Vateshran Bow?

kalunte

i assume it is quite a deal to "buff snipe" through an Arena weapon without boosting even more long-range pvp snipers but well; the actua vateshran bow doesnt fit the role at all. i can already imagine quite a fair amount of nbs going to melee-snipe-gank randoms even harder than before too (doblesnipe+caluurion xD)

you definatly need another idea that could grant some pve dps increase without buffing gankbuild.

making it instant with a 15 or 20% dmg reduction, 20% cost reduction, range changed to standards 28m, could fit the role i think (because it allows more light attacks too).

last but not least, the 7m condition is at the opposite of "Long Shot" passive from bow skill line, which is a bad design.

CaffeinatedMayhem

.... NB's already going more melee with the point-blank buff to spectral bow. ZOS is buffing the melee NB skills, which is good honestly. The kicker is, these melee builds should NOT have access to Cloak. You don't get to do power damage at close range AND completely get out of any damage done to you.

I've already seen quite a few people who are exceptionally "skilled" at pulling cloak JUST before your attacks land, even in extreme lag.

jaws343

That bow is going to be strong on non-gank bow builds as well. I already see a way I can use it to enhance a bow build I've had shelved for a while.

Recapitated

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

.... NB's already going more melee with the point-blank buff to spectral bow. ZOS is buffing the melee NB skills, which is good honestly. The kicker is, these melee builds should NOT have access to Cloak. You don't get to do power damage at close range AND completely get out of any damage done to you.

I've already seen quite a few people who are exceptionally "skilled" at pulling cloak JUST before your attacks land, even in extreme lag.

That seems a bit drastic. Maybe if you uncloak or are uncloaked before <2 seconds your next cloak is more expensive, so that once you come out of invisibility in melee range you better get the kill or your chance at escape is reduced.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Recapitated wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

.... NB's already going more melee with the point-blank buff to spectral bow. ZOS is buffing the melee NB skills, which is good honestly. The kicker is, these melee builds should NOT have access to Cloak. You don't get to do power damage at close range AND completely get out of any damage done to you.

I've already seen quite a few people who are exceptionally "skilled" at pulling cloak JUST before your attacks land, even in extreme lag.

That seems a bit drastic. Maybe if you uncloak or are uncloaked before <2 seconds your next cloak is more expensive, so that once you come out of invisibility in melee range you better get the kill or your chance at escape is reduced.

I'll give you a hint: Cheat Engine still works with ESO afaik. And there are other scripts in circulation that allow players to use NPC abilities (think the cross-class guards in cyro).

I don't support outright cheating no matter how mad you are at ZOS. I just get upset that people report very obvious cheaters for years, and nothing is done. ZOS does not care if you cheat, in fact, go right ahead is what their moderation actions appear to say.

SodanTok

Until about patch ago asylum bow enabled far higher burst from double the range for price of having to use 1 more skill.

33% damage done buff at 7m puts snipe at about crystal frag proc damage level (assuming equal stats). Also long Shot passive offers about 2% damage increase at 7m.

Arwyr

Not gonna lie, i was pretty hyped about finally getting an arena weapon for snipe until i sa× that 7m condition -.-

Alidel

It's quite stupid to give buff to a ranged weapon and play-style that can be only get experienced in melee, ngl

kalunte

After a few tests on dummy i can tell that Vateshran bow is a total waste considering a bow rotation in pve.

arena weapons should grant a dmg buff to a basic pve rotation equal or on top of a monster set (it is what all others are doing for bow) but this one does the exact opposite forcing you to go melee because of long range passive.

1st: you dont get 33% dmg buff to snipe since you're losing aprox 8% dmg from long range passive (which gives +12% dmg from 20m and further, at 7m i assume it is something like 4%) so the buff to snipe is about 25%.
2nd: you're mostly losing 8% dmg on all other bow skills including light attacks that is to say: poison injection, arrow spray, volley and ultimate which is a huge loss overall since snipe is only a spamable i.e. : a skill you want to use on spare time in your rotation after buffs and dots.
this passive alone if you want to use this bow in this state is a counter to bow itself, whatever way you look at it.


the actual state of this bow is just like what the momentum 2h is going to be: maybe toxic in pvp because of higher potential burst on niche builds, a dps loss in pve (up to 10%, tested and compared with a black rose prison bow at 18m range).


you'd rather not create such a weapon and have ppl higher chances to loot other vateshran weapon that can have a use or even just a purpose at some point.

Ragnaroek93

kalunte wrote: »

making it instant with a 15 or 20% dmg reduction, 20% cost reduction, range changed to standards 28m, could fit the role i think (because it allows more light attacks too).

That's what I was hoping for. Bow has been in a very akward spot for years, the toolkit is extremely incomplete while the passives punish you for using non bow skills or for using it not as a main weapon. In the end people (or pretty much only Nbs) use it as a utility and buff bar only or for snipe ganking.

olsborg

I was also hoping for something like an instant cast snipe, but with reduced dmg and cost.

