A second huge nerf to healing, yet wards go untouched?

Fawn4287

Wards are overall a horrible idea for PvP in this game, to allow a build with 25-30k health to effectively bring that up to 40-45k on an almost permanent basis whilst still maintaining such a high effective spell power is always going to tilt heavily in its favour, especially in 1v1 scenarios. Now healing is being nerfed again which makes all other builds that rely on these, particularly warden and dk receiving the heaviest ones effectively even harder to play again. Magsorc on the other hand which is already incredibly strong and in a good position has evaded the nerf again thanks to their healing option being double wards. Wards need an overall change and should all work like the old healing ward and give a heal up to the tool tip based on missing health, rather than being able to constantly stack and effectively doubling their health at all times.

Karm1cOne

Wards have been nerfed several times in the last few years. If you saw what wards were before the nerfs, your head would explode. They used to last 20 seconds and weren't capped by health.

Fawn4287

Karm1cOne wrote: »

Wards have been nerfed several times in the last few years. If you saw what wards were before the nerfs, your head would explode. They used to last 20 seconds and weren't capped by health.

At one point stealth doubled damaged and allowed for 30k hit onslaught ganking that instantly refunded the ult, you could spam camo hunter to continually add damage to your next hit, poor balance in the past isn’t good reasoning for poor balance now.

AMeanOne

Shields these days are incredibly weak. I only see magsorc, magblade, and the occasional magden use them. Most people haven't had a problem deleting shield users in quite a few patches now.

pauld1_ESO

AMeanOne wrote: »

Shields these days are incredibly weak. I only see magsorc, magblade, and the occasional magden use them. Most people haven't had a problem deleting shield users in quite a few patches now.

Funny to hear when so often my burst is all numbers in parentheses.

Recapitated

Not gonna argue about magsorc shields cause I don't have good perspective on that in particular, but like so many things it seems to me healing itself should be adjusted, not the healing-adjacent thing.

SRASinister

I don't even use wards on my magblade anymore because how expensive they are and how little mitigation they do now. My HoTs are better for keeping me alive

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

I am going to be honest here, none of you may believe me or respect my opinion, but wards suck. Magsorcs are by far the easiest class to kill in pvp. They rarely ever have much more then 20k hp, low armor, and weak little wards that may keep them alive a couple seconds longer. If anything sorcs and wards could use a little boost. Quite frankly it isn't fair to them that stamina classes get to be tanky AF and deal just as much damage. I only play stamblade in pvp too, so don't be thinking I am biased in favor of sorcs, its just the truth. In the same way a grown man gains no enjoyment from beating a toddler, I too gain no enjoyment from completely dominating lil magsorcs. They need a buff.

Every day I watch magsorcs sweating their little pores out trying to kill me, only to get lit up and killed in one toxic barrage. Its sad and they used to be so dang op in the distant past. A middle ground needs to be found where they aren't as OP as ye olde magsorcs, but not free kills either like modern magsorcs. What is even more sad though is the people that actually think they are good right now, or even OP. Cringe

EtTuBrutus

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

I am going to be honest here, none of you may believe me or respect my opinion, but wards suck. Magsorcs are by far the easiest class to kill in pvp. They rarely ever have much more then 20k hp, low armor, and weak little wards that may keep them alive a couple seconds longer. If anything sorcs and wards could use a little boost. Quite frankly it isn't fair to them that stamina classes get to be tanky AF and deal just as much damage. I only play stamblade in pvp too, so don't be thinking I am biased in favor of sorcs, its just the truth. In the same way a grown man gains no enjoyment from beating a toddler, I too gain no enjoyment from completely dominating lil magsorcs. They need a buff.

