They are really going to let these vampire eviscerate changes go to live?

SlimeBro1

I find it astounding they haven't touched up on vamp at all. Well, I'm looking forward to the skill line being even more dead. Perhaps then it'll get to a point to where they have to look at feedback to find out where they went wrong.

Kinda disgusting it's been 4 weeks and we haven't had a single vamp change to the proposed changes yet.

Taleof2Cities

Have you tested the changes on PTS, @SlimeBro1?

Or is this just another "sky is falling" new thread with no testing or evaluation feedback to support the argument ... ?

Tannus15

@Taleof2Cities How do you test "no heals from anyone" for 5 seconds?

Why do you need to test it? if you can't receive heals you can't do content where you need heals. It's pretty obvious that you can't.

SlimeBro1

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Have you tested the changes on PTS, @SlimeBro1?

Or is this just another "sky is falling" new thread with no testing or evaluation feedback to support the argument ... ?

Just as @Tannus15 said, what is there to test? Lower damage scaling + no heal from allies for 5 seconds on a melee ability. why do I need to download the PTS to say that change is utter trash?

And.....there have been a few other threads about this topic with evaluation feedback and in-depth thoughts and testing on this subject. Would recommend looking around the PTS side of the forums.

Unless you're going to sit there and tell me that this change is good. Or if you somehow don't see how it is blatantly terrible then.....not sure what to tell you.

Cadbury

-looks at Arterial Burst-

"So hi. I'm looking for a new mag spammable. Are you available?"

SlimeBro1

Cadbury wrote: »

-looks at Arterial Burst-

"So hi. I'm looking for a new mag spammable. Are you available?"

Considering they are nerfing the damage scaling on that morph too, Im not sure if even if it will be worth slotting tbh.

Tannus15

Part of the reason B4B was so tempting is that builds with sustain issues could run it for a "free" spammable.
It had a down side which is if you use it too much at the wrong time you could die and it's a melee ability which isn't always ideal. Personally I think it does too much damage for what I think of as a sustain spammable, but whatever.

The scaling nerf on it would probably be enough to bring it in line, but the healing nerf kills it dead in the water. It's not "sub optimal" it's "you cannot use this in trials because you'll die".

SlimeBro1

Tannus15 wrote: »

Part of the reason B4B was so tempting is that builds with sustain issues could run it for a "free" spammable.
It had a down side which is if you use it too much at the wrong time you could die and it's a melee ability which isn't always ideal. Personally I think it does too much damage for what I think of as a sustain spammable, but whatever.

The scaling nerf on it would probably be enough to bring it in line, but the healing nerf kills it dead in the water. It's not "sub optimal" it's "you cannot use this in trials because you'll die".

Can agree tbh. The damage nerf is fine, whatever, but the no healing in groups? Good lord. Also I don't think the damage nerf to arterial burst is justified, should of just applied to BfB I feel?

Vevvev

SlimeBro1 wrote: »

Cadbury wrote: »

-looks at Arterial Burst-

"So hi. I'm looking for a new mag spammable. Are you available?"

Considering they are nerfing the damage scaling on that morph too, Im not sure if even if it will be worth slotting tbh.

It'll be very hard to justify it. I did the math and in order to hit similar damage numbers equivalent to something like Power Lash on Flame Lash I'd need to be at 50% health. Before I didn't need to get that low to get similar numbers so now the skill will be even more risky to use. Its only redeeming quality will be its price compared to other magicka spammables and the fact it has a slightly higher initial damage on hit, but with the magicka cost increase on all non-vampire stuff its usefulness is coming into question.

On a side note imagine trying to use Blood Frenzy and Blood for Blood at the same time when this patch goes live. Unless you have a powerful offensive heal its really going to suck.

Olupajmibanan

When Blood Frenzy was actually strong on Greymoor PTS, nobody complained about the inability to get healed by others and have run it freely with 1 self healing ability, for example Critical Surge or Burning Embers.

