New Trading System ideas

JKorr

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

New players and guilds still have options, but you never see new guilds in capital traders for more than a week. They simply can't afford to compete with the big established guilds who hold raffles, drawings, auctions, sell crowns, etc.

What is interesting is I used to be in this trade guild that in the early days of this game they were in one of the hottest locations. They happened to have a very solid leader who managed the guild well. Unfortunatly he left the game and those that took over leadership were not as wise at leading the guild.

Their biggest mistakes were not actively managing the roster. The other big mistake they made was not moving to the capital cities when they became the central locations. Instead of working to right the boat, one of their assistant leads would come to the forums complaining that they could not get into a good city and wanting more traders added to help them.

A couple of years ago new leadership took over and began to actively manage the guild. They were successful in improving the guilds situation and moving them to a capital city and have continued to maintain their location.

The success in the beginning and in recent years has been due to wise leadership and hard work. Interestingly, every good guild I have been in, regardless of its focus, had leaders who lead by action and actually manage the roster.

Success is something every guild leader can bring to their guild if they actually put in the effort.

This story right here is one of the reasons I don't like trading being tied to guilds. You could give me a million stories of jesus himself coming down and saving a guild and making it the best it can be, with cheap dues, giveaways and the most social aspects where everyone sings Kumbaya and gets along.

And I'll tell you of just as many where the guild leaders completely ignore the guild, and the people who pay guild dues each week (20K!) have to worry about not getting a spot to sell. You know how *** it is to go without a trader for a week? Imagine it every other week.

And then come to find out it was because they were feuding with several other big trading guilds who would purposely outbid them in ghost guilds to blacklist them from capital cities. Imagine being happy to get Alanor after being shut out for 2 weeks straight.

The best part of this game is always going to be the worst thing about the game. People can, and WILL be a-holes to one another when resources are limited.

When in a guild with lame leaders leave the guild and find a decent one. It really is that simple. Whatever you want to do is your choice but trading is going to be linked to guilds for a long time to come. This system is what Zos wanted and it works.

1. That guild will continue being a bad guild.
2. The guilds that harassed that guild will continue being a bad guild
3. The people having to change guilds every few months will not have a good view of guilds (especially trade guilds) and will lose out on the hundreds of millions of gold invested in them.
4. Zos can and will change their minds at any time, since there's so many good option that don't put control of trading into the hands of power hungry sociapaths who don't see the 500 members as actual people.

1 & 2. Again, leave a bad guild. That is very simple and straight towards. If some members are not sharp enough to figure this out then that is their problem.
3. I have been in two trade guilds in over six years with the game. It does not take much effort to find a decent trade guild.
4. Oh yes, Zos can change their mind at any time. Will they change it anytime soon, very unlikely as the system is working and it has proven to be a good system. Just because some people do no like it does not make it a bad system. The power-hungry sociopaths part seems rather that someone just does not like guilds at all and irrelevant to the trade guilds.

I love guilds, but they don't need to be part of the trading process.

In ESO they are and they will continue to be for a long time to come.

I just assumed you did not like guilds since you referred to guild leaders as power-hungry sociopaths. That would not apply only to a specific guild.

As long as we are put against each other for the privilege of being able to trade conveniently we will continue to have threads like this, for a long time to come. More traders would only make things harder for buyers. In ESO, if you want to trade consistently in a good place you have to join a big trading guild and deal with everything that comes with it, whether you want to or not.

"Trading is not for casuals or new players"

That's the biggest problem with the guild system, as you have to continue to be active and continue to sell things to even be in a trading guild. And if you're in the wrong trading guild? Well, good luck selling your stuff in guild only , or in chat.[/quguild,,

I have 5 guilds currently. Know that the ONE requirement every one of them has? You have to log into the game. The trading guild, the crafting guild, and my social guilds. If you aren't playing the game, you really don't need to be in a guild. Since early release I've moved guilds multiple times as what I wanted from a guild and how my playing has changed.

None of my guilds, including the trading guild, have sales requirements. I've gone several weeks without selling anything. I was logging in and playing, but didn't bother selling anything. NOT ALL GUILDS DEMAND DUES OR SALES. Would you like the names of my guilds so you can verify it? None of them have an iron clad legally binding contract that stat I'm nor allowed to quit and find a new guild, either.

If trading is not for casuals or new players, why can I do the casual trading I do? If trading isn't for new players, why am I allowed to keep inviting new players to my guilds, and showing them how the traders work? Why haven't the guild masters stopped me?

Raideen

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

If only there were a trading system that could accommodate all play-styles and avoid toxic guild harassment...

And what amazing system would this be? Because I've never heard of one. Global auctionhouses are horrible too.

Seriously, the only real issue here is that consoles don't have addons to make things slightly more convinient.

Addons for Guild Trading creates a central auction house system. All trade addons should be banned, but ZOS allows them because they know Central Auction Houses work better.

The Guild Trade system in ESO lost its merit when the first addons for it came out. Rich players are buying up GOBS of items right now and relisting, inflating the prices. Mundane Runes, Platings (especially Iridium), anything that gets listed super cheap and a plethora of other items are being flipped FAST. Addons permit this, one of the desired traits of a Guild Trade system is that it slowed this behavior to the point of it not being profitable.

Raideen

Stinkyremy wrote: »

The in game trading guild system is terrible.
I recently wanted a few items and had to spend hours going to literally every trader in game looking for them which is very time consuming especially because of loading screens, but also that the items may be in guild stores that weren't with a trader that week.
That being said a universal trader system would be a means for people to be able to gouge prices.

On PC there are addons that allow you to find the cheap items. Prices are already being gouged. Bought up by a few and relisted.

Right now the guild trader system works as central auction house because of addons. This of course is only on PC.

Goregrinder

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

2. There are small guilds with out of the way traders who are donation based but Its a lot harder to sell in those places without add-ons. You'll get 50-75% of your stuff back in a month as expired.

That's entirely the point of a casual trader location that's "off the beaten path", @PizzaCat82.

Being in a casual trading guild means a lower tier of work to keep the guild going (and keeping the trader location).

It also means less dues (or in many cases no dues).

Sure, the traffic is lower ... but that's what the mellow environment is for.

Players have to be aware of whether this is the kind of guild that fits their desired trading playstyle.

Especially if they're a new player that needs to sell their Primal Style Book and 5 Oko Essence Runes they found completing the zone main quest.

If only there were a trading system that could accommodate all play-styles and avoid toxic guild harassment...

The one in star wars works relly good. Its called the GTN. They have these kiosks where we can go and list things to sell. When someone buys your item you get a mail with your credits (star wars uses credits not gold). It works really good for me and my friends.

You're basically describing an auction house my dude.

JKorr

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

DragonRacer wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Idle curiosity question, at this point.

If all of the normal/rank and file type people leave a badly led truly sucky/toxic guild, the "guild" will still technically exist, assuming the officers who were making tons of gold or whatever stay. If the word is out that guild "Fantabulous Exploiters" scams/cheats/shortchanges their members, who is going to join, or stay once they do? How long will the guild exist if only the officers/gm stay? With no minions to go out and farm and supply the store, it will fall back on the gm/officers. If their whole reason to have a guild is to "rake in the gold", how long will they last if its only them left to do the work? If the bad gm/officers start a new guild, the same applies; people leave because the gm/guild exploits its members. How many times are the bad actors going to restart a new guild from scratch?

