They are really going to let these vampire eviscerate changes go to live?

Lalothen

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

If the decision about B4B was a first step in reviving vamp, than it's well made. Because whole skill line revolving around one specific morph is a bad design. But if it ends here and the one morph that was clearly better and the only reason to pick an optional skill line was brought in line (favourite ZoS's phrase) with the rest of skills, than vampire will be choice exclusive to RP.

This. I really hope they're going to take a deeper look at a reVamp to bring the skill line more up to par usability-wise with WW whilst maintaining a decent level of uniqueness. Ultimately it's not easy though, and finding the sweet spot where the line is viable without ending up being essentially mandatory because one skill is grossly overtuned, is likely going to take some time and a lot of good, constructive dialogue.

Lord-Otto

Lalothen wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

If the decision about B4B was a first step in reviving vamp, than it's well made. Because whole skill line revolving around one specific morph is a bad design. But if it ends here and the one morph that was clearly better and the only reason to pick an optional skill line was brought in line (favourite ZoS's phrase) with the rest of skills, than vampire will be choice exclusive to RP.

This. I really hope they're going to take a deeper look at a reVamp to bring the skill line more up to par usability-wise with WW whilst maintaining a decent level of uniqueness. Ultimately it's not easy though, and finding the sweet spot where the line is viable without ending up being essentially mandatory because one skill is grossly overtuned, is likely going to take some time and a lot of good, constructive dialogue.

They won't. They're done with the re-vamp and do not care about what we think.

ManM

Evemir wrote: »

ManM wrote: »

With this change, nothing in the skill line will be good for end-game min/maxing. I dare say, this is working as intended. The message is very clear: if you want to optimize for trials and such, don't be a vampire. If you want to have fun running around in overland content murdering unsuspecting NPCs, vampire is an option.

Sure. The only problem is that if you choose the second, the first will be closed to you. While with werewolves there is no such problem.
Werewolves are not a meta, they can't give out top dps and are not the best build in the game. But they are not bad. They can deal a decent dps, so as not to be kicked out of the group, as well as at any time can remove the transformation from the skillpanel and de-facto stop being werewolves.

A vampire doesn't have it all. He punishes you for trying to play a vampire, you will give out less damage and you will not be able to be healed, and you can not just stop being a vampire, even if you decide to make a normal build-penalties will remain

So vampirism is the ONLY thing in the game that focuses EXCLUSIVELY on overland and makes you WEAKER in the rest of the content.

There are no more such things in the game. Werewolf is suitable for group pve, although it is not a meta. A werewolf doesn't make you any weaker until you turn into a wolf.

This is literally the ONLY thing that binds your character to exclusively overland content. Once again, there are no such things in the game anymore. No skill line makes you weaker in the rest of the content. Does not bind your character exclusively to RP. This is clearly a game design problem.

P.S. If your want to run around murdering unsuspecting NPCs then you can use dark brotherhood skill line THAT ALSO DON'T HAVE ANY PENATLIES

Vampire being suboptimal for end-game grouping does not bind you exclusively to overland content. Vampire skills necessitate a solo build. You can certainly be viable in trials and dungeons running a solo vampire build. Optimal? No. Sufficient? Sure. Bad? Far from it. Lay your carpet of AOEs, blood mist and move to your target, pop swarming scion, and blood for blood spam all you like. At that point, you don't need a healer anyway.

Lord-Otto

ManM wrote: »

Evemir wrote: »

ManM wrote: »

With this change, nothing in the skill line will be good for end-game min/maxing. I dare say, this is working as intended. The message is very clear: if you want to optimize for trials and such, don't be a vampire. If you want to have fun running around in overland content murdering unsuspecting NPCs, vampire is an option.

Sure. The only problem is that if you choose the second, the first will be closed to you. While with werewolves there is no such problem.
Werewolves are not a meta, they can't give out top dps and are not the best build in the game. But they are not bad. They can deal a decent dps, so as not to be kicked out of the group, as well as at any time can remove the transformation from the skillpanel and de-facto stop being werewolves.