I don't get why this is not the case now? B4B still offers you free and strong spammable, you just need to slot a self healing ability.

IonicKai

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

When Blood Frenzy was actually strong on Greymoor PTS, nobody complained about the inability to get healed by others and have run it freely with 1 self healing ability, for example Critical Surge or Burning Embers.

I don't get why this is not the case now? B4B still offers you free and strong spammable, you just need to slot a self healing ability.

The difference is that blood frenzy is a toggle. You can turn it off to get heals when you need and and have it on when you don't. That just puts it behind a skill wall. Bfb has a 5 second window where you can't be healed by others after each cast. That means you would need to know 5 seconds ahead of time for when to stop using your spammable and switch to something that wasn't bfb for that high damage time window. That is in addition to having a self heal for the low damage period because it's pretty rare to be taking zero damage in trials for long periods of time. This is something beyond the overwhelming majority of players and even the best players could mess this up. It's not worth the risk for such little reward as the only thing it really brings now is sustain. They nerfed damage and put it behind an insane skill wall for all but easy dungeons that you can kill everything before it can fight back.

Ventru7

I don't know if anyone using blood frenzy but it is such a wonky skill to use.I don't understand how it wasn't touched with these patches.

Thannazzar

TBH Im not sure why people were expecting changes to whats been announced.

ZOS has a history of using the PTS and its users as free beta/bug testing and never takes feedback or implements suggestions for changes.

This is definitely the wrong time to be alienating players given the other games due for release in the next quarter but Im assuming that only a significant hit in the profit margin will provoke a change of behavior.

Aznarb

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

When Blood Frenzy was actually strong on Greymoor PTS, nobody complained about the inability to get healed by others and have run it freely with 1 self healing ability, for example Critical Surge or Burning Embers.

I don't get why this is not the case now? B4B still offers you free and strong spammable, you just need to slot a self healing ability.

Also note that healing synergy work (flower, ritual, orb, altar) and life steal from healer or tank work too since it's not directly a heal from allies (tested on live with blood frenzy).

katorga

To be honest, having skills cost health is a bad design decision.

Either your passive healing is greater than the health cost and it becomes free and BiS - BfB and Thrassians.

Or, the health drain is too great and the skill becomes useless - frenzy.

The line between OP and useless is so thin, that it cannot be balanced.

RebornV3x

doesn't surprise me tons of feedback and threads gets completely ignored I wonder why they even have official feedback threads just to ignore it all I still remember that 60+ page thread for sorc shield changes years ago that got ignored so eh gone for 8 months glad to know things never change around here.

SlimeBro1

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

When Blood Frenzy was actually strong on Greymoor PTS, nobody complained about the inability to get healed by others and have run it freely with 1 self healing ability, for example Critical Surge or Burning Embers.

I don't get why this is not the case now? B4B still offers you free and strong spammable, you just need to slot a self healing ability.

As others have said, the difference here is this is a spammable ability. One you will always be using as a dps. The healing negation lasts for 5 seconds after casting, which is insane.

Also not to mention they are nerfing the damage of eviscerate over all. So now the skill is a melee ranged health spammable that denies healing from allies and deals less dmg than your class spammable.

newtinmpls

Ever since the "redesign" of Vamp, and the totally annoying and dorky ulti, I pretty much haven't used my Vamp powers. Not gonna try and cure it, but most of the cool factor is gone and it's too annoying to calculate "using the skills" VS "getting killed by poor skill choices" and looks like it's only going to get harder/worse.

To the people who have successfully navigated the changes - go you! You are a more complex and skillful player with this part of the game than I currently aspire to be.

SlimeBro1

newtinmpls wrote: »

Ever since the "redesign" of Vamp, and the totally annoying and dorky ulti, I pretty much haven't used my Vamp powers. Not gonna try and cure it, but most of the cool factor is gone and it's too annoying to calculate "using the skills" VS "getting killed by poor skill choices" and looks like it's only going to get harder/worse.

