Dear Zos if you want more tanks

Grandchamp1989

Why would you gut our buffs and debuffs to near obscurity? 2/3rd effeciancy on Protection and Maim lost?
Most Elite Adds already one shot tanks on Vet DLC doing 120.000+ damage at its base..

Newer tanks in particular need these, and all tanks can use these when your server is so laggy we get delay on our blocks.. So we get hit with something we clearly blocked, but now it's GG.

Major Vitality: Decreased to 16%, down from 30%.
Major Evasion: Decreased to 20%, down from 25%
Minor Protection: Decreased to 5%, down from 8%.
Major Protection: Decreased to 10%, down from 30%.
Minor Maim: Decreased to 5%, down from 15%.
Major Maim: Decreased to 10%, down from 25%.
Minor Vulnerability: Decreased to 5%, down from 8%.
Major Vulnerability: Decreased to 10%, down from 25%

I think maybe this is too much.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

Wow. That's... a huge and sudden nerf to damage reduction across the board. It sounds like another case of developers shooting from the hip without aiming, finding out that they overdid it and needing to backtrack. If this makes it to live, we will see lots of tanks unexpectedly dying to one-shots even in normal mode when they keep ignoring mechanics and standing in red like they used to be able to. I also expect a lot of blame to be sent in the general direction of my healers.

In the long run, it might be a good thing, though. Tanks can be built to be almost ridiculously sturdy and self sufficient right now, and healers have started becoming obsolete. The haphazardly built healing tanks I play will probably be rubbish in vet dungeons after this update, but my healers might finally become useful again.

Grandchamp1989

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

Wow. That's... a huge and sudden nerf to damage reduction across the board. It sounds like another case of developers shooting from the hip without aiming, finding out that they overdid it and needing to backtrack. If this makes it to live, we will see lots of tanks unexpectedly dying to one-shots even in normal mode when they keep ignoring mechanics and standing in red like they used to be able to. I also expect a lot of blame to be sent in the general direction of my healers.

In the long run, it might be a good thing, though. Tanks can be built to be almost ridiculously sturdy and self sufficient right now, and healers have started becoming obsolete. The haphazardly built healing tanks I play will probably be rubbish in vet dungeons after this update, but my healers might finally become useful again.

I theory, yes. But in reality you'll see a lot more Tanks being One-Shotted and most importantly they made so many of our ultimates utterly useless. 200 ulti for a short 10% major protection? lol... Nope.

If they wanted to keep Healers more relevant they should nerf self healing across the board and buff restoration staff line healing output.

All they did with this was just to reinforce more one-shot kills on Tanks in end-gamge content which healers can't do anything about.
Major protection could leave you surive otherwise "GG" attacks but with very low health, actually giving your healers a chance to get you back into the fight. Now... Not so much.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

I actually agree with you. I even said that I expect tanks to die to one-shots a lot more if this makes it to live, and it would require most players to completely rethink how they tank. I just argued that healers could need a return to, you know, healing, not just spamming buffs, debuffs and synergies. We don't even need any buffs to healing power, really. The heals on my dedicated healer builds are a sad combination of a) very strong and b) very seldom needed in dungeons.

(edit: typo from auto-emote)

aeowulf

The one shot mechanics need toning down anyway. One would have to assume that if they are changing mechanics to increase boss damage by 20%, there would be a review of all boss damage and adjustments made where necessary...

Same with all major changes like this.

Ultimately this probably a good thing, it makes ensuring maim and these other buffs/debuts are applied is a lot less important.

UntilValhalla13

Honestly, I'd be curious to know what attacks specially you're referring to that are hitting 120k on a blocking tank. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. XD

Grandchamp1989

aeowulf wrote: »

The one shot mechanics need toning down anyway. One would have to assume that if they are changing mechanics to increase boss damage by 20%, there would be a review of all boss damage and adjustments made where necessary...

Same with all major changes like this.

Ultimately this probably a good thing, it makes ensuring maim and these other buffs/debuts are applied is a lot less important.

That would be lovely but I'm not holding my breath lol.

Grandchamp1989

UntilValhalla13 wrote: »

Honestly, I'd be curious to know what attacks specially you're referring to that are hitting 120k on a blocking tank. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. XD

I made a thread analysing base damage on elite adds in Vet DLC.

You can use that for reference:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/543733/how-much-damage-some-vet-dlc-elite-adds-deal-and-mitigation-factors#latest

As stated 120k base damage (before mitigation factors).

Actually 120k is low end more current elite adds are more in line with 145k base damage.

