests. Certain synergies could be activated multiple times, others couldn't be activated at all and some heals even bypassed the group restriction. We need to give ZOS a bit flexibility when playing around with this. We know it got significantly worse after we redownloaded the game and stadia was introduced.

In the end performance is a really complicated problem and I think the aoe tests really showed that. it isn't a matter of how well the player base scaled or how good certain sets are. It's not just CP either. We know that because Ravenwatch was laggy a lot of nights too. We know it has to do with group size but this is also not the case because there are times when there are two or three people fighting and the game plays like crap. I think in the end ZOS will need to confront the issues within the code but there are still features in this game that are not practical from an optimization stand point. It is important that we address these too. This was one of the big ones. Hopefully we see them working on curving smart healing further, reducing the necessity of purge/dots and move away from purges and look at HOT stacking.

Part of the problem is the meta they have been developing into doesn't really support the changes that need to be made. We need to communicate that to ZOS. I think that is more important at this point. They need to understand that proc sets might lower the skill celling slightly but they can be super abusable in the hands of a veteran player. What we need to move towards is more of a pure burst meta where fights end quickly, people rely on HOTS/purge mechanics less (maybe reduce the ability to use these) and the objectives push players to separate more.

They need to look at things like scrolls and hammers. This objectives act as a bug zapper does to bugs. They also need to work on separating people so that AvAvA isn't just which direction around the lake are we rotating for this hour. That's what I want.

There are other things they should look at too from a meta standpoint but that is too off track from this discussion.

SgtNuttzmeg

Ranger209 wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Also I am not sure where you get this idea that ungrouped players can't heal other ungrouped players. From when I was in testing environment this was not the case.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

all ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group.

If two people are ungrouped, their "ally-targeted abilities" will apply to nobody but themselves. Perhaps you are correct and some heals still worked during testing, but their intentions are quite clear, their incompetence in actually implementing it will eventually be fixed.

Do you really thing some overlooked psijic ability to light attack a friendly for 1k heals is going to save our builds? And then next week when it gets axed too?

This was the case during the testing environments. She shortened it the wording. You see the same thing if you compare the explanation of the earlier tests with the more recent ones they added.

I never said it was overlooked my point was that a tab targetable spell exists in the game currently. I see no reason why other spells couldn't function in the same way. I would much rather a game that did not have smart healing than a game that did.

Totally agree with a hard TAB targeting system would serve this game better than the current smart system. Let me be clear that the hard TAB target should work only on allies, thus to be used for support and heals. Why must I rely on a lag inducing algorithm to target the recipient of my buffs/heals when I know who I want the recipient to be. At least half of the time my buff/heal goes to someone other than the intended target which means I now have to spam said lag inducing algorithm until it does land on my intended target. Using the crosshair and TAB to target an ally and then apply a buff/heal to them means my spell gets cast on exactly who I want it to.

For combat purposes the current crosshair only targeting system used to damage enemies can be left as is to keep that aspect of combat as fast and fluid as it currently is. Also getting rid of the ability to soft TAB target an enemy I find a good thing as well. There is no reason I should be able to know through a ghost outline where my enemy is if I have lost line of sight. I find this to be a negative mechanic as well. The TAB target system should not be used for enemies, only for allies.

Doing this allows healers to be very specific with where their buffs/heals are placed whether it is to groupmates, or ungrouped allies. At the same time the crosshair, or combat reticle would still be used to debuff/damage enemies preserving that aspect of ESO combat.

Agreed. There is already an ability that does it so we know it is possible. Question is how to convince them.

Thraben

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

When players zerg they get a lot of passive healing and buff. This helps to make squisher DDs more viable but as the same time it reduces the value a healer can bring to a group because these players already have these buffs and they are already getting healing. So these groups can typically make it by without a healer or with not very many healers but once you start looking at self contained groups. The more optimized ball groups, the ones that farm the tops of keeps without the aid of ambient healing from zergs, you will see most groups run several healers. Some will even run with up to a third or more of their raid comp comprised of healers. As groups start to notice the lack of ambient healing during these big fights, their will be a big push to get more healers in your group.

Now not every group will want to run a more optimized setup, not every group will require a specific number of healers but as people start to die quicker and people start to notice the lack of healing in key moments they will snag you up.

I suggest you start such a PuG group once a week to test your hypothesis.

Reaper_00

Well as a solo healer in Cyro for the last four years, I'm not looking forward to the change. Where as previously I could move to where my faction most needed me at a moments notice, I'm now going to be stuck with a group that thinks chasing a DK around a tower for two hours is more important than protecting a home keep or a scroll runner. And yes I could start my own group, but most weekdays I only have an hour at most to play in Cyro and I don't want to spend most of that time managing a group.

I'd be totally fine if they changed smart healing to targeted healing like most other games. This just seems like a lazy way out of previous poor coding decisions.