A vampire doesn't have it all. He punishes you for trying to play a vampire, you will give out less damage and you will not be able to be healed, and you can not just stop being a vampire, even if you decide to make a normal build-penalties will remain

So vampirism is the ONLY thing in the game that focuses EXCLUSIVELY on overland and makes you WEAKER in the rest of the content.

There are no more such things in the game. Werewolf is suitable for group pve, although it is not a meta. A werewolf doesn't make you any weaker until you turn into a wolf.

This is literally the ONLY thing that binds your character to exclusively overland content. Once again, there are no such things in the game anymore. No skill line makes you weaker in the rest of the content. Does not bind your character exclusively to RP. This is clearly a game design problem.

P.S. If your want to run around murdering unsuspecting NPCs then you can use dark brotherhood skill line THAT ALSO DON'T HAVE ANY PENATLIES

Vampire being suboptimal for end-game grouping does not bind you exclusively to overland content. Vampire skills necessitate a solo build. You can certainly be viable in trials and dungeons running a solo vampire build. Optimal? No. Sufficient? Sure. Bad? Far from it. Lay your carpet of AOEs, blood mist and move to your target, pop swarming scion, and blood for blood spam all you like. At that point, you don't need a healer anyway.

Oh, dear! I urge you to do that in the vet trials. I'd be extremely surprised to not see you kicked from the group after the first boss.
And another thing: "endgame" means 110% optimization. Otherwise it's not endgame. There is no "sufficient" in VCR+3. You have the best build available and the knowledge to do it or you fail.

Vevvev

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Who I feel sorry for is the healer who is wasting mana trying to heal someone who can't be healed. How will they know? Bad design move as part of the trilogy for dungeon and trial runs, Tank, healer and 2DD's.

Be safe and have fun

I always feel sorry for the healers when I decide to use Blood Frenzy to get the most damage out of my spammable so I know how disruptive this is going to be. At least with Blood frenzy you can turn it off at any time and get the heals but BfB is going to be a completely different beast. I imagine a lot of dead DD's, angry healers, and vampires getting cured when the PTS patch goes live.

Jodynn

ManM wrote: »

Evemir wrote: »

ManM wrote: »

With this change, nothing in the skill line will be good for end-game min/maxing. I dare say, this is working as intended. The message is very clear: if you want to optimize for trials and such, don't be a vampire. If you want to have fun running around in overland content murdering unsuspecting NPCs, vampire is an option.

Sure. The only problem is that if you choose the second, the first will be closed to you. While with werewolves there is no such problem.
Werewolves are not a meta, they can't give out top dps and are not the best build in the game. But they are not bad. They can deal a decent dps, so as not to be kicked out of the group, as well as at any time can remove the transformation from the skillpanel and de-facto stop being werewolves.

A vampire doesn't have it all. He punishes you for trying to play a vampire, you will give out less damage and you will not be able to be healed, and you can not just stop being a vampire, even if you decide to make a normal build-penalties will remain

So vampirism is the ONLY thing in the game that focuses EXCLUSIVELY on overland and makes you WEAKER in the rest of the content.

There are no more such things in the game. Werewolf is suitable for group pve, although it is not a meta. A werewolf doesn't make you any weaker until you turn into a wolf.

This is literally the ONLY thing that binds your character to exclusively overland content. Once again, there are no such things in the game anymore. No skill line makes you weaker in the rest of the content. Does not bind your character exclusively to RP. This is clearly a game design problem.

P.S. If your want to run around murdering unsuspecting NPCs then you can use dark brotherhood skill line THAT ALSO DON'T HAVE ANY PENATLIES

Vampire being suboptimal for end-game grouping does not bind you exclusively to overland content. Vampire skills necessitate a solo build. You can certainly be viable in trials and dungeons running a solo vampire build. Optimal? No. Sufficient? Sure. Bad? Far from it. Lay your carpet of AOEs, blood mist and move to your target, pop swarming scion, and blood for blood spam all you like. At that point, you don't need a healer anyway.

In endgame trial/dungeon content it's useless except cheesy mechanical acuity frenzy AoE trash bursting and honestly the 3% sustain the rest of the time is more worth it especially since most classes, like mine ( magDK ), can't sustain with their optimal DPS build without spamming spell symmetry.

