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Minor Intellect/Endurance should be available to all classes

Langeston
Langeston
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Seeing as Minor Intellect/Endurance now both provide the same level of boost to sustain (20%) as Major Intellect/Endurance used to, shouldn't they be made available to all classes in some way, shape, or form? That's a pretty strong buff.
  • Husan
    Husan
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    Agreed. Same with major brutality/sorcery
  • OlumoGarbag
    OlumoGarbag
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    No

    Classes need some unique group buff and for now every class has one except necro which has debuffs instead
    class representative for the working class, non-cp, bwb and Trolling
  • Recapitated
    Recapitated
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    Langeston wrote: »
    Seeing as Minor Intellect/Endurance now both provide the same level of boost to sustain (20%) as Major Intellect/Endurance used to, shouldn't they be made available to all classes in some way, shape, or form? That's a pretty strong buff.

    Everyone got an extra 20% through the major versions of those buffs
  • Langeston
    Langeston
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    Langeston wrote: »
    Seeing as Minor Intellect/Endurance now both provide the same level of boost to sustain (20%) as Major Intellect/Endurance used to, shouldn't they be made available to all classes in some way, shape, or form? That's a pretty strong buff.

    Everyone got an extra 20% through the major versions of those buffs

    I know
  • Mayrael
    Mayrael
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    Langeston wrote: »
    Seeing as Minor Intellect/Endurance now both provide the same level of boost to sustain (20%) as Major Intellect/Endurance used to, shouldn't they be made available to all classes in some way, shape, or form? That's a pretty strong buff.

    Everyone got an extra 20% through the major versions of those buffs

    Yeah and templars now can have 60% more overall regen. They also have as the only ones minor breach and minor sorcery.

    Cries in magblade... Minor maim nerfed, major evasion nerfed, minor vulnerability nerfed. Yup, another awesome patch for magblades. But hey, I got used to it. At least nobody will say I play ez mode.
    Say no to Toxic Casuals!
    I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.


    "Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge
  • Recapitated
    Recapitated
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    Mayrael wrote: »
    Langeston wrote: »
    Seeing as Minor Intellect/Endurance now both provide the same level of boost to sustain (20%) as Major Intellect/Endurance used to, shouldn't they be made available to all classes in some way, shape, or form? That's a pretty strong buff.

    Everyone got an extra 20% through the major versions of those buffs

    Yeah and templars now can have 60% more overall regen. They also have as the only ones minor breach and minor sorcery.

    Cries in magblade... Minor maim nerfed, major evasion nerfed, minor vulnerability nerfed. Yup, another awesome patch for magblades. But hey, I got used to it. At least nobody will say I play ez mode.

    I'm also concerned about buffs that classes were balanced (using that word loosely) around and that are now gutted. I just don't think, especially given the extra sustain we got, that more sustain is going to fill the gap.
    Edited by Recapitated on September 24, 2020 1:47AM
  • LeHarrt91
    LeHarrt91
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    If in a trial/ Dungeon etc with a Warden healer, they will grant you both the minor buffs with Enchanted Growth.
    PS NA
    Have played all classes.
    Warden Main
  • Langeston
    Langeston
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    LeHarrt91 wrote: »
    If in a trial/ Dungeon etc with a Warden healer, they will grant you both the minor buffs with Enchanted Growth.
    If I played PVE I wouldn't be concerned about it — however I play mostly solo PVP & BGs.

    Even without Minor Intellect my magsorc outperforms my magblade with regard to sustain. Once you tack on the new +20% from Minor Intellect, the difference will be borderline absurd. Magblade sustain is a not insignificant part of why the class is so weak in PVP, IMO.
  • Langeston
    Langeston
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    Mayrael wrote: »
    Langeston wrote: »
    Seeing as Minor Intellect/Endurance now both provide the same level of boost to sustain (20%) as Major Intellect/Endurance used to, shouldn't they be made available to all classes in some way, shape, or form? That's a pretty strong buff.

    Everyone got an extra 20% through the major versions of those buffs

    Yeah and templars now can have 60% more overall regen. They also have as the only ones minor breach and minor sorcery.

    Cries in magblade... Minor maim nerfed, major evasion nerfed, minor vulnerability nerfed. Yup, another awesome patch for magblades. But hey, I got used to it. At least nobody will say I play ez mode.

