While I won't deny getting a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach when I notice I (tank) did 30% DPS on the first boss, it's part and parcel of pugging.

I don't think artificially buffing/nerfing DPS to keep it within a defined range would really achieve much, and for a lot of people finally hitting 80/90/100k DPS (or whatever is cool these days) is a big deal - they practice, diddle with loadouts, git gud. There has to be a sense of achievement - and I mean personal achievement, not just 'I grind hard enough and am now GODTIER DPS'.

I do wonder why people do Vet content when they're obviously not ready for it. I avoided Vet content until I was around 400CP or so, because I'd tried a few Vet randoms and realised I was a) dying all the time, b) not doing enough DPS and c) didn't know the mechanics. So I stuck to normals, got better at the game, respecced a bit and came back when I thought I'd be more capable of clearing it. And when I did that, I started with FG1 and worked my way up more or less chronologically.

I get the attitude of 'no-one should be locked out of Vet content' but....it's literally a copy of the normal content, but harder. Run it as many times as you want, but do it on normal. If you're not capable of clearing the dungeon on Vet, then getting your mitts on a monster helm is probably not the biggest thing holding you back. You need to git gud.

Not sure what my point is tbh, but I think it comes down to 'It's super annoying as tank/healer when the DPS isn't up to scratch - but imagine how stupid the DD's must feel about it all'. Or something. I just can't believe that a big chunk of people are pugging Vet dungeons and thinking 'I know I'm useless, but hopefully I'll get a carry'. Some, perhaps. But not many.

Eifleber wrote: »

The game should stop using "normal" and "veterran" category only and split dungeons into 3 to 5 tiers instead with corresponding CP requirements.

it has zero do with with cp. 810s will often play worse than people that are cp 160.

the difference between an average player and a great player is far too big for any game imo. it just alienates so many players. it takes forever to go through jungle mobs with an average dps group. its just not fun at all. should we just make this game for the top 5% of dps players?. lets just kick everyone else out. let them do quests and normal dungeons. no monster helms for you

people are gonna brigade at me, yes, skill should matter. just not this big of a difference at all. a great dps will often do 3x the damage of an average player. the big problem is that the game is balanced around the guy that does the 3x damage. not the average player

obviously because that would make the game too easy. just I don't know. am leaving so many pugs because dps players are taking minutes to kill trash mobs, not bosses. trash mobs. am not trying to spend an hour+ in a dungeon. if hell I can do it at all who knows!

I pug vet dungeons quite a bit - including vet DLC's - so I'm mostly doing them with people over 300cp. The biggest problem I see is players just don't know the fights.

You can derp through most base game vets without too much trouble - especially as a DPS. Generally, any half decent group will be OP in a lot of those dungeons now due to power creep. 4 DPS runs are a lot of fun really.

In vet DLCs, however, mechanics are non negotiable by design. You do them or you die - that's all. And players just don't know them, so they die or cause wipes and generally make trouble for the whole group. DPS is rarely the issue as, for the most part, it's just a nice to have .

Apparently, they need a "quick refresher" or "haven't done this for a long time", they say. lol.

I'll offer advice where I think it will be helpful - but if we just keep wiping at the pug killer boss because it's clear some or all don't know the fights and can't learn quickly - then I'm out

Imo, if you're even thinking of doing vet dungeons and especially vet DLC's, why not take the time to check out any of the many very. very helpful guides to the fights rather than drop into a group and hope you can derp or bluff through? This will make a huge difference to any group.

ZOS should gate harder group content behind some sort of role specific proving ground. I don't mean vMA level, just something to be sure DD players have working build and can do basic rotation before they can join vet dungeon. And a bit harder proving ground for vet DLC dungeons.

While ppl are more than willing to explain boss mechanics and kill it after few tries, theres nothing they can do with someone who does 0dmg and dies to everthing

ForzaRammer wrote: »

What make you think cap cp 10k dps is even willing to listen at all?

They simply just want to do whatever they been doing and get carried.

::raises hand::

I have played since beta.
I have run exactly one trial.
I have not run all of the original content on Vet yet.
I have spent my time in game doing quests and exploring and doing overland achievements.


Now I am in a place where I would like to see end game content and PVP. People see CP810 and assume I know what I am doing. People see CP810 and laugh when you say "this is new" or "I don't know how to do that."

Rolling a "new" character doesn't matter because as soon as I hit 50 I get hit as CP810 and no one is interested in teaching me anything now.

I have been told that I should have "paid attention" while playing. Only what I played, PVE overland, requires so little in the way of skill development that it absolutely does not equal what you will run into in trials and PVP.

I have been told that my >insert class here< is "easy to play" and I shouldn't have so much trouble.

I have read a lot. But that also doesn't mean I will be any good at applying the practical use of things.

Lastly...

It can be really intimidating asking for help.

