Thews of the Harbinger

Scritchel

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

I really think ZOS is trying to kill solo play with this update.

How is one tank who just holds block killing solo play? Just streak away. There's your counter. They cant kill you so why even bother.

There are many other issues that should be looked at in pvp....

Theignson

In the midst of a chaotic battle, what is the sign you are hitting someone who is blocking with Thews? Is there a visual or audio sign?

My health dropping rapidly is not a sign in the midst of chaos. If I'm attacking one guy and he's just blocking and standing there and my health is dropping that should obviously be apparent. But if you are fighting in a huge battle how do you actually know Thews is hitting?

Scritchel

Because it's useless discussion like this that get things pointlessly nerfed while ignoring other issues. You claimed its ruining solo play yet from what I see is it was you vs him and no one else. And just because you cant kill someone who's whole purpose is to stand there and hold block, you want it nerfed.

That set has been practically unused since it was released when IC came out.

Scritchel

Theignson wrote: »

In the midst of a chaotic battle, what is the sign you are hitting someone who is blocking with Thews? Is there a visual or audio sign?

My health dropping rapidly is not a sign in the midst of chaos. If I'm attacking one guy and he's just blocking and standing there and my health is dropping that should obviously be apparent. But if you are fighting in a huge battle how do you actually know Thews is hitting?

There is a visual red glow on you every proc and a sound queue

CaffeinatedMayhem

Scritchel wrote: »

That set has been practically unused since it was released when IC came out.

Well it's not unused now. Maybe play in PvP a bit more. And take your anger out there.

Edit: btw, I've seen at least 5 tank builds using Thews in the past 2 weeks. And that's with only a little bit of time in PvP.
Maybe take a cue from the "seeing the set more an more" line.

universal_wrath

Scritchel wrote: »

Because it's useless discussion like this that get things pointlessly nerfed while ignoring other issues. You claimed its ruining solo play yet from what I see is it was you vs him and no one else. And just because you cant kill someone who's whole purpose is to stand there and hold block, you want it nerfed.

That set has been practically unused since it was released when IC came out.

You can run however you want, but in bgs if you keep running away, then you are losing. Magdks last patch meta was elfbane/grather/overwhelming. Now they were harberng instead of elfbane and basicaly hold block and talons until you die. You stop hiting them, their dots will kill you. You hit them, habirnger will kill you. You try to run away, they leap/fossilize. Other classes have their own builds as well and this is only one var of the newely interduced proc(dot) meta.

Sergykid

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

yeah it's pretty broken

20 ticks of average 1.5k damage. Over 10 seconds you got hit by a 3k dot. Doesn't seem that op to me, there are other proc sets that hit harder, also you can stop the "dot" damage any time. And any class has access to unlockable CCs, these builds are just target dummies

3k dot doesn't seem OP to you? Not a single set comes close to that..

well yes 30k pvp damage from a single source is very much, but i mean not op not because the numbers, but because you are in control of it by stopping attacking, slowing it down by not hitting blockable attacks, or CCing the user

lets see - CC, well Thew wills till attack you if the user is CC'd.
Not all classes have strong DoTs or AoE's in a PvP build
So stamDk's... are good at countering this.

how does he hold block while stunned or feared? all classes do not have blockable attacks only.

this set may be strong if built specifically for it, but this is available for any set tho. However this set is easier counterable than others

CaffeinatedMayhem

Sergykid wrote: »

how does he hold block while stunned or feared? all classes do not have blockable attacks only.

this set may be strong if built specifically for it, but this is available for any set tho. However this set is easier counterable than others

Stun is only once every 21 seconds, streak is fixed now. Fear? Only if I were a vampire, and I'm not. So until he BREAKS OUT... which as a tank is really easy, sure I can hit him all I want for 2 seconds. AS long as I have all my attacks coordinated perfectly and a charged ult.

