A Question for the OG's Regarding Effect Stacking.

relentless_turnip

I have been playing for 2 years so I am asking out of ignorance.

Is it true that effects of the same type never used to stack? i.e. You and your teammate couldn't apply the same skill to a target like if I cast burning embers, my teammate casting the same spell would just refresh the effect rather than stacking.
My question to the OG's essentially is: did you notice a difference to performance when this was introduced? if it was introduced at all.

I heard this was the case on launch, but was changed as it made PVE content problematic.

The reason I ask is that it seems to me if an effect couldn't stack we could lose a significant amount of calculations... Removing stacking from beneficial skills such as rapid regen would also significantly reduce the effectiveness of a ballgroup and force more players to spec as an actual healer. It would ideally be limited to PVP zones as I understand the need for the original change. I can also understand this causes issues for skills like burning embers, swallow soul etc...

Wouldn't this be an appropriate test for cyrodill outside of aoe tests?

Proc sets would also be far less oppressive if the most popular ones could only be applied once .

This is just a question, as I am also eager to see how the game performs under the last 2 cyrodill tests and hope to see a solution that combines the methodology behind many of these tests as well as making as many skills single target as possible.
I have also previously proposed my own idea to how we could reduce the effectiveness of ballgroups and reduce aoe. By combining the last 2 tests with the addition of an option that would enable a player to switch off the sharing function of their heals, hots and buffs. Sharing effects would be limited to 3 players per group exceeding this would cause significant cooldowns and ramping costs.
You can read that here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/545458/i-like-less-aoe-an-opinion-formed-by-the-cyrodill-tests/p1

Rungar

Needs a holistic approach:

1) new stacking system for dots and hots that allows dot effects from different players but has a different effect on the player. When you have a specific dot on you its just that skill. If another person puts the same dot on you you get a special condition.

so we take poison ( any skill poison dot). Phase one you just get the skill on you. Phase two you get dot refresh and the poison 2 debuff instead of the extra dot. If another does it it advances to poison 3. After poison 3 its just a dot refresh

poison 2 has minor defile in it for a longer duration
poison 3 has major defile for a longer duration


same with hots. Your first hot is the skill. The second hot refreshes the hit and gives minor fortitude. the third gives major fortitude.

so the skills dont stack anymore, you only get the refresh but we alter the "condition" factor to have multiple layers to smooth out the gameplay. Race and other conditional resistance buffs like fire and poison will be changed to lessen the effect of the scaling condition but not prevent it.

2) No group frames at all in cyrodiil. They arent needed. You can still play with your friends without the group frame. This just adds a challenge factor to organized groups which is sorely needed. You still have your dischord and the zone chat.

3) Complete revamp of aoe skills with a combination of skill effect changes, fatigue, and cost increases.

4) Light attacks on the global timer with other skills and the recently tested light attack regen added to it. This will greatly lower possible procs per second.

four of these combined will bring great performance improvements and not just cyrodiil either. They will also promote better build diversity because it wont make sense for too many people to use the same build. With the exception of the group frame these changes should be pve as well.

Ectheliontnacil

Rungar wrote: »

Needs a holistic approach:

1) new stacking system for dots and hots that allows dot effects from different players but has a different effect on the player. When you have a specific dot on you its just that skill. If another person puts the same dot on you you get a special condition.

so we take poison ( any skill poison dot). Phase one you just get the skill on you. Phase two you get dot refresh and the poison 2 debuff instead of the extra dot. If another does it it advances to poison 3. After poison 3 its just a dot refresh

poison 2 has minor defile in it for a longer duration
poison 3 has major defile for a longer duration


same with hots. Your first hot is the skill. The second hot refreshes the hit and gives minor fortitude. the third gives major fortitude.

so the skills dont stack anymore, you only get the refresh but we alter the "condition" factor to have multiple layers to smooth out the gameplay.

2) No group frames at all in cyrodiil. They arent needed. You can still play with your friends without the group frame. This just adds a challenge factor to organized groups which is sorely needed. You still have your dischord and the zone chat.

3) Complete revamp of aoe skills with a combination of skill effect changes, fatigue, and cost increases.

4) Light attacks on the global timer with other skills and the recently tested light attack regen added to it. This will greatly lower possible procs per second.

four of these combined will bring great performance improvements and not just cyrodiil either. They will also promote better build diversity because it wont make sense for too many people to use the same build. With the exception of the group frame these changes should be pve as well.

