I finally get why people were crying when they switch rapids with vigor....

mb10

But you can *buy* horse speed

Big point people are missing

PizzaCat82

mb10 wrote: »

But you can *buy* horse speed

Big point people are missing

Yup. ZOS has been pushing people toward the crown store a lot recently, especially with event tickets and RNG.

This very well could be a monetary decision as opposed to a balance decision.

nukk3r

Kalik_Gold wrote: »

Should have left it alone. Healing potions are in the game for a reason. Vigor was never an importance on any of my characters while leveling. Most classes unlock a heal by mid-game.

Ever played stamblade or stamcro?

UrQuan

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

I've still never used it. And until these recent "OMG, why are they making this switch?!?!?" threads, I'd never seen it advertised by anyone as Utterly Necessary For PvE.

Eh, whatever. /shrug

I don't know where you've been for the past 6 years, but ever since launch one of the most common things I've seen in "ESO beginner tips" or "Things I wish I had known when I started playing ESO" videos, guides, etc. has been "As soon as you hit level 10, go to Cyrodiil, do the intro quest, and get Rapids."

Elvenheart

I’ve been through Cyrodiil on a horse with no speed,
It felt bad to be last to the keep.
In Cyrodiil, you can’t get very far
‘Cause the movement’s like being covered in tar...
La, la 🐎

TheRealPotoroo

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

14 Battleground games, tops. That's literally all it will take. Start doing them as you hit Level 10 and you'll have Rapids in no time, as well as a nice stock of Transmute crystals.

14 * 15 minutes per match. = 210 minutes

~15 minute queue times (which is what I'm getting) x 14 matches = 210 minutes

Total Time per character = 420 minutes = 7 hours

Endless hate tells because I'm bringing a character with minimal skills unlocked.

20 characters across 2 accounts who are not at Assault 5 (16 who are there, so I've definitely done my share of PvP)

7 hours x 20 characters = 140 Hours.

140 Hours of game time. Game time I could be doing other content I enjoy more. Whereas the majority of players who NEED vigor are primarily PvP players anyways.

Because Vigor, a skill less than 30% of the player base can even use in a build (and only then in solo play, on certain classes), needs to be easier to unlock.

This is about ZoS trying to sell more alliance skill line tokens, and to say otherwise is disingenuous.

You know how long it takes to level undaunted, psijic, fighters guild and mages guild? Not to mention all the time spent of farming monster helms/shoulders, dungeon specific sets and ability altering weapons.
That's what every pvper has to go through.

And you complain about a couple hours at most, spent in pvp so you can unlock vigor on your stam chars.

Whataboutism isn't an argument. 7 hours per alt is not a joke.

fierackas

Pretty sure most of my 16 toons are high enough pvp rank not to worry but any that aren't will get parked in the BG start/respawn area while I watch tv. Bit rough on those who's game time is getting ruined but they can take it up with ZoS.

LightningWitch

[snip]

Yes, the game is a bit brutal at early levels, especially when approaching CP, but the entire purpose is to learn the mechanics of the skills picked, which too many new players walk in with the attitude they don't have time for.

It's absolutely embarrassing for me to wipe in an Undaunted pledge 1, because my group doesn't know how to sustain, block, and even bash, for crying out loud.

[snip] There's no way in hell this change can be seen as "helpful", when all it does is add to the game's already broken crutch system of giving new players everything without teaching them how to play or use the skills given to them.

CP810s who don't even know how to bash. Pathetic.

[Edited to remove Baiting and Bashing]

lucky_Sage

Why do so many people complain about liking AvA skill lines when undaunted way longer to lvl

fierackas

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Why do so many people complain about liking AvA skill lines when undaunted way longer to lvl

Pretty sure they aren't changing the Undaunted skill line

Linaleah

Kittytravel wrote: »

Thing is the players won't make a united front for the demand of both Vigor and Rapids being moved to first skill slots in both skill lines.
Vigor remains under Assault as the first skill.
Rapids moves to Support as the first skill.
Flare moves to Assault as whatever skill number cause it really doesn't matter.

Having it reverted will just make the same case argument they used before to switch it in the first place. This argument supports both because Rapids is used by I'd wager 95% of the playerbase and Vigor is useful to 4/6 Stam classes and makes sense to not gate it.

this would be ideal.

and I would wager the only players NOT happy with it, are the ones who just love to engage in Schadenfreude and are looking forward to farming easy AP from crafting alts that are not equipped for pvp participation.

and this is a suggestion that's been made almost from the start.

there are 2 possible reasons why ZoS is not doing it this way.

