Behavioral changes

badmojo

Please ZOS, do tell us how we should be behaving in an open world pvp environment. Obviously healing allies when they need it is not the correct behavior.

I would LOVE to hear your input on why limiting group sizes and eliminating all ally abilities creates better behavior from us horribly misbehaving players.

Is the proper behavior for us to sit in ball groups of 12 spamming buffs heals and clenses continuously? Why not require players to be grouped in order to use the transitus network? After all, we are just rats in a lab for you to expirament behavioral changes on. Not customers who bought into your product 6 god damn years ago and have been enjoying said product up until you stupid and careless beta tests on live servers which have now ruined the part of the game that some of us are here for.

Firstmep

Guys, just spread out please!

Really they shouldve reworked cyrodiil 10 times over, by adding objectives that force people to spread out instead of stacking on the same emp keeps for hours.

All these tests have done is *** off the playerbase even more.

They are literally wasting developer time on an issue that they clearly cant solve by crunching numbers or chaning skill behaviour.

It is clear that they cant support the kinda large scale pvp that occurs in cyrodiil.

Newsflash Camelot Unchained has been in development for what feels like a century, literally building their entire game around this issue and the game is not even close to getting released.

Anyone who played WvWvW in GW2 can tell you that when too many players stack in 1 place there will be lag.

They dont want to/ can afford enough server capacity or good enough hardware that would be required to run the kinda pvp that occurs in cyrodiil.

If they want to reduce lag, then spread people out, 90% of Cyrodiil is literally just empty fields and some rocks.

The south east part of the map might as well be renamed to Bootes Void, with how often any action happens there.

Caravans, respawn points, single resources, towns etc all could be added to encourage players to spread out.

Massively reducing static ap gains from captuing keeps, resource etc, and make them scale harder with induvidual effort(like healing done during fights, kills etc), so taking a 40 man raid to take Chalman farm isnt as profitable as it is now.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

But no, lets add 3 second cooldown to a class' main spammable, im sure thatll solve the crusing lag caused by 100+ players with 6 procsets spamming aoe heals in a tight space.

Srsly...

Joy_Division

badmojo wrote: »

Please ZOS, do tell us how we should be behaving in an open world pvp environment. Obviously healing allies when they need it is not the correct behavior.

I would LOVE to hear your input on why limiting group sizes and eliminating all ally abilities creates better behavior from us horribly misbehaving players.

Is the proper behavior for us to sit in ball groups of 12 spamming buffs heals and clenses continuously? Why not require players to be grouped in order to use the transitus network? After all, we are just rats in a lab for you to expirament behavioral changes on. Not customers who bought into your product 6 god damn years ago and have been enjoying said product up until you stupid and careless beta tests on live servers which have now ruined the part of the game that some of us are here for.

The behavior change is that it will make it easier for people in any group size, from two to twelve, to farm randoms.

badmojo

Joy_Division wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

Please ZOS, do tell us how we should be behaving in an open world pvp environment. Obviously healing allies when they need it is not the correct behavior.

I would LOVE to hear your input on why limiting group sizes and eliminating all ally abilities creates better behavior from us horribly misbehaving players.

Is the proper behavior for us to sit in ball groups of 12 spamming buffs heals and clenses continuously? Why not require players to be grouped in order to use the transitus network? After all, we are just rats in a lab for you to expirament behavioral changes on. Not customers who bought into your product 6 god damn years ago and have been enjoying said product up until you stupid and careless beta tests on live servers which have now ruined the part of the game that some of us are here for.

The behavior change is that it will make it easier for people in any group size, from two to twelve, to farm randoms.

I am frankly afraid that the behavioral changes they liked were that a lot of us simply didn't queue up for Cyrodiil as much during the tests.

Without clarification from ZOS on this, I can only assume they got enough money from me and don't want me to using their server resources. Save those resources for new players who haven't yet purchased multiple hundreds of dollars worth of housing, crates & cosmetics.

It seriously hurts me to see them ignore the complaints of the few veteran players still bothering to post on the forums. They dictate, and we have no choice but to accept their terms. Or like many others have done before us, we can leave.