Please don't assume that I am CP810, struggling with DPS (or healing or tanking) and understand what it is I need to do to be better but just refuse to try. Odds are I think I am doing fine, because what I am doing had worked perfectly right up until now.

Please offer the help. Some of us need it and would be very grateful.

You are right, completing vet dlc dungeons randomly is not easy and finding the right group can take up to a full day.
As I have written several times in this forum ZOS should improve the loot for veteran dlc dungeons, so as to encourage more players to do them (experienced players) and give the possibility to complete them with gi alts.
Many here will continue to write the nonsense (for me) of not queuing with random, but it is often inevitable and it is time for ZOS to think about the gaming community and not just churn out dlc and areas that are mostly unplayable or involving a big waste of time where the main factor for each video game is lost = fun and playability.

mairwen85 wrote: »

Korinth wrote: »

Personally I feel the big problem is you only have two modes in ESO.

1) Normal - Faceroll easy

2) Vet - you better have your schtuff together as a group or you wont beat it (especially DLC).

And the learning curve between Normal and Vet is HUUGE. Which is where this game fails to teach most players how to play the mechanics.

I would think this game would be much better served having at least three modes/degrees of difficulty. Much like SWTOR has. SWOTR (if I recall correctly had)

1) Story mode - faceroll easy..but good for new players to start with.
2) Normal mode- you needed to follow mechanics but not too punishing. Great for new players that WANT to learn to play better.
3) Hardmode - equal to our Vet mode, maybe just a tad easier. Had to know mechanics AND most had to know a good rotation and have advanced (but not BiS) gear to beat.
4) Nightmare - Our vet mode + Hardmode and then some. Had to be a top tier player, BiS gear for all, and even then was a challenge.

This would allow all players to play all content...

Just my .02 cents

Agree 100%. A middle tier is desperately missing. Not so much on the base game dungeons, but certainly for DLC going forward. Not only does it open DLC up for more people to play, it also serves as a training ground. The only issue is rewards which would need reworking in terms of geodes and keys.

To be honest a lot of players who are generally oblivious to mechanics and dps would consider lot of DLC dungeons to be middle tier or difficult even in normal.

I don't see the point of middle tier dungeons, instead you can just work your way through base game vet dungeons and easier DLC dungeons first.

My issue with PUG groups is not DPS, it's failing the mechanics. That's why you must be prepared to spend at least an hour when you pug a vet dlc dungeon. Realistically, even 2-3 hours. What most people do is they wipe a couple of times and leave. If you want to complete vet dlc dungeons without a lot of wiping PLEASE don't pug at all! Do it with your friends.

I don't see why people pug difficult vet dlc dungeons. The average dps is atrocious and tanks/healers often have to sit there and watch a trainwreck in progress before leaving after 15 minutes to queue for the next one. The rewards aren't worth it at all.

josiahva wrote: »

The problem is that people feel entitled to a clear when using the group finder. For myself, I find that vet DLC dungeons in group finder I can complete 70%+ of the time in a reasonable timeframe.(other people's experience may vary). When I step into the group finder, I have no expectations of completing the dungeon at all. I realize that the group I am paired with is random and may be very bad indeed...and that's ok, I use that to my advantage, finding new ways to survive and utilize skills that maybe I wouldn't normally utilize(I mainly tank). I don't use the group finder to complete dungeons(I can do that easily with my guild). I use the dungeon finder to become a better player...you are forced to become better when other people are worse...its a practice tool...NOT a completion tool.

I don't think thats the case I think when its taking forever to clear trash mobs for most people theres a problem. the bosses should be the bottleneck that kind of kills the clears of some pug groups. not not being able to actually do it in a reasonable amount of time

Bizlipkick wrote: »

Coatmagic wrote: »

Unless people are willing to put in the time (literal hours on target dummy) they cannot get decent rotation to do high tier dps.

I am one of those people that refuses to dummy hump and my dps will always suck because of it and personally I don't care and also keep myself out of pugs xD

Very few (if any?) people pick up this game and jump to 70k dps without lots of practice.

Not sure what can be done about this gap as it's not to do with cp or ani cancel just BORING TIME SINK parsing dummy.

Sorry I watch my hubby and his 120k + group dps buddies a lot and I'm just like 'whatever' LOL Cause I know for real how much time they spend in their homes, alone, playing with themselves to 'git gud'.

Nearly all content can be completed (albeit painfully long) with low deeps as long as group has the patience and can enjoy an old school mmo slog figuring out how to get'er'done xD *discord and good humour help a lot with that

I never understood the "they must be a basement dweller, that's why they are good" argument. I am an above average player (definitely not too tier) and work full time (military), married with a 13 year old, work out. etc. etc. and play games well. And I am definitely not the exception.

It's an excuse people make who are too lazy to put in a little effort but still want the rewards that effort brings.