its painful to pug dungeons

Mettaricana

Really wish they'd buff the ever loving hell out of story and zone content to force crap players to atleast become functional individuals scale enemies and mechanics up to atleast dungeon difficulty so they can't stand in stupid spaming one attack

Arunei

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

If its on how to deal with mechanics etc. sure. You can show/teach mechanics in a dungeon run I always offer to do so if someone doesnt obviously know them and/or asks. But you cant give someone a decent dps setup and teach them a rotation in the middle of a dungeon. Its also very easy to look stuff up. While you can do that afterwards it really does nothing to improve the absolutely miserable experience you are gonna have as a tank in the present run because someone didnt prepare to do their role. And that is assuming that the person that gets carried by their other group members even cares, because quite a few dont and are just along for the ride and hope that no one minds them not contributing anything to a group effort.

It's not 'very easy' to look stuff up when you also have a majority of people who want to zoom through dungeons as fast as possible without any consideration for the rest of their group. And looking stuff up, most of the time, doesn't really mean much for a lot of people anyway, because you can read about something or watch it as much as you want, but 9 times out of 10, it's actually doing the mechanic (and yes, wiping to it a few times) that lets you really get a feel for it and understand it.

And yes, you're correct that you can't go into finer details in the middle of a dungeon, like giving them a good working set (unless you're a crafter and the whole group is patient enough while you go craft them some good placeholder gear, but that's the exception and not the norm), but you can suggest other things, like asking what skills they use and if any should be swapped out, reminding them to have a food or drink buff (and offering them some of your own if you have any you can spare), etc.

I get what you're saying, that you can't do everything for a person in the middle of a dungeon, and you're right about that. There's a time and place for everything, but my main thing is that you don't just automatically kick a person because they're doing 'subpar' DPS. That's not the answer, it just breeds animosity and anger and spite. What you do, is actually try to help a person out, giving them advice, pointing them in the right direction, not just "lol u suck kbai". People get so up in arms when people apparently don't know what they're doing in a dungeon, normal OR vet, but so few people are willing to actually teach newer or otherwise less experienced players. They expect everyone else to do it, but it's just like the Bystander Effect; when everyone expects someone else to do something, then who's the one who's actually going to do it?

bharathitman wrote: »

Would you tell the same thing to someone who bought a Dark Souls game or Sekkiro and then complained that it's too tough? Unless you take time to understand the game you definitely wouldn't be able to progress a lot.

The difference is those games are marketed as being very very difficult, that's why people buy them, because they either enjoy challenging stuff or THINK it sounds fun and then they get super salty when they can't really get anywhere. People who buy those games and then complain they're too hard are most likely the ones who buy them not knowing they're supposed to be that difficult. ESO isn't marketed as a game that's super hard.

Bizlipkick wrote: »

I never understood the "they must be a basement dweller, that's why they are good" argument. I am an above average player (definitely not too tier) and work full time (military), married with a 13 year old, work out. etc. etc. and play games well. And I am definitely not the exception.

Uh, I thiiiiink that person meant people in their player homes, aka playing by themselves a lot because they're practicing their rotations and stuff on training dummies.

FlopsyPrince

The problem with trying to prepare ahead of time is that you must study a whole bunch of dungeons before being ready for whatever random one you get.

I do not know the mechanics of most of the harder ones, even normal, so I avoid doing randoms now. Kind of annoying, but no way exists to learn them well without a huge learning curve!

mairwen85

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

The problem with trying to prepare ahead of time is that you must study a whole bunch of dungeons before being ready for whatever random one you get.

I do not know the mechanics of most of the harder ones, even normal, so I avoid doing randoms now. Kind of annoying, but no way exists to learn them well without a huge learning curve!

Truth is that mechanics are repeated throughout dungeons, apart from the gimmicky things like grapples and skeevertons, most mech is variation of mech already encountered. It's sequences in a different order, or with additional effects. Things like blocking on time, bashing/interrupting a certain telegraph, break free, freeing allies from effect x, synergise y, read onscreen prompt, none of that requires hours of research, just time spent playing the game and having an inkling of positional awareness. Often elite mobs and side bosses will even have watered down versions of big boss mech to give an indication of what's ahead too.

