At least kiss me before you..

rpa

HankTwo wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

I hope this awful change is pvp only. if it affects PVE. most healers are gonna start playing dps instead.

1) Its PvP only
2) How would this affect PvE? You are grouped by default in dungeons, trials trials and 4 man arenas

Worldbosses, dolmens/geysirs/dragons/harrowstorms, delves and public dungeons. And whatwasits and theothertings in Craglorn. People do these grouped and ungrouped, farm or pass by and jump in.

BRogueNZ

Astrid wrote: »

Why you’d want to run around mindlessly healing faction members anyways is beyond me.

Imagine healing people in need of it. The cheek of it.

Why would I not enjoy healing my faction.? And rapid regen? easy AP? You get more in a group, you know that.

Chilly-McFreeze

gronoxvx wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

uuuhhh nice @Artorias24 i didnt know that!

Cynism over

sure i could open a group, but since i am not big into PVP and leading 11 other arround a huge map with objectives and tactis i dont know about would be a bad experience for me and the others... so i kinda depend on people that know what they do.
i mean i would not lead a VSS raid if i didnt knew what to to exactly, since its just not going to be a nice experience

Or join a guild? Seriously theres so many options. I was much the same on xbox na. Found a guild. Joined. Now i can run in a group any time i like. Try it.

Not everybody wants to put it that kind of dedication. Log in, jump into cyro, play how you like - or not, depending how this plays out. It also raises the entry "barrier" for newer players. Not just for healers, but also the dude that wonders why he doesn't get healed by the dozend players around him. In a time where ZOS does anything to lower that entry bar (free impen, op procs). It's a band aid, nothing more.

Jaraal

badmojo wrote: »

'If it helps cut down on the lag.....'

And when it doesnt help, but they still implement the change permenently?

Same BS happened to purge and I am still bitter about it.

It's because the stratregy is to gut the player experience to fit the aging infrastructure, rather than improve the infrastructure to allow for more diverse play. Remember how smooth the game ran years ago when Cyrodiil was full of people? Seems like such a long time ago.

Drive away enough players and limit the things the few who remain can do and your servers will be able to handle the load.

HankTwo

rpa wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

I hope this awful change is pvp only. if it affects PVE. most healers are gonna start playing dps instead.

1) Its PvP only
2) How would this affect PvE? You are grouped by default in dungeons, trials trials and 4 man arenas

Worldbosses, dolmens/geysirs/dragons/harrowstorms, delves and public dungeons. And whatwasits and theothertings in Craglorn. People do these grouped and ungrouped, farm or pass by and jump in.

Ok but why would healer switch to DPS in that case. In open world you dont have dedicated roles anyway.

zaria

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Or players can learn to run self heals and buffs. Some of us do this already. Off heals were nice, but I can get by without. Group up zerglings.

While guild groups run trial healers

kargen27

HankTwo wrote: »

I really like this test! For me its by far the least disruptive to gameplay yet and performance yesterday seemed better than the weeks before (even though the week 4 test was very restrictive for example).

Apart from having less lag, it even seems like a flat out improvement to Cyrodiil gameplay to me, and imo should stay regardless of ZOS final performance solution. For example, it makes skills like rapid regen in solo play and healers for the group in small scale much more reliable than before, since the healing skills wont go to random people that arent even necessarily involved in the fight.

Overall its an improvement for:

- solo players in solo builds
- small scale, especially healers
- organized large scale

While it is a downgrade for:

- ungrouped players in healer/support builds that zerg surf (why play support if not in a group, though?)
- random faction stacks (one of the causes of lag)

And to the players complaining about either not wanting to group up with randoms or not getting group invited, there are two easy fixes! 1) You are interested in group play -> join a PvP guild and enjoy a guaranteed group spot (depending on the guild), and much better group play, or 2) You like solo play -> create a well rounded solo build and enjoy skills like cauterize, rapid regen, honor the dead, and so on to be a reliable heal on yourself.

