Behavioral changes

Dunning_Kruger

Why does every build get to Zerg surf excerpt healing? Sure easy answer here.
Because healing in EsO is [snip] easy.
In most mmos you have to manage mana (“eso resource management in 2020 is easy af”); time defensive healing cooldowns; and actually target your friendlies to heal them.

[snip]

Smart healing is likely not going away, so your ass is finding a group. [snip]

For all the I’m uninstalling to play other mmos !? Go enjoy solo healing in games where you have to target the right person to heal and manage resources /cooldowns. You will be staring at your zenimax launcher reinstalling.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I still don't get the logic of the argument "I can't solo heal and go where I want to" against behavioral change. There is no such thing as "solo healing". If you're playing a healer, then you are most likely zerging, period. I mean, how else are you going to heal when no people are there to heal? People who claim they solo heal are like those "solo players" that claim they solo but actually surf in a large zerg. Why not just get in a group and be more productive? The group is only good if everyone's in sync, and if you're not agreeing with the leader then simply leave and form your own groups. Cyrodiil is full of uncoordinated players who will gladly join a group you form. Why is it so hard to understand lol?

Healers basically want to do the same thing most DPS have done since launch: do their own thing while zerg-surfing without being singularly blamed for all the lag caused in Cyrodiil.

The majority of players in a faction stack are "solo" DPS who seem to have no problem pointing accusatory fingers and pretending that when they spam skills and flood the server with calculations for proc sets, double dot poisons, status effects, etc., their behavior is not noticeably contributing to server overload. If you play in Cyrodiil on anything, you are most likely zerging, period.

Since you can;t seem to grasp why people might not want to just join a PuG group despite the many responses in this thread, why don't you experience for yourself. EVERY time you log into cyrodiil type LFG and see how it goes for say a year.

if you are a healer wanting to faction surf but still want to heal people just invite everyone who types LFG yourself and start to surf the faction - if people want heals they will come to you.

Same as before except clicking twice on names in chat (or downloading auto invite).

badmojo

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I still don't get the logic of the argument "I can't solo heal and go where I want to" against behavioral change. There is no such thing as "solo healing". If you're playing a healer, then you are most likely zerging, period. I mean, how else are you going to heal when no people are there to heal? People who claim they solo heal are like those "solo players" that claim they solo but actually surf in a large zerg. Why not just get in a group and be more productive? The group is only good if everyone's in sync, and if you're not agreeing with the leader then simply leave and form your own groups. Cyrodiil is full of uncoordinated players who will gladly join a group you form. Why is it so hard to understand lol?

Healers basically want to do the same thing most DPS have done since launch: do their own thing while zerg-surfing without being singularly blamed for all the lag caused in Cyrodiil.

The majority of players in a faction stack are "solo" DPS who seem to have no problem pointing accusatory fingers and pretending that when they spam skills and flood the server with calculations for proc sets, double dot poisons, status effects, etc., their behavior is not noticeably contributing to server overload. If you play in Cyrodiil on anything, you are most likely zerging, period.

Since you can;t seem to grasp why people might not want to just join a PuG group despite the many responses in this thread, why don't you experience for yourself. EVERY time you log into cyrodiil type LFG and see how it goes for say a year.

if you are a healer wanting to faction surf but still want to heal people just invite everyone who types LFG yourself and start to surf the faction - if people want heals they will come to you.

Same as before except clicking twice on names in chat (or downloading auto invite).

Same as before? Are you seriously comparing healing 11 randoms who type LFG to healing an entire faction?

VaranisArano

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I still don't get the logic of the argument "I can't solo heal and go where I want to" against behavioral change. There is no such thing as "solo healing". If you're playing a healer, then you are most likely zerging, period. I mean, how else are you going to heal when no people are there to heal? People who claim they solo heal are like those "solo players" that claim they solo but actually surf in a large zerg. Why not just get in a group and be more productive? The group is only good if everyone's in sync, and if you're not agreeing with the leader then simply leave and form your own groups. Cyrodiil is full of uncoordinated players who will gladly join a group you form. Why is it so hard to understand lol?

Healers basically want to do the same thing most DPS have done since launch: do their own thing while zerg-surfing without being singularly blamed for all the lag caused in Cyrodiil.

The majority of players in a faction stack are "solo" DPS who seem to have no problem pointing accusatory fingers and pretending that when they spam skills and flood the server with calculations for proc sets, double dot poisons, status effects, etc., their behavior is not noticeably contributing to server overload. If you play in Cyrodiil on anything, you are most likely zerging, period.

Since you can;t seem to grasp why people might not want to just join a PuG group despite the many responses in this thread, why don't you experience for yourself. EVERY time you log into cyrodiil type LFG and see how it goes for say a year.

if you are a healer wanting to faction surf but still want to heal people just invite everyone who types LFG yourself and start to surf the faction - if people want heals they will come to you.

Same as before except clicking twice on names in chat (or downloading auto invite).

So..."start your own group" as a solution?

I already addressed the reasons why I no longer lead PUGs in an earlier comment. I have led LFG players before and it is not comparable to the gameplay Joy_Division describes that healers used to be able to do.

When my PVP guild isn't on, I want to heal when and where I want to (which included, but wasn't always zergsurfing) without being tied to a PUG crown, stuck with PUG teammates who don't bring siege or scatter in a fight, or forced to lead my own group (of PUGs who don't bring siege and scatter in a fight, natch.) Since ZOS apparently likes making these my only options, my PVP healer is only going to be running with my guild, because they actually bring siege and don't act like my heals are friendly fire.

Soul_Demon

Reverb wrote: »

Interesting though that they have introduced mechanics counter to their desired behavior.

The manipulate group size and ally targeted effects, to manipulate player behavior and force smaller fights, but keep Volundrung in the game to favor the highest population and encourage faction stacking (else lose the map).

They remove deer and glow bugs to reduce server calculations, but they put buffed NPCs at spawn locations all over the map. Also scores of crown store mounts with heavy particle effects.

They obviously have no clear direction.

Well, when you look at it objectively you see that forcing small groups of 12 players creates an environment where if a new player tries to get into one of those groups they are nothing more than a liability until they are performing at top level. 12 mans can only carry maybe two players at anytime who are not fully trained- larger groups of 24 can carry much more new and learning players at a time......so the result of shifting to 12 mans is casual/new players will really not have many opportunities to learn how to play or improve outside of solo play.

If you play solo you stand no chance to take on these ball groups at all..No chance and even more so with healers not able to heal the random groups or others sharing buffs. Most of the new and learning players will not stay in cyro long or bother to try and learn- the result is the new players will stop coming to cyro and being able to improve without being farmed or pushed out - the game experience for them will be horrible. Ganked or run over and farmed by ball groups until they leave and no 12 mans can tolerate to pick them up in meaningful numbers- its just not fun to be farmed or ganked non stop till you finally quit because no one is picking up players and teaching them how to play out in that environment, and make no mistake no one will.