Tanks Protection and Maim are vital if you for whatever reason miss a single block

Sarannah

Honestly, I don't mind the nerfs. But they should keep tanks in mind. Combined with the previous tanking set nerfs, and now these protection nerfs, they need to do something for tanks.
ZOS wants players to be less tanky in PvP, but all the while they hit PvE the hardest. Now if they were to buff something, which only tanks have access to, it would be great. So it can't be CP, skillspoints, or gear. Maybe give the health stat some protection to it, since it is basically only tanks using the health stat. Every 10 health points = 2% damage reduction, maybe? (so 12% max)

PS: Remove one-shots from the game. One shots make tanks useless, as a dps with 1 hp would be just as good as a tank with 100k hp.

Donny_Vito

On my DK tank, about the only one I use is Major Vitality and Mending (forgot about that one). I have a NecroTank for only one reason, Major Vulnerability, and I'm sure others are that way as well. This should weed out some of those tanks.

aeowulf

I would tend to disagree though with the general theme, as tanking needs to be made more enjoyable to attract people to that role (that’s why we play games right? For enjoyment)

The reduction of usefulness in these shifts the emphasis of importance away from major buffs/debufs and that means one less thing for a tank to micro manage. Stats will become more useful, and we will likely start seeing tanks with more health again, and less damage.

Though I over analyse a lot of stuff (blame work...) I don’t know if ZOS thinks about fun much when it comes to tanking in ESO. The last ‘fun’ tank was the sap tank, and that went years ago.

zvavi

I will be honest with you man, all these changes make me want to finally level a warden tank, he/she (probably he) will be rocking a frost/lightning setup with charged ice frontbar (probably Breton). While my frost/resto nb will be getting a new stick to play with. All these buffs/debuffs are less important to me since I usually don't run them anyway.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

aeowulf wrote: »

...
I don’t know if ZOS thinks about fun much when it comes to tanking in ESO. The last ‘fun’ tank was the sap tank, and that went years ago.

I remember that kind of tank build, and I miss it. The play style can be resurrected, sort of, only without most of the group healing, by donning "selfish" sapping proc sets like Leeching Plate and Bahraha's Curse, but it's much less flexible and rather less effective as it narrows your choice of gear, and it's all based on a fixed amount of proc damage/healing that doesn't scale with your own effort or skill level. Also, it's kind of "no-brains tanking". You just wear the sets, try to draw aggro from everything, taunt the main baddies, and do your best to dodge the one-shots in all the more recent DLC dungeons.

josiahva

The funniest part of this is that in the patch notes they BUFFED all the DPS related minors and majors.

gatekeeper13

I dont think they have a clue of what they are doing anymore.... They have come such a long way of unbalancing the game they dont know what to do to re-balance it. Their constant nerfs and buffs in everything make no sense and after every patch they revert them or make things even worse.

ESO is the only game were tanks are as tanky as ....a DD that roll-dodges all the time and somehow they decided to nerf them even more. This ruins all the fun and removes the feeling of being "tanky". Why be a tank if nothing separates you from the other roles?

You will actually not need to be a tank to tank anymore. You will just slot taunt and Caltrops and roll-dodge at mechanics and you will be good to go.

josiahva

While these are certainly nerfs...I really don't think they will lead to tanks suddenly dying like flies...in most content short of vet trials many tanks don't even use these buffs very often anyway...major protection? Really? Where do you get that? Meditate? Pirate Skeleton? Lady Thorn? Maybe a few other sources, all on a fairly short timer...for minor protection, the only skill I used that provided it was circle of protection, and I didn't use that one often. Major evasion I used to use all the time when it increased dodge chance...now that its garbage(for a tank anyway, still somewhat useful for DDs) I havent used it in forever. The maim and vulnerability hurts though....just doesn't hurt me as a tank, it hurts the DPS.

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO

Imo this doesn't really jive with the damage trend from vet DLC content. Kyne's Aegis hardmodes all bosses can one-shot from an unblocked LA. Unless group damage is extraordinary, many tanks will have to be guarded + front bar all resists and self heals for final phase Falgravn. I know I couldn't get through it without minor maim, major/minor protection and major vitality.

From Cloudrest on there has been a dramatic increase in the needed survivability for PvE tanks.

FrancisCrawford

zvavi wrote: »

I will be honest with you man, all these changes make me want to finally level a warden tank, he/she (probably he) will be rocking a frost/lightning setup with charged ice frontbar (probably Breton). While my frost/resto nb will be getting a new stick to play with. All these buffs/debuffs are less important to me since I usually don't run them anyway.

Why warden? What sort of build are you thinking of?

zvavi

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

I will be honest with you man, all these changes make me want to finally level a warden tank, he/she (probably he) will be rocking a frost/lightning setup with charged ice frontbar (probably Breton). While my frost/resto nb will be getting a new stick to play with. All these buffs/debuffs are less important to me since I usually don't run them anyway.