I really wouldn't call this a 'holistic' approach. You'd be gutting the combat system completely.
1)Since you're talking about pvp exclusively, I don't see how removing dot stacking would help performance - it's rare for you to have 2-3 stacks of the same effect on you in cyro. And adding things like defile and fortitude isn't necessarily less resource intensive.
2)That's just never going to happen.
3)Seems like ZOS will be going that direction anyways. Even tho as far as I can tell people aren't enjoying any of the proposed AoE changes.
4)Are you suggesting they should be placed on the same GCD as skills or on a separate one? Because if LAs are on the same GCD then every decent player that's left will instantly quit the game.
If you're talking about a separate one, then performance wise I don't see anything changes, since nobody light attacks more than once per second... Knowing ZOS weaving will just end up feeling more clunky.

relentless_turnip

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

Needs a holistic approach:

1) new stacking system for dots and hots that allows dot effects from different players but has a different effect on the player. When you have a specific dot on you its just that skill. If another person puts the same dot on you you get a special condition.

so we take poison ( any skill poison dot). Phase one you just get the skill on you. Phase two you get dot refresh and the poison 2 debuff instead of the extra dot. If another does it it advances to poison 3. After poison 3 its just a dot refresh

poison 2 has minor defile in it for a longer duration
poison 3 has major defile for a longer duration


same with hots. Your first hot is the skill. The second hot refreshes the hit and gives minor fortitude. the third gives major fortitude.

so the skills dont stack anymore, you only get the refresh but we alter the "condition" factor to have multiple layers to smooth out the gameplay.

2) No group frames at all in cyrodiil. They arent needed. You can still play with your friends without the group frame. This just adds a challenge factor to organized groups which is sorely needed. You still have your dischord and the zone chat.

3) Complete revamp of aoe skills with a combination of skill effect changes, fatigue, and cost increases.

4) Light attacks on the global timer with other skills and the recently tested light attack regen added to it. This will greatly lower possible procs per second.

four of these combined will bring great performance improvements and not just cyrodiil either. They will also promote better build diversity because it wont make sense for too many people to use the same build. With the exception of the group frame these changes should be pve as well.

I really wouldn't call this a 'holistic' approach. You'd be gutting the combat system completely.
1)Since you're talking about pvp exclusively, I don't see how removing dot stacking would help performance - it's rare for you to have 2-3 stacks of the same effect on you in cyro. And adding things like defile and fortitude isn't necessarily less resource intensive.
2)That's just never going to happen.
3)Seems like ZOS will be going that direction anyways. Even tho as far as I can tell people aren't enjoying any of the proposed AoE changes.
4)Are you suggesting they should be placed on the same GCD as skills or on a separate one? Because if LAs are on the same GCD then every decent player that's left will instantly quit the game.
If you're talking about a separate one, then performance wise I don't see anything changes, since nobody light attacks more than once per second... Knowing ZOS weaving will just end up feeling more clunky.

Besides all of that, my intention was to talk about performance before stacking was possible and performance now. I wanted to hear the experience of someone who had experienced performance in both scenario's.

I may have made the subject a little convoluted by stating my own opinion on how I feel performance could be improved.
This was to intended to indicate my intention in the post and not have people immediately assume I believe to be "the answer" to performance issues.

By all means discuss your own opinion on how things could be improved, but could we avoid turning this into a "animation cancelling is an exploit" thread. It happens it literally every thread regardless of the subject matter and it is an ignorant position IMO. The ability to light attack(auto attack) and activate a skill is present in most MMO's this one just requires you to click the mouse. Most WOW players used to use "swing timer" addon so you could maximise DPS by weaving skills in between them.

Rungar

your completely wrong.

The rapid regen hot is the core ability for any ball group. Some groups have it stacking up to 12 times. That is the secret to their success. The condition elevation system removed that cheese and replaces it with a reasonable system that gives benefits but limits obscene stacking.

like all eso free damage problems you seem to want everything at no cost. Veiled quitting threats mean nothing.

relentless_turnip

Rungar wrote: »

your completely wrong.

The rapid regen hot is the core ability for any ball group. Some groups have it stacking up to 12 times. That is the secret to their success. The condition elevation system removed that cheese and replaces it with a reasonable system that gives benefits but limits obscene stacking.

like all eso free damage problems you seem to want everything at no cost. Veiled quitting threats mean nothing.

Who are you speaking to? This response is completely incoherent to my OP....