I guess it's time to dust off my bow gank proc set snipe spammer....

LostToTheSea

montjie wrote: »

alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Healers are mad they are going to have to work for their AP.

Reality is: healer outside of the group currently needs to cast at least one skill in order to get anything. ANY player in a group can go simi AFK (just stay close to the rest) and get AP as well. Also keep in mind that this supposedly lazy healer that earns nothing is in your group and when they do earn anything for whatever actions they perform it also applies to you too. In other words you are benefactor of it as well currently.

The mental gymnastics these people perform to justify their 'solo healer' playstyle is quite amusing. Kinda sad but amusing none the less.
I also always chuckle a bit when I hear someone call themselves a solo healer. As im picturing that person trying to BoL its enemy to death or something

The image gave me a good laugh, because in many cases that happens to be true. However, from playing ESO since 2015 as a strict 2 damage sets medium armor DD on a faction that was nearly always WAY outnumbered outside of primetime hours, especially on certain fronts (I'm talking often 4-12v60 or similar odds)(which I avoid primetime for obvious reasons)... Many of the best players I have ever seen in ESO were ungrouped healers that just went wherever or where they felt they were needed most. In fact, the majority of the best players in ESO are healers. All of them were pure skill and not meta chasing healers, as well.

It's not hard to meta carry yourself as a DD and pretend to be good or build yourself in a certain way to 1vX a bunch of potato players with a couple competent ones mixed in (vast majority of every 1vX clip ever made falls into one of these or both). It's extremely difficult to essentially 3-6vX an entire faction's zerg in or outside of a group. A few of them ran with a guild one night or two each week, but whenever you'd see them... they were ungrouped or "solo" facing odds most people simply avoid in favor of tower circling or PVDoor/zergsurfing. Yet, all of these healers I speak of actively prefer the style of roaming the map without being tied to a crown. It is the same freedom a DD experiences choosing their own fights on the map. Now, most of these healers who.. without a single doubt.. are among the most capable players that still play ESO today.. are being forced to leave ESO on Monday. You think these healers should be forced to group up just to play the game, after being among the best in their own right for years? Ridiculous.

I stopped caring about 1vX to the degree I used to when stamwarden and stamnecro became the end-all-be-all carries of PVP DD. 1vX in the current meta is a JOKE, as is performance. As is small-scale to a degree. There's always exceptions, but largely not these days. Point being, I love playing with these ungrouped healers whenever I come across them.. but I'm not going to force them to pocket heal me to dive headlong into numbers that NO DD can face on their own. Nor will I be forced to group just to take such an engagement should I choose to. We're faction members and always have been. This is and always has been AvAvA. Not groupvgroupvgroup.

Monday more than a few players will be leaving PVP that would have you eating your words with that image you posted. Even though I have no reliance at all on off heals in order to PVP and only DD, so will I go with them. ZoS is taking the open world aspect out of faction warfare and making it exist meaningfully only within groups of 12 max each. I don't care to run with 12 specific people and zerg down solos/etc, but I don't care to be grouped either. I never have nor they.

While Sgt makes a good point about transitioning more/all of smart healing to target-based healing.. If this change that is being done right now isn't going to save us from the lag, then these healing changes in particular should not be implemented until ZoS is able to rework skills/performance/coding/balance/etc along with the moving away from it. ZoS is driving people away from the game when PVP population is already suffering. Heavily.

SgtNuttzmeg

Thraben wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

When players zerg they get a lot of passive healing and buff. This helps to make squisher DDs more viable but as the same time it reduces the value a healer can bring to a group because these players already have these buffs and they are already getting healing. So these groups can typically make it by without a healer or with not very many healers but once you start looking at self contained groups. The more optimized ball groups, the ones that farm the tops of keeps without the aid of ambient healing from zergs, you will see most groups run several healers. Some will even run with up to a third or more of their raid comp comprised of healers. As groups start to notice the lack of ambient healing during these big fights, their will be a big push to get more healers in your group.

Now not every group will want to run a more optimized setup, not every group will require a specific number of healers but as people start to die quicker and people start to notice the lack of healing in key moments they will snag you up.

I suggest you start such a PuG group once a week to test your hypothesis.

I have run in many pug groups. I have lead pug groups before too. My points come from somebody that is fairly experienced in both a heavily optimized group play and completely unoptimized group play.

LostToTheSea wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Healers are mad they are going to have to work for their AP.

Reality is: healer outside of the group currently needs to cast at least one skill in order to get anything. ANY player in a group can go simi AFK (just stay close to the rest) and get AP as well. Also keep in mind that this supposedly lazy healer that earns nothing is in your group and when they do earn anything for whatever actions they perform it also applies to you too. In other words you are benefactor of it as well currently.

