Veteran Mode for questing

volkeswagon

i can't really understand those that feel the only way they can enjoy the game is if its really tough and challenging. There is so much more to this game that seems to be overlooked by combat addicts. Or maybe they aren't capable of enjoying things that more simple, relaxing, humorous and social based like trading, housing, fishing, collecting, farming, etc. I am all for a alternative server for the hardies buy they would probably just need one server to fill that demand and not a separate na and eu one. If they made it harder for everyone then I would find another game.

casparian

volkeswagon wrote: »

i can't really understand those that feel the only way they can enjoy the game is if its really tough and challenging. There is so much more to this game that seems to be overlooked by combat addicts. Or maybe they aren't capable of enjoying things that more simple, relaxing, humorous and social based like trading, housing, fishing, collecting, farming, etc.

Please don’t characterize people who have different tastes and viewpoints as “addicts” who “aren’t capable” of what you are. That doesn’t help the situation at all. People enjoy different playstyles, and currently ESO is failing to meet certain playstyles. That’s OP’s main point, and there’s no call for you and other casual PVEers to get personal about it.

idk

exeeter702 wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Or should max level players only ever have a single trial and some new sets/skill lines to look forward to with a new chapter?

I am a max level player and I have no problem with having fun while experiencing new quests and stories of the chapter or story DLC (if those quests and stories are well written and don't try to promote some ugly idea).
So if some max level players have problems with experiencing this content, this is the problem of those some players. There are too few of them to waste server resources on additional veteran mirrors (instances), as well as developer time and resources.

Hey, if you feel steamrolling through overland obstacles and killing main antagonists at the end of a lengthy quest lines in 4 seconds is a compelling experience more power to you. But video games are in the unique postion over any other story telling medium wherein you can actually engage the audience in the story through gameplay challenge, and nothing and I mean nothing, takes the wind of the sails of a well written video game narrative delivery (greymoor is not that mind you) then having the final encounter to said narrative be an absolutely wash.

I enjoy the storyline as that is what the main purpose and focus of the stories are. It also seems to be a very successful business model to have a tiered difficulty design like what we have here in ESO with the storyline quests being fairly easy and vet HM trials being the more challenging. It seems to be very profitable for the largest MMORPGs of today's time.

Rudrani

Yes please!

Give vet instances of the zones. Who cares if they are underpopulated, that makes it more difficult, and thats the whole point.

We dont want to make ourselves weak we want to play more interesting content. Also we want better rewards for accomplishing more difficult things. Its doesnt have to be more garbage set drops, it would be fine if there was just a multiplier on the gold reward, and throw in more transmutes (stuff that end-game players usually actually need).

Olauron

exeeter702 wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Or should max level players only ever have a single trial and some new sets/skill lines to look forward to with a new chapter?

I am a max level player and I have no problem with having fun while experiencing new quests and stories of the chapter or story DLC (if those quests and stories are well written and don't try to promote some ugly idea).
So if some max level players have problems with experiencing this content, this is the problem of those some players. There are too few of them to waste server resources on additional veteran mirrors (instances), as well as developer time and resources.

Hey, if you feel steamrolling through overland obstacles and killing main antagonists at the end of a lengthy quest lines in 4 seconds is a compelling experience more power to you. But video games are in the unique postion over any other story telling medium wherein you can actually engage the audience in the story through gameplay challenge, and nothing and I mean nothing, takes the wind of the sails of a well written video game narrative delivery (greymoor is not that mind you) then having the final encounter to said narrative be an absolutely wash.

Completely disagree. Nothing takes the wind of the sails of a well written narrative more then the final encounter being not possible to be experienced. If you can experience the whole story and it is good story, then it is good story. This is also true for the video games. Challenge and story don't work together very well. You can see it in single-player RPGs, where the most challenging encounters are usually optional and sometimes don't even have some story background at all.

Zardayne wrote: »

Added difficulty so vets can enjoy the old content as well as all future expansions with their main or a new character with a friend. Being able to enjoy all of a game instead of 2 or 3 dungeons/trials feels like a better deal for $50. More $ for ZOS.

It is reasonable to assume that people who want veteran overland are mostly the people who have done vMA. We have words from the developers, that this number is very small.

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Let the game stays easy as it is, because a lot of people wanted it, by why don't throw players some veteran version of some content just to give more options and freedom of choice?