Dyngrin

Here is a repost of mine:


Are you kidding me? This change:

"ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group"

Is FORCED grouping, especially for healers since you wouldn't be able to heal others if not grouped (I play as a support Templar). If I just wanted to play with up to 12 folks, the game wouldn't need to be an MMO (M as in Massively), and certainly wouldn't be ESO with this change. Even worse, this change doesn't even help significantly with lag in Cyro.


As the OP pointed out, ZOS's reason for the change is for a desired "behavioral change" when any changes should actually be driven by the desire for customer satisfaction -- and this change is just the opposite, imo.

Faded

badmojo wrote: »

It seriously hurts me to see them ignore the complaints of the few veteran players still bothering to post on the forums. They dictate, and we have no choice but to accept their terms. Or like many others have done before us, we can leave.

Maybe they want us to. Then they're free to keep building whatever their constantly shifting vision is moving them toward without people who've watched them stumble around point out that they're prone to the same mistakes over and over again. Hey, remember when we said that was a bad idea? Before you did it anyway and then had to undo it? Because so is this. Hello?

Yeah, maybe they'd like us to just go.

Xeniph

Behavior change:

Group up.

ExistingRug61

Xeniph wrote: »

Behavior change:

Group up.

Alternatively,

Behaviour change:

Don't play.


Look, I'm not trying to be overdramatic here, as there are times when I'll want to group up and this is less of an isse.
But there are also times when I just want to go into Cyrodiil for a bit and do my own thing, decide my own objectives rather than follow a crown, not worry about being social but still assist allied players who happen to be around. Because I enjoy that when I'm just looking to chill and do some gaming for a little bit of time. So now, in those situations, I'll probably just find something else (not ESO) to do instead.

For me, the (unquantified) potential performance gain of this change is not worth the cost.

Joy_Division

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Behavior change:

Group up.

Alternatively,

Behaviour change:

Don't play.


Look, I'm not trying to be overdramatic here, as there are times when I'll want to group up and this is less of an isse.
But there are also times when I just want to go into Cyrodiil for a bit and do my own thing, decide my own objectives rather than follow a crown, not worry about being social but still assist allied players who happen to be around. Because I enjoy that when I'm just looking to chill and do some gaming for a little bit of time. So now, in those situations, I'll probably just find something else (not ESO) to do instead.

For me, the (unquantified) potential performance gain of this change is not worth the cost.

There isn't any notable performance gain at all. ZoS has admitted as such.

Raammzzaa

@Firstmep I agree with you, but I don’t see the reduction in group size inducing players to spread out the way perhaps introducing some other objectives may have. Players will still go to where the action is on the map. So now rather than

Xeniph wrote: »

Behavior change:

Group up.

Also, behavior change: become a ganker... or a bomber - assuming that the player was not already lol These are still viable and profitable play styles should you want to run solo dolo.

SirAndy

Paramedics arriving at the scene of an accident:

"We're sorry sir, but we can't help you. You failed to group with us prior to your accident."

VaranisArano

Firstmep wrote: »

Guys, just spread out please!

That doesn't work. ZOS had already added more objectives with the bridges, milegates, and more outposts. Has it helped?

No. Players can figure out what's the most important objective (or the fight worth the most AP) and head in that direction en masse. Adding more, as in your suggestions, really won't help.


And this is how the "Just spread out" idea works in practice:
"Just spread out! Get off the emp ring! Go for other objectives!"

"No, don't PvDoor the tri-keeps! When I said spread out, I didn't mean like that, you fools! Nobody's back there, don't you want real PVP?"

"Gah, get your ball group out of Brindle/Dragon/Drake farming that faction stack of PUGs! Can't you tell its making the server lag?"

"Why are you all running rings around the emp keeps again? ZOS needs you to spread out!"

"Oh, great, "Its Hammer time!" Thanks, ZOS, we really needed a zerg magnet right now, thanks."


If that last didn't make it clear, even the objectives ZOS introduced to get players to spread out (Volendrung and extra AP from corner keeps) haven't worked. "Just spread out" fails because Cyrodiil really is designed fantastically well to create large fights.

alterfenixeb17_ESO

VaranisArano wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Guys, just spread out please!