Every day I watch magsorcs sweating their little pores out trying to kill me, only to get lit up and killed in one toxic barrage. Its sad and they used to be so dang op in the distant past. A middle ground needs to be found where they aren't as OP as ye olde magsorcs, but not free kills either like modern magsorcs. What is even more sad though is the people that actually think they are good right now, or even OP. Cringe

Stamblade defending ward's? I smell something fishy. How is 10k health extension not impacted by defile that's able to be applied proactively, not strong? Show me some clips of free winning vs magsorcs, I'll show you how you're fighting potatos. Good sorcs don't die.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

I am going to be honest here, none of you may believe me or respect my opinion, but wards suck. Magsorcs are by far the easiest class to kill in pvp. They rarely ever have much more then 20k hp, low armor, and weak little wards that may keep them alive a couple seconds longer. If anything sorcs and wards could use a little boost. Quite frankly it isn't fair to them that stamina classes get to be tanky AF and deal just as much damage. I only play stamblade in pvp too, so don't be thinking I am biased in favor of sorcs, its just the truth. In the same way a grown man gains no enjoyment from beating a toddler, I too gain no enjoyment from completely dominating lil magsorcs. They need a buff.

Every day I watch magsorcs sweating their little pores out trying to kill me, only to get lit up and killed in one toxic barrage. Its sad and they used to be so dang op in the distant past. A middle ground needs to be found where they aren't as OP as ye olde magsorcs, but not free kills either like modern magsorcs. What is even more sad though is the people that actually think they are good right now, or even OP. Cringe

Stamblade defending ward's? I smell something fishy. How is 10k health extension not impacted by defile that's able to be applied proactively, not strong? Show me some clips of free winning vs magsorcs, I'll show you how you're fighting potatos. Good sorcs don't die.

I simply kill them faster then they can recover with wards. How do they have 10k wards? I kill them long before I let them stack two wards at once. Seriously, 20k health with low resistance is not hard to burst down. I play strictly no cp and bgs. They seem so neutered and weak when I think back at how strong they were in the past. I struggled to kill them even with the old shieldbreaker set that did damage through shields. Maybe its a cp where they are super tanky? Everything is super tanky in cp though.

Atherakhia

We're literally playing Elder Stamina Online and we're trying to advocate for mag nerfs. Come on guys...

evoniee

shiled is only strong because some spec have deadly rotation ,high offensive capabilities and other defensive skill.
IE mag sorc have good defensive skill such as crit surge, streak, and dark conversion. they also have reliable and high tier rotation / combo to preassure back enemy.

the only possible rebalance is reduce the duration to 5 sec.

Hotdog_23

Shields should have been reduced by 60% the same as healing in the last change to battle spirit. To me and maybe I am wrong but a shield is just healing in reverse.

Be safe and have fun

WuffyCerulei

Wards WERE very strong at one point. 20 second timers, uncritable, no health cap, dumb scaling. Now they’re much weaker now that you need a crap ton of magicka or points into Bastion, only last 6 seconds, can be crit on, had their costs increased, and not to mention Battle Spirit cutting shields in half. Being unable to kill a magsorc because their only real defense is their shield does not mean shields need to be nerfed.

Sleep724

Wards on magsorc seem strong because of other skills that overload their class. Mostly streak that let’s them get away and stun whenever they want while shielding up, a free insta cast high damage ability and a fire and forget execute that can be done at max range.

Xargas13

Wards aren't very strong, playing magnecro and after healing nerf it's the only thing that helps me survive, if you have an issue with magsorcs, take it out on them, don't bring others into it. Call for nerf to their burst or whatever.

KylKad

Didn't read anything but the post header and first thought was why nerf game content...when will they nerf the bugs in the game 😬

Recapitated

Sleep724 wrote: »

Wards on magsorc seem strong because of other skills that overload their class. Mostly streak that let’s them get away and stun whenever they want while shielding up, a free insta cast high damage ability and a fire and forget execute that can be done at max range.

Someone suggested that Fury should only work when you or an ally cause the target to cross the threshold, as a magsorc I wouldn't mind that. I don't run it anymore actually.

jaws343

My favorite part of this nerf sorc post is thinking they run between 25-30k health effectively. Try 20-25K. And a 15K shield, lol. Maybe before health scaling. 15K shield is not something that is actually realistic. Try 9K. And that 9K is if you are stacking mag to 50K+ with passive mag boosting skills like inner light and bound aegis, boosting fully into Bastion, and health with cyrodil buff is around 22-24K depending on enchants. So, 8-9K shield, but you have to basically go all out into unsustainable levels of min/max on max mag.

Now, I know it, we all know it, "But shield stacking!"