If the guilds/officers are harassing players for joining another guild or not joining their guild, or whatever reason they might have, why aren't the players reporting the harassment? In the case of consoles to all the appropriate agencies, Zenimax/Microsoft/Sony. If multiple reports about gm "X" start showing up, and it is against the ToS, then action will be taken. Might take a long time, might never hear the outcome, but there are people who go to reddit to complain they got banned, so it happens.

If players find a good guild with no dues, or low dues because they just want to sell stuff, not acquire more gold than the Divines, exactly how are they "losing out on the hundreds of millions of gold invested in them" if they decide to switch to a different guild? They didn't invest "hundreds of millions of gold" in the guild in the first place.

If no one follows the sociopaths, there won't be 500 people they can abuse.

I don't know a single guild that doesn't have a discord to air their dirty laundry. You can't report what doesn't happen in the game.

1. Bad guilds usually start out as good guilds and to 90% of the members the drama happens behind the scenes. The average guild newbie does not concern himself with securing a trader, or holding raffles/donations/etc.
2. People will join and stay as long as there's a good trader, they do not care about drama and do not care about guild chat
3. Eventually, the money will run out as people will leave when the trader does not get bought. Once the exudus begins it rarely gets turned around. Suddenly your 500 person guild turns into a 400 and you have a lot harder time getting enough to get that trader.. which then turns it in to a 300 or 200.. and then the last hundred are usually AFK that you'd be kicking if someone wanted to join the guild to replace them. I'd say this process could take 3-4 months if everything is kept hush hush and lots of events are happening in the game world to distract them
4. Sociapaths act like normal people most of the time and often move up to the top ranks of a guild quickly. We were asked on several occasions by officers in bigger guilds to make them an officer in our guild since we were also a capital city trader. Thats how the first feuds started was us saying no to that request.
5. Tons of people donate to a guild to try and get it back on track once it starts declining. Sales might not be good, inactives might go up, raffle might not be great. But we still need that trader. No trader = Death.

Yes, because screenshots don't exist. Multiple people reporting the same information are obviously doing it for the *** and giggles and took the time and effort to photoshop it all.

True. You know what though, when my dues and/or sales quotas keep going up, and I see other people leaving the guild, I'm going to wonder what is going on. And, hoping to avoid pointless drama, I would leave. There is no legally binding official document signed that says I can't leave a guild.

No matter how good the trader is, when the cost outweighs the returns, there is a limit to what people will be willing to pay. If, in addition to the *real* cost of winning the super uber trader spot the gm/officers are scamming gold from members, that point will be reached sooner rather than later.

Yes, the gold for the uber super trader will run out. That guild will no longer be teh uberest leetest superduper trading guild on Nirn. It would be up to the members whether to disband, or just maybe turn the teh uberest leetest superduper trading guild on Nirn into a normal trading guild. Good traders can be won for less than the world wide debt of Nirn. People might not make 2 million gold an hour every hour, but they will make gold. With 5 guilds that could all have traders it would add up. Only the super fixated obsessed people might be unhappy, but then, they can make their own superduper uber leet platinum chromium plated trading guild.

So, someone was making some kind of effort to make a cartel/mafia? Why would officers in bigger guilds ask your guild to make anyone an officer? Collusion? Spying? Again, hinky behavior is a good hint to find a better guild.

Yes, again. For the super uber leet dominate all of Nirn trading guild, losing the one specific trader *consistently* is bad. However there is more than *one* trader in the game. Having the mindset that getting a specific trader is the only way to have a trading guild isn't necessarily the best thing however. If the guild isn't overcharging exorbitant amounts for items they will still get sales at a different location.

If Pizzacat’s guild was being dictated to place certain people as officers, then likely that guild was aligned with the mafia on our server. An alliance of guilds where the GMs dictate that those sort of things and assign who can bid on what trader and they all basically hold down the capitals. And were a real plague for every single non-mafia trading guild because of using ghost guilds (empty guilds selling little or nothing) to either push rival guilds out or save backup spots for themselves and their friends. And/or sell those ghost guild spots after flip to the guilds who lost.

Multi-bidding, for all its woes, really did help clean that problem of ghost guilds up almost completely on our server, so I’ll forever be grateful for that change, even though I had extreme reservations about it at first (like basically every trading guild GM did). I know I am in the minority in that opinion, as it seems to have hurt PC far more, from the threads I’ve observed.

The mafia is still around and they go back and forth with the ex-mafia guilds battling it out for the capitals.

Meanwhile, I’m just over here happy with the sub-capitals and running my own large donation-based independent guild. Wondering if that apparently also makes me a sociopath. *shrugs*

(Also, inb4 “the mafia doesn’t exist/dumb conspiracy theory” people get here...)

By the Divines; you mean a trading guild can actually survive without charging billions in dues? And there really is more than one trader in the game? [Yes, sarcasm intended.]

Yes, from former wonderful [allegedly] people who came here to boast about their mafia harassment and intimidation tactics on console, I believe the "mafia" mindset does exist. Why they are allowed to get away with it is one of my questions. Why people put up with it is another.

The majority of players, *in my opinion*, would be perfectly happy with a donation/voluntary raffle based guild. The people who want to sell the odd motif or event loot aren't going to make enough of a profit to pay thousands in dues or sales to worry about a super top tier uber trading guild. Those do exist for people who want to play Elder Scrolls Traders Online.

1. They are allowed to get away with it because there's always another high level guild to join, and ZOS does not take action unless they are absolutely forced to (just reporting someone often does nothing, even in cases of scamming)reequi
2. There are small guilds with out of the way traders who are donation based but Its a lot harder to sell in those places without add-ons. You'll get 50-75% of your stuff back in a month as expired.

Okay, I'm confused.

You say trading isn't for casuals or new players, but the no dues/no sales requirements guilds are exactly what casuals and new players can benefit from. If they find they like trading they can always move up to a higher volume guild that might ask for dues or sales. If they want to continue casual once every few months event item trading they can do that too.

I don't use TTC because I've seen examples of how it can be abused. I do have MM, and that only sees information from *my* guilds. I price items for amounts I consider fair. I've had items I priced too high expire, and I've had had everything I listed sell in 30 minutes. I'll guess I was low on those. I am a casual trader, making billions of gold every day isn't how I want to spend my playing time. If people don't do stupid get rich quick pricing, stuff sells.

PizzaCat82

JKorr wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

DragonRacer wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Idle curiosity question, at this point.

If all of the normal/rank and file type people leave a badly led truly sucky/toxic guild, the "guild" will still technically exist, assuming the officers who were making tons of gold or whatever stay. If the word is out that guild "Fantabulous Exploiters" scams/cheats/shortchanges their members, who is going to join, or stay once they do? How long will the guild exist if only the officers/gm stay? With no minions to go out and farm and supply the store, it will fall back on the gm/officers. If their whole reason to have a guild is to "rake in the gold", how long will they last if its only them left to do the work? If the bad gm/officers start a new guild, the same applies; people leave because the gm/guild exploits its members. How many times are the bad actors going to restart a new guild from scratch?

If the guilds/officers are harassing players for joining another guild or not joining their guild, or whatever reason they might have, why aren't the players reporting the harassment? In the case of consoles to all the appropriate agencies, Zenimax/Microsoft/Sony. If multiple reports about gm "X" start showing up, and it is against the ToS, then action will be taken. Might take a long time, might never hear the outcome, but there are people who go to reddit to complain they got banned, so it happens.