Everest_Lionheart

mairwen85 wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

The problem with trying to prepare ahead of time is that you must study a whole bunch of dungeons before being ready for whatever random one you get.

I do not know the mechanics of most of the harder ones, even normal, so I avoid doing randoms now. Kind of annoying, but no way exists to learn them well without a huge learning curve!

Truth is that mechanics are repeated throughout dungeons, apart from the gimmicky things like grapples and skeevertons, most mech is variation of mech already encountered. It's sequences in a different order, or with additional effects. Things like blocking on time, bashing/interrupting a certain telegraph, break free, freeing allies from effect x, synergise y, read onscreen prompt, none of that requires hours of research, just time spent playing the game and having an inkling of positional awareness. Often elite mobs and side bosses will even have watered down versions of big boss mech to give an indication of what's ahead too.

I’ve been soloing through base game dungeons on normal and a few on vet to get better at mechanics. When you are alone you have no choice but to block or bash certain mechanics. You also have to learn how to avoid the 1 shots particularly on the final bosses. A lot of times I can hack and slash my way all the way to the end and have to call in a friend to tank the last boss for me where I still have to deal with the random mechanics but the one shots that a tank should be dealing with in the first place are now off my plate. Like yesterday’s pledge in Spindleclutch 1 I made it all the way to the end and tried the boss about half a dozen times before getting a buddy to tank it. Not having to deal with every 1 shot mechanic allows me to gauge the fight better. I do the same in other dungeons as well like Fungal grotto, Elden hollow, CoA, etc. Push myself as far as I can solo before picking up a guild mate to complete. For them it’s 5-10min work and a free monster helm.

But yes even some of those most basic mechs turn up later in DLC.

Start with normal and see how fast you can run and how efficient you can burn the pulls then move to vet which will test your sustain and survivability a bit more. That’s your bridge to harder content right there hidden in plain sight. Better real world practice than beating up a dummy.

newtinmpls

Geekgirl wrote: »

Please offer the help. Some of us need it and would be very grateful.

Me too.

mairwen85

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

The problem with trying to prepare ahead of time is that you must study a whole bunch of dungeons before being ready for whatever random one you get.

I do not know the mechanics of most of the harder ones, even normal, so I avoid doing randoms now. Kind of annoying, but no way exists to learn them well without a huge learning curve!

Truth is that mechanics are repeated throughout dungeons, apart from the gimmicky things like grapples and skeevertons, most mech is variation of mech already encountered. It's sequences in a different order, or with additional effects. Things like blocking on time, bashing/interrupting a certain telegraph, break free, freeing allies from effect x, synergise y, read onscreen prompt, none of that requires hours of research, just time spent playing the game and having an inkling of positional awareness. Often elite mobs and side bosses will even have watered down versions of big boss mech to give an indication of what's ahead too.

I’ve been soloing through base game dungeons on normal and a few on vet to get better at mechanics. When you are alone you have no choice but to block or bash certain mechanics. You also have to learn how to avoid the 1 shots particularly on the final bosses. A lot of times I can hack and slash my way all the way to the end and have to call in a friend to tank the last boss for me where I still have to deal with the random mechanics but the one shots that a tank should be dealing with in the first place are now off my plate. Like yesterday’s pledge in Spindleclutch 1 I made it all the way to the end and tried the boss about half a dozen times before getting a buddy to tank it. Not having to deal with every 1 shot mechanic allows me to gauge the fight better. I do the same in other dungeons as well like Fungal grotto, Elden hollow, CoA, etc. Push myself as far as I can solo before picking up a guild mate to complete. For them it’s 5-10min work and a free monster helm.

But yes even some of those most basic mechs turn up later in DLC.

Start with normal and see how fast you can run and how efficient you can burn the pulls then move to vet which will test your sustain and survivability a bit more. That’s your bridge to harder content right there hidden in plain sight. Better real world practice than beating up a dummy.