    You and me both. :(

    I didn't even get around to thinking about the other buffs yet. Geez man, I don't understand how ZOS can make these sweeping, uniform changes without considering how wildly disparate the classes are. Every patch is just more square peg in a round hole changes, and somehow magblade is always the one that gets the short end of the stick.
  • LeHarrt91
    LeHarrt91
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    Langeston wrote: »
    LeHarrt91 wrote: »
    If in a trial/ Dungeon etc with a Warden healer, they will grant you both the minor buffs with Enchanted Growth.
    If I played PVE I wouldn't be concerned about it — however I play mostly solo PVP & BGs.

    Even without Minor Intellect my magsorc outperforms my magblade with regard to sustain. Once you tack on the new +20% from Minor Intellect, the difference will be borderline absurd. Magblade sustain is a not insignificant part of why the class is so weak in PVP, IMO.

    For passive recovery , yes. But they also have other forms of recovery like Dark Deal and Siphoning Strikes, and passives when abilites end/ when an enemy dies. Do you still feel like sustain is a major issues in pvp?
    i havent pvp'd on Mag NB in years but i do on sorc and i feel i need to invest in recovery more than my warden, due to more expensive skills.
    PS NA
    Have played all classes.
    Warden Main
  • JayKwellen
    JayKwellen
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    Mayrael wrote: »
    Cries in magblade... Minor maim nerfed, major evasion nerfed, minor vulnerability nerfed. Yup, another awesome patch for magblades. But hey, I got used to it. At least nobody will say I play ez mode.

    As a solely pvp magblade, I pretty much just don't even feel anymore.

    Seeing the patch notes every update is kind of like, well, so I'm a big football fan right? Been a diehard Raider fan since 2001, so I'm well acquainted with disappointment. If you don't know anything about football, every year teams draft college players. The Raiders old owner, Al Davis, usually always drafted the fastest player on the board. Didn't matter if there were better players there, didn't matter if the guy had other serious concerns or issues. Nothing mattered but speed, or occasionally other nebulous "intangibles". The Raiders NFL drafts were literally just memes for the longest time.

    So there you were, intoxicated by misguided optimism after another disappointing season, readying yourself for the draft just knowing that this year was gonna be different. This was the year. Things were gonna turn around for sure this time. And got dangit it was gonna start with the draft!

    So now it's draft day. You're huddled in front of your TV waiting to see who the Raiders pick and...it's another cornerback. You've already got a backfield full of brick-handed olympic track stars who are only moderately competent on the field on their best days, but here's ol' Al adding yet another one, completely neglecting the rest of the team and setting you up for another year of crushing disappointment.

    After so many years do you feel sad? Angry? Nope, you just laugh. Like, hysterical laughter. That moment your brain finally breaks and the rose colored fog dissipates and you remember that 'duh you idiot it can totally get worse, and it totally just did'.

    Then acceptance hits and you settle in for another season of sadness. But it's okay though, because you quickly remember that next year will be better, for real this time.

    That's the PvP experience right there. Welcome to the collective delusion.
    Edited by JayKwellen on September 24, 2020 3:08AM
    Xbox NA - JaeKwellen
    AD PvP
    Trying to main a magcro. This is awful.
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
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    Langeston wrote: »
    LeHarrt91 wrote: »
    If in a trial/ Dungeon etc with a Warden healer, they will grant you both the minor buffs with Enchanted Growth.
    If I played PVE I wouldn't be concerned about it — however I play mostly solo PVP & BGs.

    Even without Minor Intellect my magsorc outperforms my magblade with regard to sustain. Once you tack on the new +20% from Minor Intellect, the difference will be borderline absurd. Magblade sustain is a not insignificant part of why the class is so weak in PVP, IMO.

    Barely anyone used Empowered Ward, maybe now it will become a more unique choice between the 2 morphs for once. I wouldn't say that completely destroys Magblade in comparison, you're giving up 1 of the strongest shields you have (which after the healing nerfs, is pretty important in pvp) for more sustain which seems like a fair trade to me. It's also a group aoe minor intellect, so if you do have a sorc using this in your group, you'll get the buff too, despite not having it in your kit.