As a sorc, I do not use Wall of Element, or Lightning flood in a PvP build for obvious reasons. Let me switch those in once a fight starts and I realize what my opponent is wearing... oh. Haunting curse works, but it's one hit at 4 and 8 seconds, and ti doesn't stack. I've started slotting ice comet, but even then, the ground AoE is fairle small, not eough to make someone move off a flag, and not enough damage even with 75 Thaumatuirge to kill a health tank.

So, exactly how is a high single target damage pvp build (bc that's what magsorc is) supposed to kill a health tank with thews? Where the majority of our attacks are blocked? Oh right, just give up.

Sergykid

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

how does he hold block while stunned or feared? all classes do not have blockable attacks only.

this set may be strong if built specifically for it, but this is available for any set tho. However this set is easier counterable than others

Stun is only once every 21 seconds, streak is fixed now. Fear? Only if I were a vampire, and I'm not. So until he BREAKS OUT... which as a tank is really easy, sure I can hit him all I want for 2 seconds. AS long as I have all my attacks coordinated perfectly and a charged ult.

As a sorc, I do not use Wall of Element, or Lightning flood in a PvP build for obvious reasons. Let me switch those in once a fight starts and I realize what my opponent is wearing... oh. Haunting curse works, but it's one hit at 4 and 8 seconds, and ti doesn't stack. I've started slotting ice comet, but even then, the ground AoE is fairle small, not eough to make someone move off a flag, and not enough damage even with 75 Thaumatuirge to kill a health tank.

So, exactly how is a high single target damage pvp build (bc that's what magsorc is) supposed to kill a health tank with thews? Where the majority of our attacks are blocked? Oh right, just give up.

there is the fighters guild skill but it costs stam if u r fine with it, or psijic guild bubble spell, and i think mages guild knockup trap also works, dunno.
But first, 21 seconds? afaik cc imm is 7-8 seconds.

You can curse and heavy attack with the pet, or i dunno whatever spells u use. Also u can't expect a build to work against any kind of opponent. Single target magsorc usually is to fry potatoes i think.

as u sound, a nb that cloaks will give u the same problems, u'll just miss everything

Waffennacht

Can thews proc thews?

ecru

precambria wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

yeah it's pretty broken

The name you blanked out might as well be your own, all you had to do was stop attacking them

i'm not sure if you noticed but people don't run around with a sign over their head that says exactly what sets they're running

Ishtharo

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

how does he hold block while stunned or feared? all classes do not have blockable attacks only.

this set may be strong if built specifically for it, but this is available for any set tho. However this set is easier counterable than others

Stun is only once every 21 seconds, streak is fixed now. Fear? Only if I were a vampire, and I'm not. So until he BREAKS OUT... which as a tank is really easy, sure I can hit him all I want for 2 seconds. AS long as I have all my attacks coordinated perfectly and a charged ult.

As a sorc, I do not use Wall of Element, or Lightning flood in a PvP build for obvious reasons. Let me switch those in once a fight starts and I realize what my opponent is wearing... oh. Haunting curse works, but it's one hit at 4 and 8 seconds, and ti doesn't stack. I've started slotting ice comet, but even then, the ground AoE is fairle small, not eough to make someone move off a flag, and not enough damage even with 75 Thaumatuirge to kill a health tank.

So, exactly how is a high single target damage pvp build (bc that's what magsorc is) supposed to kill a health tank with thews? Where the majority of our attacks are blocked? Oh right, just give up.

Stun immunity lasts 6 to 7 seconds, not 21 seconds. Streak through them, it's unblockable. You have one of the best on demand stuns, gap closers and kite tools available to you.

ecru

21 second stun immunity timer sounds amazing tbh, the game would be much more enjoyable if that was the case.

Major_Lag

Just want to point out that if the target is using unstoppable potions immediately following the CC immunity from a previous stun, they can legitimately get close to 20 seconds of continuous CC immunity in that way.