MashmalloMan

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

making it instant with a 15 or 20% dmg reduction, 20% cost reduction, range changed to standards 28m, could fit the role i think (because it allows more light attacks too).

That's what I was hoping for. Bow has been in a very akward spot for years, the toolkit is extremely incomplete while the passives punish you for using non bow skills or for using it not as a main weapon. In the end people (or pretty much only Nbs) use it as a utility and buff bar only or for snipe ganking.

To be fair. Most weapon skill passives behave that way, unfortunately Bow's are so strong in the 1 direction while weaker in the universal category, other skill lines are a bit more of an even split which as you said, makes it feel punishing to use non bow skills with a bow as your main bar. I'd love to see that ironed out along with the 10/20% pen bonuses below, changed to flat values.

Destruction staff gives 10% pen, heavy attack bonus and magicka return only using staff attacks, but 8% single or aoe damage and +100% status effect chance for everything.

Bow gives +25%/12% dmg for only bow attacks, but +5% crit.

DW gives +15/20% dmg for only DW attacks, but +80 weapon damage and 10% crit or 20% pen or 6% dmg or a single target bleed.

2H is the most universal weapon imo, but most of it is utility based. 50% damage done from auto attacks as aoe, but 10% direct damage to your next attack after a heavy attack and +30% stamina regen for 10s after a kill (any attack, not just 2H attack to proc).

DW and 2H also have 10% more base light attack damage AND +250-500 base weapon damage depending on traits and before multipliers.

SidraWillowsky

kalunte wrote: »

After a few tests on dummy i can tell that Vateshran bow is a total waste considering a bow rotation in pve.

arena weapons should grant a dmg buff to a basic pve rotation equal or on top of a monster set (it is what all others are doing for bow) but this one does the exact opposite forcing you to go melee because of long range passive.

1st: you dont get 33% dmg buff to snipe since you're losing aprox 8% dmg from long range passive (which gives +12% dmg from 20m and further, at 7m i assume it is something like 4%) so the buff to snipe is about 25%.
2nd: you're mostly losing 8% dmg on all other bow skills including light attacks that is to say: poison injection, arrow spray, volley and ultimate which is a huge loss overall since snipe is only a spamable i.e. : a skill you want to use on spare time in your rotation after buffs and dots.
this passive alone if you want to use this bow in this state is a counter to bow itself, whatever way you look at it.


the actual state of this bow is just like what the momentum 2h is going to be: maybe toxic in pvp because of higher potential burst on niche builds, a dps loss in pve (up to 10%, tested and compared with a black rose prison bow at 18m range).


you'd rather not create such a weapon and have ppl higher chances to loot other vateshran weapon that can have a use or even just a purpose at some point.

I dunno; I got up to 84k on the trial dummy on a bow/bow stamden using the bow on my front bar and snipe as my spammable. The name of the game becomes "get as many Lethal Arrow casts in as you can", and the new insta-cast sub assault synergizes nicely with this. Like you and others have mentioned, however, it goes against what bows were made for and the some of the buff is negated by the loss of the bow passives.

If it goes live as-is, I'll probably convert my barely-used stamden into a bow/bow build using the new arena bow on the front bar and the Frankenstein melee bow build I've concocted in the PTS, just because it's something totally new for me (I'm terrible with bows). It's still nonsensical though.

Ratzkifal

7m is not a lot and this is certainly not a PvP weapon because unlike Uppercut you can get interrupted in your cast time which puts the ability on a cooldown. If they made it immune to interrupts then it would be alright, but still weird.

Solariken

Making Snipe instant would be a much better function. That would open up some really fun playstyles.

kalunte

@SidraWillowsky can you try that same build but with blackrose prison bow at 18m range instead of the vateshran on frontbar (obviously slotting magnum shot instead of something else, just keep in mind that if you barswap too fast after magnum shot you wont get the dot) and tell me if it's better or worse for you?

kalunte

meanwhile, vateshran 2h gets a flat perma +190wd if you never heavy attack with a 2hander..

LOL xD

SodanTok

The only relevant comparison of power of this bow is dps difference in melee distance because thats where fights happen 90% of the time in trials.
This bow is on right path given the direction of combat balance where they just give up on balancing anything but stam vs mag and therefore bow, being weaker stamina weapon, always drags behind because of range disadvantages put in place as part of mag balance.
Unfortunately it doesnt hit the mark completely just yet power wise

SidraWillowsky

kalunte wrote: »

@SidraWillowsky can you try that same build but with blackrose prison bow at 18m range instead of the vateshran on frontbar (obviously slotting magnum shot instead of something else, just keep in mind that if you barswap too fast after magnum shot you wont get the dot) and tell me if it's better or worse for you?

Yeah, for sure! I'll try it later today

BangX

33% is pretty big, bow melee ganking is a thing, snipe + surprise attack, instant 1 shot.