By reducing group size and also taking away heals/buffs outside those groups what they have done is really removed most opportunities for new players to be learn how to play, as casual players....most players start as casual and become more involved as they learn......this removes that chance almost entirely as 12 mans can only tolerate so much and the new players are nothing more than bombs- Its quite inevitable that the zone will die eventually and become ball groups and gankers- nothing more. There is no other play this change can possibly cause beyond that end result.

But if you are a ballgroup this is godsend. Its the perfect storm for them for sure- ungrouped players who dont know much are not a threat at all to them, most will perish in first wave of sub assault, fear, fear, fear- dead. Stunlock and no one will be able to pick up newer players to explain what to try to avoid that due to them being liabilities with VD bombs they rely on after the stun locks so no one will pick them up in groups.

Beaverton

Last night in Grey Host PC/NA was pretty fun as an AD player. It seemed like there were multiple groups of 12 that were hitting different targets all night. The group I was in got wiped by either the EP or DC zerg when they showed up but in the meantime, the other AD groups were taking multiple objectives. The zergs couldn't keep up by taking only one objective at a time.

Is that the behavior change they speak of?

The lag did seem better even though all factions were pop locked. And I only DC'd twice.

Satiar

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Interesting though that they have introduced mechanics counter to their desired behavior.

The manipulate group size and ally targeted effects, to manipulate player behavior and force smaller fights, but keep Volundrung in the game to favor the highest population and encourage faction stacking (else lose the map).

They remove deer and glow bugs to reduce server calculations, but they put buffed NPCs at spawn locations all over the map. Also scores of crown store mounts with heavy particle effects.

They obviously have no clear direction.

Well, when you look at it objectively you see that forcing small groups of 12 players creates an environment where if a new player tries to get into one of those groups they are nothing more than a liability until they are performing at top level. 12 mans can only carry maybe two players at anytime who are not fully trained- larger groups of 24 can carry much more new and learning players at a time......so the result of shifting to 12 mans is casual/new players will really not have many opportunities to learn how to play or improve outside of solo play.

If you play solo you stand no chance to take on these ball groups at all..No chance and even more so with healers not able to heal the random groups or others sharing buffs. Most of the new and learning players will not stay in cyro long or bother to try and learn- the result is the new players will stop coming to cyro and being able to improve without being farmed or pushed out - the game experience for them will be horrible. Ganked or run over and farmed by ball groups until they leave and no 12 mans can tolerate to pick them up in meaningful numbers- its just not fun to be farmed or ganked non stop till you finally quit because no one is picking up players and teaching them how to play out in that environment, and make no mistake no one will.

By reducing group size and also taking away heals/buffs outside those groups what they have done is really removed most opportunities for new players to be learn how to play, as casual players....most players start as casual and become more involved as they learn......this removes that chance almost entirely as 12 mans can only tolerate so much and the new players are nothing more than bombs- Its quite inevitable that the zone will die eventually and become ball groups and gankers- nothing more. There is no other play this change can possibly cause beyond that end result.

But if you are a ballgroup this is godsend. Its the perfect storm for them for sure- ungrouped players who dont know much are not a threat at all to them, most will perish in first wave of sub assault, fear, fear, fear- dead. Stunlock and no one will be able to pick up newer players to explain what to try to avoid that due to them being liabilities with VD bombs they rely on after the stun locks so no one will pick them up in groups.

I don’t think vet players realize how confusing and utterly uncounterable a group like this is to a new player.

FENGRUSH

VaranisArano wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I still don't get the logic of the argument "I can't solo heal and go where I want to" against behavioral change. There is no such thing as "solo healing". If you're playing a healer, then you are most likely zerging, period. I mean, how else are you going to heal when no people are there to heal? People who claim they solo heal are like those "solo players" that claim they solo but actually surf in a large zerg. Why not just get in a group and be more productive? The group is only good if everyone's in sync, and if you're not agreeing with the leader then simply leave and form your own groups. Cyrodiil is full of uncoordinated players who will gladly join a group you form. Why is it so hard to understand lol?

Healers basically want to do the same thing most DPS have done since launch: do their own thing while zerg-surfing without being singularly blamed for all the lag caused in Cyrodiil.

The majority of players in a faction stack are "solo" DPS who seem to have no problem pointing accusatory fingers and pretending that when they spam skills and flood the server with calculations for proc sets, double dot poisons, status effects, etc., their behavior is not noticeably contributing to server overload. If you play in Cyrodiil on anything, you are most likely zerging, period.

Since you can;t seem to grasp why people might not want to just join a PuG group despite the many responses in this thread, why don't you experience for yourself. EVERY time you log into cyrodiil type LFG and see how it goes for say a year.

if you are a healer wanting to faction surf but still want to heal people just invite everyone who types LFG yourself and start to surf the faction - if people want heals they will come to you.

Same as before except clicking twice on names in chat (or downloading auto invite).

So..."start your own group" as a solution?

I already addressed the reasons why I no longer lead PUGs in an earlier comment. I have led LFG players before and it is not comparable to the gameplay Joy_Division describes that healers used to be able to do.

When my PVP guild isn't on, I want to heal when and where I want to (which included, but wasn't always zergsurfing) without being tied to a PUG crown, stuck with PUG teammates who don't bring siege or scatter in a fight, or forced to lead my own group (of PUGs who don't bring siege and scatter in a fight, natch.) Since ZOS apparently likes making these my only options, my PVP healer is only going to be running with my guild, because they actually bring siege and don't act like my heals are friendly fire.

This is part of the behavior target. Faction stacks are propped up by randoms able to cross heal *everyone*. Harder to faction stack with this change and survive simply by having healers scattered everywhere spamming smart heals.

Soul_Demon

Satiar wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Interesting though that they have introduced mechanics counter to their desired behavior.

The manipulate group size and ally targeted effects, to manipulate player behavior and force smaller fights, but keep Volundrung in the game to favor the highest population and encourage faction stacking (else lose the map).

They remove deer and glow bugs to reduce server calculations, but they put buffed NPCs at spawn locations all over the map. Also scores of crown store mounts with heavy particle effects.

They obviously have no clear direction.

Well, when you look at it objectively you see that forcing small groups of 12 players creates an environment where if a new player tries to get into one of those groups they are nothing more than a liability until they are performing at top level. 12 mans can only carry maybe two players at anytime who are not fully trained- larger groups of 24 can carry much more new and learning players at a time......so the result of shifting to 12 mans is casual/new players will really not have many opportunities to learn how to play or improve outside of solo play.

If you play solo you stand no chance to take on these ball groups at all..No chance and even more so with healers not able to heal the random groups or others sharing buffs. Most of the new and learning players will not stay in cyro long or bother to try and learn- the result is the new players will stop coming to cyro and being able to improve without being farmed or pushed out - the game experience for them will be horrible. Ganked or run over and farmed by ball groups until they leave and no 12 mans can tolerate to pick them up in meaningful numbers- its just not fun to be farmed or ganked non stop till you finally quit because no one is picking up players and teaching them how to play out in that environment, and make no mistake no one will.