It is wrong to cure symptoms instead of the disease. The disease is power creep and the difference between new (or unexperienced) players and veteran players. Curing the disease, by the way, will potentially solve not only the overland problem (for those, who think that there is problem), but also the dungeons and trials problem.
Of course, if the problem is actually the effort to complete the content and not the ego of those, who are upset, because they have nothing to show off from overland. If the problem is actually with the egos, then the only right way developers can solve this problem is to crush those egos into dust.

TwinLamps

This would be great

Add overland veteran mode with perfected sets as rewards

eKsDee

This is a problem that will constantly be brought up, but never addressed, because the unfortunate reality is that the vast majority of players are dependent on the game being as easy as it is, and Zenimax knows it. If you're looking for challenge in overland content, it's best to just go play another MMO that offers the experience you like. I've found a good middle ground in Guild Wars 2, maybe you should give it a go, too.

Luke_Flamesword

It is reasonable to assume that people who want veteran overland are mostly the people who have done vMA. We have words from the developers, that this number is very small.

It's not reasonable - it's not my case I wrote in my previous post that there is often too big gap beetwen easy nad hard content in this game. I'm good player but not hardcore so most of content of game is for too easy or too hard to be fun. Why don't you understand that power creeps are very little number of players, but there are still a lot of simple 810 CP players who have experience, good gear and most of game is too easy for them. Why even having veteran version of any content bothers you? Nobody force you to use it. It's selfish to write that we don't need this beacuse you don't see a point. I and many other player see a point of this...

Olauron

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

It is reasonable to assume that people who want veteran overland are mostly the people who have done vMA. We have words from the developers, that this number is very small.

It's not reasonable - it's not my case I wrote in my previous post that there is often too big gap beetwen easy nad hard content in this game. I'm good player but not hardcore so most of content of game is for too easy or too hard to be fun. Why don't you understand that power creeps are very little number of players, but there are still a lot of simple 810 CP players who have experience, good gear and most of game is too easy for them.

Because those who have 10 000, 20 000 or 30 000 dps will not notice the difference in difficulty of the content, made for such dps. Making "veteran" content with optimal 30 000 dps instead of optimal 10 000 dps will be a complete waste of time, as the differense will be minimal. On the other hand, for those who have 40 000+ dps (especially much more), it will be not enough, but they are in so small numbers that reworking the whole system just for them is not worth the money.
Now you can say, that it is not only about dps. Well, then we are coming back to vMA, where there are a lot of mechanics and it will be "too hard" for most. At the same time for not so experienced players (or for player with higher latency) there are enough mechanics already (almost every mob in delve has something that will root, stun or anything else).

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Why even having veteran version of any content bothers you? Nobody force you to use it. It's selfish to write that we don't need this beacuse you don't see a point. I and many other player see a point of this...

There are three reasons:
1) if there are better rewards, then "mobody force you" is false;
2) when developers are doing something that I don't need, they are not doing something that I need (or want), and I can agree with the needs of majority (even if those are not my needs), but will never agree with the needs of minority;
3) dealing with the symptoms instead of dealing with the disease is a wrong approach from the development point of view and should never be used.

Naftal

Why are so many people again thinking that the veteran mode would REPLACE the current mode, forcing every new player into content they cannot do?

Like dungeons, veteran and normal modes are seperate. Players who can't do veteran can do the normal mode.

Luke_Flamesword

Because those who have 10 000, 20 000 or 30 000 dps will not notice the difference in difficulty of the content, made for such dps.

I wrote about Craglorn group delves or instances like Skyreach - for me it's gold spot - it's not too difficult to be frustrating but also harder than default overland. I don't die like crazy but also I can use every skill in my bars before every enemy dies and this is what I want - chance to have fights longer than 1-2 seconds.

1) if there are better rewards, then "mobody force you" is false;

Content should be simplier than vMA or vet DLC dungeons or vet Arenas so if you are really want everything - it will be easier there. I don't like rewards hidden in hardcore content like vet DLC trials but I know that some players need this so I don't complain that this exist... If you have every reward from hardcore content then there is no problem for you. If you don't like me - you can see that already you won't get everything so what's the problem. Otherwise Craglorn already exist in game and all I want is more this Craglorn difficulty - this is not nothing fancy.

