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Why are Class spammables terrible?

OlumoGarbag
OlumoGarbag
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Almost all class spammables are worse then a generic weapon skilline/psijic spammable!
The only exceptions being stamblade,stamplar and magplar (melee) and the later ones got even heavy nerfed with the burning light nerf. Stamsorc/magsorc are kind of okay with their new class spammables but we will see soon.

So why is:
- Dk: whip/poop rock
- Warden: Birds
- Necro: Skulls
- Magblade: concealed weapon

Nearly not used in PvP and PvE?
Class abilities should always be slightly better then their non-class counterparts. Thats what makes each class unique.

- Poop rock is a terrible mix of melee cast time skill and range insta skill, while not really providing any reasonable damage.
- Birds behave like any other 700ms cast time skill, yet they a have significantly lower tooltip then snipe/dizzyswing/darkflare
- Skulls are Slow, have a low Tooltip and dont benefit at all from necros Dot increase passive
- concealed weapon doesent offer anything for getting into melee range except the cc in pvp and the passive for gankers

Please Zenimax make Class skills worth slotting!
class representative for the working class, non-cp, bwb and Trolling
  • TonyDemonLord
    TonyDemonLord
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    Crystal Shard is a very good spammable for sorcerer
    Xbox NA
  • TonyDemonLord
    TonyDemonLord
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    And for dragon knight noxious breath is also a very good spammable
    Xbox NA
  • Bashev
    Bashev
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    Because if they are unique as they used to be, it is way more difficult to balance the game.
    Because I can!
  • OlumoGarbag
    OlumoGarbag
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    Bashev wrote: »
    Because if they are unique as they used to be, it is way more difficult to balance the game.

    That is such a lame excuse, they literally have spreadsheet. Why not just make class skills +5% more healing/dmg then their exact counterpart
    class representative for the working class, non-cp, bwb and Trolling
  • Recapitated
    Recapitated
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    Magsorc has a spammable? What did I miss?
    Bashev wrote: »
    Because if they are unique as they used to be, it is way more difficult to balance the game.

    That is such a lame excuse, they literally have spreadsheet. Why not just make class skills +5% more healing/dmg then their exact counterpart

    Notice all the popular stam spammables have cast times and ele weapon has a complication attached to it. Force shock and Surprise Attack are the only ones I can think of that don't. So maybe in ZOS's mind they're not in the same column?
  • OlumoGarbag
    OlumoGarbag
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    Magsorc has a spammable? What did I miss?
    Bashev wrote: »
    Because if they are unique as they used to be, it is way more difficult to balance the game.

    That is such a lame excuse, they literally have spreadsheet. Why not just make class skills +5% more healing/dmg then their exact counterpart

    Notice all the popular stam spammables have cast times and ele weapon has a complication attached to it. Force shock and Surprise Attack are the only ones I can think of that don't. So maybe in ZOS's mind they're not in the same column?

    Yes cristall frags now proc of them selfes so its now viable to hardcast frags on pts.

    Well that still doesent mean class skills should be worse then their weapon skillline counterparts
    class representative for the working class, non-cp, bwb and Trolling
  • YandereGirlfriend
    YandereGirlfriend
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    Agree on basically all counts (except that I do kind of like Crystal Weapon, at least for ranged).

    DK Whip mechanics have to be the biggest car crash of design (followed closely by Birds) as it is essentially an anti-spammable, a skill that punishes you for using it. Why not provide the stacking 75 Weapon/Spell Damage for using the skill instead?

    As for Birds, as others have said, take away the Off-Balance condition for the Bleed and tone down the number of stacks. Speed up the animation. Distance Birds could also stand to be improved (and in my dreams it would do Frost Damage).

    I actually LOVE how cheesy the Necromancer skulls look and I want them to be good but they're just so slow and the morphs provide no real improvements in functionality. Making both morphs bounce by default and then speeding up the animation should be baseline improvements with more exotic improvements left to the morphs.
  • Recapitated
    Recapitated
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    Magsorc has a spammable? What did I miss?
    Bashev wrote: »
    Because if they are unique as they used to be, it is way more difficult to balance the game.

    That is such a lame excuse, they literally have spreadsheet. Why not just make class skills +5% more healing/dmg then their exact counterpart

    Notice all the popular stam spammables have cast times and ele weapon has a complication attached to it. Force shock and Surprise Attack are the only ones I can think of that don't. So maybe in ZOS's mind they're not in the same column?

    Yes cristall frags now proc of them selfes so its now viable to hardcast frags on pts.