By reducing group size and also taking away heals/buffs outside those groups what they have done is really removed most opportunities for new players to be learn how to play, as casual players....most players start as casual and become more involved as they learn......this removes that chance almost entirely as 12 mans can only tolerate so much and the new players are nothing more than bombs- Its quite inevitable that the zone will die eventually and become ball groups and gankers- nothing more. There is no other play this change can possibly cause beyond that end result.

But if you are a ballgroup this is godsend. Its the perfect storm for them for sure- ungrouped players who dont know much are not a threat at all to them, most will perish in first wave of sub assault, fear, fear, fear- dead. Stunlock and no one will be able to pick up newer players to explain what to try to avoid that due to them being liabilities with VD bombs they rely on after the stun locks so no one will pick them up in groups.

I don’t think vet players realize how confusing and utterly uncounterable a group like this is to a new player.

Agreed....its play they have long since left behind and probably have trouble remembering. I think the ball groups even underestimate where they will find competent players to replace those in ball groups who leave over time...most of the time they recruited players who learned somewhere to play- but if that stops- the flow of 'experienced' players to replace those who leave stops too. Ultimately it impacts all players at some point.

Faded

FENGRUSH wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I still don't get the logic of the argument "I can't solo heal and go where I want to" against behavioral change. There is no such thing as "solo healing". If you're playing a healer, then you are most likely zerging, period. I mean, how else are you going to heal when no people are there to heal? People who claim they solo heal are like those "solo players" that claim they solo but actually surf in a large zerg. Why not just get in a group and be more productive? The group is only good if everyone's in sync, and if you're not agreeing with the leader then simply leave and form your own groups. Cyrodiil is full of uncoordinated players who will gladly join a group you form. Why is it so hard to understand lol?

Healers basically want to do the same thing most DPS have done since launch: do their own thing while zerg-surfing without being singularly blamed for all the lag caused in Cyrodiil.

The majority of players in a faction stack are "solo" DPS who seem to have no problem pointing accusatory fingers and pretending that when they spam skills and flood the server with calculations for proc sets, double dot poisons, status effects, etc., their behavior is not noticeably contributing to server overload. If you play in Cyrodiil on anything, you are most likely zerging, period.

Since you can;t seem to grasp why people might not want to just join a PuG group despite the many responses in this thread, why don't you experience for yourself. EVERY time you log into cyrodiil type LFG and see how it goes for say a year.

if you are a healer wanting to faction surf but still want to heal people just invite everyone who types LFG yourself and start to surf the faction - if people want heals they will come to you.

Same as before except clicking twice on names in chat (or downloading auto invite).

So..."start your own group" as a solution?

I already addressed the reasons why I no longer lead PUGs in an earlier comment. I have led LFG players before and it is not comparable to the gameplay Joy_Division describes that healers used to be able to do.

When my PVP guild isn't on, I want to heal when and where I want to (which included, but wasn't always zergsurfing) without being tied to a PUG crown, stuck with PUG teammates who don't bring siege or scatter in a fight, or forced to lead my own group (of PUGs who don't bring siege and scatter in a fight, natch.) Since ZOS apparently likes making these my only options, my PVP healer is only going to be running with my guild, because they actually bring siege and don't act like my heals are friendly fire.

This is part of the behavior target. Faction stacks are propped up by randoms able to cross heal *everyone*. Harder to faction stack with this change and survive simply by having healers scattered everywhere spamming smart heals.

Down with the faction stack, up with the three groups of twelve they might have defended Glade from while the real PVPers are elsewhere being amazing. DC's faction stack is pretty great actually, scrappy and quick to learn, shame you don't know that.

Given that ZOS has said this change isn't implemented or expected to improve performance, what outcome are you hoping for here? Casual randoms and noobs will be forced to immediately get gud and turn into you, play as you do since that's clearly the only correct way? That's not how it works man. The ones who are going to do that were already headed for it. And it's been way too long since you've chilled with your faction's noobs, the learning curve in Cyro was steep enough already.

Joy_Division

FENGRUSH wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I still don't get the logic of the argument "I can't solo heal and go where I want to" against behavioral change. There is no such thing as "solo healing". If you're playing a healer, then you are most likely zerging, period. I mean, how else are you going to heal when no people are there to heal? People who claim they solo heal are like those "solo players" that claim they solo but actually surf in a large zerg. Why not just get in a group and be more productive? The group is only good if everyone's in sync, and if you're not agreeing with the leader then simply leave and form your own groups. Cyrodiil is full of uncoordinated players who will gladly join a group you form. Why is it so hard to understand lol?

Healers basically want to do the same thing most DPS have done since launch: do their own thing while zerg-surfing without being singularly blamed for all the lag caused in Cyrodiil.

The majority of players in a faction stack are "solo" DPS who seem to have no problem pointing accusatory fingers and pretending that when they spam skills and flood the server with calculations for proc sets, double dot poisons, status effects, etc., their behavior is not noticeably contributing to server overload. If you play in Cyrodiil on anything, you are most likely zerging, period.

Since you can;t seem to grasp why people might not want to just join a PuG group despite the many responses in this thread, why don't you experience for yourself. EVERY time you log into cyrodiil type LFG and see how it goes for say a year.

if you are a healer wanting to faction surf but still want to heal people just invite everyone who types LFG yourself and start to surf the faction - if people want heals they will come to you.

Same as before except clicking twice on names in chat (or downloading auto invite).

So..."start your own group" as a solution?

I already addressed the reasons why I no longer lead PUGs in an earlier comment. I have led LFG players before and it is not comparable to the gameplay Joy_Division describes that healers used to be able to do.

When my PVP guild isn't on, I want to heal when and where I want to (which included, but wasn't always zergsurfing) without being tied to a PUG crown, stuck with PUG teammates who don't bring siege or scatter in a fight, or forced to lead my own group (of PUGs who don't bring siege and scatter in a fight, natch.) Since ZOS apparently likes making these my only options, my PVP healer is only going to be running with my guild, because they actually bring siege and don't act like my heals are friendly fire.

This is part of the behavior target. Faction stacks are propped up by randoms able to cross heal *everyone*. Harder to faction stack with this change and survive simply by having healers scattered everywhere spamming smart heals.

From your point of view.

Somehow the random ungrouped healer has become the scapegoat for server calculations and lag when it is obvious to anyone who has played since Launch or read zone chat on a weekend night that it's the organized raids whose presence tanks performance, aside from the balance issues their potency has caused.

Yet somehow ZOS decides to make them relatively stronger because everyone one of their members can always heal/buff each other whereas that's not the case for the players they farm.

It's no surprise at all that some high profile players who run in organized raids are applauding these changes, even tough ZOS has admitted it did not have the impact on performance they were looking for. So spare me the justifications about performance; It's about wanting to play in an environment where the rules and mechanics are both convenient and favorable to them while being unfavorable to their opponents.

