Please ZOS, revert, rewrite, you are completely messing up the frost staff and frost tanking.

Stinkyremy

You are adding all this nerfs to it's damage so that frost staff is not dps viable so no dd like frost wardens will ever use it, then you are botching up the skills so no tank will ever use it. Then on top of that you are forcing at least one player to use it with the brittle buff/debuff so someone has to use it in meta trials and PvP.

It could be so easy to get it right, on one side of the morphs it is all about tanking, other side of the morphs all about dps. Plus the damage of the weapon comes from the build, a tank isn't going to be destroying mobs even if he had a flame staff, so there is no need to nerf the overall frost damage at all, it should be equal, well equally different to the other 2 elemental staves.
I am seeing the community here and all over the internet coming up with the same ideas, and we are the ones who play the game, we know what we want.

Firstly, take taunt off of destructive clench, why would we ever want to taunt and CC at a distance! It has weaker range that the undaunted taunt, is slower start up and you are getting rid of a range stun that is great and fun to use.
People have already suggested, make elemental susceptibility the taunt, it's a faster start up, has even better range that the undaunted range taunt, is never really used over elemental drain so no one will really miss the skill and above all has breach/fracture, the exact thing that will make a frost taunt viable and an actual equal competing tool vs sword and board.
Add reduce block cost to elemental susceptibility too and you are having 1 skill do what a sword and board does in 2 skills!. Even more of a reason to use a frost staff over a sword and board.

Here is the perfect changes to make a universal frost staff tanking weapon.:

Element susceptibility as a universal taunt 15 secs, major breach/fracture 13 secs.
(direct one handed pierce armour substitute)

Unstable wall of elements with a frost staff slows movement as it did before, doesn't immobilize chilled enemies nor explodes for damage but explodes for the new group shield you have implemented.
(that is a good support idea)

Element ring immobilizes for 3-7 secs, a perfect substitute for any CC, DKs talons for eg. OR you could do the same with pulsar instead.

Destructive clench with a frost staff Is a range immobilization as it was before.

Crushing shock with a frost staff pulls the enemy closer as a chain instead of interrupting.
(yes people may think this is too big of a leap/change for this skill but as it is very few if any classes have a substitute for DK chains, and silver leash while universal, is a stamina chain)

Take the blocking with magika cost off of the first passive of tri-focus passive so we can block with stamina while using a frost staff while still having the heavy attack damage shield, if we only spend one skill point.
(not everyone wants to manage 2 resources while blocking)

Obviously each skill is only with frost staff slotted.
Do this and you have a universal tanking weapon that any class can use and be a fully optimal tank, while still having the frost staff as a viable dps tool with the opposite morphs as they are.

Maybe a wishful thinking but turn elemental rage into a ult that does zero damage at all but immobilizes for 3 secs (minus boss immunity) and taunts for 10-15 secs (yeah I know AoE taunt, wishful thinking) and the frost staff would be perfect.

I am a day one tank main and was frost tanking before you even implemented the taunt! the frost staff changes of adding blocking with magika is what ruined it for me in the first place, but these changes you have added to PTS are even worse.
The worse thing is that you are forcing this brittle debuff so for meta runs someone will have to use it, most likely someone who doesn't want to use it and it wont be the tank in trials!

I'm sure people would agree with at least some of my suggestions.
I don't know your processes of feedback, if you would take mine/our suggestions and revert changes you have made but you can guarantee if you don't change what is happening to the frost staff now not also will you get little to no tanks using the frost staff to tank with you will get little to no dps using them either.
Some of us, myself included, love being a dps and a tank with a frost staff, the weapon doesn't have to be one or the other, it can be both.

richo262

I agree with most of this, however

Crushing won't need to pull.

Mage tanks can still use tristat food, have a bit of stam and use leash.

Tanks can also use offensive ultis like Col on necro tank, mostly for the damage bonus to group, but instead of making Ele rage (which if frost staff ever becomes useful, dps won't like that ulti) a 0 damage, keep it doing damage just like the rest, and bring frost wall up to how it was. Instead Frost Ele can drop a debuff for longer major/minor brittle. It would be another thing in rotation, Col, Horn, Frost Ele.