    Well that still doesent mean class skills should be worse then their weapon skillline counterparts

    Yeah I agree, js.

    Most of the issues you mentioned are about the skills being clunky, if the cast times and travel times felt smoother would that solve the issue or is the problem mainly mechanical in your mind (tooltips being low, added effects insignificant etc)
  • OlumoGarbag
    OlumoGarbag
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    Magsorc has a spammable? What did I miss?
    Bashev wrote: »
    Because if they are unique as they used to be, it is way more difficult to balance the game.

    That is such a lame excuse, they literally have spreadsheet. Why not just make class skills +5% more healing/dmg then their exact counterpart

    Notice all the popular stam spammables have cast times and ele weapon has a complication attached to it. Force shock and Surprise Attack are the only ones I can think of that don't. So maybe in ZOS's mind they're not in the same column?

    Yes cristall frags now proc of them selfes so its now viable to hardcast frags on pts.

    Well that still doesent mean class skills should be worse then their weapon skillline counterparts

    Yeah I agree, js.

    Most of the issues you mentioned are about the skills being clunky, if the cast times and travel times felt smoother would that solve the issue or is the problem mainly mechanical in your mind (tooltips being low, added effects insignificant etc)

    Well not only about being clunky. Magicka birds/necro skulls/poop rock/whip are just so much more inferiour to use compared to the meta spammable in pvp/pve the only reason to slot them would be if they increased dmg and functinality.
    class representative for the working class, non-cp, bwb and Trolling
  • Skjaldbjorn
    Skjaldbjorn
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    As for Birds, as others have said, take away the Off-Balance condition for the Bleed and tone down the number of stacks. Speed up the animation. Distance Birds could also stand to be improved (and in my dreams it would do Frost Damage).

    Ffs yes. This spammable would be fine if we actually had real control over the stacks. Please for the love of god lol. I hate that it's not melee and can't proc stuff. I hate the speed of it. I'd be willing to look past all that if I could just control the damn bleeds.

  • Jodynn
    Jodynn
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    Wrecking Blow is better than Surprise Attack for StamBlade in PvE and PvP dizzying swing is better in general.
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
    The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
  • Jodynn
    Jodynn
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    Whip is strong but not strong enough and the seething mechanic is backwards as a spammable, it should also just cost less with each stack to help our terrible sustain issue.
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
    The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
  • lucky_Sage
    lucky_Sage
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    If a Magdk in pvp is using molten whip it is not a spammable. Engulfing flames is more spammable but not much of one how there class plays and has to burst people don’t have really one not often I use whip multi times.
    DC PC NA
    Magdk - main
    Stamcro - alt

    AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
    magdk
    magblade
    stamplar
    magden
    magsorc

  • Jodynn
    Jodynn
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    lucky_Sage wrote: »
    If a Magdk in pvp is using molten whip it is not a spammable. Engulfing flames is more spammable but not much of one how there class plays and has to burst people don’t have really one not often I use whip multi times.

    Not precisely true.

    Whenever I have my DoTs stacked and I'm focusing on one target I definitely spam whip, especially when they're low health, sure, I wait until the right moment to apply this pressure, but spamming it most definitely happens and is most definitely better than engulfing spam.

    Engulfing spam is for if someone is trying to dodge roll away and you need AoE pressure.
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
    The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
  • Atherakhia
    Atherakhia
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    Jodynn wrote: »
    lucky_Sage wrote: »
    If a Magdk in pvp is using molten whip it is not a spammable. Engulfing flames is more spammable but not much of one how there class plays and has to burst people don’t have really one not often I use whip multi times.

    Not precisely true.

    Whenever I have my DoTs stacked and I'm focusing on one target I definitely spam whip, especially when they're low health, sure, I wait until the right moment to apply this pressure, but spamming it most definitely happens and is most definitely better than engulfing spam.

    Engulfing spam is for if someone is trying to dodge roll away and you need AoE pressure.

    Pretty much. You basically treat it like 'free' damage and don't necessarily go out of your way to stack it. While you certainly have a rotation that will prioritize maxing it out, once you use it you tend to spam it repeatedly until the target is dead or you're ready to restart your rotation.
  • Husan
    Husan
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    hehe jabs go brr
    wiymsoalbcmv.jpg
  • OlumoGarbag
    OlumoGarbag
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    Husan wrote: »
    hehe jabs go brr
    wiymsoalbcmv.jpg

    jexgnbsb2r2k.png
    You cant just use only 1 skill, you need to weave skills and buffs!
    class representative for the working class, non-cp, bwb and Trolling
  • ESO_Nightingale
    ESO_Nightingale
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    As for Birds, as others have said, take away the Off-Balance condition for the Bleed and tone down the number of stacks. Speed up the animation. Distance Birds could also stand to be improved (and in my dreams it would do Frost Damage).