In theory you can go well over 20 seconds when using 3x potion duration enchants on jewelry, but I seriously doubt that would be actually viable in practice on those kinds of builds.

finehair

The counter play of this literally "stop hitting yourself stop hitting yourself"

If there is a guy with 35-50k holding block in the middle of a chaotic pvp fight and if you focus on him you will get killed, even if he isn't using harbinger.
Ever thought how people complete dungeons in this game? There is this tank dude with high hp and defenses whose job is literally getting hit by the bad guys while his team murders said bad guys.

If you are focusing a blocking player wit 35k+ hp your fate will be the same as those adds in dungeons so don't complain about it.

Harbinger builds literally have no damage unless you hit them, just go around them kill their squishy friends first then start focusing the turtle roleplayer with heavy attacks to drain their stamina, stuns-fears etc to drop their block then burst them when they are not blocking.

Or the easy way, just siege the guy who plays goliath harbinger with 90k hp. If he acts like a keep wall treat him as such. Play dirty it's Cyrodiil

Jeremy

L_Nici wrote: »

Harbinger pops up in BG now too. Mostly MagDks pair it with Grothdaar and Unfathomable Darkness. That basically makes them able to kill while only attacking once with a light attack and then hold block.
I mean not really a threat if you don't hit them, but try to explain that to your team. Also in any form of capture the flag thats pretty messed up, they just stand on the flag the whole game and that flag is untouchable unless you outnumber the enemies on the flag.

This might be what I'm encountering. There is some kind of Dragon Knight build right now that is taking over battlegrounds.

Waffennacht

Ive faced a few. Other health tanks seem to fair pretty good against them

Jeremy

ecru wrote: »

precambria wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

yeah it's pretty broken

The name you blanked out might as well be your own, all you had to do was stop attacking them

i'm not sure if you noticed but people don't run around with a sign over their head that says exactly what sets they're running

Good point. It's not like people know ahead of time "Oh, I better ignore this guy because of the sets he's wearing".

Not to mention Dragon Knights are hard to ignore anyway since they have such effective CC.

MurderMostFoul

Jeremy wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

precambria wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

yeah it's pretty broken

The name you blanked out might as well be your own, all you had to do was stop attacking them

i'm not sure if you noticed but people don't run around with a sign over their head that says exactly what sets they're running

Good point. It's not like people know ahead of time "Oh, I better ignore this guy because of the sets he's wearing".

Not to mention Dragon Knights are hard to ignore anyway since they have such effective CC.

The dude who just stands there holding block is an easy ignore.

PandaPalace

I was gonna take a IC district flag and just seen 1 person on it, didn't notice his hp and casted caltrops, streaked in and the moment I hit rapid strikes I insta died. It's broken and no real way to counter unless u pre-made zerg.

UrbanMonk

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

yeah it's pretty broken

20 ticks of average 1.5k damage. Over 10 seconds you got hit by a 3k dot. Doesn't seem that op to me, there are other proc sets that hit harder, also you can stop the "dot" damage any time. And any class has access to unlockable CCs, these builds are just target dummies

3k dot doesn't seem OP to you? Not a single set comes close to that..

well yes 30k pvp damage from a single source is very much, but i mean not op not because the numbers, but because you are in control of it by stopping attacking, slowing it down by not hitting blockable attacks, or CCing the user

lets see - CC, well Thew wills till attack you if the user is CC'd.
Not all classes have strong DoTs or AoE's in a PvP build
So stamDk's... are good at countering this.

Unless StamDK uses corrosive with all dots, then somehow these tanks do go down. Dizzy you cant use.. leap you cant...

jaws343

Faced a Hews tank last night. Until I died, there was no way to know I was facing one. And on a Sorc, Light attack, Curse, light attack, FP, light attack FP, in a few seconds is 10 sources of damage. Add in the frag proc I got, and I was 100-0 before I even realized what was happening.

Waffennacht

Ive ran into a few now, another tanky build is their weakspot. They'll run outta stamp lomg before you die

Edit: in no CP that is. Probably wont run out in CP

universal_wrath

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

precambria wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

yeah it's pretty broken

The name you blanked out might as well be your own, all you had to do was stop attacking them

i'm not sure if you noticed but people don't run around with a sign over their head that says exactly what sets they're running

Good point. It's not like people know ahead of time "Oh, I better ignore this guy because of the sets he's wearing".