Basically, I'll be curing Vampirism as soon as it drops, and so will anyone who isn't a Nightblade and wants the annoying functionality of Frenzy and less sustain.

Jodynn

For anyone arguing Arterial Burst, Elemental Weapon is stronger through it's elemental effects and passives ( the shield when blocking is incredibly useful as well ) , and it also gives you 3% sustain on everything since you don't have to be a vampire, AND you don't have to be melee.

For class spams, in this explanation magDK, blood for blood was only better than whip because it's sustain was better, otherwise whip is much better, not only because the seething fury is easier to proc than the self execute mulitplier, but because fire damage causes burning, which is a strong DoT for magicka classes especially magDK and because engulfing flames buffs it.

Xebov

Tannus15 wrote: »

Part of the reason B4B was so tempting is that builds with sustain issues could run it for a "free" spammable.
It had a down side which is if you use it too much at the wrong time you could die and it's a melee ability which isn't always ideal. Personally I think it does too much damage for what I think of as a sustain spammable, but whatever.

The scaling nerf on it would probably be enough to bring it in line, but the healing nerf kills it dead in the water. It's not "sub optimal" it's "you cannot use this in trials because you'll die".

You need to look at the other side of this too. A "free" spammable that you cant overuse in certain situations is only the DD side. Using health for a spamable puts the Healers into the flow which technically increases their workload. The DD uses Health as a resource and the Healer has to constantly replanish it. I can fully understand that the Devs dont want to see the responsebility shift to another player.

Jodynn

Xebov wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Part of the reason B4B was so tempting is that builds with sustain issues could run it for a "free" spammable.
It had a down side which is if you use it too much at the wrong time you could die and it's a melee ability which isn't always ideal. Personally I think it does too much damage for what I think of as a sustain spammable, but whatever.

The scaling nerf on it would probably be enough to bring it in line, but the healing nerf kills it dead in the water. It's not "sub optimal" it's "you cannot use this in trials because you'll die".

You need to look at the other side of this too. A "free" spammable that you cant overuse in certain situations is only the DD side. Using health for a spamable puts the Healers into the flow which technically increases their workload. The DD uses Health as a resource and the Healer has to constantly replanish it. I can fully understand that the Devs dont want to see the responsebility shift to another player.

A healer can outheal BFB with one illustrious......

IonicKai

Bfb was too powerful for it's ease of use but the damage decrease brought it in line. Again the fundamental issue is that blocking outside healing for 5 seconds is a death sentence unless you can predict more than 5 seconds ahead if you will need outside heals or not. This being a spammable means that debuff will be up almost 100% of the time. That puts it behind a higher more dangerous skill wall than frenzy which was a fringe use ability because the minigame wasn't worth it. The minigame for new bfb makes it a complete waste to use because you will just die and there is nothing anyone can do to save you...

Xebov

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Part of the reason B4B was so tempting is that builds with sustain issues could run it for a "free" spammable.
It had a down side which is if you use it too much at the wrong time you could die and it's a melee ability which isn't always ideal. Personally I think it does too much damage for what I think of as a sustain spammable, but whatever.

The scaling nerf on it would probably be enough to bring it in line, but the healing nerf kills it dead in the water. It's not "sub optimal" it's "you cannot use this in trials because you'll die".

You need to look at the other side of this too. A "free" spammable that you cant overuse in certain situations is only the DD side. Using health for a spamable puts the Healers into the flow which technically increases their workload. The DD uses Health as a resource and the Healer has to constantly replanish it. I can fully understand that the Devs dont want to see the responsebility shift to another player.

A healer can outheal BFB with one illustrious......

I dont doubt that, you just miss the point.
The point is that in a group situation the player that uses the skill doesnt have to care to much about resource management. He uses the skill but the resource is managed by someone else. It doesnt matter if its easy to outheal, the point is that extern input is used to make this work. Looking at it from a pure technical perspective it makes sense to look at it to put the responsibility back to the user.
The problem when dealing with this is that only a few abilities use up health and the systems behind it are not as good as the magicka and stamina systems.