1. they genuinely think they are helping, but coding won't allow them to move skill between different skill lines, only up and down within the same line (which honestly sounds... odd, since they are the ones who coded the game to begin with and i'm not sure why moving the code between 2 locations is such a struggle)
2. riding lessons sales are down and this is an attempt to bump them up under the guise of quality of life change for stamina characters.

Linaleah

nukk3r wrote: »

Kalik_Gold wrote: »

Should have left it alone. Healing potions are in the game for a reason. Vigor was never an importance on any of my characters while leveling. Most classes unlock a heal by mid-game.

Ever played stamblade or stamcro?

yes to both. stamcro is more the fine (you have a class skill, yes its magika based, but its an actual heal so i use it the same way i use magika based heal on my stamplar, etc). stamblade is the only one that has issues with self healing, especially early on.

what sounds more logical to you. fixing skills for a single class so that they are up to par with everyone else?

or making quality of life feature that EVERY class/spec can find useful - much harder to get, under the guise of fixing self healing issue for HALF A CLASS (since its stamblades specifically that suffer?)

MrGhosty

No real opinion on the change itself as I play a little bit of everything, but for folks worried about doing PvP to level up there are options. The first option is to plan ahead when taking a new toon out to give yourself a lead time where you can put points into mount speed prior to them being used for anything (basic day to day stuff in towns don't need super speed). If you get to about 20 that was considered the minimum amount of speed needed to keep up with the zergs and reach keeps.

The second option is to go into cyro and put LFG in the zone chat, public zergs are pretty common and you will get more experience being grouped with people than not. Most commanders are willing to explain/teach as they go particularly if you say that you're new.

Third option would be to make use of the transitus shrines as a means of getting ahead of zergs. If it's during primetime you can usually find a contested keep fairly close to a spawn point and then participate in its defense as much as possible. Some of the town daily quests reward AP and are largely ignored except during mayhem and other related events where PvErs are likely to flock in droves which makes tasty bait for the gankers. The repeatable quests at the main spawn gate can also be a worthwhile source of AP, with the scroll quest being quite useful for passive gains as you simply need to be in the zone when it gets capped to get credit.

In BGs, doing the daily bg quest and getting at least 2nd place will net you a huge bump of xp and give you AP as well. While not as easy to do now that group queuing has been removed, it's not impossible but can certainly be frustrating for some players. If you group in Cyro, there is almost always someone running rapids to give to the group and if you are unfamiliar with cyro pvp there is strength in numbers. For all that is holy, do not go into BGs and then sit in the spawn simply because you're mad at ZoS for making a change. It isn't the other players' fault that Zos moved skills around and there are plenty of more passive way to gain AP in Cyro that doesn't impact others as much. I would, however, highly suggest trying the PvP as its not nearly as awful as most expect it to be. It's certainly not perfect but there are some nice folks out there willing to help new players and it might surprise you with how much fun you might have.

Additionally, Rapids in PvE is only really "needed" if you are trying to run dolmens/harrowstorms/geysers/Dragons and in most cases when those things are being farmed the turnover rate is high enough you can simply stay at one location and wait for the things to spawn. Again, I don't blame folks for being upset and I would much rather see them shake things up in the skill lines so vigor and rapids unlock at the same time but it's not impassable.

zaria

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Why do so many people complain about liking AvA skill lines when undaunted way longer to lvl

Good point also its easy to level up AvA skills in baby Cyrodil but you you want to farm HM dungeons and achievements to level Undaunted fast.

SpiritofESO

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

14 Battleground games, tops. That's literally all it will take. Start doing them as you hit Level 10 and you'll have Rapids in no time, as well as a nice stock of Transmute crystals.

Yep -- agreed.

I was all about PvE until I wanted the PvP skill lines and then I got hooked on Death Match Battlegrounds.

However, since my mounts for my characters are fully trained, I actually got rid of Rapid Maneuver (Charging Maneuver morph) because I simply did not want to lose a skill from either my front of back bar.

Also agreed about the Transmute Crystals -- I am 200/200.

Kittytravel

Linaleah wrote: »

2. riding lessons sales are down and this is an attempt to bump them up under the guise of quality of life change for stamina characters.

I'd wager this has a big influencing factor. And rather than taking the obvious route of just lowering the price on riding lessons to make it more appealing to blow real money on the game they would rather take a stab at their player base.

For a long time I've committed that I would never buy riding lessons because I don't want to spend $60 per character to fully rank their mount speed. (10 Riding lessons per 1000 crowns. 60 Needed.)
I've always thought to myself "Wow if they made those riding lessons 100 crowns per 10 I'd almost wager every single person who ever comes to the game for more than a month will blow $6 per toon to have max riding."
Hell they'd probably blow $18 per toon to have it all.