The mental gymnastics these people perform to justify their 'solo healer' playstyle is quite amusing. Kinda sad but amusing none the less.
I also always chuckle a bit when I hear someone call themselves a solo healer. As im picturing that person trying to BoL its enemy to death or something

The image gave me a good laugh, because in many cases that happens to be true. However, from playing ESO since 2015 as a strict 2 damage sets medium armor DD on a faction that was nearly always WAY outnumbered outside of primetime hours, especially on certain fronts (I'm talking often 4-12v60 or similar odds)(which I avoid primetime for obvious reasons)... Many of the best players I have ever seen in ESO were ungrouped healers that just went wherever or where they felt they were needed most. In fact, the majority of the best players in ESO are healers. All of them were pure skill and not meta chasing healers, as well.

It's not hard to meta carry yourself as a DD and pretend to be good or build yourself in a certain way to 1vX a bunch of potato players with a couple competent ones mixed in (vast majority of every 1vX clip ever made falls into one of these or both). It's extremely difficult to essentially 3-6vX an entire faction's zerg in or outside of a group. A few of them ran with a guild one night or two each week, but whenever you'd see them... they were ungrouped or "solo" facing odds most people simply avoid in favor of tower circling or PVDoor/zergsurfing. Yet, all of these healers I speak of actively prefer the style of roaming the map without being tied to a crown. It is the same freedom a DD experiences choosing their own fights on the map. Now, most of these healers who.. without a single doubt.. are among the most capable players that still play ESO today.. are being forced to leave ESO on Monday. You think these healers should be forced to group up just to play the game, after being among the best in their own right for years? Ridiculous.

I stopped caring about 1vX to the degree I used to when stamwarden and stamnecro became the end-all-be-all carries of PVP DD. 1vX in the current meta is a JOKE, as is performance. As is small-scale to a degree. There's always exceptions, but largely not these days. Point being, I love playing with these ungrouped healers whenever I come across them.. but I'm not going to force them to pocket heal me to dive headlong into numbers that NO DD can face on their own. Nor will I be forced to group just to take such an engagement should I choose to. We're faction members and always have been. This is and always has been AvAvA. Not groupvgroupvgroup.

Monday more than a few players will be leaving PVP that would have you eating your words with that image you posted. Even though I have no reliance at all on off heals in order to PVP and only DD, so will I go with them. ZoS is taking the open world aspect out of faction warfare and making it exist meaningfully only within groups of 12 max each. I don't care to run with 12 specific people and zerg down solos/etc, but I don't care to be grouped either. I never have nor they.

While Sgt makes a good point about transitioning more/all of smart healing to target-based healing.. If this change that is being done right now isn't going to save us from the lag, then these healing changes in particular should not be implemented until ZoS is able to rework skills/performance/coding/balance/etc along with the moving away from it. ZoS is driving people away from the game when PVP population is already suffering. Heavily.

LostToTheSea wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Healers are mad they are going to have to work for their AP.

Reality is: healer outside of the group currently needs to cast at least one skill in order to get anything. ANY player in a group can go simi AFK (just stay close to the rest) and get AP as well. Also keep in mind that this supposedly lazy healer that earns nothing is in your group and when they do earn anything for whatever actions they perform it also applies to you too. In other words you are benefactor of it as well currently.

The mental gymnastics these people perform to justify their 'solo healer' playstyle is quite amusing. Kinda sad but amusing none the less.
I also always chuckle a bit when I hear someone call themselves a solo healer. As im picturing that person trying to BoL its enemy to death or something

The image gave me a good laugh, because in many cases that happens to be true. However, from playing ESO since 2015 as a strict 2 damage sets medium armor DD on a faction that was nearly always WAY outnumbered outside of primetime hours, especially on certain fronts (I'm talking often 4-12v60 or similar odds)(which I avoid primetime for obvious reasons)... Many of the best players I have ever seen in ESO were ungrouped healers that just went wherever or where they felt they were needed most. In fact, the majority of the best players in ESO are healers. All of them were pure skill and not meta chasing healers, as well.

It's not hard to meta carry yourself as a DD and pretend to be good or build yourself in a certain way to 1vX a bunch of potato players with a couple competent ones mixed in (vast majority of every 1vX clip ever made falls into one of these or both). It's extremely difficult to essentially 3-6vX an entire faction's zerg in or outside of a group. A few of them ran with a guild one night or two each week, but whenever you'd see them... they were ungrouped or "solo" facing odds most people simply avoid in favor of tower circling or PVDoor/zergsurfing. Yet, all of these healers I speak of actively prefer the style of roaming the map without being tied to a crown. It is the same freedom a DD experiences choosing their own fights on the map. Now, most of these healers who.. without a single doubt.. are among the most capable players that still play ESO today.. are being forced to leave ESO on Monday. You think these healers should be forced to group up just to play the game, after being among the best in their own right for years? Ridiculous.