Both are important. Knowing how to maximise damage output and being efficient at it, as well as a good understanding of mechanics--both are important to combat in general. But on my main point, I think we're saying essentially the same thing. If we view dungeons as a content progression ladder, we can separate it into tiers and very easily see how we start off simple and gradually see the introduction of mechanics which are reused. For each step further they may become more densely packed and take on a new semblance, but they are just variations of the basics as I describe in my previous post. The problem is how ZOS makes them all available without that ladder, maybe? I mean from 10-50 the base game normals begin to unlock, then we have base vet, there is some CP lockout for DLC for a while, but overall, once your level is high enough, the dungeon is open to you, and you are able to queue or walk into it whenever. One suggestion I've seen floated a few times is to only unlock dungeons on the basis of what has been cleared rather than player level. I can see some sense in that, but I don't agree it's the best way to address this, especially as completion of later content depends heavily on group composition and co-ordination, familiarity between players, etc. I think it may be better to simply add a rank/tier in the dungeon finder for each dungeon and assign players a dungeon rank based on content completed, like a score, so players can determine for themselves if it's within reason for them to attempt it earlier than any other (could even put in the finder a message showing dungeon ranking vs player rank as a visual indication).

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

Geekgirl wrote: »

...
It can be really intimidating asking for help.

Please don't assume that I am CP810, struggling with DPS (or healing or tanking) and understand what it is I need to do to be better but just refuse to try. Odds are I think I am doing fine, because what I am doing had worked perfectly right up until now.

Please offer the help. Some of us need it and would be very grateful.

Find a nice guild. If you had been on PC-EU, I would have invited you to one that is very, very welcoming to "veteran n00bs" like you. I'm sure there are many such guilds, because I see a lot of nice and friendly people in the game. A couple of years ago, I was a veteran n00b myself, having spent years doing nothing but easy solo quests and the occasional normal dungeon as a more or less irrelevant healer. I had a a great time learning things with guild friends, laughing off the sad wipes and the horrific fails as we split our time between going our merry clueless way and learning by mistakes, and having wonderful help by experienced and patient people in the guild. I enjoyed that a lot, and I try my best to pay it forward.

Sanguinor2

Arunei wrote: »

It's not 'very easy' to look stuff up when you also have a majority of people who want to zoom through dungeons as fast as possible without any consideration for the rest of their group. And looking stuff up, most of the time, doesn't really mean much for a lot of people anyway, because you can read about something or watch it as much as you want, but 9 times out of 10, it's actually doing the mechanic (and yes, wiping to it a few times) that lets you really get a feel for it and understand it.

And yes, you're correct that you can't go into finer details in the middle of a dungeon, like giving them a good working set (unless you're a crafter and the whole group is patient enough while you go craft them some good placeholder gear, but that's the exception and not the norm), but you can suggest other things, like asking what skills they use and if any should be swapped out, reminding them to have a food or drink buff (and offering them some of your own if you have any you can spare), etc.

I get what you're saying, that you can't do everything for a person in the middle of a dungeon, and you're right about that. There's a time and place for everything, but my main thing is that you don't just automatically kick a person because they're doing 'subpar' DPS. That's not the answer, it just breeds animosity and anger and spite. What you do, is actually try to help a person out, giving them advice, pointing them in the right direction, not just "lol u suck kbai". People get so up in arms when people apparently don't know what they're doing in a dungeon, normal OR vet, but so few people are willing to actually teach newer or otherwise less experienced players. They expect everyone else to do it, but it's just like the Bystander Effect; when everyone expects someone else to do something, then who's the one who's actually going to do it?

The part about looking stuff up was more meant to be about how dpsing actually works since the game doesnt really explain that well. I agree on what you wrote about actually experiencing mechanics tho.

Towards kicking, I very rarely make a vote about kicking someone myself and in normals I never do since in normals I can just swap to a dps setup with taunt and do the dungeon by myself if need be. Also normal is where the new players or the inexperienced players are supposed to be so cant really expect them to have high dps. If I pug vet as tank I mostly just leave if I see its not gonna work out.
Here is probably where we are gonna disagree tho: Imo if someone queues into veteran content as DD but does absolutely abyssmal dps, and Im not talking about people that dont run the latest trial meta gear or heavy attack builds or whatever offmeta builds one can think off, but rather Im talking about the people that queue into veteran content and only light attack spam or only use one spammable and no other abilities or light attacks and run around with 35k health or more, they deserve a kick. Just like a fake tank they are not doing the role they signed up for if they get outdpsed by a tank in a group support setup and have no business being in veteran content.