Jaraal

Linaleah wrote: »

Kittytravel wrote: »

Thing is the players won't make a united front for the demand of both Vigor and Rapids being moved to first skill slots in both skill lines.
Vigor remains under Assault as the first skill.
Rapids moves to Support as the first skill.
Flare moves to Assault as whatever skill number cause it really doesn't matter.

Having it reverted will just make the same case argument they used before to switch it in the first place. This argument supports both because Rapids is used by I'd wager 95% of the playerbase and Vigor is useful to 4/6 Stam classes and makes sense to not gate it.

this would be ideal.

and I would wager the only players NOT happy with it, are the ones who just love to engage in Schadenfreude and are looking forward to farming easy AP from crafting alts that are not equipped for pvp participation.

and this is a suggestion that's been made almost from the start.

there are 2 possible reasons why ZoS is not doing it this way.

1. they genuinely think they are helping, but coding won't allow them to move skill between different skill lines, only up and down within the same line (which honestly sounds... odd, since they are the ones who coded the game to begin with and i'm not sure why moving the code between 2 locations is such a struggle)
2. riding lessons sales are down and this is an attempt to bump them up under the guise of quality of life change for stamina characters.

3. You will be more likely to pay cash for AvA skill lines for your alts.

4. You will be more likely to buy the new two person mounts to haul your newly slowed down friends around.

majulook

I really do not understand the swapping of these two skills.
It seams to me that all players benefit from Rapids, as it is a mount speed increase.
Vigor is a stamina heal that I would not think that many if any magicka based characters would use.
Add the amount of animosity that some players have to PVP.

The question of why do this, is one I would like answered by ZOS.

Linaleah

Jaraal wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kittytravel wrote: »

Thing is the players won't make a united front for the demand of both Vigor and Rapids being moved to first skill slots in both skill lines.
Vigor remains under Assault as the first skill.
Rapids moves to Support as the first skill.
Flare moves to Assault as whatever skill number cause it really doesn't matter.

Having it reverted will just make the same case argument they used before to switch it in the first place. This argument supports both because Rapids is used by I'd wager 95% of the playerbase and Vigor is useful to 4/6 Stam classes and makes sense to not gate it.

this would be ideal.

and I would wager the only players NOT happy with it, are the ones who just love to engage in Schadenfreude and are looking forward to farming easy AP from crafting alts that are not equipped for pvp participation.

and this is a suggestion that's been made almost from the start.

there are 2 possible reasons why ZoS is not doing it this way.

1. they genuinely think they are helping, but coding won't allow them to move skill between different skill lines, only up and down within the same line (which honestly sounds... odd, since they are the ones who coded the game to begin with and i'm not sure why moving the code between 2 locations is such a struggle)
2. riding lessons sales are down and this is an attempt to bump them up under the guise of quality of life change for stamina characters.

3. You will be more likely to pay cash for AvA skill lines for your alts.

4. You will be more likely to buy the new two person mounts to haul your newly slowed down friends around.

good point, missed those, but that is a REALLY good point.

agegarton

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

14 Battleground games, tops. That's literally all it will take. Start doing them as you hit Level 10 and you'll have Rapids in no time, as well as a nice stock of Transmute crystals.

14 * 15 minutes per match. = 210 minutes

~15 minute queue times (which is what I'm getting) x 14 matches = 210 minutes

Total Time per character = 420 minutes = 7 hours

Endless hate tells because I'm bringing a character with minimal skills unlocked.

20 characters across 2 accounts who are not at Assault 5 (16 who are there, so I've definitely done my share of PvP)

7 hours x 20 characters = 140 Hours.

140 Hours of game time. Game time I could be doing other content I enjoy more. Whereas the majority of players who NEED vigor are primarily PvP players anyways.

Because Vigor, a skill less than 30% of the player base can even use in a build (and only then in solo play, on certain classes), needs to be easier to unlock.

This is about ZoS trying to sell more alliance skill line tokens, and to say otherwise is disingenuous.

And Crown Store mount upgrades. And Crown Store dual-person mounts. Basically just Crown Store stuff.

Sarannah

Switching Vigor with Rapids seems like a good move to me. New players need a way to heal themselves, while rapids is just a QoL skill. It would also disallow low level farming bots from using rapids.

Personally I never use(d) rapids, and in my opinion they should even remove it fully. Level playing field and all.

Grianasteri

I confess I am not really sure what the OP is asking for.

