Penetration in PvE in U28

RandomKodiak

When testing on my bow/bow stamsorc earlier wearing Tzogvin's so 1487pen from set, I only needed 18CP into pen on 21mil dummy to hit max. It's pretty insane and the extra CP into other stuff helped a lot with damage.

kojou

Overall I think this is a good thing. Penetration is a stat that can only be scaled to 100%. All they did is make it easier for groups to get there. Good organized groups will go after other buffs and debuffs and the ceiling will still rise, but the floor raises as well since "unorganized" groups will have a lot more penetration.

I am ok if this leads to Alkosh no longer being worn on a tank. Now we can run something else...

Kalantris

I personally loved Alkosh and still intend to use it. I'm not going to go for countless jewelry sets, upgrade them all the way, reroll them to infused just because there might be some overpenetration issues. I'll just scrap crusher, switch out my lightning staff to a resto on all my tanks (already using it on my plar tank) for the tasty 25% bonus hvy atack regen and stick to Alkosh. And a powered resto smells really nice for GDB and a vigor on backbar for a good measure just to *** off the healers.

Best regards,
Kalantris

Tannus15

Kalantris wrote: »

I personally loved Alkosh and still intend to use it. I'm not going to go for countless jewelry sets, upgrade them all the way, reroll them to infused just because there might be some overpenetration issues. I'll just scrap crusher, switch out my lightning staff to a resto on all my tanks (already using it on my plar tank) for the tasty 25% bonus hvy atack regen and stick to Alkosh. And a powered resto smells really nice for GDB and a vigor on backbar for a good measure just to *** off the healers.

Best regards,
Kalantris

What I really like about tanking is that people don't care what sets you use, only the support they get.
No one cares how you hit the pen cap, only that you DO hit the pen cap.

FangOfTheTwoMoons

Stahlor wrote: »

All I try to say is - how can you like a set, that is not designed for a tank - or in other words, wouldn't people prefer to have more real tank support sets e.g. an Alkosh with tanking relevant bonuses?

I'm talking about content, where a proper tank is needed btw., not "half" tanks in light/medium armour.

Nope. 99% of the time a Tank wearing a support set (like Alkosh) is better. You just do not need to build for survivability outside of wearing heavy armor and putting some points into your Health Attribute. Of course there are some fights where you need it but for a majority of the content building for a traditional Tank is less optimal.

Edit: I understand what you're saying about the set not providing any "Tank" bonuses, but like i said above, you do not need anymore survivability so having the extra damage is actually better.

Skjaldbjorn

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Stahlor wrote: »

All I try to say is - how can you like a set, that is not designed for a tank - or in other words, wouldn't people prefer to have more real tank support sets e.g. an Alkosh with tanking relevant bonuses?

I'm talking about content, where a proper tank is needed btw., not "half" tanks in light/medium armour.

Nope. 99% of the time a Tank wearing a support set (like Alkosh) is better. You just do not need to build for survivability outside of wearing heavy armor and putting some points into your Health Attribute. Of course there are some fights where you need it but for a majority of the content building for a traditional Tank is less optimal.

This. Falgraven hits harder than anything we've ever seen that I can recall, and is still perfectly tankable with Alkosh.

Saubon

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Nope. 99% of the time a Tank wearing a support set (like Alkosh) is better. You just do not need to build for survivability outside of wearing heavy armor and putting some points into your Health Attribute. Of course there are some fights where you need it but for a majority of the content building for a traditional Tank is less optimal.

Sure, still you can wear a different support set, yolna/galenwe (or powerful assault) looks really promising for magicka groups in next patch (since pen cap will be much easier to hit).

I assume you are a tank, so in next patch if you just taunt a boss and proc crusher enchant magblades will overpen by 688 without investing a single point into spell erosion, any other penetration debuff will go to waste.

Stahlor

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

This. Falgraven hits harder than anything we've ever seen that I can recall, and is still perfectly tankable with Alkosh.

Of course you can tank with Alkosh, especially by using jewellery/weapons only. That's not the point. A lot of people said, that they are happy, if they don't have to use Alkosh anymore and others repeated, that they love Alkosh for tanking.
The only way you could fall in love with Alkosh on a tank is having fun to time the synergies. The rest is just complete *** on a proper tank.

I'll explain it differently, because some people don't seem to understand:
Let's say ZOS is going to change Olorime the next patch. Olorime is one of the main healing support sets in the moment. They are going to make it medium armour:
2 pieces: weapon damage
3 pieces: minor slayer
4 piece: weapon crit
5 piece: major courage

Would you say "I love Olorime on my healer, cause it's a great support set - gives my group more damage"?