I stopped caring about 1vX to the degree I used to when stamwarden and stamnecro became the end-all-be-all carries of PVP DD. 1vX in the current meta is a JOKE, as is performance. As is small-scale to a degree. There's always exceptions, but largely not these days. Point being, I love playing with these ungrouped healers whenever I come across them.. but I'm not going to force them to pocket heal me to dive headlong into numbers that NO DD can face on their own. Nor will I be forced to group just to take such an engagement should I choose to. We're faction members and always have been. This is and always has been AvAvA. Not groupvgroupvgroup.

Monday more than a few players will be leaving PVP that would have you eating your words with that image you posted. Even though I have no reliance at all on off heals in order to PVP and only DD, so will I go with them. ZoS is taking the open world aspect out of faction warfare and making it exist meaningfully only within groups of 12 max each. I don't care to run with 12 specific people and zerg down solos/etc, but I don't care to be grouped either. I never have nor they.

While Sgt makes a good point about transitioning more/all of smart healing to target-based healing.. If this change that is being done right now isn't going to save us from the lag, then these healing changes in particular should not be implemented until ZoS is able to rework skills/performance/coding/balance/etc along with the moving away from it. ZoS is driving people away from the game when PVP population is already suffering. Heavily.

I am sure this change may cause people to leave the game. People will leave over any change. I am sure some people even left over the most recent changes to buffs/debuffs, even though these were wildly not opposed. But you do bring up a valid point. The PVP population is suffering atm. ZOS is in desperate need of doing something to drive interest back into it.

montjie

@LostToTheSea
I dont know what your beef with 1vx-ing is but its kinda sidetracking the discussion. Doesnt really matter though because at the end of the day its as simple as this:
general performance > the wants of a few
People have been demanding performance improvements for years. Now zos is finally looking to be heading into the right direction should we ditch this path because a select minority cant play the way they want to anymore? How is that for being entitled

I honestly would rather have 5% of the population butthurt or leave because theyre not getting their way anymore if that would mean the other 95% has a better gaming experience.

I for one really welcome this change. Days of hopping in a keep defense, fighting heavily outnumbered on the ground and watching your heals go to the wallflower spamming snipes or that nightblade in cloak waiting for an easy kill resulting in my death are gonna be over. Now if i die its gonna be by my own stupidity.....or lag

And who knows, maybe people will actually start learning how to play the game instead of crutching on zerging. But thats wishful thinking most likely

And in conclusion:
"We're faction members and always have been. This is and always has been AvAvA. Not groupvgroupvgroup."
This argument went out the window the second the game proved incapable of handling AvAvA the way its being played. Therefor you either change the way its being played, or you change the format. Exactly what zos is trying to do with these changes.

alterfenixeb17_ESO

LostToTheSea wrote: »

Monday more than a few players will be leaving PVP that would have you eating your words with that image you posted. Even though I have no reliance at all on off heals in order to PVP and only DD, so will I go with them. ZoS is taking the open world aspect out of faction warfare and making it exist meaningfully only within groups of 12 max each. I don't care to run with 12 specific people and zerg down solos/etc, but I don't care to be grouped either. I never have nor they.

Basically kind of healer player you mentioned is my point. Calling them leechers? Sure, just next time DPS that hits your target make sure to call them leeches too. After all they surely did no more than 1% work on your target and without them target would die anyway in a blink of an eye.
Also for those changes there is (for the time being that is) another option which is to actually explore some of those self-sufficient builds that can sustain some damage but hit from range. Perhaps reroll as sorc. Some stamina ranged with bow too. Tbh I am myself considering playing my stamplar that way since getting into group might become more challenging. And I am sure that some healers are as well evaluating such possibilities.

Dunning_Kruger

Thing is the reason why the faction pug stack meta is what it is; is because it’s effective at getting the job done with minimal effort (forming a group and coordinating). When cross healing is free people don’t see the need to group up to get support since cross damage still works obviously lmao and the heals are already there. But this won’t mean PvP will die when this change happens just that mindless faction stacking will be less effective; and that healers and grouping will be more important. All of the anecdotal when I login and type lfg I never find a group means nothing because it’s done in a meta where you aren’t forced or punished for not being a group. I think this is a good change mainly because it will actually promote community gameplay and punish people trying to play an mmo as a solo game. People bring up other mmos don’t do this! But other mmos usually have aura buff / healing restrictions to hard targeting or group specific restrictions (such as paladins use to be able to only bop party members in wow, may have changed). Anyways kind of a rant over but I don’t see how encouraging people to be IN a group is bad for an mmo.

LostToTheSea

montjie wrote: »

@LostToTheSea
I dont know what your beef with 1vx-ing is but its kinda sidetracking the discussion. Doesnt really matter though because at the end of the day its as simple as this:
general performance > the wants of a few
People have been demanding performance improvements for years. Now zos is finally looking to be heading into the right direction should we ditch this path because a select minority cant play the way they want to anymore? How is that for being entitled

I honestly would rather have 5% of the population butthurt or leave because theyre not getting their way anymore if that would mean the other 95% has a better gaming experience.