RandomKodiak

Did quite a bit of testing tonight and found that my normal parsing build (Slimecraw helm, Balorg's shoulders and Tzogvin's main hand/Maelstrom back bar) with the extra crit does just about the same as using the new bow in range (New bow main/Maelstrom back, Tzogvin's helm and shoulders). In fact in five parses each the build I use now came out ahead with crit luck 3/2. All the new bow does in PvE is level the field for bows in trials. I do not have a NB and don't PvP so can't speak as to that. For PvE this bow is just what we needed. Oh stamsorc redguard if anyone is interested. Blackrose at distance still outperforms both other setups by at least 5k.

RandomKodiak

*Edit old parse set up was at about 20m range sorry for any confusion.

kalunte

RandomKodiak wrote: »

. Blackrose at distance still outperforms both other setups by at least 5k.

that's the thing. it's easy to run a few step back to land 1magnum shot while it's definatly harder to stick at 7m or less to a boss/npc and the result is a 5k dps loss anyway which is a thing.

I dont see ZoS combat team put the buff to 70% or more in order to close the gap between blackrose's and vateshran, neither want to.

they'll have to do some foked up maths if they want it to be viable with that 7m limit or just erase it until they find something worth looting.

starkerealm

Solariken wrote: »

Making Snipe instant would be a much better function. That would open up some really fun playstyles.

I was going to question this... then I realized that I don't think I've used Snipe (except to accelerate bow leveling), in over four years.

Pink_Pixie

Mainly a bow/bow warden myself and I can't see there is any use for this bow. I tend to prefer to stay at the back, like a bow user should and although I've not tested this. I still feel snipe is mostly a boring skill, being far to slow. Where as I can use quicker abilities to get the similar damage (Obviously due to global it's not the exact same). I had kind of wished they'd do something to help bow/bow builds to be more competitive, but as it is, that will never happen.

Bucky_13

starkerealm wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Making Snipe instant would be a much better function. That would open up some really fun playstyles.

I was going to question this... then I realized that I don't think I've used Snipe (except to accelerate bow leveling), in over four years.

I'm a sniper in PvP and I think this would be a bad idea. An instant snipe would be insane for builds where you spec for it. The cast time is a noticeable disadvantage in PvP and without it the skill would be way too good, even if you lose a monster or 5 piece bonus from it.

kalunte

well, making it instant would come alongside with a dmg reduction and probably a cost reduction and range reduction. this would also help with desync.

saying that i'm thinking about some travel time tweaking too and everything would make the bow gameplay more interesting overall.

kalunte

6.2.3 is missing the shot completely. Snipe is doing less than 10% dmg in a regular pve rotation. so if it is to make it fit that stuborn (stu**d) idea of melee bow you should give it a 50or 60% dmg buff for it to be relevant compared to a monster set. but doing that you would end seeing melee snipespamers and the entire point would be missed again because having a snipe doing so much dmg would negate the use of any dot.

So yes, this is ZoS, this idea of melee snipe is unefficient and tweaking it to deal 33% dmg at 3m range? really? why not 1?

considering the movement issues this game already have it's just disrespectfull.

please, delete your idea of this bow and turn its droprate to 0% until you come up with a decent one that fits to bow playstyle AND maths (or at least one of the two), not only to someone fancy deciding stuff up there.

RandomKodiak

kalunte wrote: »

6.2.3 is missing the shot completely. Snipe is doing less than 10% dmg in a regular pve rotation. so if it is to make it fit that stuborn (stu**d) idea of melee bow you should give it a 50or 60% dmg buff for it to be relevant compared to a monster set. but doing that you would end seeing melee snipespamers and the entire point would be missed again because having a snipe doing so much dmg would negate the use of any dot.

So yes, this is ZoS, this idea of melee snipe is unefficient and tweaking it to deal 33% dmg at 3m range? really? why not 1?

considering the movement issues this game already have it's just disrespectfull.

please, delete your idea of this bow and turn its droprate to 0% until you come up with a decent one that fits to bow playstyle AND maths (or at least one of the two), not only to someone fancy deciding stuff up there.

I am not trying to start an argument but what rotation are you using that your lethal arrow is only doing 10%? On my bow/bow stamsorc LA is usually between 25-40% of damage on a boss fight. In trials I usually pull between 35-50k can do as much as 72k live and 84k on pts last week with dummy. So am just really curious as to where we are differing so.

RaptorRodeoGod

Did the really change the range for 33% damage to 3 meters from 7 meters, or was that a typo?

Don't standard melee skills have a 5 meter range?

RandomKodiak

Also most boss trial fights everyone is grouped on bosses butt or opposite tank and nearly melee range so this bow on boss fights is a boost to those fights. If my math is right at 10m with the latest change it will be a 23% (approx) damage buf to LA and in PvE that is about the max range you want to be out from boss so you ar always in front of healers.