Hardened Ward Cost after passives: 3655
Dampen Magic Cost after passives: 3884
So to stack these two shields, you would need to spend 7,539 magicka. And they last 6 seconds. And, since they can now be crit on, that 8-9K shield per stack is gone in a few seconds. A good sorc isn't going to sheild stack, because it is unsustainable, and spending 7.5K every few seconds to keep shields up is not viable to win a fight. If you can't burst them down and wear out their magicka pool when they get into stacking mode, you burst is just bad. And if you are fighting a 1 shield sorc and you can't burst an 8-9K critable shield, then they deserve to beat you.

EtTuBrutus

jaws343 wrote: »

My favorite part of this nerf sorc post is thinking they run between 25-30k health effectively. Try 20-25K. And a 15K shield, lol. Maybe before health scaling. 15K shield is not something that is actually realistic. Try 9K. And that 9K is if you are stacking mag to 50K+ with passive mag boosting skills like inner light and bound aegis, boosting fully into Bastion, and health with cyrodil buff is around 22-24K depending on enchants. So, 8-9K shield, but you have to basically go all out into unsustainable levels of min/max on max mag.

Now, I know it, we all know it, "But shield stacking!"

Hardened Ward Cost after passives: 3655
Dampen Magic Cost after passives: 3884
So to stack these two shields, you would need to spend 7,539 magicka. And they last 6 seconds. And, since they can now be crit on, that 8-9K shield per stack is gone in a few seconds. A good sorc isn't going to sheild stack, because it is unsustainable, and spending 7.5K every few seconds to keep shields up is not viable to win a fight. If you can't burst them down and wear out their magicka pool when they get into stacking mode, you burst is just bad. And if you are fighting a 1 shield sorc and you can't burst an 8-9K critable shield, then they deserve to beat you.

9k hardened ward is any cp build with max mag.

The size isn't even the problem.
It's that it isn't impacted by defile.
Its as strong or stronger than a crit burst heal on any other class.
It never over heals, but essentially killing it's cost efficiency. Stacking essentially alleviates recasting to early, which would be a wards version of over healing.
It's a proactive defense. This makes it an extremely safe playstyle, meaning good players will dominate with it.

Sure you have to build into max mag. Building into max magicka is a good thing as it's incredibly impactful for offense, defense, sustain.

Edit: GOOD players

AMeanOne

Players will dominate with it? Lol oof

wheem_ESO

Atherakhia wrote: »

We're literally playing Elder Stamina Online and we're trying to advocate for mag nerfs. Come on guys...

Seriously. Every time I see a thread complaining about shields, it makes me think someone necro'd a post from like 2018.

I virtually never encounter shields in BGs, and Magicka classes in general are much easier to kill than their stamina counterparts. Some of the people complaining about shields should start up a Magicka character, and play against decent-or-better opponents with proper builds and see just how much those "OP" shields help them survive. Especially in no-CP.

WreckfulAbandon

jaws343 wrote: »

My favorite part of this nerf sorc post is thinking they run between 25-30k health effectively. Try 20-25K. And a 15K shield, lol. Maybe before health scaling. 15K shield is not something that is actually realistic. Try 9K. And that 9K is if you are stacking mag to 50K+ with passive mag boosting skills like inner light and bound aegis, boosting fully into Bastion, and health with cyrodil buff is around 22-24K depending on enchants. So, 8-9K shield, but you have to basically go all out into unsustainable levels of min/max on max mag.

Now, I know it, we all know it, "But shield stacking!"

Hardened Ward Cost after passives: 3655
Dampen Magic Cost after passives: 3884
So to stack these two shields, you would need to spend 7,539 magicka. And they last 6 seconds. And, since they can now be crit on, that 8-9K shield per stack is gone in a few seconds. A good sorc isn't going to sheild stack, because it is unsustainable, and spending 7.5K every few seconds to keep shields up is not viable to win a fight. If you can't burst them down and wear out their magicka pool when they get into stacking mode, you burst is just bad. And if you are fighting a 1 shield sorc and you can't burst an 8-9K critable shield, then they deserve to beat you.