I for one really welcome this change. Days of hopping in a keep defense, fighting heavily outnumbered on the ground and watching your heals go to the wallflower spamming snipes or that nightblade in cloak waiting for an easy kill resulting in my death are gonna be over. Now if i die its gonna be by my own stupidity.....or lag

And who knows, maybe people will actually start learning how to play the game instead of crutching on zerging. But thats wishful thinking most likely

And in conclusion:
"We're faction members and always have been. This is and always has been AvAvA. Not groupvgroupvgroup."
This argument went out the window the second the game proved incapable of handling AvAvA the way its being played. Therefor you either change the way its being played, or you change the format. Exactly what zos is trying to do with these changes.

I love 1vX. You misread the point of my post there. Also, do you not play NA or is EU all ballgroups/24 mans right now? PC NA is mostly made up of ungrouped players, except for EP. Your "select minority" point holds no weight. We are talking far from 5% of the remaining population. Also, ZoS broke the game with several updates and never readdressed them (U25, lighting patch, etc). This has little to do with 'how the game is being played', outside of certain groups crutching on faulty mechanics lagging the server out and faction stacks. (need I remind some of you that the 'faction stacks' of today used to be considered nothing more than a fraction of a faction? When the game ran exponentially better than it does now....) Faction stacks are not going away and this healing change will have even more groups crutching on these lag inducing/poorly designed mechanics.This is not a significant performance change. This is a "behavioral change". Performance will remain trash even with these changes, as ZoS admits.

[snip] Only on these forums, in lesser numbers than the majority who have the sense to see the bigger picture, will you find people willing to support the idea of killing off open world AvAvA.

For the record, people constantly complaining about 'oh my heals are hitting some random' needed to long ago rethink their build if this is a major complaint of theirs. It's no matter now.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Tommy_The_Gun

Tbh. I think this is overall a bad change.

I mean, player base is being um "Segregated", to solo or group. It kinda sucks, as we will be playing same game, yet in a slightly different environment. New players will be the ones imho who will be affected by it the most. Remember what made eso great ? "Play as you want".

Simple example:
Imagine you are playing ANY type of content and you want to help others. PvP / PvE, overland, world boss, harrowstorm etc. Imagine the confusion if a player will cast some heals and... it wont do anything. I mean imagine that. How on earth is some one supposed to know that it did not worked, because players you are trying to help are in a group ? You have no way to know that. You are solo, so you can heal only other solo players. Fine. But who is playing solo ? I mean how can you possibly know that ? It will be a guessing game and the only way to know would be to waste same magicka on a heal that does nothing...

I can understand why it is being added. Personally, I think I wont be affected by it THAT much since I run mostly solo and have purge (yes, I run purge solo lol). But I think that the "guessing game" that we will have is kinda unacceptable. Since we will be "Segregated" to solo / group even more, at this point we should have some kind of visual feedback (like global player over-head symbol etc.) so we would know who is playing in a group or solo and is it even worth trying to go there & try to help. Otherwise, what you will get is confused players & guessing game.

Kinda bad design imho.

Also... is it just me or it is kinda a "rubber-band" attempt to fix the lag ?

montjie

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

Thing is the reason why the faction pug stack meta is what it is; is because it’s effective at getting the job done with minimal effort (forming a group and coordinating). When cross healing is free people don’t see the need to group up to get support since cross damage still works obviously lmao and the heals are already there. But this won’t mean PvP will die when this change happens just that mindless faction stacking will be less effective; and that healers and grouping will be more important. All of the anecdotal when I login and type lfg I never find a group means nothing because it’s done in a meta where you aren’t forced or punished for not being a group. I think this is a good change mainly because it will actually promote community gameplay and punish people trying to play an mmo as a solo game. People bring up other mmos don’t do this! But other mmos usually have aura buff / healing restrictions to hard targeting or group specific restrictions (such as paladins use to be able to only bop party members in wow, may have changed). Anyways kind of a rant over but I don’t see how encouraging people to be IN a group is bad for an mmo.

EXACTLY!

LostToTheSea wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

@LostToTheSea
I dont know what your beef with 1vx-ing is but its kinda sidetracking the discussion. Doesnt really matter though because at the end of the day its as simple as this:
general performance > the wants of a few
People have been demanding performance improvements for years. Now zos is finally looking to be heading into the right direction should we ditch this path because a select minority cant play the way they want to anymore? How is that for being entitled

I honestly would rather have 5% of the population butthurt or leave because theyre not getting their way anymore if that would mean the other 95% has a better gaming experience.