    But yeah, most classes need a complete re-evaluation after these changes anyway, but saying that every class should have this or that buff makes it pointless to have in the game in the first place. Why players want homogenization is beyond me. Why not ask for a unique sustain buff outside of the major/minor system if your classes innate sustain is so bad?
    PC Beta - 2200+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • ExistingRug61
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    Langeston wrote: »
    LeHarrt91 wrote: »
    If in a trial/ Dungeon etc with a Warden healer, they will grant you both the minor buffs with Enchanted Growth.
    If I played PVE I wouldn't be concerned about it — however I play mostly solo PVP & BGs.

    Even without Minor Intellect my magsorc outperforms my magblade with regard to sustain. Once you tack on the new +20% from Minor Intellect, the difference will be borderline absurd. Magblade sustain is a not insignificant part of why the class is so weak in PVP, IMO.

    Barely anyone used Empowered Ward, maybe now it will become a more unique choice between the 2 morphs for once. I wouldn't say that completely destroys Magblade in comparison, you're giving up 1 of the strongest shields you have (which after the healing nerfs, is pretty important in pvp) for more sustain which seems like a fair trade to me. It's also a group aoe minor intellect, so if you do have a sorc using this in your group, you'll get the buff too, despite not having it in your kit.

    But yeah, most classes need a complete re-evaluation after these changes anyway, but saying that every class should have this or that buff makes it pointless to have in the game in the first place. Why players want homogenization is beyond me. Why not ask for a unique sustain buff outside of the major/minor system if your classes innate sustain is so bad?

    As a magblade main this topic was an interesting ride for me. I definitely felt the same as some of the previous magblade posters as I was reading and was agreeing, but I think this comment raises a good point and has made me reconsider. Part of why I, and I suspect the previous posters, like magblade is that it is unique and different to the other classes, and asking for homogenization puts this at risk.

    In the end I think I would prefer if either magblade got some more unique sustain improvement as suggested, or if intellect was available via a weapon/guild/world ability (like endurance is) so that you could still get it if you wanted as a solo player but there is a compromise as you have to fit that skill into what is an already cramped bar setup.
  • Langeston
    Langeston
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    JayKwellen wrote: »
    Mayrael wrote: »
    Cries in magblade... Minor maim nerfed, major evasion nerfed, minor vulnerability nerfed. Yup, another awesome patch for magblades. But hey, I got used to it. At least nobody will say I play ez mode.

    As a solely pvp magblade, I pretty much just don't even feel anymore.

    Seeing the patch notes every update is kind of like, well, so I'm a big football fan right? Been a diehard Raider fan since 2001, so I'm well acquainted with disappointment. If you don't know anything about football, every year teams draft college players. The Raiders old owner, Al Davis, usually always drafted the fastest player on the board. Didn't matter if there were better players there, didn't matter if the guy had other serious concerns or issues. Nothing mattered but speed, or occasionally other nebulous "intangibles". The Raiders NFL drafts were literally just memes for the longest time.

    So there you were, intoxicated by misguided optimism after another disappointing season, readying yourself for the draft just knowing that this year was gonna be different. This was the year. Things were gonna turn around for sure this time. And got dangit it was gonna start with the draft!

    So now it's draft day. You're huddled in front of your TV waiting to see who the Raiders pick and...it's another cornerback. You've already got a backfield full of brick-handed olympic track stars who are only moderately competent on the field on their best days, but here's ol' Al adding yet another one, completely neglecting the rest of the team and setting you up for another year of crushing disappointment.

    After so many years do you feel sad? Angry? Nope, you just laugh. Like, hysterical laughter. That moment your brain finally breaks and the rose colored fog dissipates and you remember that 'duh you idiot it can totally get worse, and it totally just did'.

    Then acceptance hits and you settle in for another season of sadness. But it's okay though, because you quickly remember that next year will be better, for real this time.

    That's the PvP experience right there. Welcome to the collective delusion.

    You think you have it bad — I'm from Cleveland. Actually, now that you mention it, being a Cleveland fan is also a great metaphor for being a magblade main. For instance:

    ...and then on March 27, 2000 [patch 1.6.5 - 1.9.8] Art Modell [ZOS] sold 49% of the Browns [gave away many unique NB class abilities] to Baltimore [every other class in the game.]

    I'm sure LeBron moving to FL, then back to Cleveland, then out to LA has a equivalent as well, lol.