I remember years ago how you were a very prominent critic of AoE caps because you were frustrated that your abilities were artificially nerfed/reduced in effectiveness because of inconsistent rules/mechanics that favored the people you fought against.

My my, how things have changed over the years.

VaranisArano

FENGRUSH wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I still don't get the logic of the argument "I can't solo heal and go where I want to" against behavioral change. There is no such thing as "solo healing". If you're playing a healer, then you are most likely zerging, period. I mean, how else are you going to heal when no people are there to heal? People who claim they solo heal are like those "solo players" that claim they solo but actually surf in a large zerg. Why not just get in a group and be more productive? The group is only good if everyone's in sync, and if you're not agreeing with the leader then simply leave and form your own groups. Cyrodiil is full of uncoordinated players who will gladly join a group you form. Why is it so hard to understand lol?

Healers basically want to do the same thing most DPS have done since launch: do their own thing while zerg-surfing without being singularly blamed for all the lag caused in Cyrodiil.

The majority of players in a faction stack are "solo" DPS who seem to have no problem pointing accusatory fingers and pretending that when they spam skills and flood the server with calculations for proc sets, double dot poisons, status effects, etc., their behavior is not noticeably contributing to server overload. If you play in Cyrodiil on anything, you are most likely zerging, period.

Since you can;t seem to grasp why people might not want to just join a PuG group despite the many responses in this thread, why don't you experience for yourself. EVERY time you log into cyrodiil type LFG and see how it goes for say a year.

if you are a healer wanting to faction surf but still want to heal people just invite everyone who types LFG yourself and start to surf the faction - if people want heals they will come to you.

Same as before except clicking twice on names in chat (or downloading auto invite).

So..."start your own group" as a solution?

I already addressed the reasons why I no longer lead PUGs in an earlier comment. I have led LFG players before and it is not comparable to the gameplay Joy_Division describes that healers used to be able to do.

When my PVP guild isn't on, I want to heal when and where I want to (which included, but wasn't always zergsurfing) without being tied to a PUG crown, stuck with PUG teammates who don't bring siege or scatter in a fight, or forced to lead my own group (of PUGs who don't bring siege and scatter in a fight, natch.) Since ZOS apparently likes making these my only options, my PVP healer is only going to be running with my guild, because they actually bring siege and don't act like my heals are friendly fire.

This is part of the behavior target. Faction stacks are propped up by randoms able to cross heal *everyone*. Harder to faction stack with this change and survive simply by having healers scattered everywhere spamming smart heals.

I mean, kinda?

I'm not sure how much cross-healing ungrouped healers were really creating on the faction stack vs the cross-healing pumped out by group healers from the groups that the faction stack formed around.

Sometimes the faction stack is just a mass of PUGs and randoms with no guild groups, but more often than not, there's an organized guild group (or organized streamer group) at their core, pushing on to the next objectives. PUGs and randoms congregate around them organically "zergsurfing" because that's where the fights are.

It seems to me this that cross-healing by grouped healers to players who zergsurfing off them, particular the sort of heal spam that organized raid healers can pump out, is the the behavior ZOS targeted. Grouped healers put out a lot more cross- heals than ungrouped healers because the grouped ones are the only people running dedicated healer builds and defended by competent groupmates. So this change means no more hanger-on randoms getting my sweet cross-heals and group buffs while I'm keeping my guildmates alive in a fight.

At least, when I ran ungrouped or with PUGs, I was not outputting the same amount of healing as when I was playing with my guildmates. Certainly, nowhere near the same amount of skills like Purge, because I can't sustain like I can in a group with good support sets. My "healing footprint", as it were, is smaller playing ungrouped than it is playing in an organized group.

The result of these changes is fantastic from the perspective of any PVP guild or streamer who can run with dedicated healers and who's players are coordinated enough to stay within the range of heal spam and support sets.


The other problem: they took that nerfhammer to every fight in Cyrodiil, not just the faction stack. I can't even heal/buff a random faction mate I see getting ambushed unless we group up. That's way outside of any "nerf the faction stack" goals.

Faded

VaranisArano wrote: »

The other problem: they took that nerfhammer to every fight in Cyrodiil, not just the faction stack. I can't even heal/buff a random faction mate I see getting ambushed unless we group up. That's way outside of any "nerf the faction stack" goals.

A fairly common occurrence. The "let's go get our resource back" scenario happens a lot too, it's going to be irritating watching people have to eat that extra disadvantage or just avoid small fights.

So much under the bus, but yay somehow this will make people stack less or at least that stack will die faster or maybe we'll get 1 more fps in big fights. Surely.

FENGRUSH

Joy_Division wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I still don't get the logic of the argument "I can't solo heal and go where I want to" against behavioral change. There is no such thing as "solo healing". If you're playing a healer, then you are most likely zerging, period. I mean, how else are you going to heal when no people are there to heal? People who claim they solo heal are like those "solo players" that claim they solo but actually surf in a large zerg. Why not just get in a group and be more productive? The group is only good if everyone's in sync, and if you're not agreeing with the leader then simply leave and form your own groups. Cyrodiil is full of uncoordinated players who will gladly join a group you form. Why is it so hard to understand lol?

Healers basically want to do the same thing most DPS have done since launch: do their own thing while zerg-surfing without being singularly blamed for all the lag caused in Cyrodiil.

The majority of players in a faction stack are "solo" DPS who seem to have no problem pointing accusatory fingers and pretending that when they spam skills and flood the server with calculations for proc sets, double dot poisons, status effects, etc., their behavior is not noticeably contributing to server overload. If you play in Cyrodiil on anything, you are most likely zerging, period.

Since you can;t seem to grasp why people might not want to just join a PuG group despite the many responses in this thread, why don't you experience for yourself. EVERY time you log into cyrodiil type LFG and see how it goes for say a year.

if you are a healer wanting to faction surf but still want to heal people just invite everyone who types LFG yourself and start to surf the faction - if people want heals they will come to you.

Same as before except clicking twice on names in chat (or downloading auto invite).

So..."start your own group" as a solution?

I already addressed the reasons why I no longer lead PUGs in an earlier comment. I have led LFG players before and it is not comparable to the gameplay Joy_Division describes that healers used to be able to do.

When my PVP guild isn't on, I want to heal when and where I want to (which included, but wasn't always zergsurfing) without being tied to a PUG crown, stuck with PUG teammates who don't bring siege or scatter in a fight, or forced to lead my own group (of PUGs who don't bring siege and scatter in a fight, natch.) Since ZOS apparently likes making these my only options, my PVP healer is only going to be running with my guild, because they actually bring siege and don't act like my heals are friendly fire.

This is part of the behavior target. Faction stacks are propped up by randoms able to cross heal *everyone*. Harder to faction stack with this change and survive simply by having healers scattered everywhere spamming smart heals.

From your point of view.