I for one really welcome this change. Days of hopping in a keep defense, fighting heavily outnumbered on the ground and watching your heals go to the wallflower spamming snipes or that nightblade in cloak waiting for an easy kill resulting in my death are gonna be over. Now if i die its gonna be by my own stupidity.....or lag

And who knows, maybe people will actually start learning how to play the game instead of crutching on zerging. But thats wishful thinking most likely

And in conclusion:
"We're faction members and always have been. This is and always has been AvAvA. Not groupvgroupvgroup."
This argument went out the window the second the game proved incapable of handling AvAvA the way its being played. Therefor you either change the way its being played, or you change the format. Exactly what zos is trying to do with these changes.

I love 1vX. You misread the point of my post there. Also, do you not play NA or is EU all ballgroups/24 mans right now? PC NA is mostly made up of ungrouped players, except for EP.
Havent been NA for a while with my ping being never under 200 there. And being frank, From my experiences they organize way more on NA server than on EU
Your "select minority" point holds no weight. We are talking far from 5% of the remaining population.
Yeah it does. Obviously the numbers I used are more of an indication as to how the ratio is. How am I supposed to get actual numbers of how many of ALL players run around as 'solo healers' Just by simple deducing and common sense you can conclude that those solo healers form quite a minority in the whole eso pvp community
Also, ZoS broke the game with several updates and never readdressed them (U25, lighting patch, etc). This has little to do with 'how the game is being played', outside of certain groups crutching on faulty mechanics lagging the server out and faction stacks.
It has all to do with how the game is being played. Zos messed the game up and changed it into something the status quo then couldnt handle anymore and still cant handle. No matter what you say, no matter how mad you get at zos for messing things up it wont change the fact things are messed up with terrible gameplay as a result. It was ok to run around spamming rapid regen like a carefree johnny when the server could handle it. Now it cant so something has to change. Its just as simple as that. Get over it.
(need I remind some of you that the 'faction stacks' of today used to be considered nothing more than a fraction of a faction? When the game ran exponentially better than it does now....) Faction stacks are not going away and this healing change will have even more groups crutching on these lag inducing/poorly designed mechanics.This is not a significant performance change. This is a "behavioral change". Performance will remain trash even with these changes, as ZoS admits.
There have been reports from console users already that they feel like performance has improved somewhat, maybe not game changing but an improvement none the less

[snip] Only on these forums, in lesser numbers than the majority who have the sense to see the bigger picture, will you find people willing to support the idea of killing off open world AvAvA.
[snip]

For the record, people constantly complaining about 'oh my heals are hitting some random' needed to long ago rethink their build if this is a major complaint of theirs. It's no matter now.
Wait, are you telling people who are complaining about not being able to play how they want, because the game prevents them in some way, to adapt?...Arent you being a bit of a hypocrite right now?

Let me also add how I cant help but laugh at the suggestion all hope is gone when zergsurfing healspammers cant do their thing anymore. Like the other 95% of the community cant heal themselves or something? Anyone throwing a hissyfit about how these changes negatively affects them is really just being entitled and selfish
Like i said before, perhaps the brainless derp player will start investing time in actually learning how to play now part of its carry is being taken away. People literally dont even know how to break free for gods sake.

alterfenixeb17_ESO

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tbh. I think this is overall a bad change.

I mean, player base is being um "Segregated", to solo or group. It kinda sucks, as we will be playing same game, yet in a slightly different environment. New players will be the ones imho who will be affected by it the most. Remember what made eso great ? "Play as you want".

Simple example:
Imagine you are playing ANY type of content and you want to help others. PvP / PvE, overland, world boss, harrowstorm etc. Imagine the confusion if a player will cast some heals and... it wont do anything. I mean imagine that. How on earth is some one supposed to know that it did not worked, because players you are trying to help are in a group ? You have no way to know that. You are solo, so you can heal only other solo players. Fine. But who is playing solo ? I mean how can you possibly know that ? It will be a guessing game and the only way to know would be to waste same magicka on a heal that does nothing...

I can understand why it is being added. Personally, I think I wont be affected by it THAT much since I run mostly solo and have purge (yes, I run purge solo lol). But I think that the "guessing game" that we will have is kinda unacceptable. Since we will be "Segregated" to solo / group even more, at this point we should have some kind of visual feedback (like global player over-head symbol etc.) so we would know who is playing in a group or solo and is it even worth trying to go there & try to help. Otherwise, what you will get is confused players & guessing game.

Kinda bad design imho.

Also... is it just me or it is kinda a "rubber-band" attempt to fix the lag ?

Regarding guessing;

• All group members have icon above their heads that you can see when they are nearby. That I believe every player knows after 6 years of Cyro, dungeons or trials.
• Also people indeed should be aware of who is the healer in their groups regardless of those changes tbh. Does not really take much as long as point 3 is met
• Group is always expected to play together so they are expected to follow the leader unless leader commands explicitly otherwise (like leader goes AFK for 5 min but then let's take some outpost in the meantime).