Why warden? What sort of build are you thinking of?

Warden because he will be able to get the new ice passive crit dmg best, since would be on front bar most time, and because of the very high chilled from gripping shards, with charged front bar (lightning enchantment) and wall of elements crusher backbar (infused) i would probably be able to keep 100% uptime on the new crit damage taken, and on off balance easily. Sets are irrelevant because it depends on what the group needs,
Skills frontbar:
Taunt (either clench or undaunted taunt, probably the stamina morph), heal (polarwind/Arctic blast), shield (bone surge), flex spot n1, flex spot n2, flex ultimate(barrier/permafrost/temporal guard/meteor).
Skills backbar:
Wall of elements, gripping shards, elemental drain, flex spot n3, flex spot n4, war horn

Flex spots should be full of things like:
Altar, balance/expansive frost cloak/ice fortress, shimmering shield, silver leash/frozen gate, purge, blue Betty, growing swarm.

Phaedryn

I though it was going to be bad too.

Then we actually tried it. My regular group got on and ran vDM. It wasn't nearly that bad and for most of the run, it wasn't even noticeable.

Don't focus on the numbers, get on PTS and actually try it.

Merforum

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Why would you gut our buffs and debuffs to near obscurity? 2/3rd effeciancy on Protection and Maim lost?
Most Elite Adds already one shot tanks on Vet DLC doing 120.000+ damage at its base..

Newer tanks in particular need these, and all tanks can use these when your server is so laggy we get delay on our blocks.. So we get hit with something we clearly blocked, but now it's GG.

Major Vitality: Decreased to 16%, down from 30%.
Major Evasion: Decreased to 20%, down from 25%
Minor Protection: Decreased to 5%, down from 8%.
Major Protection: Decreased to 10%, down from 30%.
Minor Maim: Decreased to 5%, down from 15%.
Major Maim: Decreased to 10%, down from 25%.
Minor Vulnerability: Decreased to 5%, down from 8%.
Major Vulnerability: Decreased to 10%, down from 25%

I think this is so dumb to gut PVE Tanks like this

Yeah, Devs need to stop reading/listening to the PVP whiners about how they can't kill players fast enough. These changes and 100% due to PVP and once again will have huge negative effect on PVE, especially tanks. Some of these are so bad you will need the major and minor buff just to get what the minor buff alone did by itself.

At the same time they have actually INCREASED the the damage dealing stats

Minor Expedition: Increased to 15%, up from 10%.
Major Savagery and Prophecy: Increased to 12%, up from 10%.
Minor Breach: Increased to 2974, up from 1320.
Major Breach: Increased to 5948, up from 5280.
Major Breach now affects both Physical and Spell Resistance equally.
Minor Resolve: Increased to 2974, up from 1320.
Major Resolve: Increased to 5948, up from 5280.
Minor Fortitude/Endurance/Intellect: Increased to 20%, up from 10%
Major Fortitude/Endurance/Intellect: Increased to 40%, up from 20%.
Minor Courage: Increased to 215, up from 129.
Major Courage: Increased to 430, up from 258.
Major Force: Increased to 20%, up from 15%.
[NEW] Minor Brittle: Increases the target’s Critical Damage taken by 10%
Major Brittle: Increases the target’s Critical Damage taken by 20%. Not yet sourced.

Once again all these changes help gankers/PVPer and do very little for PVE. Pretty soon healers and tanks won't exists just roll dodging DDs and PVPers. They should definitely separate these values and sets and other stuff between PVE and PVP. The 2 are so different there will never be 'balance' whatever that is but just like they give increase health etc in PVP they should also be able to have separate buff values in PVP PVE. That would solve all problems.

YandereGirlfriend

Frustrated with the Brittle changes as they way it's implemented allows the support roles to yet again swoop in and poach the only reason for using a Frost Staff.

They ought to have made it scale with Spell Damage.

zaria

And nobody talk about the crit changes effect on Khajiit, who struggles to get trough.

Change it back to crit chance.

zvavi

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Frustrated with the Brittle changes as they way it's implemented allows the support roles to yet again swoop in and poach the only reason for using a Frost Staff.

They ought to have made it scale with Spell Damage.

Scale with spell dmg means it will go on healer instead of tank... They should have just made it self buff.

YandereGirlfriend

zvavi wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Frustrated with the Brittle changes as they way it's implemented allows the support roles to yet again swoop in and poach the only reason for using a Frost Staff.

They ought to have made it scale with Spell Damage.

Scale with spell dmg means it will go on healer instead of tank... They should have just made it self buff.