To the people who have successfully navigated the changes - go you! You are a more complex and skillful player with this part of the game than I currently aspire to be.

The skill line needs a lot of revision tbh. But those that apparently know how to make use of these trashy skills won't tell you that!

Evemir

The problem is much deeper than it seems. The thing is that if the nerf of a single morph from a vampire line is able to kill whole vampirism in pve completly - it means that this is a very bad skill line and the rework failed completely.

I believe that they need to seriously consider options about how to make the rest of the skills at least somewhat attractive in pve for players who want to play as vampires.

Initially, they tried to make people play through vampire abilities, rather than through passive ones, but in the end it will only lead to the fact that vampires will only be played for RP and solo ganks in Cyrodiil.

The problem is not only in B4B, the problem is in the entire skill line as a whole.

Vevvev

You know, now that I think of it ZOS could have just simply made Blood for Blood a ranged or stamina morph of eviscerate and it'd have fixed the problem and made one group of people happy.

SlimeBro1

Evemir wrote: »

The problem is much deeper than it seems. The thing is that if the nerf of a single morph from a vampire line is able to kill whole vampirism in pve completly - it means that this is a very bad skill line and the rework failed completely.

I believe that they need to seriously consider options about how to make the rest of the skills at least somewhat attractive in pve for players who want to play as vampires.

Initially, they tried to make people play through vampire abilities, rather than through passive ones, but in the end it will only lead to the fact that vampires will only be played for RP and solo ganks in Cyrodiil.

The problem is not only in B4B, the problem is in the entire skill line as a whole.

I agree completely. When your entire line revolves around a single morph in PvE is insane.

It's a badly designed skill line, that is that. The fact that some people can't see that riding on 1 morph is bad is horrid design is also equally as insane. You'll find a few against the majority vote of agreeing the skill line is trash that try to fight for "well the skill line does have its uses and is very good, best thing since sliced bread" My man, if this many people are having an issue with the skill line and if it'll be this heavily effected by this change objectively that means it is horribly designed.

SlimeBro1

Vevvev wrote: »

You know, now that I think of it ZOS could have just simply made Blood for Blood a ranged or stamina morph of eviscerate and it'd have fixed the problem and made one group of people happy.

If they made BfB a ranged morph a ton of people would be overly happy. At this point, they should do it tbh.

Vevvev

SlimeBro1 wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

You know, now that I think of it ZOS could have just simply made Blood for Blood a ranged or stamina morph of eviscerate and it'd have fixed the problem and made one group of people happy.

If they made BfB a ranged morph a ton of people would be overly happy. At this point, they should do it tbh.

Agreed, and they could maybe have it deal more damage based on how long ago you drained someone with Vampiric Drain or Feed instead of missing health. Then again that's wishful thinking so lets just stick with it being ranged being the special morph effect.

ManM

With this change, nothing in the skill line will be good for end-game min/maxing. I dare say, this is working as intended. The message is very clear: if you want to optimize for trials and such, don't be a vampire. If you want to have fun running around in overland content murdering unsuspecting NPCs, vampire is an option.

IonicKai

ManM wrote: »

With this change, nothing in the skill line will be good for end-game min/maxing. I dare say, this is working as intended. The message is very clear: if you want to optimize for trials and such, don't be a vampire. If you want to have fun running around in overland content murdering unsuspecting NPCs, vampire is an option.

I do think this is kinda the vision that ZOS has right now. That's too bad because it was an option with pros and cons now (though the pros were stronger in cases where it was easy to use such as melee friendly trials). Now vamps only redeeming quality is the speed sneak that is useful in a handful of dungeons or of course the skill line as a whole if you like RP.

Evemir

ManM wrote: »

With this change, nothing in the skill line will be good for end-game min/maxing. I dare say, this is working as intended. The message is very clear: if you want to optimize for trials and such, don't be a vampire. If you want to have fun running around in overland content murdering unsuspecting NPCs, vampire is an option.