But anyway, I do not slot rally for the speed, because I prefer to have a heal on my bar, or another skills. Do I like rally? Hells yeah, I love it when a group member pops it. But in terms of actual game play, I am willing to forgo the mount speed in favour of a better overall build.

This is intensely frustrating on a character who has not levelled mount speed. But I put up with it and you get used to it.

When ever I have started a new character intended for pvp, or switched a pve character to pvp, the mount speed automatically becomes the focus for levelling.
.

Mariusghost84

Gundug wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

14 Battleground games, tops. That's literally all it will take. Start doing them as you hit Level 10 and you'll have Rapids in no time, as well as a nice stock of Transmute crystals.

14 * 15 minutes per match. = 210 minutes...

This is almost exactly the response I was going to give (same math and everything), except I have probably some 40+ characters to grind. This Alliance War adjustment is the single most maddening change I have seen for this game. Anything that makes the game less alt-friendly brings me closer to canceling the Plus membership I have on four accounts and saying screw it to putting much into the game anymore.

Why om earth do you have four accounts man?!

BeefcakeManwich

Jaraal wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kittytravel wrote: »

Thing is the players won't make a united front for the demand of both Vigor and Rapids being moved to first skill slots in both skill lines.
Vigor remains under Assault as the first skill.
Rapids moves to Support as the first skill.
Flare moves to Assault as whatever skill number cause it really doesn't matter.

Having it reverted will just make the same case argument they used before to switch it in the first place. This argument supports both because Rapids is used by I'd wager 95% of the playerbase and Vigor is useful to 4/6 Stam classes and makes sense to not gate it.

this would be ideal.

and I would wager the only players NOT happy with it, are the ones who just love to engage in Schadenfreude and are looking forward to farming easy AP from crafting alts that are not equipped for pvp participation.

and this is a suggestion that's been made almost from the start.

there are 2 possible reasons why ZoS is not doing it this way.

1. they genuinely think they are helping, but coding won't allow them to move skill between different skill lines, only up and down within the same line (which honestly sounds... odd, since they are the ones who coded the game to begin with and i'm not sure why moving the code between 2 locations is such a struggle)
2. riding lessons sales are down and this is an attempt to bump them up under the guise of quality of life change for stamina characters.

3. You will be more likely to pay cash for AvA skill lines for your alts.

4. You will be more likely to buy the new two person mounts to haul your newly slowed down friends around.

I like ur #4. I'm glad u r adding to the conversation.

mocap

- stick with zerg, spam Radiant regen
- repair walls. You need some money for that, around 120-150k. Repair frontline keeps (ash, wrd, roe, ales, brk).

Minyassa

Just go in during off times and repair walls. Use healing boosts, go kill a delve boss before you start, go into offline mode so nobody can whisper you, and it doesn't take long.

vectoraz22

*hands the op a tissue

I don't see what the issue is here either way. I just levelled a new alt and i went to cyrodil where i joined a 20 man group and ran for 2 hours and levelled my assault/support skill lines to level 5. This is so easy. Join a group and follow the group, collect ap, easy. And I do this on all my alts and repeat monthly for the 50 transmute crystal rewards per character.

buttaface

Minyassa wrote: »

Just go in during off times and repair walls. Use healing boosts, go kill a delve boss before you start, go into offline mode so nobody can whisper you, and it doesn't take long.

Just did the wall repair grind on a few non pvp alts, crafters, mules at the end of the campaign. Spent about 4 hours doing 7 characters, so I don't see the big deal being made of this either (yay my crafter can level warhorn now! lol). It can be costly, but some of these people complaining about all their alts are almost surely swimming in gold due to writs, so cry me a river and fork out for repair kits or riding lessons if this change is THAT insufferable for you, this change is no big deal.

Being a smart repairer helps and not waiting til the last few days of the campaign when every other schmo is trying to get their crystals on all their crafters, mules, etc. It is somewhat easy to tell low pop bonus, and looking at the map can reveal "enemy lines" bonuses. I got a few lucky ticks and defenses repairing on alts last week and those took as little as 15 minutes.

There are lots of things to complain about in this game, but having to do an extra paltry amount of AP to get rapids on alts just isn't one.

karekiz

Or they could just level scale mounts speed and stamina in cyrodiil to max. That would be like. Better gameplay.

Nestor

I am laughing at all these PvP players who say it is no big deal to level the Skill Line. First, its not a big deal for a PvP player to level the skill line. It is a big deal for PvE players who do not do PvP, and are not geared for it.

But, here is a selfish reason for you PvP folks. All of us PvE's are going to be clogging up Cyrodiil so you will have to wait longer and longer to enter your campaigns.