RobDaCool

I've only done one vet dungeon, Selene's Web, for a monster helm. I did watch a YouTube video explaining the fights though so I wouldn't be completely useless.

Magdalina

Geekgirl wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

What make you think cap cp 10k dps is even willing to listen at all?

They simply just want to do whatever they been doing and get carried.

::raises hand::

I have played since beta.
I have run exactly one trial.
I have not run all of the original content on Vet yet.
I have spent my time in game doing quests and exploring and doing overland achievements.


Now I am in a place where I would like to see end game content and PVP. People see CP810 and assume I know what I am doing. People see CP810 and laugh when you say "this is new" or "I don't know how to do that."

Rolling a "new" character doesn't matter because as soon as I hit 50 I get hit as CP810 and no one is interested in teaching me anything now.

I have been told that I should have "paid attention" while playing. Only what I played, PVE overland, requires so little in the way of skill development that it absolutely does not equal what you will run into in trials and PVP.

I have been told that my >insert class here< is "easy to play" and I shouldn't have so much trouble.

I have read a lot. But that also doesn't mean I will be any good at applying the practical use of things.

Lastly...

It can be really intimidating asking for help.

Please don't assume that I am CP810, struggling with DPS (or healing or tanking) and understand what it is I need to do to be better but just refuse to try. Odds are I think I am doing fine, because what I am doing had worked perfectly right up until now.

Please offer the help. Some of us need it and would be very grateful.

Wanted to comment on this because it really caught my eye. Your situation is the exact reason why I feel ESO overland is too easy, there is no (obvious) learning curve up until you poke harder content and get rekt. But issues go beyond that...

I'm one of those (far from god tier or anything, but defiitely above average by current ESO standards) people who pug vet dlc dungeons and who don't mind spending several hours wiping with a sub-par team as long as we're communicating and making progress, I just enjoy the challenge and satisafction that comes from doing it with less experienced people, there's great satisfaction in showing them the ropes and watching them get better at it. I'll tell you the mechs (I love telling mechs!), I'll craft you the gear, I'll tell you about skills and rotations, I'll give you repair kits and soulgems - just as long as you're willing to listen and learn.

HOWEVER, there is a catch, and the catch is that, unfortunately, a lot of people really have no interest in learning and getting better at the game. And that on its own is fine, issues arise when they enter veteran content, do 5k dps then swear at you when you tell them how they can (and should) do better. Or just flatout ignore you. You tell them the mechanic they're dying to, and they go die to it again. And again. And again. Then blame tank/healer/dps and drop group. Honestly, when you get enough of those you lose most of the desire to offer help. These days I generally only speak up after we start having troubles (even when it's obvious we're gonna from them from the start) and I think very long and hard before offering build advice as it's often met with hostility no matter how nice you put it. I know a lot of other people also feel that way, so in the end the part of the playerbase that enjoys teaching slowly gets discouraged from it by the 'DON'T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY MY GAME' part of the population, and the part of the population actually wanting to learn gets stuck with 'l33t' players who don't want to teach anyone anything.

That aside...if you're PC NA and still looking for some advices, hit me up (@Magdalina777), I'm definitely no leaderboard #1 but I do know some things, and I do enjoy sharing them.

idk

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

The problem with trying to prepare ahead of time is that you must study a whole bunch of dungeons before being ready for whatever random one you get.

I do not know the mechanics of most of the harder ones, even normal, so I avoid doing randoms now. Kind of annoying, but no way exists to learn them well without a huge learning curve!

Join a guild and run with them. Considering how so many that use the GF to get a dungeon group are inexperienced a pre-formed group will lead to a smoother run and guildmates tend to be more understanding with friends learning a new dungeon or a new role.

zvavi

Geekgirl wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

What make you think cap cp 10k dps is even willing to listen at all?