Somehow the random ungrouped healer has become the scapegoat for server calculations and lag when it is obvious to anyone who has played since Launch or read zone chat on a weekend night that it's the organized raids whose presence tanks performance, aside from the balance issues their potency has caused.

Yet somehow ZOS decides to make them relatively stronger because everyone one of their members can always heal/buff each other whereas that's not the case for the players they farm.

It's no surprise at all that some high profile players who run in organized raids are applauding these changes, even tough ZOS has admitted it did not have the impact on performance they were looking for. So spare me the justifications about performance; It's about wanting to play in an environment where the rules and mechanics are both convenient and favorable to them while being unfavorable to their opponents.

I remember years ago how you were a very prominent critic of AoE caps because you were frustrated that your abilities were artificially nerfed/reduced in effectiveness because of inconsistent rules/mechanics that favored the people you fought against.

My my, how things have changed over the years.

Aoe caps were bad, how is that different? That also contributed to stacking issues. Theres nothing wrong with group play. The way the maps designed with faction stacks is not good.

This change by itself isnt a solution for macro level issues. Can check out a video I did talking about these things for a while. I presume those who's minds are made up and just hate on pretty much anything I say wont watch. But that's your choice. I'm still for adding single target healing outside of groups. Not the smart healing ones though.

https://youtu.be/LPj2eox5me8

VaranisArano

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Interesting though that they have introduced mechanics counter to their desired behavior.

The manipulate group size and ally targeted effects, to manipulate player behavior and force smaller fights, but keep Volundrung in the game to favor the highest population and encourage faction stacking (else lose the map).

They remove deer and glow bugs to reduce server calculations, but they put buffed NPCs at spawn locations all over the map. Also scores of crown store mounts with heavy particle effects.

They obviously have no clear direction.

Well, when you look at it objectively you see that forcing small groups of 12 players creates an environment where if a new player tries to get into one of those groups they are nothing more than a liability until they are performing at top level. 12 mans can only carry maybe two players at anytime who are not fully trained- larger groups of 24 can carry much more new and learning players at a time......so the result of shifting to 12 mans is casual/new players will really not have many opportunities to learn how to play or improve outside of solo play.

If you play solo you stand no chance to take on these ball groups at all..No chance and even more so with healers not able to heal the random groups or others sharing buffs. Most of the new and learning players will not stay in cyro long or bother to try and learn- the result is the new players will stop coming to cyro and being able to improve without being farmed or pushed out - the game experience for them will be horrible. Ganked or run over and farmed by ball groups until they leave and no 12 mans can tolerate to pick them up in meaningful numbers- its just not fun to be farmed or ganked non stop till you finally quit because no one is picking up players and teaching them how to play out in that environment, and make no mistake no one will.

By reducing group size and also taking away heals/buffs outside those groups what they have done is really removed most opportunities for new players to be learn how to play, as casual players....most players start as casual and become more involved as they learn......this removes that chance almost entirely as 12 mans can only tolerate so much and the new players are nothing more than bombs- Its quite inevitable that the zone will die eventually and become ball groups and gankers- nothing more. There is no other play this change can possibly cause beyond that end result.

But if you are a ballgroup this is godsend. Its the perfect storm for them for sure- ungrouped players who dont know much are not a threat at all to them, most will perish in first wave of sub assault, fear, fear, fear- dead. Stunlock and no one will be able to pick up newer players to explain what to try to avoid that due to them being liabilities with VD bombs they rely on after the stun locks so no one will pick them up in groups.

Agreed. Competitive PVP guilds don't like to lose. They'll do what they need to in order to stay competitive...which probably doesn't include bringing inexperienced, casual, or LFG players into their 12 slots for raid night.

Its like PVE Vet Trial night when you are scorepushing. You want the guildies who can work as a team and know the mechanics, not the random player from zone chat or the "I play how I want" guy in guild. Those players can wait for fun nights or progression raids where everyone accepts that they'll wipe again and again until they learn what to do and do it perfectly.

In PVP, every raid night is a scorepushing night if the guild wants to tangle with other competitive guilds and ball groups.

Satiar

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Interesting though that they have introduced mechanics counter to their desired behavior.

The manipulate group size and ally targeted effects, to manipulate player behavior and force smaller fights, but keep Volundrung in the game to favor the highest population and encourage faction stacking (else lose the map).

They remove deer and glow bugs to reduce server calculations, but they put buffed NPCs at spawn locations all over the map. Also scores of crown store mounts with heavy particle effects.

They obviously have no clear direction.

Well, when you look at it objectively you see that forcing small groups of 12 players creates an environment where if a new player tries to get into one of those groups they are nothing more than a liability until they are performing at top level. 12 mans can only carry maybe two players at anytime who are not fully trained- larger groups of 24 can carry much more new and learning players at a time......so the result of shifting to 12 mans is casual/new players will really not have many opportunities to learn how to play or improve outside of solo play.

If you play solo you stand no chance to take on these ball groups at all..No chance and even more so with healers not able to heal the random groups or others sharing buffs. Most of the new and learning players will not stay in cyro long or bother to try and learn- the result is the new players will stop coming to cyro and being able to improve without being farmed or pushed out - the game experience for them will be horrible. Ganked or run over and farmed by ball groups until they leave and no 12 mans can tolerate to pick them up in meaningful numbers- its just not fun to be farmed or ganked non stop till you finally quit because no one is picking up players and teaching them how to play out in that environment, and make no mistake no one will.

By reducing group size and also taking away heals/buffs outside those groups what they have done is really removed most opportunities for new players to be learn how to play, as casual players....most players start as casual and become more involved as they learn......this removes that chance almost entirely as 12 mans can only tolerate so much and the new players are nothing more than bombs- Its quite inevitable that the zone will die eventually and become ball groups and gankers- nothing more. There is no other play this change can possibly cause beyond that end result.

But if you are a ballgroup this is godsend. Its the perfect storm for them for sure- ungrouped players who dont know much are not a threat at all to them, most will perish in first wave of sub assault, fear, fear, fear- dead. Stunlock and no one will be able to pick up newer players to explain what to try to avoid that due to them being liabilities with VD bombs they rely on after the stun locks so no one will pick them up in groups.

I don’t think vet players realize how confusing and utterly uncounterable a group like this is to a new player.

Agreed....its play they have long since left behind and probably have trouble remembering. I think the ball groups even underestimate where they will find competent players to replace those in ball groups who leave over time...most of the time they recruited players who learned somewhere to play- but if that stops- the flow of 'experienced' players to replace those who leave stops too. Ultimately it impacts all players at some point.

I say this as the ball group. Even for a vet player there’s very little you can do to groups like mine or others. Basically be a tether bomber but that requires game knowledge many do not have .

techyeshic

Satiar wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Interesting though that they have introduced mechanics counter to their desired behavior.

The manipulate group size and ally targeted effects, to manipulate player behavior and force smaller fights, but keep Volundrung in the game to favor the highest population and encourage faction stacking (else lose the map).