That doesn't work. ZOS had already added more objectives with the bridges, milegates, and more outposts. Has it helped?

Not really, they did not. All those additions are build around same mechanics which is: crown the Empire and get scrolls. Nothing else. Gates and bridges are supposed to eventually slow down progressing of attacking group from one keep to another and that is it. Nothing about spreading anyone - fight is just expected to start at the milegate and not keep. Similar for villages and outposts - they are intended to aid with some backdoor work but then this was never expected that suddenly more people will start doing that. Just a QoL improvement for already doing this kind of work and nothing else. Should they want to spread people it is needed to rework i.e. how emperor is crowned and not to add any more stuff that players just is slowing down attacking party without forcing them to spread.

armchair

The behavior change is that it will make it easier for people in any group size, from two to twelve, to farm randoms.[/quote]

This will be the result in the short term. In the long term however this will accelerate the loss of players in cyrodiil as the new players randoms and casual's will leave in frustration. Those that do opt to stay will be pushed further into the current tank meta. A month or two from now the same people happy about the changes will be here complaining about all they have to fight are stacks of health based healing tanks running malubeth and crimson who do nothing but hold block an cc them. None of which I personally want to see occur.

The question I have is, Does Zenimax see this and are intentionally reinforcing this behavior? Or are they simply to myopic to understand the implications of the changes they intend to make.

ThePedge

Dyngrin wrote: »

Here is a repost of mine:


Are you kidding me? This change:

"ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group"

Is FORCED grouping, especially for healers since you wouldn't be able to heal others if not grouped (I play as a support Templar). If I just wanted to play with up to 12 folks, the game wouldn't need to be an MMO (M as in Massively), and certainly wouldn't be ESO with this change. Even worse, this change doesn't even help significantly with lag in Cyro.


As the OP pointed out, ZOS's reason for the change is for a desired "behavioral change" when any changes should actually be driven by the desire for customer satisfaction -- and this change is just the opposite, imo.

And you think being ALONE and not cooperating with anyone is participating in an MMOs large scale combat?

What mental gymnastics do you have to do to think that playing alone is a better MMO experience that playing in a group of 12?

badmojo

armchair wrote: »

The question I have is, Does Zenimax see this and are intentionally reinforcing this behavior? Or are they simply to myopic to understand the implications of the changes they intend to make.

My feeling is that the person making these decisions runs with an organized group and hangs out in their discord taking their advice and feedback exclusively.

VaranisArano

ThePedge wrote: »

Dyngrin wrote: »

Here is a repost of mine:


Are you kidding me? This change:

"ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group"

Is FORCED grouping, especially for healers since you wouldn't be able to heal others if not grouped (I play as a support Templar). If I just wanted to play with up to 12 folks, the game wouldn't need to be an MMO (M as in Massively), and certainly wouldn't be ESO with this change. Even worse, this change doesn't even help significantly with lag in Cyro.


As the OP pointed out, ZOS's reason for the change is for a desired "behavioral change" when any changes should actually be driven by the desire for customer satisfaction -- and this change is just the opposite, imo.

And you think being ALONE and not cooperating with anyone is participating in an MMOs large scale combat?

What mental gymnastics do you have to do to think that playing alone is a better MMO experience that playing in a group of 12?

Typically healers, when playing "solo", aren't alone. We're, uh, zergsurfing. Or we're keep-hopping to whatever's under attack going "They'll need a healer there!" and figuring allies will come. I mean, there's not a lot of point to playing a healer if the only person being healed is yourself, right?

Why do that when you could group up with guaranteed allies?

Well, when my PVP guild is on, I do.
When they aren't, PUGs are a very mixed bag where the leader may not know what to do, my teammates often didn't bring enough siege, and they scatter from my heals like it's standing-in-stupid red the second we get in a serious fight.

As a "solo" healer going where I wanted, when I wanted, I was more effective making AP by assisting faction-mates and zergsurfing than I was in PUGs. And I didn't have to deal with the frustrations of PUGing.

And that's what "force grouping" takes away from healers. Unlike other specs, we can't zergsurf anymore as a healer - we'd be far more effective just running a generic tanky/damage proc set build, and that isn't how I like to play.