Not to mention Dragon Knights are hard to ignore anyway since they have such effective CC.

The dude who just stands there holding block is an easy ignore.

If that was the case, people would not complain about. Those people just hold block, they use every CC possible with least effort. Talons, fossilze..etc. you simply can't ignore them.

UrbanMonk wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

yeah it's pretty broken

20 ticks of average 1.5k damage. Over 10 seconds you got hit by a 3k dot. Doesn't seem that op to me, there are other proc sets that hit harder, also you can stop the "dot" damage any time. And any class has access to unlockable CCs, these builds are just target dummies

3k dot doesn't seem OP to you? Not a single set comes close to that..

well yes 30k pvp damage from a single source is very much, but i mean not op not because the numbers, but because you are in control of it by stopping attacking, slowing it down by not hitting blockable attacks, or CCing the user

lets see - CC, well Thew wills till attack you if the user is CC'd.
Not all classes have strong DoTs or AoE's in a PvP build
So stamDk's... are good at countering this.

Unless StamDK uses corrosive with all dots, then somehow these tanks do go down. Dizzy you cant use.. leap you cant...

Fun fact, corrosive does not work on dots anymore. There is no counter to these type of builds as far as I know.

Sleep724

universal_wrath wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

precambria wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

yeah it's pretty broken

The name you blanked out might as well be your own, all you had to do was stop attacking them

i'm not sure if you noticed but people don't run around with a sign over their head that says exactly what sets they're running

Good point. It's not like people know ahead of time "Oh, I better ignore this guy because of the sets he's wearing".

Not to mention Dragon Knights are hard to ignore anyway since they have such effective CC.

The dude who just stands there holding block is an easy ignore.

If that was the case, people would not complain about. Those people just hold block, they use every CC possible with least effort. Talons, fossilze..etc. you simply can't ignore them.

UrbanMonk wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

yeah it's pretty broken

20 ticks of average 1.5k damage. Over 10 seconds you got hit by a 3k dot. Doesn't seem that op to me, there are other proc sets that hit harder, also you can stop the "dot" damage any time. And any class has access to unlockable CCs, these builds are just target dummies

3k dot doesn't seem OP to you? Not a single set comes close to that..

well yes 30k pvp damage from a single source is very much, but i mean not op not because the numbers, but because you are in control of it by stopping attacking, slowing it down by not hitting blockable attacks, or CCing the user

lets see - CC, well Thew wills till attack you if the user is CC'd.
Not all classes have strong DoTs or AoE's in a PvP build
So stamDk's... are good at countering this.

Unless StamDK uses corrosive with all dots, then somehow these tanks do go down. Dizzy you cant use.. leap you cant...

Fun fact, corrosive does not work on dots anymore. There is no counter to these type of builds as far as I know.

Sure there is. Only takes 2 good players to take one down. I threw this set on because I wanted to see what all the fuss is about.
I’ve only had pug Templar’s and a few gank blades either kill themselves on the shield or damage their own health enough to get into execute range. Lost to a mag Dk because of his dots, grothdar, and overwhelming. Faced multiple “top tier” pvp’ers and they just whittle down your health and stamina or use unblockable cc till your dead. Mag Sorcs just stop attacking and shield up and you don’t have enough damage to take them down. Any groups larger than 3 you may be able to take one of them down who doesn’t realize what’s happening in all the chaos but if you drop block for a second it’s all over.
The set is fun to use for sure but it’s certainly not some op meme set that’s any different than all the other proc sets that combined can actually one shot you. I’ve only ran into one other player who was using it and I immediately realized what the player was doing and so I just told the other 2 people in my group to attack when I used fossilize and on the second cast of it we took him down.

MurderMostFoul

I could see this build working for chaos ball and zone control modes in BGs. But that's purely taking advantage of the objective. As far as true pvp power goes, they can't kill you unless you attack them, and they don't offer much utility to their team.