Ofc point 3 brings however other problem which is what if for some reason people in the group are incapable of sticking together (either leader has no control over group for some reason or generally they are idiots)? As a healer you either become useless from alliance pov (you cannot heal properly people since they are spread) or find another group but then risk finding another bunch of idiots doing stuff blindly and not recognizing anything else but i.e. constant Aleswell - Chalman train (or anything similar to that).

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

If ppl still want to "solo heal zerg" they can still do it after this change. They just need to swap their builds to be damage mitigation based 'healing'. Just requires a bit more work than looking at your faction and spamming heals to random targets that need healing.

Thraben

OK, let's be less subtle then:

1. People can still play an ungrouped healer, they just cannot do it any longer on their templar but have to use a warden. This might be unfortunate, but is still within the usual restrictions of the game's class system.

2. Group healers cannot become more important. In smaller groups everyone is typically a self-sustaining tank, and in larger organized groups the vast majority of the players are very able healers already. Even many Bombblade players (the strongest PvP DDs) quieu as healers in PvE.

3. PuG groups WOULD need more healers, yes. But they would need other things as well, namely: more players willing to lead them despite the fact that such a group will lose against about everything with only 12 players, and fully knowing that almost ALL of the skills the Pugs are using are utterly useless against opposition with a Purge and a Wall of Frost shield.

Since there won't be more PuG leaders willing to be farmed over and over again, the Cyro map will become more stale, newer players will have no chance to enjoy PvP, and faction stacks will be growing, as the solo players must hide in the swarm.

That's also what you could observe in the AoE test week 5.

Chaos2088

The change is a bad one, was hoping they would just boost the server to support what it was designed for, not cuttign things up/out to make it stable.

Maybe we all just get to light attack eachother soon as skills dont work.....

mrwizardguy

Where in the patch notes does it talk about this change? I can't seem to find text on it anywhere.

Reaper_00

montjie wrote: »

Anyone throwing a hissyfit about how these changes negatively affects them is really just being entitled and selfish

Hate to break this to you, but people play games for their own enjoyment, not for the enjoyment of some random person on the internet. That isn't selfish or entitled, that is what games are supposed to be about.

Solo healing never had a negative impact on the game, other than hurting the egos of some 1vXs who seem think they are entitled to the AP of anyone less geared or skilled or with higher ping than them.

This change is being made because the game is broken and this is the quickest thing they can think of to fix it. It has nothing to do with making players better PVP'ers.

Reaper_00

mrwizardguy wrote: »

Where in the patch notes does it talk about this change? I can't seem to find text on it anywhere.

It's not in the patch notes. It's in the post about the AoE testing

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/544305/details-for-aoe-testing-in-cyrodiil#latest

Tommy_The_Gun

alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tbh. I think this is overall a bad change.

I mean, player base is being um "Segregated", to solo or group. It kinda sucks, as we will be playing same game, yet in a slightly different environment. New players will be the ones imho who will be affected by it the most. Remember what made eso great ? "Play as you want".

Simple example:
Imagine you are playing ANY type of content and you want to help others. PvP / PvE, overland, world boss, harrowstorm etc. Imagine the confusion if a player will cast some heals and... it wont do anything. I mean imagine that. How on earth is some one supposed to know that it did not worked, because players you are trying to help are in a group ? You have no way to know that. You are solo, so you can heal only other solo players. Fine. But who is playing solo ? I mean how can you possibly know that ? It will be a guessing game and the only way to know would be to waste same magicka on a heal that does nothing...

I can understand why it is being added. Personally, I think I wont be affected by it THAT much since I run mostly solo and have purge (yes, I run purge solo lol). But I think that the "guessing game" that we will have is kinda unacceptable. Since we will be "Segregated" to solo / group even more, at this point we should have some kind of visual feedback (like global player over-head symbol etc.) so we would know who is playing in a group or solo and is it even worth trying to go there & try to help. Otherwise, what you will get is confused players & guessing game.

Kinda bad design imho.

Also... is it just me or it is kinda a "rubber-band" attempt to fix the lag ?

Regarding guessing;

• All group members have icon above their heads that you can see when they are nearby. That I believe every player knows after 6 years of Cyro, dungeons or trials.
• Also people indeed should be aware of who is the healer in their groups regardless of those changes tbh. Does not really take much as long as point 3 is met
• Group is always expected to play together so they are expected to follow the leader unless leader commands explicitly otherwise (like leader goes AFK for 5 min but then let's take some outpost in the meantime).

Ofc point 3 brings however other problem which is what if for some reason people in the group are incapable of sticking together (either leader has no control over group for some reason or generally they are idiots)? As a healer you either become useless from alliance pov (you cannot heal properly people since they are spread) or find another group but then risk finding another bunch of idiots doing stuff blindly and not recognizing anything else but i.e. constant Aleswell - Chalman train (or anything similar to that).