Kolzki

Stahlor wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

This. Falgraven hits harder than anything we've ever seen that I can recall, and is still perfectly tankable with Alkosh.

Of course you can tank with Alkosh, especially by using jewellery/weapons only. That's not the point. A lot of people said, that they are happy, if they don't have to use Alkosh anymore and others repeated, that they love Alkosh for tanking.
The only way you could fall in love with Alkosh on a tank is having fun to time the synergies. The rest is just complete *** on a proper tank.

I'll explain it differently, because some people don't seem to understand:
Let's say ZOS is going to change Olorime the next patch. Olorime is one of the main healing support sets in the moment. They are going to make it medium armour:
2 pieces: weapon damage
3 pieces: minor slayer
4 piece: weapon crit
5 piece: major courage

Would you say "I love Olorime on my healer, cause it's a great support set - gives my group more damage"?

To be honest that looks like an interesting set for my tank. I’d definitely farm it. With the major courage buff this patch, it would be a nice support DD set for three DD groups too. Not to mention the mythical creature that is a stamina healer. Can we have that set in game please?

Stahlor

Kolzki wrote: »

To be honest that looks like an interesting set for my tank. I’d definitely farm it. With the major courage buff this patch, it would be a nice support DD set for three DD groups too. Not to mention the mythical creature that is a stamina healer. Can we have that set in game please?

To be honest, Olorime is already quite good on a tank for 4-man content. I use it myself.

Kolzki

Stahlor wrote: »

Kolzki wrote: »

To be honest that looks like an interesting set for my tank. I’d definitely farm it. With the major courage buff this patch, it would be a nice support DD set for three DD groups too. Not to mention the mythical creature that is a stamina healer. Can we have that set in game please?

To be honest, Olorime is already quite good on a tank for 4-man content. I use it myself.

Indeed it is. Olorime is great for tanking 3dd runs.

Noldornir

How could Alkosh die after an added minor breach to a taunt since said minor breach was already provided by Templar healers with power of the light?

The only thing that will change is... Templar healers won't probably use PotL anymore (assuming the tank is actually using that morph over the protective one).

Btw as @AgaTheGreat pointed: the less the fight last the better for you (tank). My hardest fights as tank weren't the toughest ones with more damage on me but the longest ones.

Tannus15

Noldornir wrote: »

How could Alkosh die after an added minor breach to a taunt since said minor breach was already provided by Templar healers with power of the light?

The only thing that will change is... Templar healers won't probably use PotL anymore (assuming the tank is actually using that morph over the protective one).

Btw as @AgaTheGreat pointed: the less the fight last the better for you (tank). My hardest fights as tank weren't the toughest ones with more damage on me but the longest ones.

they buffed both major breach and minor breach, as well as basically gave us minor breach for free.
we now get 9k pen from both of those instead of 6600 for both buffs

karekiz

As a tank its silly to say Alkosh is my favorite/hated set. Both sides.

Its irrelevant as long as you help the team do more dmg. It can be alkosh or <Insert new set sold to make you buy an expansion here>.

If there is a patch that makes your team comp not use Alkosh then so be it. Slap on something else and boost dmg another way. Tanking stats don't really matter though it IS nice to pick up an item and actually see your character gain a stat boost be it health or stamina etc.

idk

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

I feel like penetration in PvE U28 will be off the charts with pierce armor applying minor and major breach and the buffs to both of these debuffs.

PvE penetration is capped at 18k.
You get:
- 6k from Major Breach
- 3k from Minor Breach
- 2k from Crusher Enchant

The averge DD also has 4k pen from CP.
Mag Chars in Light Armor also get another 4k. Bringing the penetration for mag Chars to 19k pen (overpenning in PvE)

If you have stamina Chars in the trial you can also use Tremorscale which gives an addition 2,4k pen. With one sharpened you get like 4k pen as well which again bring the pen to cap.

These changes kill off Alkosh in PvE which is a shame considering its my favourite tanking set in the game.

Pen cap is 18200 but you can always put less points in Spell Erosion.

Secondly, killing Alkosh was a change desired by so many tanks. If there was somebody liking wearing Alkosh on his tank like you, that a was a very small minority.

The majority of tanks (old tank class rep programme discord) loved that set. I dont think it was a very small minority.

I never heard complaints about the set. It performed well.