    In any case, I feel your pain. I really wish I didn't like the class as much as I do.
  • Sinolai
    Sinolai
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    Endurance already is from fighter's guild rune.
    Intellect is on 3/6 classes, 2 of which can give it to whole team.
    Personally, I like it when some buffs are availiable only to certain classes so they will not be completely removed from end game groups.
  • Jodynn
    Jodynn
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    JayKwellen wrote: »
    Mayrael wrote: »
    Cries in magblade... Minor maim nerfed, major evasion nerfed, minor vulnerability nerfed. Yup, another awesome patch for magblades. But hey, I got used to it. At least nobody will say I play ez mode.

    As a solely pvp magblade, I pretty much just don't even feel anymore.

    Seeing the patch notes every update is kind of like, well, so I'm a big football fan right? Been a diehard Raider fan since 2001, so I'm well acquainted with disappointment. If you don't know anything about football, every year teams draft college players. The Raiders old owner, Al Davis, usually always drafted the fastest player on the board. Didn't matter if there were better players there, didn't matter if the guy had other serious concerns or issues. Nothing mattered but speed, or occasionally other nebulous "intangibles". The Raiders NFL drafts were literally just memes for the longest time.

    So there you were, intoxicated by misguided optimism after another disappointing season, readying yourself for the draft just knowing that this year was gonna be different. This was the year. Things were gonna turn around for sure this time. And got dangit it was gonna start with the draft!

    So now it's draft day. You're huddled in front of your TV waiting to see who the Raiders pick and...it's another cornerback. You've already got a backfield full of brick-handed olympic track stars who are only moderately competent on the field on their best days, but here's ol' Al adding yet another one, completely neglecting the rest of the team and setting you up for another year of crushing disappointment.

    After so many years do you feel sad? Angry? Nope, you just laugh. Like, hysterical laughter. That moment your brain finally breaks and the rose colored fog dissipates and you remember that 'duh you idiot it can totally get worse, and it totally just did'.

    Then acceptance hits and you settle in for another season of sadness. But it's okay though, because you quickly remember that next year will be better, for real this time.

    That's the PvP experience right there. Welcome to the collective delusion.

    I don't like football but I loved reading your story, thanks for sharing.
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
    The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
  • ExistingRug61
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    Sinolai wrote: »
    Endurance already is from fighter's guild rune.
    Intellect is on 3/6 classes, 2 of which can give it to whole team.
    Personally, I like it when some buffs are availiable only to certain classes so they will not be completely removed from end game groups.
    This can still be the case. Like if intellect was available via some generic skill then everyone could still get it if they wanted at the cost of having to slot what may otherwise be a suboptimal skill. So then it may be an option considered for solo or pvp play, but in a group pve environment it would still be optimal to get it from one of this classes, rather than every individual compromising their bar setup, so those classes that can provide it to everyone will still be desired in that context.
  • Jodynn
    Jodynn
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    Sinolai wrote: »
    Endurance already is from fighter's guild rune.
    Intellect is on 3/6 classes, 2 of which can give it to whole team.
    Personally, I like it when some buffs are availiable only to certain classes so they will not be completely removed from end game groups.
    This can still be the case. Like if intellect was available via some generic skill then everyone could still get it if they wanted at the cost of having to slot what may otherwise be a suboptimal skill. So then it may be an option considered for solo or pvp play, but in a group pve environment it would still be optimal to get it from one of this classes, rather than every individual compromising their bar setup, so those classes that can provide it to everyone will still be desired in that context.

    Currently it is very suboptimal skills except warden
    Sorc shield that many use the other morph for 10 seconds
    Templar as a passive from active ability slotted skill, therefore can not share it

    Warden mushrooms for 20 seconds, which is easily kept up if you think about it as a healer, but also not incredibly intuitive to aim a cone without any guidance.