If players find a good guild with no dues, or low dues because they just want to sell stuff, not acquire more gold than the Divines, exactly how are they "losing out on the hundreds of millions of gold invested in them" if they decide to switch to a different guild? They didn't invest "hundreds of millions of gold" in the guild in the first place.

If no one follows the sociopaths, there won't be 500 people they can abuse.

I don't know a single guild that doesn't have a discord to air their dirty laundry. You can't report what doesn't happen in the game.

1. Bad guilds usually start out as good guilds and to 90% of the members the drama happens behind the scenes. The average guild newbie does not concern himself with securing a trader, or holding raffles/donations/etc.
2. People will join and stay as long as there's a good trader, they do not care about drama and do not care about guild chat
3. Eventually, the money will run out as people will leave when the trader does not get bought. Once the exudus begins it rarely gets turned around. Suddenly your 500 person guild turns into a 400 and you have a lot harder time getting enough to get that trader.. which then turns it in to a 300 or 200.. and then the last hundred are usually AFK that you'd be kicking if someone wanted to join the guild to replace them. I'd say this process could take 3-4 months if everything is kept hush hush and lots of events are happening in the game world to distract them
4. Sociapaths act like normal people most of the time and often move up to the top ranks of a guild quickly. We were asked on several occasions by officers in bigger guilds to make them an officer in our guild since we were also a capital city trader. Thats how the first feuds started was us saying no to that request.
5. Tons of people donate to a guild to try and get it back on track once it starts declining. Sales might not be good, inactives might go up, raffle might not be great. But we still need that trader. No trader = Death.

Yes, because screenshots don't exist. Multiple people reporting the same information are obviously doing it for the *** and giggles and took the time and effort to photoshop it all.

True. You know what though, when my dues and/or sales quotas keep going up, and I see other people leaving the guild, I'm going to wonder what is going on. And, hoping to avoid pointless drama, I would leave. There is no legally binding official document signed that says I can't leave a guild.

No matter how good the trader is, when the cost outweighs the returns, there is a limit to what people will be willing to pay. If, in addition to the *real* cost of winning the super uber trader spot the gm/officers are scamming gold from members, that point will be reached sooner rather than later.

Yes, the gold for the uber super trader will run out. That guild will no longer be teh uberest leetest superduper trading guild on Nirn. It would be up to the members whether to disband, or just maybe turn the teh uberest leetest superduper trading guild on Nirn into a normal trading guild. Good traders can be won for less than the world wide debt of Nirn. People might not make 2 million gold an hour every hour, but they will make gold. With 5 guilds that could all have traders it would add up. Only the super fixated obsessed people might be unhappy, but then, they can make their own superduper uber leet platinum chromium plated trading guild.

So, someone was making some kind of effort to make a cartel/mafia? Why would officers in bigger guilds ask your guild to make anyone an officer? Collusion? Spying? Again, hinky behavior is a good hint to find a better guild.

Yes, again. For the super uber leet dominate all of Nirn trading guild, losing the one specific trader *consistently* is bad. However there is more than *one* trader in the game. Having the mindset that getting a specific trader is the only way to have a trading guild isn't necessarily the best thing however. If the guild isn't overcharging exorbitant amounts for items they will still get sales at a different location.

If Pizzacat’s guild was being dictated to place certain people as officers, then likely that guild was aligned with the mafia on our server. An alliance of guilds where the GMs dictate that those sort of things and assign who can bid on what trader and they all basically hold down the capitals. And were a real plague for every single non-mafia trading guild because of using ghost guilds (empty guilds selling little or nothing) to either push rival guilds out or save backup spots for themselves and their friends. And/or sell those ghost guild spots after flip to the guilds who lost.

Multi-bidding, for all its woes, really did help clean that problem of ghost guilds up almost completely on our server, so I’ll forever be grateful for that change, even though I had extreme reservations about it at first (like basically every trading guild GM did). I know I am in the minority in that opinion, as it seems to have hurt PC far more, from the threads I’ve observed.

The mafia is still around and they go back and forth with the ex-mafia guilds battling it out for the capitals.

Meanwhile, I’m just over here happy with the sub-capitals and running my own large donation-based independent guild. Wondering if that apparently also makes me a sociopath. *shrugs*

(Also, inb4 “the mafia doesn’t exist/dumb conspiracy theory” people get here...)

By the Divines; you mean a trading guild can actually survive without charging billions in dues? And there really is more than one trader in the game? [Yes, sarcasm intended.]

Yes, from former wonderful [allegedly] people who came here to boast about their mafia harassment and intimidation tactics on console, I believe the "mafia" mindset does exist. Why they are allowed to get away with it is one of my questions. Why people put up with it is another.

The majority of players, *in my opinion*, would be perfectly happy with a donation/voluntary raffle based guild. The people who want to sell the odd motif or event loot aren't going to make enough of a profit to pay thousands in dues or sales to worry about a super top tier uber trading guild. Those do exist for people who want to play Elder Scrolls Traders Online.

1. They are allowed to get away with it because there's always another high level guild to join, and ZOS does not take action unless they are absolutely forced to (just reporting someone often does nothing, even in cases of scamming)reequi
2. There are small guilds with out of the way traders who are donation based but Its a lot harder to sell in those places without add-ons. You'll get 50-75% of your stuff back in a month as expired.

Okay, I'm confused.

You say trading isn't for casuals or new players, but the no dues/no sales requirements guilds are exactly what casuals and new players can benefit from. If they find they like trading they can always move up to a higher volume guild that might ask for dues or sales. If they want to continue casual once every few months event item trading they can do that too.

I don't use TTC because I've seen examples of how it can be abused. I do have MM, and that only sees information from *my* guilds. I price items for amounts I consider fair. I've had items I priced too high expire, and I've had had everything I listed sell in 30 minutes. I'll guess I was low on those. I am a casual trader, making billions of gold every day isn't how I want to spend my playing time. If people don't do stupid get rich quick pricing, stuff sells.

I was quoting an argument levied many times "If all you're selling is a motif, maybe a trader isn't for you"

Not every new player wants to join a guild to be able to sell their stuff. Even as an older player, I'd love an alternative to the guild trader system. Or at least one that makes it less of a competition that it currently is. I've described the issues that can occur when the bidding is fierce and ZOS wont take action on people. I've listed out the ways a guild can go from a good guild to a bad one, not to mention bank theft and sabotage (we had our whole roster kicked by a rogue admin who is still playing to this day)

Sylvermynx

I have to say.... I remember my first week in RIFT. In that week, I wound up with some really great item dropping from a mob - a really great item I could sell for a LOT of gold (I looked it up....) And because RIFT had a global option for selling/buying, I got to get some really good gold for it - instead of being poor for months (as RIFT was just as stingy with gold as WoW....)

In this game, I would have to join a trading guild to simply list an item to make some gold. Sorry. Not happening. I don't care what the devs think is a "unique" system - I don't do guilds, I've never done guilds (other than my own in WoW and RIFT - family and friends only) and I'm not going to mess with the stupidest trading system I've ever run across.