That's probably a good call.

The elephant in the room is the OP Flame Staff passive that neither of the lesser staves can compete with.

Can't fathom how someone at ZOS looked at those passives and concluded "Oh yeah, this is balanced."

FrancisCrawford

zvavi wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

I will be honest with you man, all these changes make me want to finally level a warden tank, he/she (probably he) will be rocking a frost/lightning setup with charged ice frontbar (probably Breton). While my frost/resto nb will be getting a new stick to play with. All these buffs/debuffs are less important to me since I usually don't run them anyway.

Why warden? What sort of build are you thinking of?

Warden because he will be able to get the new ice passive crit dmg best, since would be on front bar most time, and because of the very high chilled from gripping shards, with charged front bar (lightning enchantment) and wall of elements crusher backbar (infused) i would probably be able to keep 100% uptime on the new crit damage taken, and on off balance easily. Sets are irrelevant because it depends on what the group needs,
Skills frontbar:
Taunt (either clench or undaunted taunt, probably the stamina morph), heal (polarwind/Arctic blast), shield (bone surge), flex spot n1, flex spot n2, flex ultimate(barrier/permafrost/temporal guard/meteor).
Skills backbar:
Wall of elements, gripping shards, elemental drain, flex spot n3, flex spot n4, war horn

Flex spots should be full of things like:
Altar, balance/expansive frost cloak/ice fortress, shimmering shield, silver leash/frozen gate, purge, blue Betty, growing swarm.

Got it. Thanks.

One thing -- you mentioned off-balance but not birds. What am I missing?

Playboy_Shrek

yes. PVE tanking will be absolutely ***, especially on anything not warden/DK, nightblade tank is going to get wrecked. it will be far too difficult to tank, and I mean you will probably have to get one healing set and one shielding set or something. and every tank will probably run the skeleton monster set now.

Majkiy

Well, as a DK tank I don't really have any of these buffs anyway. Well, Minor Maim from talons and Major from Lady Thorn, other than that.. nothing really changes. My playstyle consists of roll dodges anyway, rolling heavy attacks, I got a CP for that too, I block rarely or when I absolutely have to. So stop whining and adapt, it's not too bad.

Grandchamp1989

Majkiy wrote: »

Well, as a DK tank I don't really have any of these buffs anyway. Well, Minor Maim from talons and Major from Lady Thorn, other than that.. nothing really changes. My playstyle consists of roll dodges anyway, rolling heavy attacks, I got a CP for that too, I block rarely or when I absolutely have to. So stop whining and adapt, it's not too bad.

Hey that's awesome, as long as it isn't affecting Majkiy too much that's what's important.
Thx for your condescending input!

For the record it'll also affect your Green Dragon Blood Vitality and Dragonknight Standard defile.
Not that you care, you're too cool for school and is isn't affecting your class and playstyle too much:)

LashanW

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Major Evasion: Decreased to 20%, down from 25%
Minor Protection: Decreased to 5%, down from 8%.
Major Protection: Decreased to 10%, down from 30%.
Minor Maim: Decreased to 5%, down from 15%.
Major Maim: Decreased to 10%, down from 25%.

I'm curious how vHoF hm last boss will be during the execution stage, with the above nerfs. DDs will have to even more dps to complete it.

zvavi

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

I will be honest with you man, all these changes make me want to finally level a warden tank, he/she (probably he) will be rocking a frost/lightning setup with charged ice frontbar (probably Breton). While my frost/resto nb will be getting a new stick to play with. All these buffs/debuffs are less important to me since I usually don't run them anyway.

Why warden? What sort of build are you thinking of?

Warden because he will be able to get the new ice passive crit dmg best, since would be on front bar most time, and because of the very high chilled from gripping shards, with charged front bar (lightning enchantment) and wall of elements crusher backbar (infused) i would probably be able to keep 100% uptime on the new crit damage taken, and on off balance easily. Sets are irrelevant because it depends on what the group needs,
Skills frontbar:
Taunt (either clench or undaunted taunt, probably the stamina morph), heal (polarwind/Arctic blast), shield (bone surge), flex spot n1, flex spot n2, flex ultimate(barrier/permafrost/temporal guard/meteor).
Skills backbar:
Wall of elements, gripping shards, elemental drain, flex spot n3, flex spot n4, war horn

Flex spots should be full of things like:
Altar, balance/expansive frost cloak/ice fortress, shimmering shield, silver leash/frozen gate, purge, blue Betty, growing swarm.

Got it. Thanks.

One thing -- you mentioned off-balance but not birds. What am I missing?

Lightning wall puts concussed enemies off balance (which will proc from your wall and lightning enchantment)