They remove deer and glow bugs to reduce server calculations, but they put buffed NPCs at spawn locations all over the map. Also scores of crown store mounts with heavy particle effects.

They obviously have no clear direction.

Well, when you look at it objectively you see that forcing small groups of 12 players creates an environment where if a new player tries to get into one of those groups they are nothing more than a liability until they are performing at top level. 12 mans can only carry maybe two players at anytime who are not fully trained- larger groups of 24 can carry much more new and learning players at a time......so the result of shifting to 12 mans is casual/new players will really not have many opportunities to learn how to play or improve outside of solo play.

If you play solo you stand no chance to take on these ball groups at all..No chance and even more so with healers not able to heal the random groups or others sharing buffs. Most of the new and learning players will not stay in cyro long or bother to try and learn- the result is the new players will stop coming to cyro and being able to improve without being farmed or pushed out - the game experience for them will be horrible. Ganked or run over and farmed by ball groups until they leave and no 12 mans can tolerate to pick them up in meaningful numbers- its just not fun to be farmed or ganked non stop till you finally quit because no one is picking up players and teaching them how to play out in that environment, and make no mistake no one will.

By reducing group size and also taking away heals/buffs outside those groups what they have done is really removed most opportunities for new players to be learn how to play, as casual players....most players start as casual and become more involved as they learn......this removes that chance almost entirely as 12 mans can only tolerate so much and the new players are nothing more than bombs- Its quite inevitable that the zone will die eventually and become ball groups and gankers- nothing more. There is no other play this change can possibly cause beyond that end result.

But if you are a ballgroup this is godsend. Its the perfect storm for them for sure- ungrouped players who dont know much are not a threat at all to them, most will perish in first wave of sub assault, fear, fear, fear- dead. Stunlock and no one will be able to pick up newer players to explain what to try to avoid that due to them being liabilities with VD bombs they rely on after the stun locks so no one will pick them up in groups.

I don’t think vet players realize how confusing and utterly uncounterable a group like this is to a new player.

Agreed....its play they have long since left behind and probably have trouble remembering. I think the ball groups even underestimate where they will find competent players to replace those in ball groups who leave over time...most of the time they recruited players who learned somewhere to play- but if that stops- the flow of 'experienced' players to replace those who leave stops too. Ultimately it impacts all players at some point.

I say this as the ball group. Even for a vet player there’s very little you can do to groups like mine or others. Basically be a tether bomber but that requires game knowledge many do not have .

Only time i have been in a decent group and managed to kill an even mid level ball group was with like 3 negates and more numbers to be able to still dump ultimates and that was tough then. Still possible now with even distribution of healing but the gap is where the only response would be to organize your own ball group and get good at it. Sounds great, but people enjoy just grouping up to hang out witg friends with the build they are running solo, or at least don't want to retreat into a hard set role.

Jaimeh

Meanwhile having a group full of ulti bombing necros and VD NBs is perfectly fiiiine...

Soul_Demon

Satiar wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Interesting though that they have introduced mechanics counter to their desired behavior.

The manipulate group size and ally targeted effects, to manipulate player behavior and force smaller fights, but keep Volundrung in the game to favor the highest population and encourage faction stacking (else lose the map).

They remove deer and glow bugs to reduce server calculations, but they put buffed NPCs at spawn locations all over the map. Also scores of crown store mounts with heavy particle effects.

They obviously have no clear direction.

Well, when you look at it objectively you see that forcing small groups of 12 players creates an environment where if a new player tries to get into one of those groups they are nothing more than a liability until they are performing at top level. 12 mans can only carry maybe two players at anytime who are not fully trained- larger groups of 24 can carry much more new and learning players at a time......so the result of shifting to 12 mans is casual/new players will really not have many opportunities to learn how to play or improve outside of solo play.

If you play solo you stand no chance to take on these ball groups at all..No chance and even more so with healers not able to heal the random groups or others sharing buffs. Most of the new and learning players will not stay in cyro long or bother to try and learn- the result is the new players will stop coming to cyro and being able to improve without being farmed or pushed out - the game experience for them will be horrible. Ganked or run over and farmed by ball groups until they leave and no 12 mans can tolerate to pick them up in meaningful numbers- its just not fun to be farmed or ganked non stop till you finally quit because no one is picking up players and teaching them how to play out in that environment, and make no mistake no one will.

By reducing group size and also taking away heals/buffs outside those groups what they have done is really removed most opportunities for new players to be learn how to play, as casual players....most players start as casual and become more involved as they learn......this removes that chance almost entirely as 12 mans can only tolerate so much and the new players are nothing more than bombs- Its quite inevitable that the zone will die eventually and become ball groups and gankers- nothing more. There is no other play this change can possibly cause beyond that end result.

But if you are a ballgroup this is godsend. Its the perfect storm for them for sure- ungrouped players who dont know much are not a threat at all to them, most will perish in first wave of sub assault, fear, fear, fear- dead. Stunlock and no one will be able to pick up newer players to explain what to try to avoid that due to them being liabilities with VD bombs they rely on after the stun locks so no one will pick them up in groups.

I don’t think vet players realize how confusing and utterly uncounterable a group like this is to a new player.

Agreed....its play they have long since left behind and probably have trouble remembering. I think the ball groups even underestimate where they will find competent players to replace those in ball groups who leave over time...most of the time they recruited players who learned somewhere to play- but if that stops- the flow of 'experienced' players to replace those who leave stops too. Ultimately it impacts all players at some point.

I say this as the ball group. Even for a vet player there’s very little you can do to groups like mine or others. Basically be a tether bomber but that requires game knowledge many do not have .

Yeah, I think there are a few groups who see the writing on the wall right now- sadly only a very few. By the time they need to replace players who inevitably stop playing or leave their current groups it will be way too late to wonder where you will get the knowledgeable replacements from. The population has always been a double edged sword in cyro- big pop, large zergs means play for organized groups, farmers, gankers and all have plenty of play to be found- but we have to deal with zergs to have all that. I think by the time its really noticed, all who are even still playing will be homogenized to the point where they will be unrecognizable as individual guilds.

Joy_Division

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I still don't get the logic of the argument "I can't solo heal and go where I want to" against behavioral change. There is no such thing as "solo healing". If you're playing a healer, then you are most likely zerging, period. I mean, how else are you going to heal when no people are there to heal? People who claim they solo heal are like those "solo players" that claim they solo but actually surf in a large zerg. Why not just get in a group and be more productive? The group is only good if everyone's in sync, and if you're not agreeing with the leader then simply leave and form your own groups. Cyrodiil is full of uncoordinated players who will gladly join a group you form. Why is it so hard to understand lol?

Healers basically want to do the same thing most DPS have done since launch: do their own thing while zerg-surfing without being singularly blamed for all the lag caused in Cyrodiil.

The majority of players in a faction stack are "solo" DPS who seem to have no problem pointing accusatory fingers and pretending that when they spam skills and flood the server with calculations for proc sets, double dot poisons, status effects, etc., their behavior is not noticeably contributing to server overload. If you play in Cyrodiil on anything, you are most likely zerging, period.