Not gonna sit here and say its super hard to burst thru shields on an immobile target but 8-9k hardened wards are either in no-CP or on a bad build in CP (unless sorcs arent stacking max mag anymore, which I don't think is the case). And if you can show me an immobile sorc, I'll show you a bad sorc.

Lord-Otto

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

My favorite part of this nerf sorc post is thinking they run between 25-30k health effectively. Try 20-25K. And a 15K shield, lol. Maybe before health scaling. 15K shield is not something that is actually realistic. Try 9K. And that 9K is if you are stacking mag to 50K+ with passive mag boosting skills like inner light and bound aegis, boosting fully into Bastion, and health with cyrodil buff is around 22-24K depending on enchants. So, 8-9K shield, but you have to basically go all out into unsustainable levels of min/max on max mag.

Now, I know it, we all know it, "But shield stacking!"

Hardened Ward Cost after passives: 3655
Dampen Magic Cost after passives: 3884
So to stack these two shields, you would need to spend 7,539 magicka. And they last 6 seconds. And, since they can now be crit on, that 8-9K shield per stack is gone in a few seconds. A good sorc isn't going to sheild stack, because it is unsustainable, and spending 7.5K every few seconds to keep shields up is not viable to win a fight. If you can't burst them down and wear out their magicka pool when they get into stacking mode, you burst is just bad. And if you are fighting a 1 shield sorc and you can't burst an 8-9K critable shield, then they deserve to beat you.

Not gonna sit here and say its super hard to burst thru shields on an immobile target but 8-9k hardened wards are either in no-CP or on a bad build in CP (unless sorcs arent stacking max mag anymore, which I don't think is the case). And if you can show me an immobile sorc, I'll show you a bad sorc.

Duel sorcs or sorcs fighting in a tower. Streak is kinda useless there, mobility-wise.

EtTuBrutus

Lord-Otto wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

My favorite part of this nerf sorc post is thinking they run between 25-30k health effectively. Try 20-25K. And a 15K shield, lol. Maybe before health scaling. 15K shield is not something that is actually realistic. Try 9K. And that 9K is if you are stacking mag to 50K+ with passive mag boosting skills like inner light and bound aegis, boosting fully into Bastion, and health with cyrodil buff is around 22-24K depending on enchants. So, 8-9K shield, but you have to basically go all out into unsustainable levels of min/max on max mag.

Now, I know it, we all know it, "But shield stacking!"

Hardened Ward Cost after passives: 3655
Dampen Magic Cost after passives: 3884
So to stack these two shields, you would need to spend 7,539 magicka. And they last 6 seconds. And, since they can now be crit on, that 8-9K shield per stack is gone in a few seconds. A good sorc isn't going to sheild stack, because it is unsustainable, and spending 7.5K every few seconds to keep shields up is not viable to win a fight. If you can't burst them down and wear out their magicka pool when they get into stacking mode, you burst is just bad. And if you are fighting a 1 shield sorc and you can't burst an 8-9K critable shield, then they deserve to beat you.

Not gonna sit here and say its super hard to burst thru shields on an immobile target but 8-9k hardened wards are either in no-CP or on a bad build in CP (unless sorcs arent stacking max mag anymore, which I don't think is the case). And if you can show me an immobile sorc, I'll show you a bad sorc.

Duel sorcs or sorcs fighting in a tower. Streak is kinda useless there, mobility-wise.

You're crazy. Streak from 1 opening to the other to instant los.

MincVinyl

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Wards are overall a horrible idea for PvP in this game, to allow a build with 25-30k health to effectively bring that up to 40-45k on an almost permanent basis whilst still maintaining such a high effective spell power is always going to tilt heavily in its favour, especially in 1v1 scenarios. Now healing is being nerfed again which makes all other builds that rely on these, particularly warden and dk receiving the heaviest ones effectively even harder to play again. Magsorc on the other hand which is already incredibly strong and in a good position has evaded the nerf again thanks to their healing option being double wards. Wards need an overall change and should all work like the old healing ward and give a heal up to the tool tip based on missing health, rather than being able to constantly stack and effectively doubling their health at all times.

Wards were overall a great idea for PvP in this game. They are one of the only forms of Active player driven tankiness still available. Your issue you complain about is mainly driven at the fact that builds at this point are so stat inflated that 25-30khp is the norm. I haven't seen any of the top magsorcs running shield stack builds since like summerset.