They simply just want to do whatever they been doing and get carried.

::raises hand::

I have played since beta.
I have run exactly one trial.
I have not run all of the original content on Vet yet.
I have spent my time in game doing quests and exploring and doing overland achievements.


Now I am in a place where I would like to see end game content and PVP. People see CP810 and assume I know what I am doing. People see CP810 and laugh when you say "this is new" or "I don't know how to do that."

Rolling a "new" character doesn't matter because as soon as I hit 50 I get hit as CP810 and no one is interested in teaching me anything now.

I have been told that I should have "paid attention" while playing. Only what I played, PVE overland, requires so little in the way of skill development that it absolutely does not equal what you will run into in trials and PVP.

I have been told that my >insert class here< is "easy to play" and I shouldn't have so much trouble.

I have read a lot. But that also doesn't mean I will be any good at applying the practical use of things.

Lastly...

It can be really intimidating asking for help.

Please don't assume that I am CP810, struggling with DPS (or healing or tanking) and understand what it is I need to do to be better but just refuse to try. Odds are I think I am doing fine, because what I am doing had worked perfectly right up until now.

Please offer the help. Some of us need it and would be very grateful.

@Geekgirl As Magdalina offered help in PC NA, I will cover PC EU (the PvE side at least) @zvavi , a lot of veteran players will be happy to help you, but you just have to ask (I generally refrain from doing that without being asked, I tried teaching a random once after I seen him hardcasting frags in vDLC dungeon, he listened a bit but in the end he decided not to get used to a rotation, it felt really discouraging to try to help someone who didn't even want to learn).

Eifleber

Usually I actually like pugs.

I am in no hurry, I don't know every dungeon mechanic by heart myself (~CP620 now), especially not the hardest DLC's - also because it's far more efficient to just get the monster set on vet and then (optionally) grind gear on normal mode.
Admitted I don't so the vet mode of DLC dailies a lot as it's so time consuming though.

Always happy if there's some veteran in my team that doesn't mind leading us on.


In the occasional DLC dungeon I do happen to know quite well (like Frostvault) I don't mind explaining people mechanics either.

❆

Gythral

Then dont do it

It really is very simple!

Rungar

eso dungeons are not really designed with pugging in mind. You can do them and ive tanked and healed hundreds but there are are a few problems with the design.

1) no one either knows the mechanics or simply cant remember them because there are so many
2) the dungeons are linear meaning everyone wants to go as fast as possible to the end
3) like powered players are not accounted for so the groupfinder is a gamble especially with harder dungeons
4) Many players just dont understand the combat system. Its a bad system.
5) Players have low tolerance for failure in pugs which leads to player cycling

The system works for trials because you are expected to progress and there is organization in place to explain things properly. It doesnt work for the dungeons though and it was a massive mistake to design it that way.

ForzaRammer

Geekgirl wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

What make you think cap cp 10k dps is even willing to listen at all?

They simply just want to do whatever they been doing and get carried.

::raises hand::

I have played since beta.
I have run exactly one trial.
I have not run all of the original content on Vet yet.
I have spent my time in game doing quests and exploring and doing overland achievements.


Now I am in a place where I would like to see end game content and PVP. People see CP810 and assume I know what I am doing. People see CP810 and laugh when you say "this is new" or "I don't know how to do that."

Rolling a "new" character doesn't matter because as soon as I hit 50 I get hit as CP810 and no one is interested in teaching me anything now.

I have been told that I should have "paid attention" while playing. Only what I played, PVE overland, requires so little in the way of skill development that it absolutely does not equal what you will run into in trials and PVP.

I have been told that my >insert class here< is "easy to play" and I shouldn't have so much trouble.

I have read a lot. But that also doesn't mean I will be any good at applying the practical use of things.

Lastly...

It can be really intimidating asking for help.

Please don't assume that I am CP810, struggling with DPS (or healing or tanking) and understand what it is I need to do to be better but just refuse to try. Odds are I think I am doing fine, because what I am doing had worked perfectly right up until now.

Please offer the help. Some of us need it and would be very grateful.

If you find it hard to ask for help, no one will help if you don’t even ask.