Fortunately, gold is super easy to make in this game. Were it not, I would not still be subbing two accounts. Actually, if gold was as hard to come by as in WoW and RIFT, I wouldn't even be playing this game.

Cryptical

bmnoble wrote: »

I much prefer needing to race to the individual traders, its gives people a fighting chance of getting the items they are after instead of a central auction house where a few rich players can check the list of items a few times a day and buy up every single cheap thing, or every one of a rare item and relist it for a massive price hike.

The fact those looking to re list items have to spend a few hours instead of a few minutes to get their hands on the cheaper items gives players the chance to snap up a good deal for themselves.

People speculate that a few rich players will form a cabal and try to control the market for an item, but i have seen such an attempt and it failed.

It was a couple years ago during a time when I was making pocket change by selling the mythic xp potions. From handwritten notes gathered from many hours going from trader to trader over time, I knew where a number of heavy farmers sold their harvest and were much more likely to have found some dust.

A group of people grabbed every available aetherial dust and held on to them. For 3 weeks the game was cleaned out of dust, none could be found anywhere. It takes quite a while to visit every trader, especially if you’re an adult with something called a job and you do adult things like cook your own food and wash your own clothes, but I managed to visit every trader in the game (including thief refuges) several times in each of the weeks of the manufactured scarcity.

Then, large amounts of aetherial dust appeared for sale in mournhold and grahtwood, jacked up to 125k. Usual price was 70k. Guess what? I bought none. It made no economic sense to buy any at the jacked price. I knew that my customers wouldn’t be willing to pay more - the mythic potion is a luxury xp boost compared to psijic pots.

So I kept track through watching seller names and time listed, and those aetherial dusts sat there. A few did sell at the jacked price, but when your cabal has scooped up almost 200 dust and more than 190 of them expire at the end of a month, and more than 180 of them expire at the end of a second month... that’s a failed attempt at controlling a rare item. I can only imagine they had handwritten notes like I did, because the traders with the heavy flower picking farmers remained cleaned out of dust.

Ultimately, their attempt at price gouging a rare item was a HARD failure because the market does not function the way you think. I’m sure the cabal was angry and frustrated over their failure, because they had the same thought you do that price manipulation could be done that way. But the market doesn’t actually function like that. Just because they were selling doesn’t mean people will buy - it actually functions the other way around. If someone is waving cash then another person will bust their butt to find the product that is desired in order to sell it at a profit.

In the game, nothing will ever get too far from a reasonable market price due to every listing being in competition with the value of the amount of time required for someone to get it for them self. If magically a cabal of 50 managed to buy up every bit of columbine and relisted at double, even without any competitors it would still be in competition with how much time it would take a buyer to pick it themselves.

The idea that separate traders is a protection against cabal action simply does not hold water. It is an idea that sounds smart, but it fails further scrutiny and most importantly of all has been proven a failure by those who attempted.

At best it can be nudged.

barney2525

JKorr wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

What's wrong with current system?

ForzaRammer wrote: »

the current system is perfectly fine

That's not the discussion.

GW2, WoW, SWTOR, any of those models are good to me.

One global AH/trade system.

Yes, that would be simply stupendous. Hundreds of pages of the same item, with the prices constantly going lower until someone buys most or all of it, and relists it at their price. Marvelous idea. No one would mind sifting throught dozens of pages to find what they want to buy, right? No one complains about doing that in the current system? People who don't want to make trading their full time job will be just fine spending thousands on mats because the botters will be farming like crazy. Sounds like a perfect system. /sarcasm

For a starter, a GAH always lists the lowest price on the front page. No sifting . Period.
For seconds, THIS Trader system you not only have to Sift, you have to waste time running around for 2 - 3 hours sifting through EVERY Trader that does Not even have the item you are looking for. And by the time you find it, you are so frustrated, you buy it and HOPE you paid a reasonable price.

Third, if you have ever played a game with a GAH, you KNOW no one buys up everything - unless the population of the game has gotten so small there are few players listing. If this happens, that game has more major problems than worrying about a GAH.

A GAH is instantaneous. You bring it up, see what the lowest current price is, and list your item. Done. If anyone goes in and ' buys all the items' , they go broke. They can't sell the item at some exorbitant price because hundreds of players will list new at the normal price.

I play in 3 MMOs with GAH and none has any of the issues you claim.

Varana

DigitalHype wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

DigitalHype wrote: »

What is to stop the owners of the TTC data from making a pricing table with low water marks for each high volume item that could be flipped for a hefty profit and then automatically scanning the listings before they post them externally? Allowing them a first chance at buying.

This is a genuine question. Is there anything other than their integrity that prevents that from a techincal perspective?

Technically, it would probably work.
But not very well.
- TTC is not real-time. The seller has to have the extra tool running, they have to log out/reloadui after putting the item up for sale, or someone else has to scan the guild store and then again, log out/reloadui. It can be hours before an item ends up in TTC's data base.
- They would still need to physically travel in-game to those trader locations. With riding around and load-screens, that's an awful lot of time spent. If you know how to trade, and unless you absolutely want to sit on millions of gold for no particular reason, that's simply not worth the effort.
- I'm not sure how much the TTC guy actually even plays the game. The site seemed more of a proof-of concept thing that was meant to be helpful, and then got completely out of hand, with server costs and admin stuff and all that hassle.

Point 1 is the most important, though. You see a lot of entries in TTC's data base that are just gone - that's because between the seller putting the item up, or someone scanning the guild, and relogging to commit the data to TTC, there's too much delay so someone else snapped the item "manually". Having priority access to TTC's data base does not even guarantee you getting the good deals, so you would run around the game for nothing at all, most of the time.

You're saying you don't think its viable because there would be too many occurrences of the item being purchased either by an in-house buyer or someone who happened to be browsing at that merchant directly before the TTC maintainers got the update. I do agree this would sometimes happen. I don't think it would happen enough to make the scenario I presented less than worthwhile.

That scenario is already happening for everyone. Looking at the TTC website and curently travelling in-game and still sometimes losing the race. If someone knew about the listing before that race started, they are certainly going to do better, more often than not, compared to the rest of the buyers in the market.

Sure, they would do better.

But not better enough to make this endeavour actually worth your time.

We're not talking about buying at reasonable prices, or getting a somewhat-better-than-average deal. We're talking about items listed way below market price. And for those, the built-in delay of the TTC database is crucial. For these deals, it's not losing the race sometimes, it's losing the race quite often.

I'm not even really sure what you're insinuating here. That the developers of TTC constantly run around the game on two servers flipping items just to ruin your bargain price? Out of the staggeringly massive amount of items sold, they just happen to pick the items you want every time?
That scenario of you missing out on a good deal listed on TTC, is a very common occurrence, and for the best deals of common items, what will normally happen. There's no shady cabal necessary, that's just how the market works.

BlueRaven

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I have to say.... I remember my first week in RIFT. In that week, I wound up with some really great item dropping from a mob - a really great item I could sell for a LOT of gold (I looked it up....) And because RIFT had a global option for selling/buying, I got to get some really good gold for it - instead of being poor for months (as RIFT was just as stingy with gold as WoW....)

In this game, I would have to join a trading guild to simply list an item to make some gold. Sorry. Not happening. I don't care what the devs think is a "unique" system - I don't do guilds, I've never done guilds (other than my own in WoW and RIFT - family and friends only) and I'm not going to mess with the stupidest trading system I've ever run across.