ManM

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Oh, dear! I urge you to do that in the vet trials. I'd be extremely surprised to not see you kicked from the group after the first boss.
And another thing: "endgame" means 110% optimization. Otherwise it's not endgame. There is no "sufficient" in VCR+3. You have the best build available and the knowledge to do it or you fail.

This is true for any build or player skill level that doesn't conform to the meta, vampire or not. The higher up in content you get, the higher the bar becomes for "sufficient", and there is no question that with this change, vampire falls off of the list for top end content. A lot of other things fall off at that level too. That doesn't relegate it only to overland content though. Solo builds can do just fine in group content up to a point.

Lord-Otto

ManM wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Oh, dear! I urge you to do that in the vet trials. I'd be extremely surprised to not see you kicked from the group after the first boss.
And another thing: "endgame" means 110% optimization. Otherwise it's not endgame. There is no "sufficient" in VCR+3. You have the best build available and the knowledge to do it or you fail.

This is true for any build or player skill level that doesn't conform to the meta, vampire or not. The higher up in content you get, the higher the bar becomes for "sufficient", and there is no question that with this change, vampire falls off of the list for top end content. A lot of other things fall off at that level too. That doesn't relegate it only to overland content though. Solo builds can do just fine in group content up to a point.

Anything can do just fine to a point. I can heavy attack my way through certain dungeons. I don't need vampirism for that and it's not getting more interesting with it. I can do anything to a certain point. What I can't do is finish endgame content with a fun build. I need to be effective there. Vampirism after the BfB change will be nothing but a hindrance. So I need to get rid of it. So I can't be a vampire roleplayer in overworld content.

The re-vamp failed, pure and simple. Whereas people used to look at the pros and cons and decided whether it was worth it (usually was), they now look at the pros and cons and decide whether it's worth it (usually isn't). In both cases, no interesting RPG choice is being made. Endgame performance takes the choice out of your hand. And at the end of the day, I have now less flavor in my character than before. The last thing this game needs is even more standardization, watering down and loss of flavor.

DT-ARR

What they should have done was scaled the no heal penalty based on vampire stage.

Stage 4 vamp doesnt disable outside heals at all.

Stage 3 vamp disables outside heals for 2 seconds.

Stage 2 vamp disables outside heals for 4 seconds.

Stage 1 vamp disables outside heals for 5 seconds.

Or something to that effect.

SlimeBro1

DT-ARR wrote: »

What they should have done was scaled the no heal penalty based on vampire stage.

Stage 4 vamp doesnt disable outside heals at all.

Stage 3 vamp disables outside heals for 2 seconds.

Stage 2 vamp disables outside heals for 4 seconds.

Stage 1 vamp disables outside heals for 5 seconds.

Or something to that effect.

This actually would be a great incentive for peeps who want more reason to play stage 4.

Xebov

SlimeBro1 wrote: »

DT-ARR wrote: »

What they should have done was scaled the no heal penalty based on vampire stage.

Stage 4 vamp doesnt disable outside heals at all.

Stage 3 vamp disables outside heals for 2 seconds.

Stage 2 vamp disables outside heals for 4 seconds.

Stage 1 vamp disables outside heals for 5 seconds.

Or something to that effect.

This actually would be a great incentive for peeps who want more reason to play stage 4.

I doubt that. Higher stages have the cost increase. This means that higher stages make it harder to sustain the build portion that uses non vampire skills, but this in turn would make the vampire less preferable. The spamable would likely cost you more sustain than any other spamable which would defeat the reason to use it over something else that maybe has slightly less damage.

Vampire, like WW is a borderline skillline. It either gets strong enought to become meta (like now) or it tips over to the other side. You will never see this skill line becoming a side grade.

SlimeBro1

Xebov wrote: »

SlimeBro1 wrote: »

DT-ARR wrote: »

What they should have done was scaled the no heal penalty based on vampire stage.

Stage 4 vamp doesnt disable outside heals at all.

Stage 3 vamp disables outside heals for 2 seconds.

Stage 2 vamp disables outside heals for 4 seconds.

Stage 1 vamp disables outside heals for 5 seconds.

Or something to that effect.

This actually would be a great incentive for peeps who want more reason to play stage 4.