Xuhora

@relentless_turnip unfortunatly you have been Rungared.... prepare for an endless spiral of neverending free dmg, exploiting and AC is cheating phrases while not partaking in any useful discussion.

as for you suggestion: id rather see a CD for individual AoEs than having AoEs not stack... since the "smart casting" of lets say rapid regen isnt that smart, it could happen that all your rapid regen cast would hit targets allready affected by it, thus resulting in a cast for nothing.

relentless_turnip

Xuhora wrote: »

@relentless_turnip unfortunatly you have been Rungared.... prepare for an endless spiral of neverending free dmg, exploiting and AC is cheating phrases while not partaking in any useful discussion.

as for you suggestion: id rather see a CD for individual AoEs than having AoEs not stack... since the "smart casting" of lets say rapid regen isnt that smart, it could happen that all your rapid regen cast would hit targets allready affected by it, thus resulting in a cast for nothing.

I believe I have come across him before, though you missed "macros" in your list of his regular accusations

Thanks for your opinion, I appreciate it!
It wasn't much a suggestion as it was a question to those who have experienced both scenario's. I actually haven't minded cooldowns as much as I thought I would, but respec'd so they it only really affected my buff cycle. You are right about smart healing not being smart enough to always make it a worthy cast. It would be better than fighting a group where every player that has at least 4 stacks on each of them IMO.

Rungar

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

@relentless_turnip unfortunatly you have been Rungared.... prepare for an endless spiral of neverending free dmg, exploiting and AC is cheating phrases while not partaking in any useful discussion.

as for you suggestion: id rather see a CD for individual AoEs than having AoEs not stack... since the "smart casting" of lets say rapid regen isnt that smart, it could happen that all your rapid regen cast would hit targets allready affected by it, thus resulting in a cast for nothing.

I believe I have come across him before, though you missed "macros" in your list of his regular accusations

Thanks for your opinion, I appreciate it!
It wasn't much a suggestion as it was a question to those who have experienced both scenario's. I actually haven't minded cooldowns as much as I thought I would, but respec'd so they it only really affected my buff cycle. You are right about smart healing not being smart enough to always make it a worthy cast. It would be better than fighting a group where every player that has at least 4 stacks on each of them IMO.

so far ive seen two "solutions" to the cooldowns based on player behavior.

1) stop using aoe skills that have cooldowns
2) stop playing altogether

neither of these are viable solutions. I played with the cooldowns on all my characters with minimal skill changes and it sucked. I would say you guys need to come up with something but you never come up with anything. The only reason you want procs changed is because your no longer immortal. They dont bother me at all and most of my characters have 20k health and minimal armor.

relentless_turnip

Rungar wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

@relentless_turnip unfortunatly you have been Rungared.... prepare for an endless spiral of neverending free dmg, exploiting and AC is cheating phrases while not partaking in any useful discussion.

as for you suggestion: id rather see a CD for individual AoEs than having AoEs not stack... since the "smart casting" of lets say rapid regen isnt that smart, it could happen that all your rapid regen cast would hit targets allready affected by it, thus resulting in a cast for nothing.

I believe I have come across him before, though you missed "macros" in your list of his regular accusations

Thanks for your opinion, I appreciate it!
It wasn't much a suggestion as it was a question to those who have experienced both scenario's. I actually haven't minded cooldowns as much as I thought I would, but respec'd so they it only really affected my buff cycle. You are right about smart healing not being smart enough to always make it a worthy cast. It would be better than fighting a group where every player that has at least 4 stacks on each of them IMO.

so far ive seen two "solutions" to the cooldowns based on player behavior.

1) stop using aoe skills that have cooldowns
2) stop playing altogether

neither of these are viable solutions. I played with the cooldowns on all my characters with minimal skill changes and it sucked. I would say you guys need to come up with something but you never come up with anything. The only reason you want procs changed is because your no longer immortal. They dont bother me at all and most of my characters have 20k health and minimal armor.

Oh I see... so you haven't come here to offer anything of value?
Just to insult those of the community that try...

You are making completely unwarranted assumptions based on what? Our opinions?
The only thing you seem to ever add to a discussion is accusing everyone involved of cheating

Ectheliontnacil

Rungar wrote: »

your completely wrong.

The rapid regen hot is the core ability for any ball group. Some groups have it stacking up to 12 times. That is the secret to their success. The condition elevation system removed that cheese and replaces it with a reasonable system that gives benefits but limits obscene stacking.

like all eso free damage problems you seem to want everything at no cost. Veiled quitting threats mean nothing.

I didn't make any veiled quitting threats. I already quit haha and so did most of the people I know.

Sure ball groups spam hots on eachother and sure smallscalers are often affected by like 5 poison injections because there's a group of stamblades chasing them.
But the vast majority of pvp activity consists of uncoordinated, zerg vs zerg battles. No extreme hot or dot stacking from from single target effects. The problem is AoEs, but that's already being addressed by ZOS.

And no matter what the causes of cyro lag are, all of the commonly proposed solutions just replace the lag problem with a bad combat system and completely unbalanced classes.