Fortunately, gold is super easy to make in this game. Were it not, I would not still be subbing two accounts. Actually, if gold was as hard to come by as in WoW and RIFT, I wouldn't even be playing this game.

No you don’t have to join a trading guild, you just have to join a guild that has a trader. Completely different.

If my house decorating guild can maintain a trader without dues to its members, you can find a nice social guild with a trader that suits your interests.

JKorr

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

DragonRacer wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Idle curiosity question, at this point.

If all of the normal/rank and file type people leave a badly led truly sucky/toxic guild, the "guild" will still technically exist, assuming the officers who were making tons of gold or whatever stay. If the word is out that guild "Fantabulous Exploiters" scams/cheats/shortchanges their members, who is going to join, or stay once they do? How long will the guild exist if only the officers/gm stay? With no minions to go out and farm and supply the store, it will fall back on the gm/officers. If their whole reason to have a guild is to "rake in the gold", how long will they last if its only them left to do the work? If the bad gm/officers start a new guild, the same applies; people leave because the gm/guild exploits its members. How many times are the bad actors going to restart a new guild from scratch?

If the guilds/officers are harassing players for joining another guild or not joining their guild, or whatever reason they might have, why aren't the players reporting the harassment? In the case of consoles to all the appropriate agencies, Zenimax/Microsoft/Sony. If multiple reports about gm "X" start showing up, and it is against the ToS, then action will be taken. Might take a long time, might never hear the outcome, but there are people who go to reddit to complain they got banned, so it happens.

If players find a good guild with no dues, or low dues because they just want to sell stuff, not acquire more gold than the Divines, exactly how are they "losing out on the hundreds of millions of gold invested in them" if they decide to switch to a different guild? They didn't invest "hundreds of millions of gold" in the guild in the first place.

If no one follows the sociopaths, there won't be 500 people they can abuse.

I don't know a single guild that doesn't have a discord to air their dirty laundry. You can't report what doesn't happen in the game.

1. Bad guilds usually start out as good guilds and to 90% of the members the drama happens behind the scenes. The average guild newbie does not concern himself with securing a trader, or holding raffles/donations/etc.
2. People will join and stay as long as there's a good trader, they do not care about drama and do not care about guild chat
3. Eventually, the money will run out as people will leave when the trader does not get bought. Once the exudus begins it rarely gets turned around. Suddenly your 500 person guild turns into a 400 and you have a lot harder time getting enough to get that trader.. which then turns it in to a 300 or 200.. and then the last hundred are usually AFK that you'd be kicking if someone wanted to join the guild to replace them. I'd say this process could take 3-4 months if everything is kept hush hush and lots of events are happening in the game world to distract them
4. Sociapaths act like normal people most of the time and often move up to the top ranks of a guild quickly. We were asked on several occasions by officers in bigger guilds to make them an officer in our guild since we were also a capital city trader. Thats how the first feuds started was us saying no to that request.
5. Tons of people donate to a guild to try and get it back on track once it starts declining. Sales might not be good, inactives might go up, raffle might not be great. But we still need that trader. No trader = Death.

Yes, because screenshots don't exist. Multiple people reporting the same information are obviously doing it for the *** and giggles and took the time and effort to photoshop it all.

True. You know what though, when my dues and/or sales quotas keep going up, and I see other people leaving the guild, I'm going to wonder what is going on. And, hoping to avoid pointless drama, I would leave. There is no legally binding official document signed that says I can't leave a guild.

No matter how good the trader is, when the cost outweighs the returns, there is a limit to what people will be willing to pay. If, in addition to the *real* cost of winning the super uber trader spot the gm/officers are scamming gold from members, that point will be reached sooner rather than later.

Yes, the gold for the uber super trader will run out. That guild will no longer be teh uberest leetest superduper trading guild on Nirn. It would be up to the members whether to disband, or just maybe turn the teh uberest leetest superduper trading guild on Nirn into a normal trading guild. Good traders can be won for less than the world wide debt of Nirn. People might not make 2 million gold an hour every hour, but they will make gold. With 5 guilds that could all have traders it would add up. Only the super fixated obsessed people might be unhappy, but then, they can make their own superduper uber leet platinum chromium plated trading guild.

So, someone was making some kind of effort to make a cartel/mafia? Why would officers in bigger guilds ask your guild to make anyone an officer? Collusion? Spying? Again, hinky behavior is a good hint to find a better guild.

Yes, again. For the super uber leet dominate all of Nirn trading guild, losing the one specific trader *consistently* is bad. However there is more than *one* trader in the game. Having the mindset that getting a specific trader is the only way to have a trading guild isn't necessarily the best thing however. If the guild isn't overcharging exorbitant amounts for items they will still get sales at a different location.

If Pizzacat’s guild was being dictated to place certain people as officers, then likely that guild was aligned with the mafia on our server. An alliance of guilds where the GMs dictate that those sort of things and assign who can bid on what trader and they all basically hold down the capitals. And were a real plague for every single non-mafia trading guild because of using ghost guilds (empty guilds selling little or nothing) to either push rival guilds out or save backup spots for themselves and their friends. And/or sell those ghost guild spots after flip to the guilds who lost.

Multi-bidding, for all its woes, really did help clean that problem of ghost guilds up almost completely on our server, so I’ll forever be grateful for that change, even though I had extreme reservations about it at first (like basically every trading guild GM did). I know I am in the minority in that opinion, as it seems to have hurt PC far more, from the threads I’ve observed.

The mafia is still around and they go back and forth with the ex-mafia guilds battling it out for the capitals.

Meanwhile, I’m just over here happy with the sub-capitals and running my own large donation-based independent guild. Wondering if that apparently also makes me a sociopath. *shrugs*

(Also, inb4 “the mafia doesn’t exist/dumb conspiracy theory” people get here...)

By the Divines; you mean a trading guild can actually survive without charging billions in dues? And there really is more than one trader in the game? [Yes, sarcasm intended.]

Yes, from former wonderful [allegedly] people who came here to boast about their mafia harassment and intimidation tactics on console, I believe the "mafia" mindset does exist. Why they are allowed to get away with it is one of my questions. Why people put up with it is another.

The majority of players, *in my opinion*, would be perfectly happy with a donation/voluntary raffle based guild. The people who want to sell the odd motif or event loot aren't going to make enough of a profit to pay thousands in dues or sales to worry about a super top tier uber trading guild. Those do exist for people who want to play Elder Scrolls Traders Online.

1. They are allowed to get away with it because there's always another high level guild to join, and ZOS does not take action unless they are absolutely forced to (just reporting someone often does nothing, even in cases of scamming)reequi
2. There are small guilds with out of the way traders who are donation based but Its a lot harder to sell in those places without add-ons. You'll get 50-75% of your stuff back in a month as expired.

Okay, I'm confused.

You say trading isn't for casuals or new players, but the no dues/no sales requirements guilds are exactly what casuals and new players can benefit from. If they find they like trading they can always move up to a higher volume guild that might ask for dues or sales. If they want to continue casual once every few months event item trading they can do that too.

I don't use TTC because I've seen examples of how it can be abused. I do have MM, and that only sees information from *my* guilds. I price items for amounts I consider fair. I've had items I priced too high expire, and I've had had everything I listed sell in 30 minutes. I'll guess I was low on those. I am a casual trader, making billions of gold every day isn't how I want to spend my playing time. If people don't do stupid get rich quick pricing, stuff sells.