    Ffs yes. This spammable would be fine if we actually had real control over the stacks. Please for the love of god lol. I hate that it's not melee and can't proc stuff. I hate the speed of it. I'd be willing to look past all that if I could just control the damn bleeds.

    I know right? It's so unbelievably slow. Has an awful proc condition for off balance, cutting dive is convoluted for no reason, while scr doubles down on the range bs while also just being magic damage that doesn't do anything.
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
  • itscompton
    itscompton
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    My MagNB's spammable is actually Swallow Soul, which is awesome. Concealed weapon is used on my back bar for stuns, the fact is does really good damage too is just a bonus.
  • Bucky_13
    Bucky_13
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    Husan wrote: »
    hehe jabs go brr
    wiymsoalbcmv.jpg

    jexgnbsb2r2k.png
    You cant just use only 1 skill, you need to weave skills and buffs!

    I believe the skill rotation is jab-la-jab-la, then you buff yourself by taking a deep breath before continuing the rotation.

    I like my magplar when I'm tired as it's by far the most braindead class to play when I solo
  • nsmurfer
    nsmurfer
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    Concealed Weapon is decent enough stat-wise, it is literally a Surprise Attack copy gameplay wise but the stun which works great for the stamblade melee playstyle actually ruins the flow of the magblade playstyle.

    Whip is a two-in-one burst skill+spammable and is used by 99% of magDKs. The issue with MagDK is to have decent pressure, you have to play with low-sustain which ends up as their Achilles Heel.

    Every class ranged spammable, including Swallow Soul has a 900 ms travel time, which makes them very unreliable against stamina players who have a lot of time to dodge the incoming pressure makes all class ranged spammables absolutely bad.
  • techyeshic
    techyeshic
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    I dont really see my mdk as using a spammable. I guess if you use the whip that kitsch rooted targets you would but I prefer to apply dots and control then go for a burst combo. Breath has been closer, but claw lately with the tests.
  • Jodynn
    Jodynn
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    Swallow soul is weak compared to elemental weapon

    Concealed Weapon is more utility than weapon, it applies nothing extra while elemental weapon does.

    I would love to see concealed weapon be laced with elemental poison so it applies a random status effect or even something unique to make it more powerful than just magic damage and off balance in pvp.
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
    The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
  • karekiz
    karekiz
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    Because they are meant for supports to run.
  • Sanguinor2
    Sanguinor2
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    The forums would implode if every class spammable was as strong as jabs.
    Politeness is respecting others.
    Courage is doing what is fair.
    Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
    Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
    Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
    Honor is keeping ones word.
  • Fawn4287
    Fawn4287
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    Jodynn wrote: »
    Wrecking Blow is better than Surprise Attack for StamBlade in PvE and PvP dizzying swing is better in general.

    Not really, heavy attack in to surprise attack from stealth is a much better combo for stamblade than dizzy spam, you can weave surprise attack much more easily and.
  • katorga
    katorga
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    Surprise Attack is the only really good spammable. It weaves beautifully, has a fast animation, and has since release. Now it has a stun, off balance and armor shred.

    Too many of them have garbage animations that are hard to weave with.

    All of the ranged ones are only good for pve. Too easy to avoid in pvp.
  • Olupajmibanan
    Olupajmibanan
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    1) Most magNBs prefer Swallow Soul over Ele Weapon or Force Pulse. Similar damage, self-heal on top of that and ultigen used to its maximum potential on top of top of that.

    Surprise Attack is used by most if not all StamNBs.

    2) A lot of magsorc recently started using Crystal Fragments as spammable over Ele weapon or Force Pulse. Try it yourself, it's really something.

    The new Stamsorc spammable is not really good, the group utility it brings is too low. This one is better off using Rapid Strikes.

    3) No magDK will pick Ele Weapon or Force Pulse over Whip.

    Poor stamDK has to stick with clunky Poop Fist which is terrible but brings a lot of group utility so it's usualy prefered over Weapon spammables.

    4) Templars are even out of question, Sweeps/Jabs all the way :lol:

    5) stamWardens recently started with Birds to use the Bleed to it's maximum potential. Results seem to be more than satisfying.