I doubt that. Higher stages have the cost increase. This means that higher stages make it harder to sustain the build portion that uses non vampire skills, but this in turn would make the vampire less preferable. The spamable would likely cost you more sustain than any other spamable which would defeat the reason to use it over something else that maybe has slightly less damage.

Vampire, like WW is a borderline skillline. It either gets strong enought to become meta (like now) or it tips over to the other side. You will never see this skill line becoming a side grade.

This is fair. Personally, I think the fact stage 4 only gives 1 bonus and like 4 negatives is insane. Should be a 1 for 1 in terms of stats.

ManM

Honestly, I'd like to see drain life given the properties of an execute, with 100-400% damage increase against targets with less than 25% health. It would be 100% at stage 1, 400% at stage 4.

Ratzkifal

SlimeBro1 wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Have you tested the changes on PTS, @SlimeBro1?

Or is this just another "sky is falling" new thread with no testing or evaluation feedback to support the argument ... ?

Just as @Tannus15 said, what is there to test? Lower damage scaling + no heal from allies for 5 seconds on a melee ability. why do I need to download the PTS to say that change is utter trash?

And.....there have been a few other threads about this topic with evaluation feedback and in-depth thoughts and testing on this subject. Would recommend looking around the PTS side of the forums.

Unless you're going to sit there and tell me that this change is good. Or if you somehow don't see how it is blatantly terrible then.....not sure what to tell you.

Do not underestimate the ability of ZOS to ignore your feedback simply because you didn't test what needed no testing.
They will absolutely ignore completely valid feedback if they feel like the players are "making a fuss over nothing, since they haven't even tested it yet" and are "being overdramatic".
They probably think it'll be fine and people can still do content if they just don't use the skill for 5 seconds to get health back. What could go wrong?

DT-ARR

Xebov wrote: »

SlimeBro1 wrote: »

DT-ARR wrote: »

What they should have done was scaled the no heal penalty based on vampire stage.

Stage 4 vamp doesnt disable outside heals at all.

Stage 3 vamp disables outside heals for 2 seconds.

Stage 2 vamp disables outside heals for 4 seconds.

Stage 1 vamp disables outside heals for 5 seconds.

Or something to that effect.

This actually would be a great incentive for peeps who want more reason to play stage 4.

I doubt that. Higher stages have the cost increase. This means that higher stages make it harder to sustain the build portion that uses non vampire skills, but this in turn would make the vampire less preferable. The spamable would likely cost you more sustain than any other spamable which would defeat the reason to use it over something else that maybe has slightly less damage.

Vampire, like WW is a borderline skillline. It either gets strong enought to become meta (like now) or it tips over to the other side. You will never see this skill line becoming a side grade.

Personally i feel like every vamp ability needs to scale with stage. Its not enough to simply reduce the cost via the passive.

Either increase the damage or add some defensive passive or something per skill. This would drastically increase the incentives to play vamp the way ZOS has intended. Aka not simply for a cost reduce passive or singular skill ala BfB.

Incredibly disappointing that they are so narrow minded and heavy handed with their approach.

JMadFour

So they are really still going with "Don't be a Vampire if you want to do group content"?

Faulgor

DT-ARR wrote: »

What they should have done was scaled the no heal penalty based on vampire stage.

Stage 4 vamp doesnt disable outside heals at all.

Stage 3 vamp disables outside heals for 2 seconds.

Stage 2 vamp disables outside heals for 4 seconds.

Stage 1 vamp disables outside heals for 5 seconds.

Or something to that effect.

That would make sense in terms of gameplay, but not with their revised design that higher stages decrease your health recovery.
The whole skill line is so full of contradictions. I really have no clue what their design goal for any of this is, nor are they telling us. What a waste of development time this revamp was.

SlimeBro1

Faulgor wrote: »

DT-ARR wrote: »

What they should have done was scaled the no heal penalty based on vampire stage.

Stage 4 vamp doesnt disable outside heals at all.

Stage 3 vamp disables outside heals for 2 seconds.

Stage 2 vamp disables outside heals for 4 seconds.

Stage 1 vamp disables outside heals for 5 seconds.