Maybe if someone paired it with Battalion Defender, made some kind of Thews-stam healer-tank, that might be a problem.

EmEm_Oh

Dirt_Rooster wrote: »

Thing about harbinger is that in order to make it good enough to be viable on its own, you have to take a big hit to your own damage. I haven't had a fight against a harbinger user that didn't end up just being a fight where I hit him till I have to heal, then just keep hitting them until they run out of resources and die. Same as any tank/stall build. The pace and control of the fight is inherently in your favor when you face someone like that.

Unless your stunned/slowed. It's a very formidable set right now.

EmEm_Oh

Scritchel wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

I really think ZOS is trying to kill solo play with this update.

How is one tank who just holds block killing solo play? Just streak away. There's your counter. They cant kill you so why even bother.

There are many other issues that should be looked at in pvp....

Can't streak now due to [snip] rule.

[edited for inappropriate content]

universal_wrath

Sleep724 wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

precambria wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

yeah it's pretty broken

The name you blanked out might as well be your own, all you had to do was stop attacking them

i'm not sure if you noticed but people don't run around with a sign over their head that says exactly what sets they're running

Good point. It's not like people know ahead of time "Oh, I better ignore this guy because of the sets he's wearing".

Not to mention Dragon Knights are hard to ignore anyway since they have such effective CC.

The dude who just stands there holding block is an easy ignore.

If that was the case, people would not complain about. Those people just hold block, they use every CC possible with least effort. Talons, fossilze..etc. you simply can't ignore them.

UrbanMonk wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

yeah it's pretty broken

20 ticks of average 1.5k damage. Over 10 seconds you got hit by a 3k dot. Doesn't seem that op to me, there are other proc sets that hit harder, also you can stop the "dot" damage any time. And any class has access to unlockable CCs, these builds are just target dummies

3k dot doesn't seem OP to you? Not a single set comes close to that..

well yes 30k pvp damage from a single source is very much, but i mean not op not because the numbers, but because you are in control of it by stopping attacking, slowing it down by not hitting blockable attacks, or CCing the user

lets see - CC, well Thew wills till attack you if the user is CC'd.
Not all classes have strong DoTs or AoE's in a PvP build
So stamDk's... are good at countering this.

Unless StamDK uses corrosive with all dots, then somehow these tanks do go down. Dizzy you cant use.. leap you cant...

Fun fact, corrosive does not work on dots anymore. There is no counter to these type of builds as far as I know.

Sure there is. Only takes 2 good players to take one down. I threw this set on because I wanted to see what all the fuss is about.
I’ve only had pug Templar’s and a few gank blades either kill themselves on the shield or damage their own health enough to get into execute range. Lost to a mag Dk because of his dots, grothdar, and overwhelming. Faced multiple “top tier” pvp’ers and they just whittle down your health and stamina or use unblockable cc till your dead. Mag Sorcs just stop attacking and shield up and you don’t have enough damage to take them down. Any groups larger than 3 you may be able to take one of them down who doesn’t realize what’s happening in all the chaos but if you drop block for a second it’s all over.
The set is fun to use for sure but it’s certainly not some op meme set that’s any different than all the other proc sets that combined can actually one shot you. I’ve only ran into one other player who was using it and I immediately realized what the player was doing and so I just told the other 2 people in my group to attack when I used fossilize and on the second cast of it we took him down.

That magDK with grather and overwhelming is another broken build, abd they only got stronger with malacath ring. That being said, playing with burst set up is just outright bad against harbringer. I killed myself multiple before I realized what was happening. Then trying to fight agaunst groups with someone wuth that particular build us hard not to hit them. For whatever reason, hurricane is direct damage, not sure why, so everytime I get close to harberinger player i basically proc the set as long as I keep hurricane up 😅

TheValkyn

You’re right. It is OP and it is unbalanced.

This is 1m damage from only blocking in a deathmatch bg.

(CDN is down I think)