So overall, this current test imo is a godsend, since it not only improves gameplay and seemingly lag, it also doesnt destroy the functionality of any builds like the last couple of tests (my magden and magplar builds for example were completely dysfunctional with cooldowns + cost increase).

A PvP guild I was in would have more people than can be in the group. Now that groups can only be 12 the problem is even worse. It was really common to have players from the guild tag along with the group even though they were not in the group. Now we can't do that.
Your 2nd point is basically just saying don't come to Cyrodiil with a healer. That is not an answer. Well it isn't a good one anyway.
You are also missing several possible scenarios where not being able to heal out of your group could be problematic for your factions war efforts. As example I get separated from my group. Maybe I died and needed to go back to the nearest keep. That keep comes under attack and there are only a few of us there to defend. Unfortunately for us we are not in the same group. So no heals. Doesn't sound like much fun as there will be no significant fight at all.

Allowing to heal outside a group means players near a keep can work together to defend it simply because they are in the same faction. This being a war between factions healers need to be able to heal all members of their faction. Making healing work for groups only will help fix problems in Cyrodiil but it will be because less players go there.

" it also doesnt destroy the functionality of any builds like the last couple of tests"

It destroys dedicated healers. If a healer can't heal that equates to no functionality. Sure they can make pretty lights but pretty lights don't help win the war.

If this really is a fix then I would guess buffs affecting other players would need to also be adjusted to group only. To that end just make Cyrodiil a group only zone. Either go in as a group of 12 or when you go in you are placed in a group of 12. No more solo play so no more pesky cross anything.

kargen27

HankTwo wrote: »

rpa wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

I hope this awful change is pvp only. if it affects PVE. most healers are gonna start playing dps instead.

1) Its PvP only
2) How would this affect PvE? You are grouped by default in dungeons, trials trials and 4 man arenas

Worldbosses, dolmens/geysirs/dragons/harrowstorms, delves and public dungeons. And whatwasits and theothertings in Craglorn. People do these grouped and ungrouped, farm or pass by and jump in.

Ok but why would healer switch to DPS in that case. In open world you dont have dedicated roles anyway.

Sure you do. I often test tank builds by trying to hold agro on world bosses. My healer is my main character. When I am in open world I backbar DPS skills. Sometimes though when I am at a dragon or other large mean nasty thing I concentrate on healing. Comes in real handy when only a couple of players are trying to bring down a pesky boss that can hit hard. Also just good manners to toss out a heal as you run by a player struggling in a fight before you head on your way. Kind of like a healer does in Cyrodiil when he sees a member of his faction about to die.

badmojo

Astrid wrote: »

Why you’d want to run around mindlessly healing faction members anyways is beyond me. Group up and dedicate your healing to specific people, not just radiating regen-ing your way to easy AP in the middle of a massive zerg doing sweet bot all.

[snip] See how assuming things about other based on their playstyle or opinion on game mechanics is going to give you an incorrect picture of them and their gameplay?

Solo healers do sweet bot all the same way you group players get carried to your AP gains by your groups. It might be true for some, but generalizing everyone is ignorant.

[edited for baiting]

HankTwo

kargen27 wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

I really like this test! For me its by far the least disruptive to gameplay yet and performance yesterday seemed better than the weeks before (even though the week 4 test was very restrictive for example).

Apart from having less lag, it even seems like a flat out improvement to Cyrodiil gameplay to me, and imo should stay regardless of ZOS final performance solution. For example, it makes skills like rapid regen in solo play and healers for the group in small scale much more reliable than before, since the healing skills wont go to random people that arent even necessarily involved in the fight.

Overall its an improvement for:

- solo players in solo builds
- small scale, especially healers
- organized large scale

While it is a downgrade for:

- ungrouped players in healer/support builds that zerg surf (why play support if not in a group, though?)
- random faction stacks (one of the causes of lag)

And to the players complaining about either not wanting to group up with randoms or not getting group invited, there are two easy fixes! 1) You are interested in group play -> join a PvP guild and enjoy a guaranteed group spot (depending on the guild), and much better group play, or 2) You like solo play -> create a well rounded solo build and enjoy skills like cauterize, rapid regen, honor the dead, and so on to be a reliable heal on yourself.