Atherakhia

Destruction Staff needs to be overhauled to begin with. There is no reason to do this piecemeal and try to force frost into a DPS role. Remove the taunt on heavy attack, make the wall do the same damage as any other wall, do brittle as is. Don't bother with anything else until you have time to focus on more than just Frost and forcing tanking onto it.

No one uses Touch unless they're using the monster weapon. This is because the skill is garbage without it. The entire skill needs to be redesigned so it's not garbage. You can then kloodge tanking onto it once the skill isn't garbage if you need to.

No one uses Impulse unless they're using the monster weapon. this is because the skill is garbage without it. the entire skill needs to be redesigned so it's not garbage. You can then kloodge an execute onto it once the skill isn't garbage if you need to.

No one uses Elemental susceptibility because the morph is garbage. Adding a taunt to it is only being suggested because someone feels like Staff tanks need a taunt. They don't. Inner-Fire is good enough. If it's a problem of access, swap inner-fire with altar and ensure a player starts at level 1 (I don't know if they do already or not).

Casters need a defensive toolkit outside of S+B, that's a given. This can be done with Frost Staff. But these changes give the impression you're desperate and just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. The entire Destruction Staff needs an overhaul. Put in the effort required, pull these changes, and give players something worth using.

Thanks.

Taleof2Cities

Here is the official thread for frost staff changes, @Stinkyremy:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/546401/pts-update-28-feedback-thread-for-frost-staff-adjustments#latest

ESO_Nightingale

Stinkyremy wrote: »

You are adding all this nerfs to it's damage so that frost staff is not dps viable so no dd like frost wardens will ever use it, then you are botching up the skills so no tank will ever use it. Then on top of that you are forcing at least one player to use it with the brittle buff/debuff so someone has to use it in meta trials and PvP.

It could be so easy to get it right, on one side of the morphs it is all about tanking, other side of the morphs all about dps. Plus the damage of the weapon comes from the build, a tank isn't going to be destroying mobs even if he had a flame staff, so there is no need to nerf the overall frost damage at all, it should be equal, well equally different to the other 2 elemental staves.
I am seeing the community here and all over the internet coming up with the same ideas, and we are the ones who play the game, we know what we want.

Firstly, take taunt off of destructive clench, why would we ever want to taunt and CC at a distance! It has weaker range that the undaunted taunt, is slower start up and you are getting rid of a range stun that is great and fun to use.
People have already suggested, make elemental susceptibility the taunt, it's a faster start up, has even better range that the undaunted range taunt, is never really used over elemental drain so no one will really miss the skill and above all has breach/fracture, the exact thing that will make a frost taunt viable and an actual equal competing tool vs sword and board.
Add reduce block cost to elemental susceptibility too and you are having 1 skill do what a sword and board does in 2 skills!. Even more of a reason to use a frost staff over a sword and board.

Here is the perfect changes to make a universal frost staff tanking weapon.:

Element susceptibility as a universal taunt 15 secs, major breach/fracture 13 secs.
(direct one handed pierce armour substitute)

Unstable wall of elements with a frost staff slows movement as it did before, doesn't immobilize chilled enemies nor explodes for damage but explodes for the new group shield you have implemented.
(that is a good support idea)

Element ring immobilizes for 3-7 secs, a perfect substitute for any CC, DKs talons for eg. OR you could do the same with pulsar instead.

Destructive clench with a frost staff Is a range immobilization as it was before.

Crushing shock with a frost staff pulls the enemy closer as a chain instead of interrupting.
(yes people may think this is too big of a leap/change for this skill but as it is very few if any classes have a substitute for DK chains, and silver leash while universal, is a stamina chain)

Take the blocking with magika cost off of the first passive of tri-focus passive so we can block with stamina while using a frost staff while still having the heavy attack damage shield, if we only spend one skill point.
(not everyone wants to manage 2 resources while blocking)

Obviously each skill is only with frost staff slotted.
Do this and you have a universal tanking weapon that any class can use and be a fully optimal tank, while still having the frost staff as a viable dps tool with the opposite morphs as they are.

Maybe a wishful thinking but turn elemental rage into a ult that does zero damage at all but immobilizes for 3 secs (minus boss immunity) and taunts for 10-15 secs (yeah I know AoE taunt, wishful thinking) and the frost staff would be perfect.