Sure. The only problem is that if you choose the second, the first will be closed to you. While with werewolves there is no such problem.
Werewolves are not a meta, they can't give out top dps and are not the best build in the game. But they are not bad. They can deal a decent dps, so as not to be kicked out of the group, as well as at any time can remove the transformation from the skillpanel and de-facto stop being werewolves.

A vampire doesn't have it all. He punishes you for trying to play a vampire, you will give out less damage and you will not be able to be healed, and you can not just stop being a vampire, even if you decide to make a normal build-penalties will remain

So vampirism is the ONLY thing in the game that focuses EXCLUSIVELY on overland and makes you WEAKER in the rest of the content.

There are no more such things in the game. Werewolf is suitable for group pve, although it is not a meta. A werewolf doesn't make you any weaker until you turn into a wolf.

This is literally the ONLY thing that binds your character to exclusively overland content. Once again, there are no such things in the game anymore. No skill line makes you weaker in the rest of the content. Does not bind your character exclusively to RP. This is clearly a game design problem.

P.S. If your want to run around murdering unsuspecting NPCs then you can use dark brotherhood skill line THAT ALSO DON'T HAVE ANY PENATLIES

Tannus15

Evemir wrote: »

The problem is much deeper than it seems. The thing is that if the nerf of a single morph from a vampire line is able to kill whole vampirism in pve completly - it means that this is a very bad skill line and the rework failed completely.

I believe that they need to seriously consider options about how to make the rest of the skills at least somewhat attractive in pve for players who want to play as vampires.

Initially, they tried to make people play through vampire abilities, rather than through passive ones, but in the end it will only lead to the fact that vampires will only be played for RP and solo ganks in Cyrodiil.

The problem is not only in B4B, the problem is in the entire skill line as a whole.

the spammable is the keystone around which the whole thing revolves though, since vamp increases the cost of non skill line abilities, you can't afford to run vamp skills as utilities with a non vamp spammable, it'll be unsustainable.

that doesn't mean that the other skills are bad, but it does mean that the whole thing lives or dies by that spammable.

Tannus15

@Evemir This is a great point and the reason I've been curing Vamp where I've got a couple of WW with no skills in the line, because why not?

Vamp should only apply penalties if you have a skill slotted (on either bar) imo. I don't care if it's lore breaking, at least the skill line would be optional.

Olupajmibanan

Tannus15 wrote: »

Evemir wrote: »

The problem is much deeper than it seems. The thing is that if the nerf of a single morph from a vampire line is able to kill whole vampirism in pve completly - it means that this is a very bad skill line and the rework failed completely.

I believe that they need to seriously consider options about how to make the rest of the skills at least somewhat attractive in pve for players who want to play as vampires.

Initially, they tried to make people play through vampire abilities, rather than through passive ones, but in the end it will only lead to the fact that vampires will only be played for RP and solo ganks in Cyrodiil.

The problem is not only in B4B, the problem is in the entire skill line as a whole.

the spammable is the keystone around which the whole thing revolves though, since vamp increases the cost of non skill line abilities, you can't afford to run vamp skills as utilities with a non vamp spammable, it'll be unsustainable.

that doesn't mean that the other skills are bad, but it does mean that the whole thing lives or dies by that spammable.

If the decision about B4B was a first step in reviving vamp, than it's well made. Because whole skill line revolving around one specific morph is a bad design. But if it ends here and the one morph that was clearly better and the only reason to pick an optional skill line was brought in line (favourite ZoS's phrase) with the rest of skills, than vampire will be choice exclusive to RP.

Hotdog_23

Who I feel sorry for is the healer who is wasting mana trying to heal someone who can't be healed. How will they know? Bad design move as part of the trilogy for dungeon and trial runs, Tank, healer and 2DD's.

Be safe and have fun