So overall, this current test imo is a godsend, since it not only improves gameplay and seemingly lag, it also doesnt destroy the functionality of any builds like the last couple of tests (my magden and magplar builds for example were completely dysfunctional with cooldowns + cost increase).

A PvP guild I was in would have more people than can be in the group. Now that groups can only be 12 the problem is even worse. It was really common to have players from the guild tag along with the group even though they were not in the group. Now we can't do that.

Why didn't your guild just make two groups and filled them up with equal amount of players? Honestly making a full group and then letting some single players follow behind seems like a pretty dickish move...

kargen27 wrote: »

Your 2nd point is basically just saying don't come to Cyrodiil with a healer. That is not an answer. Well it isn't a good one anyway.

The main healer in my guild is very happy with this change. On my builds with a lot of off healing (like my magden) I'm also happy about it.

kargen27 wrote: »

You are also missing several possible scenarios where not being able to heal out of your group could be problematic for your factions war efforts. As example I get separated from my group. Maybe I died and needed to go back to the nearest keep. That keep comes under attack and there are only a few of us there to defend. Unfortunately for us we are not in the same group. So no heals. Doesn't sound like much fun as there will be no significant fight at all.

Allowing to heal outside a group means players near a keep can work together to defend it simply because they are in the same faction. This being a war between factions healers need to be able to heal all members of their faction. Making healing work for groups only will help fix problems in Cyrodiil but it will be because less players go there.

This is not necessarily a bad thing. It just makes highly disorganized keep defenses far less effective and it lets some keep fights end earlier. There would be more overall emphasis on good group play. Maybe you dislike that, but I like it.

kargen27 wrote: »

" it also doesnt destroy the functionality of any builds like the last couple of tests"

It destroys dedicated healers. If a healer can't heal that equates to no functionality. Sure they can make pretty lights but pretty lights don't help win the war.

Mate I don't know if you have played the earlier tests, but during - at the very least - test 1 and 4 your typical templar heal build was completely dysfunctional! You couldn't even self heal properly which is the very basic of a heal build. The earlier tests were extremely biased when it came to class balance, with some classes pretty much destroyed while NB for example wasnt really affected at all. During this current test none of the classes/builds are hit like that and they are all still functioning as well as they did before in a group setting.

kargen27 wrote: »

If this really is a fix then I would guess buffs affecting other players would need to also be adjusted to group only. To that end just make Cyrodiil a group only zone. Either go in as a group of 12 or when you go in you are placed in a group of 12. No more solo play so no more pesky cross anything.

I can't remember the last time I was in a group of 12 and I'm doing fine in Cyrodiil. Small and mid scale is a thing and works well this test. Also, as I already explained, true solo play got improved as well because a lot of healing skills got much more reliable when self healing. Unless you count zerg surfing healer as solo play that is.

Tsar_Gekkou

No heal. Only kill.

Knockmaker

While removing cross healing might seem reasonable on the paper, it seems that it really won't translate into actual gameplay similarly.

Like some people mentioned, not everyone has to, or, can be in a group at all times. There are times, when groups are full, there are times you don't agree with the tactics of a particular group and want to run solo for a while, or, you may be simply not feeling comfortable leading a group yourself when all the groups out there are full. That is punishing players needlessly.

I personally don't play any healer, nor do I feel uncomfortable leading groups. On the contrary, I (used to) lead groups, even randoms quite often and regularly. But leading can be tiresome at times. And in times like that, I sometimes run solo, too.

I haven't played in months due to various reasons, and I don't play healer anyway. But, I just wanted to say that this doesn't look fair or well thought of. The problem seems more a code/resources-related issue, rather than mechanics/play style-related.