Since you can;t seem to grasp why people might not want to just join a PuG group despite the many responses in this thread, why don't you experience for yourself. EVERY time you log into cyrodiil type LFG and see how it goes for say a year.

if you are a healer wanting to faction surf but still want to heal people just invite everyone who types LFG yourself and start to surf the faction - if people want heals they will come to you.

Same as before except clicking twice on names in chat (or downloading auto invite).

So..."start your own group" as a solution?

I already addressed the reasons why I no longer lead PUGs in an earlier comment. I have led LFG players before and it is not comparable to the gameplay Joy_Division describes that healers used to be able to do.

When my PVP guild isn't on, I want to heal when and where I want to (which included, but wasn't always zergsurfing) without being tied to a PUG crown, stuck with PUG teammates who don't bring siege or scatter in a fight, or forced to lead my own group (of PUGs who don't bring siege and scatter in a fight, natch.) Since ZOS apparently likes making these my only options, my PVP healer is only going to be running with my guild, because they actually bring siege and don't act like my heals are friendly fire.

This is part of the behavior target. Faction stacks are propped up by randoms able to cross heal *everyone*. Harder to faction stack with this change and survive simply by having healers scattered everywhere spamming smart heals.

From your point of view.

Somehow the random ungrouped healer has become the scapegoat for server calculations and lag when it is obvious to anyone who has played since Launch or read zone chat on a weekend night that it's the organized raids whose presence tanks performance, aside from the balance issues their potency has caused.

Yet somehow ZOS decides to make them relatively stronger because everyone one of their members can always heal/buff each other whereas that's not the case for the players they farm.

It's no surprise at all that some high profile players who run in organized raids are applauding these changes, even tough ZOS has admitted it did not have the impact on performance they were looking for. So spare me the justifications about performance; It's about wanting to play in an environment where the rules and mechanics are both convenient and favorable to them while being unfavorable to their opponents.

I remember years ago how you were a very prominent critic of AoE caps because you were frustrated that your abilities were artificially nerfed/reduced in effectiveness because of inconsistent rules/mechanics that favored the people you fought against.

My my, how things have changed over the years.

Aoe caps were bad, how is that different? That also contributed to stacking issues. Theres nothing wrong with group play. The way the maps designed with faction stacks is not good.

This change by itself isnt a solution for macro level issues. Can check out a video I did talking about these things for a while. I presume those who's minds are made up and just hate on pretty much anything I say wont watch. But that's your choice. I'm still for adding single target healing outside of groups. Not the smart healing ones though.

https://youtu.be/LPj2eox5me8

You presume incorrectly about minds already being made up (at least mine) or hating on anything you say. I get it that you get a lot of flak for being opinionated and rub some people the wrong way with your cursing. I could care less about either, for I am also opinionated and swear a lot.

There are many reasons why I hate these changes that have nothing to do with you or anyone else: people should not feel forced to be in a group, it makes a mockery of AvAvA by making the rules akin to a group free for all, it ruins the freedom and dynamism that is the best part of open world AvAvA, ZOS has already has a PvP system with Battlegrounds that is already group centric, but most of all it knowingly imposes a different rule-set in which grouped players are always at an advantage over players who are either ungrouped or in different groups. And my reason for hating them is the same for hating AoE caps.

AOE caps = bad because they place mechanics that reduce the effectiveness of some player skills while also offering advantages to other players by virtue of simply standing among allies.

Heal only ally = bad because they place mechanics that reduce the effectiveness of some player skills while also offering advantages to other players by virtue of simply grouping.

But somehow, you think that's (now) OK. Difference here, with AOE caps, you thought you were getting screwed. With heal only ally, even as you rail and hate on how other players are healing the players you are trying to kill, you have no problem saying on your stream that you need healers in your group when the competition is more than you bargained for.

You want to group? That's fine, I do so sometimes too. But when the argument becomes because I'm in a group, I deserve to play with an advantageous rule-set, that's throwing anything resembling fair competition out the window.

I did watch your video, but you are talking about many other things than this. Much of what I agree with by the way. Since you seem confused about why rapid regen is what it is, that's what we get because ZOS has homogenized every ability and balances by spreadsheet. In their mind, a heal must be a X value because that's the standard, regardless of how easy it is to apply. I get it, you don;t like faction stacks. Well, I didn;t like it during the testing on Ravennwatch when 40 DC stam sorcs relentlessly hounded a 2 bar AD population. This stuff becomes much more noticeable when we are personally on the receiving end, no?

badmojo

I am curious how the people supporting this change would feel if ally abilities were removed from groups as well.

umagon

badmojo wrote: »

I am curious how the people supporting this change would feel if ally abilities were removed from groups as well.

ZOS should have a week of “pvp testing” where magicka detonation, vicious death, and area effect ultimates are disabled in cyrodiil. I am sure the groups will enjoy having to target every hostile enemy individually. No more plebeian smart bombs, just “professional” precision targeting only.

Soul_Demon

ZOS, if you are reading along at all.....is it possible to see population graphs of pre-testing phase up to present so the player-base can assess the direction the game is going in Cyro? Decisions have to be made by more than just the game devs on this one- and seeing the health of PvP in general will help those who have to make them a great deal.

Sylosi

VaranisArano wrote: »

Competitive PVP guilds

Thanks for the laugh.

Earthewen

ZOS, I am still a little confused about what behavior you liked seeing. To be completely honest with you, I am seriously considering taking a 250 member guild completely out of ESO altogether. That's an awful lot of people to be lost to another game. I agree with the other folks who are really seriously concerned about the way PvP is headed. Not everyone is in love with PvE. I understand that is where most of your money comes from, but isn't the player base in PvP important as well? Do we not deserve a bit more thoughtfulness?

I would ask you, ZOS, did you check with any ... again I emphasize ANY, of the larger guilds to see what their preference was? Who did you talk to? How long has it been since you spoke to a larger guild for what their players were wanting to do?

To be honest with you, I am discourage to think that once again these questions will go unanswered for whatever reason. If you truly value the opinions of others and value your player base, please give us more than "This post was seen as bashing and therefore has been clipped." To ask you questions that affects our game play is not always bashing. Sometimes, we just want to know what to do with our game time. I spend hours in the game every day with my guild. We really need to know which way you are headed with PvP before we decide anything.

Earthewen

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I still don't get the logic of the argument "I can't solo heal and go where I want to" against behavioral change. There is no such thing as "solo healing". If you're playing a healer, then you are most likely zerging, period. I mean, how else are you going to heal when no people are there to heal? People who claim they solo heal are like those "solo players" that claim they solo but actually surf in a large zerg. Why not just get in a group and be more productive? The group is only good if everyone's in sync, and if you're not agreeing with the leader then simply leave and form your own groups. Cyrodiil is full of uncoordinated players who will gladly join a group you form. Why is it so hard to understand lol?