I am a day one tank main and was frost tanking before you even implemented the taunt! the frost staff changes of adding blocking with magika is what ruined it for me in the first place, but these changes you have added to PTS are even worse.
The worse thing is that you are forcing this brittle debuff so for meta runs someone will have to use it, most likely someone who doesn't want to use it and it wont be the tank in trials!

I'm sure people would agree with at least some of my suggestions.
I don't know your processes of feedback, if you would take mine/our suggestions and revert changes you have made but you can guarantee if you don't change what is happening to the frost staff now not also will you get little to no tanks using the frost staff to tank with you will get little to no dps using them either.
Some of us, myself included, love being a dps and a tank with a frost staff, the weapon doesn't have to be one or the other, it can be both.

unstable frost wall of elements should be preserved for dps, if you want to make supportive related adjustments, that should be for frost blockade. as unstable is built purely for dps, as it has less range and duration, but instead, has the explosion.

richo262

Atherakhia wrote: »

Destruction Staff needs to be overhauled to begin with. There is no reason to do this piecemeal and try to force frost into a DPS role. Remove the taunt on heavy attack, make the wall do the same damage as any other wall, do brittle as is. Don't bother with anything else until you have time to focus on more than just Frost and forcing tanking onto it.

No one uses Touch unless they're using the monster weapon. This is because the skill is garbage without it. The entire skill needs to be redesigned so it's not garbage. You can then kloodge tanking onto it once the skill isn't garbage if you need to.

No one uses Impulse unless they're using the monster weapon. this is because the skill is garbage without it. the entire skill needs to be redesigned so it's not garbage. You can then kloodge an execute onto it once the skill isn't garbage if you need to.

No one uses Elemental susceptibility because the morph is garbage. Adding a taunt to it is only being suggested because someone feels like Staff tanks need a taunt. They don't. Inner-Fire is good enough. If it's a problem of access, swap inner-fire with altar and ensure a player starts at level 1 (I don't know if they do already or not).

Casters need a defensive toolkit outside of S+B, that's a given. This can be done with Frost Staff. But these changes give the impression you're desperate and just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. The entire Destruction Staff needs an overhaul. Put in the effort required, pull these changes, and give players something worth using.

Thanks.

I'm uncertain if 'kloodge' is a typo, or my new favorite word. Thank you.

Atherakhia

richo262 wrote: »

Atherakhia wrote: »

Destruction Staff needs to be overhauled to begin with. There is no reason to do this piecemeal and try to force frost into a DPS role. Remove the taunt on heavy attack, make the wall do the same damage as any other wall, do brittle as is. Don't bother with anything else until you have time to focus on more than just Frost and forcing tanking onto it.

No one uses Touch unless they're using the monster weapon. This is because the skill is garbage without it. The entire skill needs to be redesigned so it's not garbage. You can then kloodge tanking onto it once the skill isn't garbage if you need to.

No one uses Impulse unless they're using the monster weapon. this is because the skill is garbage without it. the entire skill needs to be redesigned so it's not garbage. You can then kloodge an execute onto it once the skill isn't garbage if you need to.

No one uses Elemental susceptibility because the morph is garbage. Adding a taunt to it is only being suggested because someone feels like Staff tanks need a taunt. They don't. Inner-Fire is good enough. If it's a problem of access, swap inner-fire with altar and ensure a player starts at level 1 (I don't know if they do already or not).

Casters need a defensive toolkit outside of S+B, that's a given. This can be done with Frost Staff. But these changes give the impression you're desperate and just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. The entire Destruction Staff needs an overhaul. Put in the effort required, pull these changes, and give players something worth using.

Thanks.

I'm uncertain if 'kloodge' is a typo, or my new favorite word. Thank you.

My apologies. I apparently misspelled it. It's kludge. Phonetically correct though. So half credit?

Austinseph1

Mag tanking needs to be rethought from the ground up, make it its own skill like like s&b because it's just a hashed up frankenstein right now. Make all destro staves damage, ice for cc, flame for single target, lightning for the aoe, and the mag weapon possibly a ward tank with it's own buffs/debuffs.

llBlack_Heartll

Austinseph1 wrote: »

Mag tanking needs to be rethought from the ground up, make it its own skill like like s&b because it's just a hashed up frankenstein right now. Make all destro staves damage, ice for cc, flame for single target, lightning for the aoe, and the mag weapon possibly a ward tank with it's own buffs/debuffs.