Astrid

badmojo wrote: »

Astrid wrote: »

Why you’d want to run around mindlessly healing faction members anyways is beyond me. Group up and dedicate your healing to specific people, not just radiating regen-ing your way to easy AP in the middle of a massive zerg doing sweet bot all.

[snip] See how assuming things about other based on their playstyle or opinion on game mechanics is going to give you an incorrect picture of them and their gameplay?

Solo healers do sweet bot all the same way you group players get carried to your AP gains by your groups. It might be true for some, but generalizing everyone is ignorant.

[edited for baiting]

See how assuming things about other based on their play style or opinion on game mechanics is gonna give your an incorrect picture of them and their gameplay?

You’re assuming I group heal PvP. Or even group at all. Been there, bored me to tears. Make a dd, look after yourself. I truly don’t see the issue with regulations on how many people you can babysit when someone’s even said to me earlier that I haven’t bothered to quote: you get more AP. You have less people yeeting around to heal, you have coordination within a group. Not really getting what the downside is except you can’t go in as a solo healer anymore and with how bad support roles are in general for cyrodiil I think it’s about time. Cross healing was absolutely dumb. Amount of times i’ve had duels interrupted by some random healer coming in is unbelievable. Stick to a group who actually want it.

idk

I realize that most of us do not look at or even see the big picture. We see how we play the game. As such we tend to not take in that big picture and think if a change does not harm us personally, or may even help us if we have problems killing players, that the change is fine for the game.

In those cases, it is easy to say that if it helps performance then we should do it. However, I bet the same people who think we should restrict healing to those in the group of the healer would yell and scream if Zos decided the AoE cooldown should be implemented because it helps performance.

That is the reality of this discussion that many are choosing to ignore. Ignoring it does not make your opinion more sound.

BRogueNZ

idk wrote: »

I realize that most of us do not look at or even see the big picture. We see how we play the game. As such we tend to not take in that big picture and think if a change does not harm us personally, or may even help us if we have problems killing players, that the change is fine for the game.

In those cases, it is easy to say that if it helps performance then we should do it. However, I bet the same people who think we should restrict healing to those in the group of the healer would yell and scream if Zos decided the AoE cooldown should be implemented because it helps performance.

That is the reality of this discussion that many are choosing to ignore. Ignoring it does not make your opinion more sound.

You're right, no one like their ganks, bombs or twitch content (and duels it seems) messed up by an aware healer.

I get some streamers sell a few copies of their game but lets not get stupid here and ignore the facts, were a faction, its not group wars online.

I'm sure they know this would be the daftest mmo out there if they made this a permanent feature, but we know they like to create features around the things they cannot fix, so who knows.

gronoxvx

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

gronoxvx wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

uuuhhh nice @Artorias24 i didnt know that!

Cynism over

sure i could open a group, but since i am not big into PVP and leading 11 other arround a huge map with objectives and tactis i dont know about would be a bad experience for me and the others... so i kinda depend on people that know what they do.
i mean i would not lead a VSS raid if i didnt knew what to to exactly, since its just not going to be a nice experience

Or join a guild? Seriously theres so many options. I was much the same on xbox na. Found a guild. Joined. Now i can run in a group any time i like. Try it.

Not everybody wants to put it that kind of dedication. Log in, jump into cyro, play how you like - or not, depending how this plays out.

Who says you need dedication to join a guild? Most pvp guilds are literally just log in, post lfg in guild chat (compared to zone). Bam there you have it. If you accidentally join a guild that has expectations you dont agree with, Then find another.

It sounds like you want to play in a way that may benefit you, but the opportunities to do so seem rare? Sometimes we need to make sacrifices to get what we want compared to getting it spoon fed to us.

barney2525

Hang on. Didn't really catch on initially.

Are you saying that, for example, should my Warden be involved in a dragon fight, and I drop some AoE heal - It would only affect me? No one else would get the benefit?