I was quoting an argument levied many times "If all you're selling is a motif, maybe a trader isn't for you"

Not every new player wants to join a guild to be able to sell their stuff. Even as an older player, I'd love an alternative to the guild trader system. Or at least one that makes it less of a competition that it currently is. I've described the issues that can occur when the bidding is fierce and ZOS wont take action on people. I've listed out the ways a guild can go from a good guild to a bad one, not to mention bank theft and sabotage (we had our whole roster kicked by a rogue admin who is still playing to this day)

Okay, I think I get it. You had bad experiences in the past, and don't seem to want to be open to the possibility that those bad experiences might not be unavoidable for others. People who want to trade casually might never see the competition you fear. If all the guild wants is a trader to sell stuff outside the guild, but does NOT expect to instantly make millions the trader they get doesn't have to be at Ral'kha or Belkarth, or Wayrest. People who trade casually and join no dues/no sale requirement guilds are not going to invest hours and hours of farming effort or contribute hundreds of thousands gold to boost or prop up the guild. If they are trading casually and the guild master/officers start being abusive, they would have no issues with leaving to find a better guild because they haven't invested their playing lives into the bad guild.

Your worst case scenarios seem to focus on the "trading is the end game" players who need the major trading spots to turn over the volume sales they need, not the casual/new players. I've never denied there are bad intentioned players. At least one of them has actually started a thread here asking if its against the ToS to make a guild, get people to fill the bank, then kick everyone, loot the bank and dissolve the guild. He was one of the "guild masters only make guilds to scam players out of gold" group. He refused to believe that gms actually worked hard, and didn't make billions in gold off the guild members. The only real protection from wonderful individuals like that is for players to have common sense and not be stupid. Ever raising dues, orders to deposit high value material in the guild bank, dictator-type behavior by the gm/officers would all be flags to leave.

None of my guilds allows brand new members access to the bank. Generally every event that gets new players in, there will be a few people who join the guilds, stay a few minutes, then leave. Those people found out they couldn't loot the bank, and left to find another guild that didn't have safeguards in place. We still offer invitations to new people, we just aren't stupid about it.

wolfie1.0.

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

What's wrong with current system?

ForzaRammer wrote: »

the current system is perfectly fine

That's not the discussion.

GW2, WoW, SWTOR, any of those models are good to me.

One global AH/trade system.

I would only favor a Global AH trader system if they wiped the server and did a full restart of everything that isn't an achievement, collectible, or crown store. essentially everything that can be traded, deconned, bought, sold, or reconed would need to be wiped from the game. All guild banks and craft bags wiped. They would also need to set up mandatory gold sinks that forcefully take out huge chunks of gold from the game, or make it so that gold is harder overall to farm. Only after doing all of this would a global AH system work in any meaningful way to produce a stable economy, leaving any of this peices out would cause a horrific interference in the existing economy and cause enough disruption to the system to effective end the game.

Pixiepumpkin

Goregrinder wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

2. There are small guilds with out of the way traders who are donation based but Its a lot harder to sell in those places without add-ons. You'll get 50-75% of your stuff back in a month as expired.

That's entirely the point of a casual trader location that's "off the beaten path", @PizzaCat82.

Being in a casual trading guild means a lower tier of work to keep the guild going (and keeping the trader location).

It also means less dues (or in many cases no dues).

Sure, the traffic is lower ... but that's what the mellow environment is for.

Players have to be aware of whether this is the kind of guild that fits their desired trading playstyle.

Especially if they're a new player that needs to sell their Primal Style Book and 5 Oko Essence Runes they found completing the zone main quest.

If only there were a trading system that could accommodate all play-styles and avoid toxic guild harassment...

The one in star wars works relly good. Its called the GTN. They have these kiosks where we can go and list things to sell. When someone buys your item you get a mail with your credits (star wars uses credits not gold). It works really good for me and my friends.

You're basically describing an auction house my dude.

I don't know what it's called, but it works relly good for me. I like the one in star wars, this one is hard to use and takes to much time

FineFeathered

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

I don't know what it's called, but it works relly good for me. I like the one in star wars, this one is hard to use and takes to much time

The one in Swtor is COMPLETELY controlled by bots. It may be easy to use, but it's totally hatched up. We get that kind of system here, and I'm gone. Central (GTN) or AH are way too easy to manipulate. The nice thing about this system is that it isn't. You like paying $45 million for a pair of gloves, Swtor will welcome you. I don't.

xericdx

The Trading system has become one of the "games" within the game. I can understand the frustration of those who do not like the system. Personally, I do like it and I have been both a casual and more "hardcore" trader (still, nowhere near to managing a trading guild, even a small one).

I think it is like a lot of other contents, some people like housing, some like trading, some PVE, some questing, some PVP, some are completionist, etc. And we all get frustrated when we "have to" go through different types of content to get what we want for the one we like (eg: PVE gear for PVP and vice-versa, difficult achievements for housing, etc.).

I don't see any solution that will be good for everyone unfortunately. Again, I understand that some would prefer a global action house but I personally would very much dislike it. It is as it is.

Side note, even when debating systems that would not negatively impact other players'enjoyment the community cannot agree (my personal battle is about too easy questing, see other posts I made )....so, well....

Auztinito

I think Auction Houses should be open to all players regardless of guild or not. It makes no sense and the only argument I'm seeing against it are "It's not for new players or casual". Essentially a bunch of toxic gatekeeping. Here I thought ESO had good community (on forums, at least) but the more time I spend on here, the more I notice this community likes to gatekeep and shut down critique. For even one slight or differing opinion it jumps to "go play other games", not realizing you're being toxic and gatekeeping the game, giving reasons for players to not play the game.

BlueRaven

Auztinito wrote: »

I think Auction Houses should be open to all players regardless of guild or not. It makes no sense and the only argument I'm seeing against it are "It's not for new players or casual". Essentially a bunch of toxic gatekeeping. Here I thought ESO had good community (on forums, at least) but the more time I spend on here, the more I notice this community likes to gatekeep and shut down critique. For even one slight or differing opinion it jumps to "go play other games", not realizing you're being toxic and gatekeeping the game, giving reasons for players to not play the game.

I am in a housing “no dues - no participation needed” guild that maintains a trader. Just log in once every two weeks.

A full on unregulated AH is a haven for bots and dupers. That creates much more toxicity then what we have now.

The current system is fine.

Auztinito

BlueRaven wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

I think Auction Houses should be open to all players regardless of guild or not. It makes no sense and the only argument I'm seeing against it are "It's not for new players or casual". Essentially a bunch of toxic gatekeeping. Here I thought ESO had good community (on forums, at least) but the more time I spend on here, the more I notice this community likes to gatekeep and shut down critique. For even one slight or differing opinion it jumps to "go play other games", not realizing you're being toxic and gatekeeping the game, giving reasons for players to not play the game.

I am in a housing “no dues - no participation needed” guild that maintains a trader. Just log in once every two weeks.

A full on unregulated AH is a haven for bots and dupers. That creates much more toxicity then what we have now.

The current system is fine.

Bots? Really? What's stopping ZOS from doing exactly what most MMOs do to bots (they are usually banned), I may ask? Are unequipped to moderate their own MMO? [snip] As for duping, that means they're using bugs, glitches, or cheating software and ZOS isn't doing anything to moderate. That speaks volumes about the current studios management of an MMO.