Healers basically want to do the same thing most DPS have done since launch: do their own thing while zerg-surfing without being singularly blamed for all the lag caused in Cyrodiil.

The majority of players in a faction stack are "solo" DPS who seem to have no problem pointing accusatory fingers and pretending that when they spam skills and flood the server with calculations for proc sets, double dot poisons, status effects, etc., their behavior is not noticeably contributing to server overload. If you play in Cyrodiil on anything, you are most likely zerging, period.

Since you can;t seem to grasp why people might not want to just join a PuG group despite the many responses in this thread, why don't you experience for yourself. EVERY time you log into cyrodiil type LFG and see how it goes for say a year.

if you are a healer wanting to faction surf but still want to heal people just invite everyone who types LFG yourself and start to surf the faction - if people want heals they will come to you.

Same as before except clicking twice on names in chat (or downloading auto invite).

So..."start your own group" as a solution?

I already addressed the reasons why I no longer lead PUGs in an earlier comment. I have led LFG players before and it is not comparable to the gameplay Joy_Division describes that healers used to be able to do.

When my PVP guild isn't on, I want to heal when and where I want to (which included, but wasn't always zergsurfing) without being tied to a PUG crown, stuck with PUG teammates who don't bring siege or scatter in a fight, or forced to lead my own group (of PUGs who don't bring siege and scatter in a fight, natch.) Since ZOS apparently likes making these my only options, my PVP healer is only going to be running with my guild, because they actually bring siege and don't act like my heals are friendly fire.

This is part of the behavior target. Faction stacks are propped up by randoms able to cross heal *everyone*. Harder to faction stack with this change and survive simply by having healers scattered everywhere spamming smart heals.

From your point of view.

Somehow the random ungrouped healer has become the scapegoat for server calculations and lag when it is obvious to anyone who has played since Launch or read zone chat on a weekend night that it's the organized raids whose presence tanks performance, aside from the balance issues their potency has caused.

Yet somehow ZOS decides to make them relatively stronger because everyone one of their members can always heal/buff each other whereas that's not the case for the players they farm.

It's no surprise at all that some high profile players who run in organized raids are applauding these changes, even tough ZOS has admitted it did not have the impact on performance they were looking for. So spare me the justifications about performance; It's about wanting to play in an environment where the rules and mechanics are both convenient and favorable to them while being unfavorable to their opponents.

I remember years ago how you were a very prominent critic of AoE caps because you were frustrated that your abilities were artificially nerfed/reduced in effectiveness because of inconsistent rules/mechanics that favored the people you fought against.

My my, how things have changed over the years.

Aoe caps were bad, how is that different? That also contributed to stacking issues. Theres nothing wrong with group play. The way the maps designed with faction stacks is not good.

This change by itself isnt a solution for macro level issues. Can check out a video I did talking about these things for a while. I presume those who's minds are made up and just hate on pretty much anything I say wont watch. But that's your choice. I'm still for adding single target healing outside of groups. Not the smart healing ones though.

https://youtu.be/LPj2eox5me8

This one or two changes hasn't changed the issues with lag at all. And it has changed some people's behavior. Many are now just sitting in a keep until it is hit, and refuse to come out at all. I just think the health of PvP isn't not good right now, and every time someone just guesses and tries to make a change it gets worse. I'm not sure what the devs are thinking. On the one hand, it almost feels as if they WANT PvP to die. The populations are lower than ever which is why I'm uncertain. Either way, the result is the same. The pop is just lower than I've ever seen it in all my years in ESO. And that makes me sad.

Tommy_The_Gun

So no cross healing. I think that this is VERY inconsistent and confusing change.

- Inconsistent, because we still have cross - damage (but not healing ?), cross resing, cross siege / camp use etc.

- Confusing since solo players can only heal other solo players, but... how can a solo player tell the difference who is playing solo or in a group ? (especially when this stuff will start to happen outside of PvP, like on a harrowstorm or world boss). In group, yes you have indicators on other players in your group. But outside of that - there is no way to know that. So the moment you cast some heals and those wont work... you are left wondering why it did not worked ? New bug, or something ? ? ?

I myself had encountered weird stuff already. Like siege shield... sometimes when someone placed it.. it worked, and other time it did not. Same with purge. Sometimes I could see synergy button, but sometimes I could not. Weird thing also is that I saw "green" AOEs on the ground... but those did nothing to me. No effect at all...

Conclusion: Either roll it back, or make it consistent (no cross dmg etc.), or at least add some kind of global indication who is playing solo or who is in a group, so players who are ungrouped could see who they can help or not. And finally - do not render green AOEs for players who can not use them. Otherwise it is worse than trolling / baiting, because it creates fake impression "this will help me".

Earthewen

The lag tonight in Gray Host was terrible. Even people who didn't suffer from disconnects have been facing them now. This doesn't make any sense whatsoever. We endured unfun testing in cyro for over two months. The result was, as we were told, no viable data. Okay, BUT we're going to change the game anyway regardless?

I had the most unfun night in cyro ever tonight. Lag and disconnects were all over the place. At least when you had a 24 man group, and half your group disconnected as they came up to a keep that was heavily defended, you still might have at least 12 guys who managed to stay online. Now, if half your team disconnects, you arrive to large engagements with maybe 6 guys.

I'm not sure at all that this change was really well thought out and I'm concerned that while things were being change so frequently during the testing that stuff was never put back quite like they were before in any way.

I would also like to bring up that there seems to be an artificial throttling of skills that has occurred. I would agree with some other folks who are saying that a rollback to earlier days is warranted.

renne

Soul_Demon wrote: »

If you play solo you stand no chance to take on these ball groups at all..No chance and even more so with healers not able to heal the random groups or others sharing buffs. Most of the new and learning players will not stay in cyro long or bother to try and learn- the result is the new players will stop coming to cyro and being able to improve without being farmed or pushed out - the game experience for them will be horrible. Ganked or run over and farmed by ball groups until they leave and no 12 mans can tolerate to pick them up in meaningful numbers- its just not fun to be farmed or ganked non stop till you finally quit because no one is picking up players and teaching them how to play out in that environment, and make no mistake no one will.

This was literally the kind of thing that lead to there now being a solo queue in BGs too. Because let me tell you, trying to get into BGs and constantly being farmed by premades every time you got a match (even when you were lucky not to be in the 2 of a 2v3v4) was an absolute turn off. You don't learn to "git gud" because there's no way to learn when you're spending all your time respawning, or, in the case of Cyrodiil, riding across the countryside desperately hoping you can make it to a keep without getting ganked or run over by a ball group so you have to do it all over again.

geonsocal

badmojo wrote: »

armchair wrote: »

The question I have is, Does Zenimax see this and are intentionally reinforcing this behavior? Or are they simply to myopic to understand the implications of the changes they intend to make.

My feeling is that the person making these decisions runs with an organized group and hangs out in their discord taking their advice and feedback exclusively.

that sounds pretty much exactly right...