    I'm fine with the way it is, but I feel like it would be nice to have in my toolkit as a MagDK since sustain is terrible without ghastly eye bowl which just isn't viable to use.
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
    The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
  • Zeromaz
    Zeromaz
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    [snip] I want it too

    [edited for baiting]
    Edited by ZOS_Lunar on September 24, 2020 1:08PM
  • HankTwo
    HankTwo
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    Sometimes I wonder if people really want all classes to be simply the same. Perfectly balanced, perfectly boring.
    PC EU
    Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK
  • MincVinyl
    MincVinyl
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    No

    Classes need some unique group buff and for now every class has one except necro which has debuffs instead

    this was the intent originally, but now there is the issue of necro and warden

    Which btw id rather have any of the major buffs that necro or warden has be graced with. Protection, Mending, Defile, Vuln, breach.
  • katorga
    katorga
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    MincVinyl wrote: »
    No

    Classes need some unique group buff and for now every class has one except necro which has debuffs instead

    this was the intent originally, but now there is the issue of necro and warden

    Which btw id rather have any of the major buffs that necro or warden has be graced with. Protection, Mending, Defile, Vuln, breach.

    All of the debuffs have been nerfed heavily, up to 66%. Many of the major buff similarly useless now.

    The new major/minor breach is tremendous though.
  • MincVinyl
    MincVinyl
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    katorga wrote: »
    MincVinyl wrote: »
    No

    Classes need some unique group buff and for now every class has one except necro which has debuffs instead

    this was the intent originally, but now there is the issue of necro and warden

    Which btw id rather have any of the major buffs that necro or warden has be graced with. Protection, Mending, Defile, Vuln, breach.

    All of the debuffs have been nerfed heavily, up to 66%. Many of the major buff similarly useless now.

    The new major/minor breach is tremendous though.

    Well they have been balanced out finally, cuz you know before zos for some reason thought making everything 30% would be balanced by some measure.

    Having access to those buffs so readily is still strong however, and directly on spammables non the less.
  • Sahidom
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    I dont agree. These buffs add some distinction to the classes that offer it; although I do think with the m/M changes they should increase the NB passive to be inline with the buffs rolling out since its the eqyivolent to the minor that other classes have access to.
  • Atherakhia
    Atherakhia
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    No

    Classes need some unique group buff and for now every class has one except necro which has debuffs instead

    I disagree with this completely. While not everything needs to be on every character, having something belong to only a single class results in group stacking which we see today. Take Major Vulnerability for example. Not only does a group need a Necromancer, but they need them in triplicate. Even with the nerf to Major Vuln soon only doing 10% (this is far too large a hit. Major Vuln, Major Prot, and Major Mending need to be stronger than currently on PTS), people are still likely to want to stack Necromancers just for this debuff. This isn't fair to the other classes out there that may do equivilent or better damage but don't have such a vital debuff/buff to offer. It also has the downside of masking very obvious failings of a class. It's aggravating as a Magicka Necromancer trying to justify how terrible your class is when people always bring up how they're one of the most sought after classes in trials atm. If Major Vuln was on ANY other class, Necromancers wouldn't be used. And if perhaps ZOS saw that certain classes were being left out they'd be more open to class improvements instead of making them wait 8 months because their skill morph does NOTHING but they're still getting invites.

    Nothing should be on one class. Maybe not available to all, but certainly not 1. And certainly not something that will boost sustain as every class needs to sustain and not just in large group content.
    Edited by Atherakhia on September 24, 2020 5:33PM
  • ealdwin
    ealdwin
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    Currently on live, there aren't that many sources of each of the recovery buffs.

    First, the primary sources of the Major Recoveries (Fortitude, Endurance, Intellect) are Potions. The only ability-based source of these recoveries is available to DragonKnights through Dragon Blood which provides Major Fortitude with the Green Dragon Blood morph adding a source of Major Endurance.

    Second, the primary sources of the Minor Recoveries are in class/guild abilities. Warden's Enchanted Growth provides Endurance and Intellect to any target healed by the ability. Minor Endurance can also be achieved through Circle of Protection (Fighter's Guild), with the requirement of standing in its area of effect to gain the buff. Minor Intellect can also be provided by Sorcerer's Empowered Ward, which provides the buff to nearby allies on cast. The only source of Minor Fortitude comes from Templar's Restoring Aura, which provides all 3 Minor Buffs to the player while the ability is slotted.

    As it stands on live, there are not many sources of these buffs to begin with. So, who actually gains from these changes. One, both Warden and Sorcerer Healers gain added benefit to Enchanted Growth and Empowered Ward. Two, Stamina Templar DPS (PVE & PVP) gain a buff to back bar recovery through the added benefit to slotting Repentance*. That makes 3 (or 4) specific specs who gain from the changes to the Minor Buffs. Since the sources are all ready rare to begin with, no spec is losing out by not having these buffs, and no spec in general is looking at overpowered gains due to having access to them.