Cinbri

Well, from latest patchnotes Battle Spirit heal reduction changed from 60% to 55%, so like 10% effective increase of heal.

Joy_Division

For one second let's suppose the OP's premise is right that wards are much more effective/efficient than healing.

How exactly does nerfing them and turning the sorcerer into a craptastic magikca based class - just like every other magicka spec - improve the game? In case you hadn't noticed, because ZOS has basically gutted anything interesting that a class can do, stamina specs have always been competitive and usually somewhere between meta and really strong because:

• No matter what ZOS does to our classes, they have options to 2 weapons with very good PvP oriented abilities (from which they shift between duel wield and 2H depending on what ZOS nerfs) and these skills hit ridiculously hard because ZOS keeps putting in ways to increase weapon damage. By comparison the destruction staff is an ok PvE weapon.
• No matter how much ZOS butchers old magicka skills that use to do multiple things like heal and damage, Stamina can always slot a very good heal in Vigor that scales on that ridiculously high weapon damage and not even be tied to a bad weapon like a resto staff.
• The magicka burst ultimate is the most telegraphed attack in the history of the game and somehow costs 200 ultimate. Dawnbreaker may have a stupid cast time, but it still hits hard, and costs a lot less.
• No matter how much ZOS nerfs the crap out of skills and healing, which is magicka's primary way of defending itself, stamina users by default will always be faster and will always be able to dodge more, which will forever work well at damage mitigation/avoidance no matter what questionable decisions the dev teams makes.
• Out of the 1,476,956,429 overpowered proc sets that have ever been in eso, at least 85% of those have been stamina based.

All of these mean that stamina players have a certain immunity to ZOS's nerfs because there are good options outside their over-nerfed classes.

I only recently started playing again because I got tired that ZOS had adopted the OP's approach of nerf anything that is either remotely interesting or effective. The number of magplars, magicka DKs, Mag wardens, and Mag necros I've encountered and fought that wasn't in a group or zerg-surfing has been zero. None. Nada. Zilch. I can't even tell what stamina classes I am fighting any more because they all basically are either Dizzy - Executioner spam or are Chernobyl inspired horrors that ooze unavoidable multiple poison procs that are far stronger than any class ability in the game. Unless it's a Sorc running Hurricane, I legit don't even know the classes these people run. The only reprieve I get from fighting proc sets is the only single viable magicka spec left - the sorcerer. And now you want to ruin that when ZOS has already in multiple patches nerfed the shields and their mechanics.

We're to the point where class abilities should not be compared to each other, rather should be compared to the ridiculously strong proc sets that have totally overshadowed anything a class can do. There isn't a class ability in the game that is, to use a word I hate, "overperforming" from this perspective. Nothing.

The interesting solution to the "problem" the OP identified in shields being too efficient/effective in relation to healing/alternative means classes have to defend themselves (lol, what are those? ZoS took them all away years ago) is not to ruin the sole remaining spec that actually relies on class abilities, but to improve the non shield/ward ways that people vainly attempt to use to defend themselves

Lord-Otto

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

My favorite part of this nerf sorc post is thinking they run between 25-30k health effectively. Try 20-25K. And a 15K shield, lol. Maybe before health scaling. 15K shield is not something that is actually realistic. Try 9K. And that 9K is if you are stacking mag to 50K+ with passive mag boosting skills like inner light and bound aegis, boosting fully into Bastion, and health with cyrodil buff is around 22-24K depending on enchants. So, 8-9K shield, but you have to basically go all out into unsustainable levels of min/max on max mag.

Now, I know it, we all know it, "But shield stacking!"

Hardened Ward Cost after passives: 3655
Dampen Magic Cost after passives: 3884
So to stack these two shields, you would need to spend 7,539 magicka. And they last 6 seconds. And, since they can now be crit on, that 8-9K shield per stack is gone in a few seconds. A good sorc isn't going to sheild stack, because it is unsustainable, and spending 7.5K every few seconds to keep shields up is not viable to win a fight. If you can't burst them down and wear out their magicka pool when they get into stacking mode, you burst is just bad. And if you are fighting a 1 shield sorc and you can't burst an 8-9K critable shield, then they deserve to beat you.