All they need to do is to change 1 skill in the S&B line which is Power Bash - Make it an AoE skill to proc Crusher enchantment and while Power Bash is Slotted, Blocking cost Magicka. Boom problem solved.

Atherakhia

Austinseph1 wrote: »

Mag tanking needs to be rethought from the ground up, make it its own skill like like s&b because it's just a hashed up frankenstein right now. Make all destro staves damage, ice for cc, flame for single target, lightning for the aoe, and the mag weapon possibly a ward tank with it's own buffs/debuffs.

I don't think we need a new weapon. The destruction staff in general is poorly designed. The fact that mag tanking was an afterthough doesn't help. They should overhaul the entire destruction staff tree from the ground up and make tanking with a frost staff an actual conscious decision when doing so. Currently half the skills are completely useless unless you have the corresponding monster set to go with it. Half the morphs for the other skills don't get any real use. The passives could really use a looking at. And that's just PvE we're talking about, the fact no one uses frost staff and everyone uses S+B with no skills and only passives should also be taken a look at.

Why force tanking changes at this point for a weapon that is clearly so poorly designed and needs to be overhauled to begin with? Just remove the taunt cause it gets in the way. Swap Inner-Fire and Altar as stopgap measure. And do destruction staff changes right the first time. Not piecemeal spread out over countless patches and still end up with a failed experiment like the recent vamp changes.

Danksta

Tanking weapons shouldn't share a skill line with dps weapons. Idk who thought that was a good idea but it's not.

Atherakhia

Danksta wrote: »

Tanking weapons shouldn't share a skill line with dps weapons. Idk who thought that was a good idea but it's not.

Staff is different. They could make a reasonably fun tanking weapon with Frost Staff. I don't fault them for trying. I fault them for failing and then just randomly throwing ideas out to see what sticks.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Just do the alteration and illusion staff and give back the frost DESTRUCTION staff back to its former role

Narvuntien

As a Templar Hybrid Tank. I was using the strong slow from Frost Wall as my major crowd control skill by removing it I don't really have any other options.

Time Stop (which I was using until it got hit with a Nerf Hammer) is way too expensive and I need Stamina to both Block and Chain so Caltrops high-cost stamina ability is not what I want to be using.

So please don't remove my Ice staff slow (or buff templar??)

buttaface

Wonder if all the "theorycrafters" who whined about frost staff for the last year+ over and over and over here and elsewhere are proud of ruining something that was working well and very soon will NOT be? Any of those care to weigh in? Thought not.

When will people learn that MMO devs NEVER EVER do what is asked in response to endless whinging, and almost always do things that are worse than what worked prior?

ESO_Nightingale

buttaface wrote: »

Wonder if all the "theorycrafters" who whined about frost staff for the last year+ over and over and over here and elsewhere are proud of ruining something that was working well and very soon will NOT be? Any of those care to weigh in? Thought not.

When will people learn that MMO devs NEVER EVER do what is asked in response to endless whinging, and almost always do things that are worse than what worked prior?

it's not our fault we want the game to be better :P

idk

Stinkyremy wrote: »

Crushing shock with a frost staff pulls the enemy closer as a chain instead of interrupting.
(yes people may think this is too big of a leap/change for this skill but as it is very few if any classes have a substitute for DK chains, and silver leash while universal, is a stamina chain)

Granted, I do not tank with a frost staff as the S&B is far superior. I also have never DPSed with a frost staff since the damage has always been sub-par compared to the other two staves.

However, this point really caught my attention. Silver Leash is the universal choice available to all classes, as OP even notes. If one is magicka tanking it is ideal to use. If OP is suggesting homogenizing the game so there is a magicka version of this skill available to everyone then I am very much against that as homogenization is very bad for MMORPGS.

xPoisin

From my point of view, best choice would be to let the frost staff a destruction staff in line with lightning and fire staff.

For tanking, there should be a new weapon line created that would be generally separate and that would mirror the s&b weapon line.

Using the frost staff for tanking was not a choice for some classes but a must, as they do not have a class abilities for roots/immobilize as for example templars...

Changes that were made just ruined the frost staff as a tanking option and they did not helped to frost based DPS....

Please, bring back the roots/immobilize option back, boost some additional DPS for damage, add the minor brittle as the unique option for frost staff...
According to frost staff taunt, just let an option for some skills to add a feature of taunting with frost heavy attack just for slotting them...