    ( *Magicka Templars don't gain, since Radiant Aura still will not be worth a slot since the changes to Minor Magickasteal don't make the skill more appealing, and with the new arena weapon, Elemental Drain will be more appealing. )

    Now, consider that the primary source of Major Endurance and Major Intellect for all classes (Weapon/Spell Power Potions) are getting a significant buff to providing 40% recovery to Stamina or Magicka, and no class received a nerf to recovery. Since Weapon/Spell Power Potions are pretty much standards for DPS, everyone—regardless of class—will be receiving a boost to recovery.

    There are certainly individual classes that might still need help due to sustain issues, but those should be targeted solutions. I'm not of the opinion that all classes need access to the Minor Recovery Buffs, and think that doing so could very well create situations of too much sustain.
  • Firstmep
    Firstmep
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    Mayrael wrote: »
    Langeston wrote: »
    Seeing as Minor Intellect/Endurance now both provide the same level of boost to sustain (20%) as Major Intellect/Endurance used to, shouldn't they be made available to all classes in some way, shape, or form? That's a pretty strong buff.

    Everyone got an extra 20% through the major versions of those buffs

    Yeah and templars now can have 60% more overall regen. They also have as the only ones minor breach and minor sorcery.

    Cries in magblade... Minor maim nerfed, major evasion nerfed, minor vulnerability nerfed. Yup, another awesome patch for magblades. But hey, I got used to it. At least nobody will say I play ez mode.

    Pierce armor would like to have a word with you.

    You know what? Lets trade, you get minor sorcery, templar gets free 3k pen just cuz u know, nightblade needed a dmg buff XD.

    Also anyone thinking templars are going to double bar radiant aura/repent for 20% more regen, lol, lets get real here folks.
    Edited by Firstmep on September 24, 2020 6:42PM
  • ExistingRug61
    ExistingRug61
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    ealdwin wrote: »
    Currently on live, there aren't that many sources of each of the recovery buffs.

    First, the primary sources of the Major Recoveries (Fortitude, Endurance, Intellect) are Potions. The only ability-based source of these recoveries is available to DragonKnights through Dragon Blood which provides Major Fortitude with the Green Dragon Blood morph adding a source of Major Endurance.

    Second, the primary sources of the Minor Recoveries are in class/guild abilities. Warden's Enchanted Growth provides Endurance and Intellect to any target healed by the ability. Minor Endurance can also be achieved through Circle of Protection (Fighter's Guild), with the requirement of standing in its area of effect to gain the buff. Minor Intellect can also be provided by Sorcerer's Empowered Ward, which provides the buff to nearby allies on cast. The only source of Minor Fortitude comes from Templar's Restoring Aura, which provides all 3 Minor Buffs to the player while the ability is slotted.

    As it stands on live, there are not many sources of these buffs to begin with. So, who actually gains from these changes. One, both Warden and Sorcerer Healers gain added benefit to Enchanted Growth and Empowered Ward. Two, Stamina Templar DPS (PVE & PVP) gain a buff to back bar recovery through the added benefit to slotting Repentance*. That makes 3 (or 4) specific specs who gain from the changes to the Minor Buffs. Since the sources are all ready rare to begin with, no spec is losing out by not having these buffs, and no spec in general is looking at overpowered gains due to having access to them.

    ( *Magicka Templars don't gain, since Radiant Aura still will not be worth a slot since the changes to Minor Magickasteal don't make the skill more appealing, and with the new arena weapon, Elemental Drain will be more appealing. )

    Now, consider that the primary source of Major Endurance and Major Intellect for all classes (Weapon/Spell Power Potions) are getting a significant buff to providing 40% recovery to Stamina or Magicka, and no class received a nerf to recovery. Since Weapon/Spell Power Potions are pretty much standards for DPS, everyone—regardless of class—will be receiving a boost to recovery.