Edit: How is an open AH toxic, if may ask? The only consequences is that items that would be 15-100k would go down in prices because more players would be using and competing. On top of this, more players will buy things they want because they are cheaper.

BlueRaven

I am in four guilds that maintain traders. Only one of them having a guild requirement stricter then “just be online at least once every two weeks”.

All of my guilds are constantly looking for new members and none of them are the least bit toxic.

I will keep saying if my no dues housing guild and my no dues social guild can maintain traders, there is nothing wrong with the system.

I know joining a guild can be scary and intimidating for some people. I get that, I do, it’s why I don’t do dungeons using the lfg system.
But just remember quitting a guild you don’t like is very easy. And you don’t have to actually say anything in guild chat, if you don’t wish to.

LalMirchi

Auction House thread again "What is dead may never die"

AlnilamE

Auztinito wrote: »

I think Auction Houses should be open to all players regardless of guild or not. It makes no sense and the only argument I'm seeing against it are "It's not for new players or casual". Essentially a bunch of toxic gatekeeping. Here I thought ESO had good community (on forums, at least) but the more time I spend on here, the more I notice this community likes to gatekeep and shut down critique. For even one slight or differing opinion it jumps to "go play other games", not realizing you're being toxic and gatekeeping the game, giving reasons for players to not play the game.

It's not gatekeeping. It's trying to maintain an aspect of the game that we enjoy and that is unique to ESO.

We enjoy the buying and selling, shopping around, stumbling upon a deal, stuff like that. It adds a "human" aspect to the trading system that an Auction House doesn't have.

What would be the difference if, instead of having an Auction House, there was just an NPC that bought and sold everything there is in the game?

Also, you *can* trade with players if you are not in a guild. The game has a COD system, so you can mail things to people.

It's not like BDO where you can only trade potions directly to other players. Everything else has to go through the marketplace.

But I have to ask, why is "be in a guild" such a great hurdle? There are plenty of lovely guilds in ESO, and even if you are in one strictly for trading and want to be anti-social, you can just turn off guild chat and never interact with them.

BlueRaven

Auztinito wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

I think Auction Houses should be open to all players regardless of guild or not. It makes no sense and the only argument I'm seeing against it are "It's not for new players or casual". Essentially a bunch of toxic gatekeeping. Here I thought ESO had good community (on forums, at least) but the more time I spend on here, the more I notice this community likes to gatekeep and shut down critique. For even one slight or differing opinion it jumps to "go play other games", not realizing you're being toxic and gatekeeping the game, giving reasons for players to not play the game.

I am in a housing “no dues - no participation needed” guild that maintains a trader. Just log in once every two weeks.

A full on unregulated AH is a haven for bots and dupers. That creates much more toxicity then what we have now.

The current system is fine.

Bots? Really? What's stopping ZOS from doing exactly what most MMOs do to bots (they are usually banned), I may ask? Are unequipped to moderate their own MMO? [snip] As for duping, that means they're using bugs, glitches, or cheating software and ZOS isn't doing anything to moderate. That speaks volumes about the current studios management of an MMO.

Edit: How is an open AH toxic, if may ask? The only consequences is that items that would be 15-100k would go down in prices because more players would be using and competing. On top of this, more players will buy things they want because they are cheaper.

Bots need an outlet to sell there wares and the best defense against that are guilds. While the bot owner can maintain a guild on there own, they need a minimum number of accounts, and a guild filled with accounts with members having random letters and numbers is a big red flag.
No guild requirements makes life much easier for bots.

•••

An open AH introduces hyper infraction, as minimum prices can be maintained by only a few rich players. Again bots can simply buy out lower priced “in demand” items and resell them for three times the price. Look at WOW as an example, (or even in the real world look at PS5 sales and the scalping issue).
Basic mats will go through the roof, making just basic mat farming far more toxic. If you think mat farming now is bad, just wait until prices go through the roof. Players will be much more incentivized to “snipe” mats and chests (etc) from other players.

Sgrug

Auztinito wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

I think Auction Houses should be open to all players regardless of guild or not. It makes no sense and the only argument I'm seeing against it are "It's not for new players or casual". Essentially a bunch of toxic gatekeeping. Here I thought ESO had good community (on forums, at least) but the more time I spend on here, the more I notice this community likes to gatekeep and shut down critique. For even one slight or differing opinion it jumps to "go play other games", not realizing you're being toxic and gatekeeping the game, giving reasons for players to not play the game.

I am in a housing “no dues - no participation needed” guild that maintains a trader. Just log in once every two weeks.

A full on unregulated AH is a haven for bots and dupers. That creates much more toxicity then what we have now.

The current system is fine.

Bots? Really? What's stopping ZOS from doing exactly what most MMOs do to bots (they are usually banned), I may ask? Are unequipped to moderate their own MMO? [snip] As for duping, that means they're using bugs, glitches, or cheating software and ZOS isn't doing anything to moderate. That speaks volumes about the current studios management of an MMO.

Edit: How is an open AH toxic, if may ask? The only consequences is that items that would be 15-100k would go down in prices because more players would be using and competing. On top of this, more players will buy things they want because they are cheaper.

You got it a bit wrong. Low-end items will go down in price BUT anything of value will go UP in price. An AH will not give you cheaper prices on the items you actually want. It will also make the common items a causal can actually sell now for a profit go way down, taking away an entry item for casuals to make gold with.

It really is basic economics of availability and accessibility.

Auztinito

AlnilamE wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

I think Auction Houses should be open to all players regardless of guild or not. It makes no sense and the only argument I'm seeing against it are "It's not for new players or casual". Essentially a bunch of toxic gatekeeping. Here I thought ESO had good community (on forums, at least) but the more time I spend on here, the more I notice this community likes to gatekeep and shut down critique. For even one slight or differing opinion it jumps to "go play other games", not realizing you're being toxic and gatekeeping the game, giving reasons for players to not play the game.

It's not gatekeeping. It's trying to maintain an aspect of the game that we enjoy and that is unique to ESO.

We enjoy the buying and selling, shopping around, stumbling upon a deal, stuff like that. It adds a "human" aspect to the trading system that an Auction House doesn't have.

What would be the difference if, instead of having an Auction House, there was just an NPC that bought and sold everything there is in the game?

Also, you *can* trade with players if you are not in a guild. The game has a COD system, so you can mail things to people.

It's not like BDO where you can only trade potions directly to other players. Everything else has to go through the marketplace.

But I have to ask, why is "be in a guild" such a great hurdle? There are plenty of lovely guilds in ESO, and even if you are in one strictly for trading and want to be anti-social, you can just turn off guild chat and never interact with them.

Most guilds in alot of games feel too much like a clique in high school. Which group do you fit into and other crap like that. Not to mention some of constant chat drama that happens in guild chat. Public chat being that way is different because you're not apart of the public and can withdraw it from completely whereas guilds are something you are a part of regardless. Lastly, you have guild that breed "work your way up", "pull your own weight", and "don't be dead weight" types that asks for donations, consistent logins, raffles/raid nights, and ect where non-participation is rewarded with a swift kick. Most guilds have obligations and/or breed toxic environments.