Or something to that effect.

That would make sense in terms of gameplay, but not with their revised design that higher stages decrease your health recovery.
The whole skill line is so full of contradictions. I really have no clue what their design goal for any of this is, nor are they telling us. What a waste of development time this revamp was.

They would of been better off literally either ripping off vamp lord from skyrim 1 for 1

or just giving us the npc abilities/form instead of designing all new skills for the players. I think it is so silly they spent dev time creating skills and a form for the NPCs, only to give players completely different skills.

And they apparently couldn't think to just give us vamp lords from Skyrim either.

Kind of a joke how much was wasted on developing this line tbh

d3adpain

of course lol you underestimate them, they said they dont people to use it (because of people cheese it to get high leaderboards) so they gonna make it useless like everything they nerf because its BALANCE in their mind

Nova_J

ManM wrote: »

Evemir wrote: »

ManM wrote: »

With this change, nothing in the skill line will be good for end-game min/maxing. I dare say, this is working as intended. The message is very clear: if you want to optimize for trials and such, don't be a vampire. If you want to have fun running around in overland content murdering unsuspecting NPCs, vampire is an option.

Sure. The only problem is that if you choose the second, the first will be closed to you. While with werewolves there is no such problem.
Werewolves are not a meta, they can't give out top dps and are not the best build in the game. But they are not bad. They can deal a decent dps, so as not to be kicked out of the group, as well as at any time can remove the transformation from the skillpanel and de-facto stop being werewolves.

A vampire doesn't have it all. He punishes you for trying to play a vampire, you will give out less damage and you will not be able to be healed, and you can not just stop being a vampire, even if you decide to make a normal build-penalties will remain

So vampirism is the ONLY thing in the game that focuses EXCLUSIVELY on overland and makes you WEAKER in the rest of the content.

There are no more such things in the game. Werewolf is suitable for group pve, although it is not a meta. A werewolf doesn't make you any weaker until you turn into a wolf.

This is literally the ONLY thing that binds your character to exclusively overland content. Once again, there are no such things in the game anymore. No skill line makes you weaker in the rest of the content. Does not bind your character exclusively to RP. This is clearly a game design problem.

P.S. If your want to run around murdering unsuspecting NPCs then you can use dark brotherhood skill line THAT ALSO DON'T HAVE ANY PENATLIES

Vampire being suboptimal for end-game grouping does not bind you exclusively to overland content. Vampire skills necessitate a solo build. You can certainly be viable in trials and dungeons running a solo vampire build. Optimal? No. Sufficient? Sure. Bad? Far from it. Lay your carpet of AOEs, blood mist and move to your target, pop swarming scion, and blood for blood spam all you like. At that point, you don't need a healer anyway.

Lol did you read what you just wrote? I can only use my spammable effectively if I'm in my scion ult form? Use blood mist to move to my target?? Lmaoo dude I'm sure you know the importance of dps in trials, having a skill like blood mist on your bar solely to move to your target while taking less damage is ridiculous (in a trial at least). And that's not even speaking on how clunky your rotation would be because you would have to use a heal every few seconds which would cut your dps down tremendously. Add that to the amount of burst damage you take in trials (that healers stop from killing you) and you're gonna be spending most of your time hoping you dont get hit.

All this added to the fact that if you arent using a class with high ult regen (necro or nightblade), that your scion form is going to have really low uptime. The ult is expensive af. These changes will push vamps to being used in babyproofed content you can run just about anything in.

Kolzki

It’s not clear how these health-cost/heal-blocking skills are expected to be played. It might make more sense if there was a reasonable heal in the vampire skill line.

If (for example) drain put a tether heal on the target while in melee range and wasn’t a channel then that would be a reasonable play style for these health cost skills. Maybe not meta but something unique for vampires.

Otherwise bfb could appear in the ultimate slot while in the scion form. Again we get unique and usable vampire play with the healing coming from scion. We could use bfb in scion mode only without sacrificing a skill slot.

Currently vampire gets skills that block group healing and cost heath on a skill line without a viable self heal. What’s the intended play style for this skill line?