IonicKai

Ok so let me get this straight what math am I missing that you think mag is at cap without investment from either CP, sharpened, or alkosh
Changes from the notes:
Minor Breach: Increased to 2974, up from 1320.
Major Breach:
Increased to 5948, up from 5280.
Major Breach now affects both Physical and Spell Resistance equally

Math:
Infused Crusher enchant: 2108 (taken from live I assume it's still close to this)
Major breach: 5948
Minor breach: 2974
Light armor passive: 4884

Total: 4,884+2,108+5,948+2,974 = 15914
Total without LA passive: 2,108+5,948+2,974 = 11030

The raid target dummy has the Alkosh debuff. You still are missing 2-7k pen without alkosh and other investment. Tanks would likely still wear alkosh

Edit: I really think what the devs are trying to do here is lessen the requirement to have perfect comp for majority of the buffs and debuffs. Having major minor breach apply from a skill tanks standardly use helps groups that aren't as knowledgeable about comp and the penetration calculations.

virtus753

IonicKai wrote: »

Ok so let me get this straight what math am I missing that you think mag is at cap without investment from either CP, sharpened, or alkosh
Changes from the notes:
Minor Breach: Increased to 2974, up from 1320.
Major Breach:
Increased to 5948, up from 5280.
Major Breach now affects both Physical and Spell Resistance equally

Math:
Infused Crusher enchant: 2108 (taken from live I assume it's still close to this)
Major breach: 5948
Minor breach: 2974
Light armor passive: 4884

Total: 4,884+2,108+5,948+2,974 = 15914
Total without LA passive: 2,108+5,948+2,974 = 11030

The raid target dummy has the Alkosh debuff. You still are missing 2-7k pen without alkosh and other investment. Tanks would likely still wear alkosh

Edit: I really think what the devs are trying to do here is lessen the requirement to have perfect comp for majority of the buffs and debuffs. Having major minor breach apply from a skill tanks standardly use helps groups that aren't as knowledgeable about comp and the penetration calculations.

The raid dummy gives an infused Torug’s Pact crusher enchant debuff (2700+) and Alkosh.

That’s how a mag user is overpenetrating on that dummy with Concentration alone.

I don’t think anyone here claimed it would be overpenetration outside a raid dummy without Alkosh.

IonicKai

virtus753 wrote: »

IonicKai wrote: »

Ok so let me get this straight what math am I missing that you think mag is at cap without investment from either CP, sharpened, or alkosh
Changes from the notes:
Minor Breach: Increased to 2974, up from 1320.
Major Breach:
Increased to 5948, up from 5280.
Major Breach now affects both Physical and Spell Resistance equally

Math:
Infused Crusher enchant: 2108 (taken from live I assume it's still close to this)
Major breach: 5948
Minor breach: 2974
Light armor passive: 4884

Total: 4,884+2,108+5,948+2,974 = 15914
Total without LA passive: 2,108+5,948+2,974 = 11030

The raid target dummy has the Alkosh debuff. You still are missing 2-7k pen without alkosh and other investment. Tanks would likely still wear alkosh

Edit: I really think what the devs are trying to do here is lessen the requirement to have perfect comp for majority of the buffs and debuffs. Having major minor breach apply from a skill tanks standardly use helps groups that aren't as knowledgeable about comp and the penetration calculations.

The raid dummy gives an infused Torug’s Pact crusher enchant debuff (2700+) and Alkosh.

That’s how a mag user is overpenetrating on that dummy with Concentration alone.

I don’t think anyone here claimed it would be overpenetration outside a raid dummy without Alkosh.

People are on here saying "tanks won't wear alkosh any more" and I'm trying to figure what they think is happening. I know the dummy does alkosh and that's my point. It will still be there just doesn't need to be optimized in mag comps and max pen requires less investment from CP in stam comps.

Stahlor

virtus753 wrote: »

...The raid dummy gives an infused Torug’s Pact crusher enchant debuff (2700+)...

When was that introduced?

SodanTok

Stahlor wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

...The raid dummy gives an infused Torug’s Pact crusher enchant debuff (2700+)...

When was that introduced?

Was always the case. Not sure if the value on raid dummy was updated when Torug Crusher got buffed from 2741 to 3056 but current PTS dummy has indeed 3056 value and 2741 was present at Elsweyr patch already.

Texecutioner187

Curious - what is the downside/upside to surpassing the penetration cap?

Sanguinor2

Texecutioner187 wrote: »

Curious - what is the downside/upside to surpassing the penetration cap?

In PvE surpassing the pen cap makes each extra point of pen that you have worthless, it doesnt do anything unless a debuff falls off or your pen changes otherwise. So in PvE you optimally never want to overpen.
In PvP it is much harder to overpen since you have to get through 33k resistances instead of the 18k from PvE and if someone is over resist cap your overpen will still help you.