So to answer your question, any other build can run "solo" and still participate effectively in the large battles Cyrodiil is known for (via zergsurfing). Healers used to be able to. Now we have to group up if we want to be anywhere near as effective as we used to be.

Brovah

The only behaviour they encourage me is to unsubscribe and uninstall.. can't play a game when they don't let play the game as intended.. shame, really liked the game

idk

VaranisArano wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Guys, just spread out please!

That doesn't work. ZOS had already added more objectives with the bridges, milegates, and more outposts. Has it helped?

No. Players can figure out what's the most important objective (or the fight worth the most AP) and head in that direction en masse. Adding more, as in your suggestions, really won't help.

And this is how the "Just spread out" idea works in practice:
"Just spread out! Get off the emp ring! Go for other objectives!"

"No, don't PvDoor the tri-keeps! When I said spread out, I didn't mean like that, you fools! Nobody's back there, don't you want real PVP?"

"Gah, get your ball group out of Brindle/Dragon/Drake farming that faction stack of PUGs! Can't you tell its making the server lag?"

"Why are you all running rings around the emp keeps again? ZOS needs you to spread out!"

"Oh, great, "Its Hammer time!" Thanks, ZOS, we really needed a zerg magnet right now, thanks."


If that last didn't make it clear, even the objectives ZOS introduced to get players to spread out (Volendrung and extra AP from corner keeps) haven't worked. "Just spread out" fails because Cyrodiil really is designed fantastically well to create large fights

.

Pretty much this, but we do not always see what the most important objective actually is just what seems to be the most important objective.

In the first couple of months of this game, there was a strong push to dethrone the Emporer of from my alliance who happened to be a guildmate. It all came down to one keep so everyone was there and the fight seemed to go on and on and on.

So what did we end up doing? We went and took one of the other keeps where no one was at and took it which removed all the stress from the other keep. Something I rarely see done today.

BTW, that fight was before several max pop reductions Zos did in Cyrodiil. While the server did not perform perfectly it was able to handle much more than it does today. We did not lag out during that fight. The reason the servers perform so poorly today is Zos has added significantly more load to them without making adjustments to accommodate such changes.

VaranisArano

idk wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Guys, just spread out please!

That doesn't work. ZOS had already added more objectives with the bridges, milegates, and more outposts. Has it helped?

No. Players can figure out what's the most important objective (or the fight worth the most AP) and head in that direction en masse. Adding more, as in your suggestions, really won't help.

And this is how the "Just spread out" idea works in practice:
"Just spread out! Get off the emp ring! Go for other objectives!"

"No, don't PvDoor the tri-keeps! When I said spread out, I didn't mean like that, you fools! Nobody's back there, don't you want real PVP?"

"Gah, get your ball group out of Brindle/Dragon/Drake farming that faction stack of PUGs! Can't you tell its making the server lag?"

"Why are you all running rings around the emp keeps again? ZOS needs you to spread out!"

"Oh, great, "Its Hammer time!" Thanks, ZOS, we really needed a zerg magnet right now, thanks."


If that last didn't make it clear, even the objectives ZOS introduced to get players to spread out (Volendrung and extra AP from corner keeps) haven't worked. "Just spread out" fails because Cyrodiil really is designed fantastically well to create large fights

.

Pretty much this, but we do not always see what the most important objective actually is just what seems to be the most important objective.

In the first couple of months of this game, there was a strong push to dethrone the Emporer of from my alliance who happened to be a guildmate. It all came down to one keep so everyone was there and the fight seemed to go on and on and on.

So what did we end up doing? We went and took one of the other keeps where no one was at and took it which removed all the stress from the other keep. Something I rarely see done today.

BTW, that fight was before several max pop reductions Zos did in Cyrodiil. While the server did not perform perfectly it was able to handle much more than it does today. We did not lag out during that fight. The reason the servers perform so poorly today is Zos has added significantly more load to them without making adjustments to accommodate such changes.