It come down to why lots of players love MMOs even though they play most things solo. They like social aspects and seeing other players talking. They can join in/out of conversation at the drop of a hat. Guild don't produce that same environment and feeling.

AlnilamE

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I have to say.... I remember my first week in RIFT. In that week, I wound up with some really great item dropping from a mob - a really great item I could sell for a LOT of gold (I looked it up....) And because RIFT had a global option for selling/buying, I got to get some really good gold for it - instead of being poor for months (as RIFT was just as stingy with gold as WoW....)

In this game, I would have to join a trading guild to simply list an item to make some gold. Sorry. Not happening. I don't care what the devs think is a "unique" system - I don't do guilds, I've never done guilds (other than my own in WoW and RIFT - family and friends only) and I'm not going to mess with the stupidest trading system I've ever run across.

Fortunately, gold is super easy to make in this game. Were it not, I would not still be subbing two accounts. Actually, if gold was as hard to come by as in WoW and RIFT, I wouldn't even be playing this game.

You could also link the item in chat and people would tell you what it's worth. Then you could choose if you wanted to sell it or not. I imagine a fair amount of new people find Aetherial Dust or whatever it's called, or a purple furnishing plan and do exactly that.

Auztinito

Sgrug wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

I think Auction Houses should be open to all players regardless of guild or not. It makes no sense and the only argument I'm seeing against it are "It's not for new players or casual". Essentially a bunch of toxic gatekeeping. Here I thought ESO had good community (on forums, at least) but the more time I spend on here, the more I notice this community likes to gatekeep and shut down critique. For even one slight or differing opinion it jumps to "go play other games", not realizing you're being toxic and gatekeeping the game, giving reasons for players to not play the game.

I am in a housing “no dues - no participation needed” guild that maintains a trader. Just log in once every two weeks.

A full on unregulated AH is a haven for bots and dupers. That creates much more toxicity then what we have now.

The current system is fine.

Bots? Really? What's stopping ZOS from doing exactly what most MMOs do to bots (they are usually banned), I may ask? Are unequipped to moderate their own MMO? [snip] As for duping, that means they're using bugs, glitches, or cheating software and ZOS isn't doing anything to moderate. That speaks volumes about the current studios management of an MMO.

Edit: How is an open AH toxic, if may ask? The only consequences is that items that would be 15-100k would go down in prices because more players would be using and competing. On top of this, more players will buy things they want because they are cheaper.

You got it a bit wrong. Low-end items will go down in price BUT anything of value will go UP in price. An AH will not give you cheaper prices on the items you actually want. It will also make the common items a causal can actually sell now for a profit go way down, taking away an entry item for casuals to make gold with.

It really is basic economics of availability and accessibility.

Except there is nothing preventing from items being obnoxiously expensive now, anyway. So, if anything rises in value. It will either balance back out because more players selling items meaning they'll make more gold and when all players make more gold, they'll spend more gold.

Sgrug

Auztinito wrote: »

Sgrug wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

I think Auction Houses should be open to all players regardless of guild or not. It makes no sense and the only argument I'm seeing against it are "It's not for new players or casual". Essentially a bunch of toxic gatekeeping. Here I thought ESO had good community (on forums, at least) but the more time I spend on here, the more I notice this community likes to gatekeep and shut down critique. For even one slight or differing opinion it jumps to "go play other games", not realizing you're being toxic and gatekeeping the game, giving reasons for players to not play the game.

I am in a housing “no dues - no participation needed” guild that maintains a trader. Just log in once every two weeks.

A full on unregulated AH is a haven for bots and dupers. That creates much more toxicity then what we have now.

The current system is fine.

Bots? Really? What's stopping ZOS from doing exactly what most MMOs do to bots (they are usually banned), I may ask? Are unequipped to moderate their own MMO? [snip] As for duping, that means they're using bugs, glitches, or cheating software and ZOS isn't doing anything to moderate. That speaks volumes about the current studios management of an MMO.

Edit: How is an open AH toxic, if may ask? The only consequences is that items that would be 15-100k would go down in prices because more players would be using and competing. On top of this, more players will buy things they want because they are cheaper.

You got it a bit wrong. Low-end items will go down in price BUT anything of value will go UP in price. An AH will not give you cheaper prices on the items you actually want. It will also make the common items a causal can actually sell now for a profit go way down, taking away an entry item for casuals to make gold with.

It really is basic economics of availability and accessibility.

Except there is nothing preventing from items being obnoxiously expensive now, anyway. So, if anything rises in value. It will either balance back out because more players selling items meaning they'll make more gold and when all players make more gold, they'll spend more gold.

There very much is something preventing the prices from getting even higher, it is the current segmented GH structure which an AH would remove, resulting in the items becoming "obnoxiously expensive."

BlueRaven

Auztinito wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

I think Auction Houses should be open to all players regardless of guild or not. It makes no sense and the only argument I'm seeing against it are "It's not for new players or casual". Essentially a bunch of toxic gatekeeping. Here I thought ESO had good community (on forums, at least) but the more time I spend on here, the more I notice this community likes to gatekeep and shut down critique. For even one slight or differing opinion it jumps to "go play other games", not realizing you're being toxic and gatekeeping the game, giving reasons for players to not play the game.

It's not gatekeeping. It's trying to maintain an aspect of the game that we enjoy and that is unique to ESO.

We enjoy the buying and selling, shopping around, stumbling upon a deal, stuff like that. It adds a "human" aspect to the trading system that an Auction House doesn't have.

What would be the difference if, instead of having an Auction House, there was just an NPC that bought and sold everything there is in the game?

Also, you *can* trade with players if you are not in a guild. The game has a COD system, so you can mail things to people.

It's not like BDO where you can only trade potions directly to other players. Everything else has to go through the marketplace.

But I have to ask, why is "be in a guild" such a great hurdle? There are plenty of lovely guilds in ESO, and even if you are in one strictly for trading and want to be anti-social, you can just turn off guild chat and never interact with them.

Most guilds in alot of games feel too much like a clique in high school. Which group do you fit into and other crap like that. Not to mention some of constant chat drama that happens in guild chat. Public chat being that way is different because you're not apart of the public and can withdraw it from completely whereas guilds are something you are a part of regardless. Lastly, you have guild that breed "work your way up", "pull your own weight", and "don't be dead weight" types that asks for donations, consistent logins, raffles/raid nights, and ect where non-participation is rewarded with a swift kick. Most guilds have obligations and/or breed toxic environments.

It come down to why lots of players love MMOs even though they play most things solo. They like social aspects and seeing other players talking. They can join in/out of conversation at the drop of a hat. Guild don't produce that same environment and feeling.

Guilds in other mmo’s don’t need to maintain certain level of players for functionality. So high school cliques can propagate because usually they don’t “need” you.
Trading guilds need volume, so they need “happy” guildies, which works against bad environment guilds. Bad environment trading guilds are hampered because if they lose players they lose income, and a loss of income means they lose their trading spot.

Also there are plenty social guilds that maintain traders. You don’t have to be be in a trading guild. Join a guild that you have a common interest in (housing, RP, lore, age restricted [whatever]) there are plenty of guilds with traders that fit your interests.

Their are bad guilds true, but it seems to me that there are more “good” guilds then bad ones. And leaving a guild is easy, just find one you are interested in that has a trader.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Are people necroing auctionhouse threads now?

What does this count as, beating an undead horse?