    There are certainly individual classes that might still need help due to sustain issues, but those should be targeted solutions. I'm not of the opinion that all classes need access to the Minor Recovery Buffs, and think that doing so could very well create situations of too much sustain.
    @ealdwin
    You missed one important source of minor endurance, at least in the pvp context, being momentum.
    Momentum is heavily used by most stam builds for pvp already so most stam builds will benefit from the buff to minor endurance. Whereas almost no one has minor intellect. This is one of the main discrepancies to me.
    Edited by ExistingRug61 on September 24, 2020 10:19PM
  • YandereGirlfriend
    YandereGirlfriend
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    You could probably add Minor Intellect to Equilibrium (Mage's Guild) as a class-agnostic means of acquiring the buff.

    You could also add Minor Fortitude to Unstoppable (Heavy Armor) as a welcome buff to a skill that is otherwise a mess.

    You could add Minor Endurance to Shuffle (Medium Armor) to boost another skill that has fallen out of favor.

    And finally, you could add all three of them to Guard (Support) because its current bonuses are a random hodgepodge and the skill is barely used for anything. Adding Fortitude to Mystic Guard makes sense as the survival morph and adding Intellect and Endurance to Stalwart Guard could help differentiate it as the more damage-oriented morph.

    That would add enough class-agnostic means of achieving the buff to accommodate many more builds and playstyles.
  • ealdwin
    ealdwin
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    ealdwin wrote: »
    Currently on live, there aren't that many sources of each of the recovery buffs.

    First, the primary sources of the Major Recoveries (Fortitude, Endurance, Intellect) are Potions. The only ability-based source of these recoveries is available to DragonKnights through Dragon Blood which provides Major Fortitude with the Green Dragon Blood morph adding a source of Major Endurance.

    Second, the primary sources of the Minor Recoveries are in class/guild abilities. Warden's Enchanted Growth provides Endurance and Intellect to any target healed by the ability. Minor Endurance can also be achieved through Circle of Protection (Fighter's Guild), with the requirement of standing in its area of effect to gain the buff. Minor Intellect can also be provided by Sorcerer's Empowered Ward, which provides the buff to nearby allies on cast. The only source of Minor Fortitude comes from Templar's Restoring Aura, which provides all 3 Minor Buffs to the player while the ability is slotted.

    As it stands on live, there are not many sources of these buffs to begin with. So, who actually gains from these changes. One, both Warden and Sorcerer Healers gain added benefit to Enchanted Growth and Empowered Ward. Two, Stamina Templar DPS (PVE & PVP) gain a buff to back bar recovery through the added benefit to slotting Repentance*. That makes 3 (or 4) specific specs who gain from the changes to the Minor Buffs. Since the sources are all ready rare to begin with, no spec is losing out by not having these buffs, and no spec in general is looking at overpowered gains due to having access to them.

    ( *Magicka Templars don't gain, since Radiant Aura still will not be worth a slot since the changes to Minor Magickasteal don't make the skill more appealing, and with the new arena weapon, Elemental Drain will be more appealing. )

    Now, consider that the primary source of Major Endurance and Major Intellect for all classes (Weapon/Spell Power Potions) are getting a significant buff to providing 40% recovery to Stamina or Magicka, and no class received a nerf to recovery. Since Weapon/Spell Power Potions are pretty much standards for DPS, everyone—regardless of class—will be receiving a boost to recovery.

    There are certainly individual classes that might still need help due to sustain issues, but those should be targeted solutions. I'm not of the opinion that all classes need access to the Minor Recovery Buffs, and think that doing so could very well create situations of too much sustain.
    @ealdwin
    You missed one important source of minor endurance, at least in the pvp context, being momentum.
    Momentum is heavily used by most stam builds for pvp already so most stam builds will benefit from the buff to minor endurance. Whereas almost no one has minor intellect. This is one of the main discrepancies to me.

    Thanks for pointing that out. I was going off of the list of buffs and debuffs on UESP, and it appears that they were missing that one.

    That does change a few things, and adds another item to the list of hits Magicka will take this patch, and perhaps a source of Minor Intellect could help mitigate the discrepancies between Magicka and Stamina in PVP. I still don't think that every class needs within their class-kit a source of Minor Intellect, but perhaps there should be a generic morph. The only suggestion I can come up with would be to rework Entropy (again). Minor Intellect could be added to the base skill. Or, the base skill could once again provide a source of Major Sorcery, and then Degeneration could provide Minor Intellect.
    Edited by ealdwin on September 25, 2020 3:05AM
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