I suspect that the lower population in Cyrodiil is one of the reasons you see less tactics like leaving a mega fight to go take a different keep to relieve pressure. That's typically the action of a guild group confident they'll win without sticking to the faction stack, nowadays, and there are just less guild groups around. (Or at least, guild groups who play the map instead of ball groups farming PUGs in side keeps, anyways.)

But I might be wrong. Maybe players these days are just finding it better to mob one objective. During the early days of Volendrung, it was more common to see the non-hammer faction's guild groups go hit a back keep to draw off the pressure while relying on the faction stack to defend their home keeps. That's morphed into the current strategy of "faction stack up to kill their hammer-zerg, then hammer-zerg ourselves."

Also, there's a part of me that wonders if the "stuck in combat" bug contributes to those tactics. Its a lot easier to "tunnel vision" on an objective when you know you can't break off and go elsewhere once you've committed without having to literally run on foot.

Dunning_Kruger

encouraging groups to group to reap benefits versus not seems like healthy game design. Ungrouped zergs still benefit from damage and sheer numbers. The day smart damage is created and executes hit the lowest go target in 28meters I will change my
Mind about the healing changes. Buckle up; time to git some Gud solo healers.

Reverb

Interesting though that they have introduced mechanics counter to their desired behavior.

The manipulate group size and ally targeted effects, to manipulate player behavior and force smaller fights, but keep Volundrung in the game to favor the highest population and encourage faction stacking (else lose the map).

They remove deer and glow bugs to reduce server calculations, but they put buffed NPCs at spawn locations all over the map. Also scores of crown store mounts with heavy particle effects.

They obviously have no clear direction.

forztr2

Did the changes go live today? I don't see any mention in the patch notes?

Reverb

forztr2 wrote: »

Did the changes go live today? I don't see any mention in the patch notes?

Yes they went live, no they didn’t include it in the patch notes. They also didn’t put it in the patch notes when these changes went live for console last week, players there were blindsided.

StaticWave

I still don't get the logic of the argument "I can't solo heal and go where I want to" against behavioral change. There is no such thing as "solo healing". If you're playing a healer, then you are most likely zerging, period. I mean, how else are you going to heal when no people are there to heal? People who claim they solo heal are like those "solo players" that claim they solo but actually surf in a large zerg. Why not just get in a group and be more productive? The group is only good if everyone's in sync, and if you're not agreeing with the leader then simply leave and form your own groups. Cyrodiil is full of uncoordinated players who will gladly join a group you form. Why is it so hard to understand lol?

kollege14a5

So healers can't zergsurf anymore, group size is reduced to 12 and because of these changes there is less lag in cyro.

In my opinion these are all good changes that should have been implemented a while ago since there is definitely less lag in cyro with cross healing deactivated.

alterfenixeb17_ESO

Reverb wrote: »

Interesting though that they have introduced mechanics counter to their desired behavior.

The manipulate group size and ally targeted effects, to manipulate player behavior and force smaller fights, but keep Volundrung in the game to favor the highest population and encourage faction stacking (else lose the map).

They remove deer and glow bugs to reduce server calculations, but they put buffed NPCs at spawn locations all over the map. Also scores of crown store mounts with heavy particle effects.

They obviously have no clear direction.

Now that you mentioned Volendrung and small fights. Based on today in Grey Host EU little change really, just perhaps that fight itself had faster pace. Other than that still ton of people (considering current population to) running from Aleswell to Chalman and back again.

VaranisArano

StaticWave wrote: »

I still don't get the logic of the argument "I can't solo heal and go where I want to" against behavioral change. There is no such thing as "solo healing". If you're playing a healer, then you are most likely zerging, period. I mean, how else are you going to heal when no people are there to heal? People who claim they solo heal are like those "solo players" that claim they solo but actually surf in a large zerg. Why not just get in a group and be more productive? The group is only good if everyone's in sync, and if you're not agreeing with the leader then simply leave and form your own groups. Cyrodiil is full of uncoordinated players who will gladly join a group you form. Why is it so hard to understand lol?

So I touched on this above, including the zergsurfing and why healers might prefer to run alongside allies as opposed to joining a PUG. PUGs are pretty good for inexperienced players, but more experienced healers might often find that the greater flexibility of not being tied to a group of random quality was more beneficial to them.