    Magwardens don't even use spammable, it's full dot-cycle rotation. But okay, if they unslot some of the dots sometimes, they replace these with Ele Weapon or Bird.

    6) Magnecro is the same like magNB, Ricochet Skull is preferred over Ele Weapon or Force Pulse. It does more damage than both, when Engulfing Flames come into question, and the AoE portion just further strenghtens the preference of Skull.

    Stamnecro's skull is terrible so he is stuck with weapon spammables.

    So, out of 12 specs and classes I counted only 1-3 which really prefer generic spammable over its class spammable. That doesn't seem like class spammables are terrible.
    Edited by Olupajmibanan on October 19, 2020 6:17AM
  • ESO_Nightingale
    ESO_Nightingale
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    1) Most magNBs prefer Swallow Soul over Ele Weapon or Force Pulse. Similar damage, self-heal on top of that and ultigen used to its maximum potential on top of top of that.

    Surprise Attack is used by most if not all StamNBs.

    2) A lot of magsorc recently started using Crystal Fragments as spammable over Ele weapon or Force Pulse. Try it yourself, it's really something.

    The new Stamsorc spammable is not really good, the group utility it brings is too low. This one is better off using Rapid Strikes.

    3) No magDK will pick Ele Weapon or Force Pulse over Whip.

    Poor stamDK has to stick with clunky Poop Fist which is terrible but brings a lot of group utility so it's usualy prefered over Weapon spammables.

    4) Templars are even out of question, Sweeps/Jabs all the way :lol:

    5) stamWardens recently started with Birds to use the Bleed to it's maximum potential. Results seem to be more than satisfying.

    Magwardens don't even use spammable, it's full dot-cycle rotation. But okay, if they unslot some of the dots sometimes, they replace these with Ele Weapon or Bird.

    6) Magnecro is the same like magNB, Ricochet Skull is preferred over Ele Weapon or Force Pulse. It does more damage than both, when Engulfing Flames come into question, and the AoE portion just further strenghtens the preference of Skull.

    Stamnecro's skull is terrible so he is stuck with weapon spammables.

    So, out of 12 specs and classes I counted only 1-3 which really prefer generic spammable over its class spammable. That doesn't seem like class spammables are terrible.

    Still doesn't mean that they dont need to be improved. Warden's doesn't even work with the class's design.
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
  • Olupajmibanan
    Olupajmibanan
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    1) Most magNBs prefer Swallow Soul over Ele Weapon or Force Pulse. Similar damage, self-heal on top of that and ultigen used to its maximum potential on top of top of that.

    Surprise Attack is used by most if not all StamNBs.

    2) A lot of magsorc recently started using Crystal Fragments as spammable over Ele weapon or Force Pulse. Try it yourself, it's really something.

    The new Stamsorc spammable is not really good, the group utility it brings is too low. This one is better off using Rapid Strikes.

    3) No magDK will pick Ele Weapon or Force Pulse over Whip.

    Poor stamDK has to stick with clunky Poop Fist which is terrible but brings a lot of group utility so it's usualy prefered over Weapon spammables.

    4) Templars are even out of question, Sweeps/Jabs all the way :lol:

    5) stamWardens recently started with Birds to use the Bleed to it's maximum potential. Results seem to be more than satisfying.

    Magwardens don't even use spammable, it's full dot-cycle rotation. But okay, if they unslot some of the dots sometimes, they replace these with Ele Weapon or Bird.

    6) Magnecro is the same like magNB, Ricochet Skull is preferred over Ele Weapon or Force Pulse. It does more damage than both, when Engulfing Flames come into question, and the AoE portion just further strenghtens the preference of Skull.

    Stamnecro's skull is terrible so he is stuck with weapon spammables.

    So, out of 12 specs and classes I counted only 1-3 which really prefer generic spammable over its class spammable. That doesn't seem like class spammables are terrible.

    Still doesn't mean that they dont need to be improved. Warden's doesn't even work with the class's design.

    I agree, but so are many other things in this game. I've only shown that there is no strong preference of generic spammables over class ones, meaning that general global changes to class spammables (I assume you refer to that type of change) should be on low priority.

    But individual class spammables which are completely overshadowed by generic spammables should be looked at. This includes Venom Skull, Screaming Cliff Racer and Crystal Weapon. And of course, Poop fist, this one needs to be reworked (again) and really soon. Popularity of stamDK dropped significantly since introduction of new Stone Giant.
    Edited by Olupajmibanan on October 19, 2020 7:57AM
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