Sure, but there is no way a solo player will know who is grouped or is playing solo. They dont see any indicator at all. From their perspective it is all the same. That is why I said it will be a guessing game. There is simply no way to know that, till you waste same magicka & try t heal someone. And once it wont work, you will be confused why it did not worked.

Remember, ESO is a great game because for the most part it stays true to its motto: "play as you want". So if someone likes to play a solo healer (ungrouped) - then they can. But the changes to cross-healing without any form of indication who they can help, is kinda like a slap in face. Now, I play mostly solo (not a healer) and I can handle "healing myself", but I am also kinda "empathic" so I can understand that a lot of players are upset. It is a well.. "nerf" for them, and no one likes nerfs.

That is why I think a simple, global visual feedback can be a good idea and act as a supplement or stop-gap solution.

idk

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

So, do these upcoming changes mean that I will no longer be able to use Nature's Grasp (Warden vine skill) to swing off of randoms?

I never tested that ability during the testing environment. There was also some confusion about how Siege shield works and whether or not it would apply it's effects to siege used by people outside of your party.

I would suggest that every skill in the support skill line should only affect allies in the same group without exception outside of flare since that affects enemies. Even though I disagree with this change, Zos needs to be consistent with how they implement it or it will appear very unprofessional in it's implementation.

renne

alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »

Regarding guessing;

• All group members have icon above their heads that you can see when they are nearby. That I believe every player knows after 6 years of Cyro, dungeons or trials.

Uhhhhhh people not in the group don't see these icons so yes, actually, they will absolutely be guessing if someone else is grouped or not. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

biminirwb17_ESO

It may stop a stick wielding personage standing in front of me on the wall impeding my view so I cant snipe spam

alterfenixeb17_ESO

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tbh. I think this is overall a bad change.

I mean, player base is being um "Segregated", to solo or group. It kinda sucks, as we will be playing same game, yet in a slightly different environment. New players will be the ones imho who will be affected by it the most. Remember what made eso great ? "Play as you want".

Simple example:
Imagine you are playing ANY type of content and you want to help others. PvP / PvE, overland, world boss, harrowstorm etc. Imagine the confusion if a player will cast some heals and... it wont do anything. I mean imagine that. How on earth is some one supposed to know that it did not worked, because players you are trying to help are in a group ? You have no way to know that. You are solo, so you can heal only other solo players. Fine. But who is playing solo ? I mean how can you possibly know that ? It will be a guessing game and the only way to know would be to waste same magicka on a heal that does nothing...

I can understand why it is being added. Personally, I think I wont be affected by it THAT much since I run mostly solo and have purge (yes, I run purge solo lol). But I think that the "guessing game" that we will have is kinda unacceptable. Since we will be "Segregated" to solo / group even more, at this point we should have some kind of visual feedback (like global player over-head symbol etc.) so we would know who is playing in a group or solo and is it even worth trying to go there & try to help. Otherwise, what you will get is confused players & guessing game.

Kinda bad design imho.

Also... is it just me or it is kinda a "rubber-band" attempt to fix the lag ?

Regarding guessing;

• All group members have icon above their heads that you can see when they are nearby. That I believe every player knows after 6 years of Cyro, dungeons or trials.
• Also people indeed should be aware of who is the healer in their groups regardless of those changes tbh. Does not really take much as long as point 3 is met
• Group is always expected to play together so they are expected to follow the leader unless leader commands explicitly otherwise (like leader goes AFK for 5 min but then let's take some outpost in the meantime).

Ofc point 3 brings however other problem which is what if for some reason people in the group are incapable of sticking together (either leader has no control over group for some reason or generally they are idiots)? As a healer you either become useless from alliance pov (you cannot heal properly people since they are spread) or find another group but then risk finding another bunch of idiots doing stuff blindly and not recognizing anything else but i.e. constant Aleswell - Chalman train (or anything similar to that).

Sure, but there is no way a solo player will know who is grouped or is playing solo. They dont see any indicator at all. From their perspective it is all the same. That is why I said it will be a guessing game. There is simply no way to know that, till you waste same magicka & try t heal someone. And once it wont work, you will be confused why it did not worked.

Remember, ESO is a great game because for the most part it stays true to its motto: "play as you want". So if someone likes to play a solo healer (ungrouped) - then they can. But the changes to cross-healing without any form of indication who they can help, is kinda like a slap in face. Now, I play mostly solo (not a healer) and I can handle "healing myself", but I am also kinda "empathic" so I can understand that a lot of players are upset. It is a well.. "nerf" for them, and no one likes nerfs.

That is why I think a simple, global visual feedback can be a good idea and act as a supplement or stop-gap solution.

Why would you want to know it tbh since the way it currently works (and worked during testing) is that you cannot heal or be healed by anyone who is not grouped with you specifically? it makes no difference if guy next to you has any group or not. What matter is only if they are in same group as you are.