But you brought up the good old "Then start your own group!" idea, and I'd like to address that.

First off, I've actually led PUGs. Maybe you find it easy, but I find it to be pretty stressful. There's the responsibility of figuring out where to go next while keeping track of my group members, coordinating the group via group chat and recruiting LFG players, plus, you know, actually sieging, fighting, and healing. And that's when my PUG raid is winning! If I'm trying to also teach my PUG raid the basics of playing as a group (bring siege, stick together in a fight because strength in numbers, etc), its just that much harder.

There's a reason I stopped leading PUGs. Maybe you've had better experiences with leading PUGs yourself, in which case I welcome any tips!

Second, "just lead your own group" is not a good solution for players who are new or don't feel experienced enough to be confident leading in battle. I'd been playing with a PVP guild for about a year before I felt comfortable enough to even consider leading a PUG raid. Maybe others are braver than I and would try sooner, but adding inexperienced PUG leaders to the population isn't really going to improve my experience if I join one of those PUGs.

Third, is any other build being told "just lead your own group if you don't like what's on offer" in order to play effectively in Cyrodiil? No, healers are the only builds that now require grouping in order to fulfill their entire purpose of healing their allies.

"Just make your own group" is the sort of solution that sounds good, but isn't actually helpful.

So why is it so hard to understand?

Its easy to understand: ZOS thinks its okay for every other build to zergsurf "solo" except for healers. If healers want to, you know, heal, they have to group up with randoms in PUGs, find a PVP guild they can stand (who's running whenever they want to play, of course), or lead their own group. ZOS likes this. Nobody else has to jump through those hoops to be as effective as they were before this change. ZOS likes that. And if players who like playing as a healer don't like those options, they complain and probably play their healer less.

(On a side note, after this, I don't want to hear any griping from people supporting this change about healers in ball groups. I mean, ZOS is literally forcing healers into PUGs and PVP guilds (read, ball groups) if they want to actually play healers effectively. The result is entirely predictable: weaker zergs, stronger ball groups.)

Joy_Division

StaticWave wrote: »

I still don't get the logic of the argument "I can't solo heal and go where I want to" against behavioral change. There is no such thing as "solo healing". If you're playing a healer, then you are most likely zerging, period. I mean, how else are you going to heal when no people are there to heal? People who claim they solo heal are like those "solo players" that claim they solo but actually surf in a large zerg. Why not just get in a group and be more productive? The group is only good if everyone's in sync, and if you're not agreeing with the leader then simply leave and form your own groups. Cyrodiil is full of uncoordinated players who will gladly join a group you form. Why is it so hard to understand lol?

Healers basically want to do the same thing most DPS have done since launch: do their own thing while zerg-surfing without being singularly blamed for all the lag caused in Cyrodiil.

The majority of players in a faction stack are "solo" DPS who seem to have no problem pointing accusatory fingers and pretending that when they spam skills and flood the server with calculations for proc sets, double dot poisons, status effects, etc., their behavior is not noticeably contributing to server overload. If you play in Cyrodiil on anything, you are most likely zerging, period.

Since you can;t seem to grasp why people might not want to just join a PuG group despite the many responses in this thread, why don't you experience for yourself. EVERY time you log into cyrodiil type LFG and see how it goes for say a year.

techyeshic

So far I don't see any change of behavior. Everyone stacks in the same place , just subdivided in smaller groups. Maybe zerg surfers were reduced, but ate they really causing any issue? Really?

Just eliminate hot stacking, put a recourse timer on BEING cleansed rather than activating the ability or do self only versions. Then people will die equally capable or incapable rather than placing an artificial boost to groups that really don't need it.

alterfenixeb17_ESO

techyeshic wrote: »

So far I don't see any change of behavior. Everyone stacks in the same place , just subdivided in smaller groups. Maybe zerg surfers were reduced, but ate they really causing any issue? Really?

Tbh my exact observation from yesterdays GH EU. Also performance more less same really but overall picture again all DC running Chalman with all EP pushing Aleswell. And those 1 - 2 leaders trying to make some difference but this time counting on no more than 12 people respectively in their groups (while before it was up to 24).