SlimeBro1

Kolzki wrote: »

It’s not clear how these health-cost/heal-blocking skills are expected to be played. It might make more sense if there was a reasonable heal in the vampire skill line.

If (for example) drain put a tether heal on the target while in melee range and wasn’t a channel then that would be a reasonable play style for these health cost skills. Maybe not meta but something unique for vampires.

Otherwise bfb could appear in the ultimate slot while in the scion form. Again we get unique and usable vampire play with the healing coming from scion. We could use bfb in scion mode only without sacrificing a skill slot.

Currently vampire gets skills that block group healing and cost heath on a skill line without a viable self heal. What’s the intended play style for this skill line?

I can agree completely.

They haven't actually clarified the intended play style for the skill line. Honestly, it is all over the place! It's like multiple designers mashed their heads together and each threw in something. But the issue there is they all had different ideas for the play style.

Like im chill with vampire having health cost abilities. But with no heal? What kind of design is that? Also why are we a melee line with no mobility or gap closer?

Vevvev

[Quoted content removed]

I have been using Arterial Burst since its first iterations on the PTS before Greymoor came out. I went with this morph because I'm a PVPer and using health for anything is pretty much shooting yourself in the foot each time.

That being said the ability isn't all that great due to its lack of secondary effects. I didn't pick Arterial Burst for the guaranteed crit but instead for its damage scaling based on missing health and the fact it offsets the sustain hit I take for picking vampire, but not nearly to the degree Blood for Blood does.

This nerf to Eviscerate and its morphs actually hits Arterial Burst pretty bad. It doesn't look like much, 33% down from 50%, but what this means is you'll have to take even more risks with lower health to get the same numbers as before. If you saw my comment on the first page of this thread you'll see where I pointed out that after this nerf to get the same damage potential of a Power Lash proc from Flame Lash on Eviscerate I'd need to be very close to 50% HP, whereas right now it is closer to 60% HP. The nerf is having you basically at Execution range for decent burst which is a no go for many magicka builds, which is what vampires are.

For PVE Arterial Burst will not offset the non-vampire cost increase very well due to the fact it still costs magicka. Sure it'll be cheaper to cast but everything else you'll need to make a proper DPS build is going to cost more, which will directly cut into your sustain. Good news is it procs frags for sorcs so that's a plus for them, but the bad news is its melee.

[Edit to remove quoted content]

[Deleted User]

Hello everyone,

Recently we've had to remove a few posts for bait, content that is against the Forum Rules. For further posts be sure to stay constructive and respectful to avoid thread derailment or action on one's own account.

Thank you for understanding.

Xebov

DT-ARR wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

SlimeBro1 wrote: »

DT-ARR wrote: »

What they should have done was scaled the no heal penalty based on vampire stage.

Stage 4 vamp doesnt disable outside heals at all.

Stage 3 vamp disables outside heals for 2 seconds.

Stage 2 vamp disables outside heals for 4 seconds.

Stage 1 vamp disables outside heals for 5 seconds.

Or something to that effect.

This actually would be a great incentive for peeps who want more reason to play stage 4.

I doubt that. Higher stages have the cost increase. This means that higher stages make it harder to sustain the build portion that uses non vampire skills, but this in turn would make the vampire less preferable. The spamable would likely cost you more sustain than any other spamable which would defeat the reason to use it over something else that maybe has slightly less damage.

Vampire, like WW is a borderline skillline. It either gets strong enought to become meta (like now) or it tips over to the other side. You will never see this skill line becoming a side grade.

Personally i feel like every vamp ability needs to scale with stage. Its not enough to simply reduce the cost via the passive.

Either increase the damage or add some defensive passive or something per skill. This would drastically increase the incentives to play vamp the way ZOS has intended. Aka not simply for a cost reduce passive or singular skill ala BfB.

Incredibly disappointing that they are so narrow minded and heavy handed with their approach.

The problem with scaling on stages is that you have 10+2 skillslots but only 5+1 abilities. This means that, unlike with WW, balancing always needs to look at combinations. Its next to impossible to hit that sweet spot where Vampires become a nice and fun sidegrade. Thats also partially the fault of the community because ppl like to get upgrades instead of sidegrades.