Not gonna sit here and say its super hard to burst thru shields on an immobile target but 8-9k hardened wards are either in no-CP or on a bad build in CP (unless sorcs arent stacking max mag anymore, which I don't think is the case). And if you can show me an immobile sorc, I'll show you a bad sorc.

Duel sorcs or sorcs fighting in a tower. Streak is kinda useless there, mobility-wise.

You're crazy. Streak from 1 opening to the other to instant los.

Opening? Tower fights always take place around the walls.

EtTuBrutus

Lord-Otto wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

My favorite part of this nerf sorc post is thinking they run between 25-30k health effectively. Try 20-25K. And a 15K shield, lol. Maybe before health scaling. 15K shield is not something that is actually realistic. Try 9K. And that 9K is if you are stacking mag to 50K+ with passive mag boosting skills like inner light and bound aegis, boosting fully into Bastion, and health with cyrodil buff is around 22-24K depending on enchants. So, 8-9K shield, but you have to basically go all out into unsustainable levels of min/max on max mag.

Now, I know it, we all know it, "But shield stacking!"

Hardened Ward Cost after passives: 3655
Dampen Magic Cost after passives: 3884
So to stack these two shields, you would need to spend 7,539 magicka. And they last 6 seconds. And, since they can now be crit on, that 8-9K shield per stack is gone in a few seconds. A good sorc isn't going to sheild stack, because it is unsustainable, and spending 7.5K every few seconds to keep shields up is not viable to win a fight. If you can't burst them down and wear out their magicka pool when they get into stacking mode, you burst is just bad. And if you are fighting a 1 shield sorc and you can't burst an 8-9K critable shield, then they deserve to beat you.

Not gonna sit here and say its super hard to burst thru shields on an immobile target but 8-9k hardened wards are either in no-CP or on a bad build in CP (unless sorcs arent stacking max mag anymore, which I don't think is the case). And if you can show me an immobile sorc, I'll show you a bad sorc.

Duel sorcs or sorcs fighting in a tower. Streak is kinda useless there, mobility-wise.

You're crazy. Streak from 1 opening to the other to instant los.

Opening? Tower fights always take place around the walls.

And those walls have an entrance on either side you can run around to los... are we talking about different things?

Lord-Otto

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

My favorite part of this nerf sorc post is thinking they run between 25-30k health effectively. Try 20-25K. And a 15K shield, lol. Maybe before health scaling. 15K shield is not something that is actually realistic. Try 9K. And that 9K is if you are stacking mag to 50K+ with passive mag boosting skills like inner light and bound aegis, boosting fully into Bastion, and health with cyrodil buff is around 22-24K depending on enchants. So, 8-9K shield, but you have to basically go all out into unsustainable levels of min/max on max mag.

Now, I know it, we all know it, "But shield stacking!"

Hardened Ward Cost after passives: 3655
Dampen Magic Cost after passives: 3884
So to stack these two shields, you would need to spend 7,539 magicka. And they last 6 seconds. And, since they can now be crit on, that 8-9K shield per stack is gone in a few seconds. A good sorc isn't going to sheild stack, because it is unsustainable, and spending 7.5K every few seconds to keep shields up is not viable to win a fight. If you can't burst them down and wear out their magicka pool when they get into stacking mode, you burst is just bad. And if you are fighting a 1 shield sorc and you can't burst an 8-9K critable shield, then they deserve to beat you.

Not gonna sit here and say its super hard to burst thru shields on an immobile target but 8-9k hardened wards are either in no-CP or on a bad build in CP (unless sorcs arent stacking max mag anymore, which I don't think is the case). And if you can show me an immobile sorc, I'll show you a bad sorc.

Duel sorcs or sorcs fighting in a tower. Streak is kinda useless there, mobility-wise.

You're crazy. Streak from 1 opening to the other to instant los.

Opening? Tower fights always take place around the walls.

And those walls have an entrance on either side you can run around to los... are we talking about different things?

Apparently. There is no opening you can streak to when you hug the wall. You rather streak off the balcony or into a wall.