JTD

It's just weird that in an open world pvp area (cyro) battle of opportunity will be gone if they implement something like this. Sure an organised group should be able to stomp most adversaries. But making players that have no group or smaller groups by default less impactful because of not being able to heal/shield/help each other without being in the same group is just not helping either. Isn't that the charm of cyro? Riding around finding that hot spot and joining in on the fly and being able to contribute without all the organizational hassle of finding group, leaving group and finding anohther...?

It should not matter that it will help performance, it's an unacceptable solution. It's another band aid to a core problem.

colossalvoids

barney2525 wrote: »

Hang on. Didn't really catch on initially.

Are you saying that, for example, should my Warden be involved in a dragon fight, and I drop some AoE heal - It would only affect me? No one else would get the benefit?

Pvp only, no dragons in Cyro.

Chilly-McFreeze

gronoxvx wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

gronoxvx wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

uuuhhh nice @Artorias24 i didnt know that!

Cynism over

sure i could open a group, but since i am not big into PVP and leading 11 other arround a huge map with objectives and tactis i dont know about would be a bad experience for me and the others... so i kinda depend on people that know what they do.
i mean i would not lead a VSS raid if i didnt knew what to to exactly, since its just not going to be a nice experience

Or join a guild? Seriously theres so many options. I was much the same on xbox na. Found a guild. Joined. Now i can run in a group any time i like. Try it.

Not everybody wants to put it that kind of dedication. Log in, jump into cyro, play how you like - or not, depending how this plays out.

Who says you need dedication to join a guild? Most pvp guilds are literally just log in, post lfg in guild chat (compared to zone). Bam there you have it. If you accidentally join a guild that has expectations you dont agree with, Then find another.

It sounds like you want to play in a way that may benefit you, but the opportunities to do so seem rare? Sometimes we need to make sacrifices to get what we want compared to getting it spoon fed to us.

What do you mean by spoon fed? Sounds like you're just rambling.
And yes, I want to play in a way that benefits me. The way we all were able to play for the last 6 years. How dare I.

Paramedicus

I'm afraid that 12 man size groups will affect casual players badly. Caputring distant keep with full 24-man lfg-squad was a struggle sometimes, because casual groups may be really slow with sieging (some guys leeching, some using that one free fire trebuchet etc.) . Now this problem gonna be 2x worse. By the time group make keep UA whole enemy faction will know that there is an attack and port.

I hope players adapt and make more LFG-groups, but I'm not too optimistic about it. Sometimes getting group was just impossible during prime time. And plz dont give this silly advice about joining pvp guild. In case you didnt notice, pvp is bit dead for some time and there are not so many pvp guilds recruiting nowadays.

Astrid

BRogueNZ wrote: »

Astrid wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

Astrid wrote: »

Why you’d want to run around mindlessly healing faction members anyways is beyond me. Group up and dedicate your healing to specific people, not just radiating regen-ing your way to easy AP in the middle of a massive zerg doing sweet bot all.

[snip] See how assuming things about other based on their playstyle or opinion on game mechanics is going to give you an incorrect picture of them and their gameplay?

Solo healers do sweet bot all the same way you group players get carried to your AP gains by your groups. It might be true for some, but generalizing everyone is ignorant.

[edited for baiting]

See how assuming things about other based on their play style or opinion on game mechanics is gonna give your an incorrect picture of them and their gameplay?

You’re assuming I group heal PvP. Or even group at all. Been there, bored me to tears. Make a dd, look after yourself. I truly don’t see the issue with regulations on how many people you can babysit when someone’s even said to me earlier that I haven’t bothered to quote: you get more AP. You have less people yeeting around to heal, you have coordination within a group. Not really getting what the downside is except you can’t go in as a solo healer anymore and with how bad support roles are in general for cyrodiil I think it’s about time. Cross healing was absolutely dumb. Amount of times i’ve had duels interrupted by some random healer coming in is unbelievable. Stick to a group who actually want it.

[Quoted post was removed]

It’s more popular than what you think, but i digress. Healers are fine in Cyro, by all means - just stick to your group. Not seeing the issue. If you wanna carry casuals, group with them. Easy.