2) when developers are doing something that I don't need, they are not doing something that I need (or want), and I can agree with the needs of majority (even if those are not my needs), but will never agree with the needs of minority;

And how do you know that's minority problem? Do you know how many endgame player there are thirsty of some challenge? Are you a voice of whole playerbase?

3) dealing with the symptoms instead of dealing with the disease is a wrong approach from the development point of view and should never be used.

What symptoms? I wrote it before - we don't want hardcore content for power creeps with 80k DPS. Somethng like 20-30k DPS will be better. You can nerf power creeps but you can't make level 1 players powerfull as 810 CP player after year of playing game. There must be progress so overland will be always too easy for endgame player. You can't nerf so much endgamers so only solution for this is making special content for them.

Ei8htba11

Make Craglorn great again?

Rework the area, change the delves up a bit, maybe implement some different world bosses (to refresh the zone) and make it hard again. I remember when I started playing Craglorn was rumored to be a horrible place to go, you'd get wrecked if you weren't geared, skilled and grouped.

It's not.

Make it great again, where grouping up and being savvy would practically be essential if anything meaningful were to be done. The rest of the world could then be as it is. Casual/new players would have all of Tamriel, and Craglorn would get a reputation again.

Olauron

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

I wrote about Craglorn group delves or instances like Skyreach - for me it's gold spot - it's not too difficult to be frustrating but also harder than default overland. I don't die like crazy but also I can use every skill in my bars before every enemy dies and this is what I want - chance to have fights longer than 1-2 seconds.

Don't worry, with the 3 sec cooldown on AoE fights will be longer than 1-2 seconds.
Thing is, it is extremely easy to low your own dps to the level you find appropriate to be not too difficult and not too easy. Remove heals - don't use DoTs - don't recharge enchants - don't weave. This is not something that needs extra eveloper time and resources to do. For example, one of my characters has just MG rune and PO imbue weapon as damaging skills. He is much slower in killing enemies than other characters.

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Content should be simplier than vMA or vet DLC dungeons or vet Arenas so if you are really want everything - it will be easier there. I don't like rewards hidden in hardcore content like vet DLC trials but I know that some players need this so I don't complain that this exist... If you have every reward from hardcore content then there is no problem for you. If you don't like me - you can see that already you won't get everything so what's the problem. Otherwise Craglorn already exist in game and all I want is more this Craglorn difficulty - this is not nothing fancy.

Craglorn is rather empty even now (I am not talking about LfGs for trials, I am talking about people actually doing delves and group content), extra nirn rewards are not enough. The second problem is where to draw the line. There are as many opinions about it as there are players. For your "I want it just like Craglorn" there will be "I want it 2 times harder than Craglorn", "I want it 2 times easier than Craglorn", "I want it 10 times harder than Craglorn" and everything in between, with the result that no one line will be good for everyone. So how many new lines should we draw? How many tiers of veteran content? And for what? So that some fraction of veteran players spent extra 5 hours on chapter story instead of not spending it?

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

And how do you know that's minority problem? Do you know how many endgame player there are thirsty of some challenge? Are you a voice of whole playerbase?

Endgame players are already a minority of the whole player base (otherwise ZOS would not remove veteran zones). Those who need veteran story content and don't want to play easy story content are a part of the minority. Those who will agree on a particular line to draw (on a particular level of veteran difficulty) are a minority of the part of the minority.

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

What symptoms? I wrote it before - we don't want hardcore content for power creeps with 80k DPS. Somethng like 20-30k DPS will be better. You can nerf power creeps but you can't make level 1 players powerfull as 810 CP player after year of playing game. There must be progress so overland will be always too easy for endgame player. You can't nerf so much endgamers so only solution for this is making special content for them.

Of course, you will not make new players as effective as 810 CP players (though levelling of ESO does try to do this with the result that 1 level alt characters of 810 CP players are extremely effective). Still, if you nerf power creep so that instead of a maximum of 100k+ dps you will have 30k dps (with group buffs) / 20k dps (solo), you will get much less complains that overland is too easy and much less complains that veteran content is too hard. When the difference between good and not good is 2 times instead of 10 times, balancing any content is much easier.

Luke_Flamesword

Don't worry, with the 3 sec cooldown on AoE fights will be longer than 1-2 seconds.

You know that this will be in Cyrodiil for now only and so they can seperate this there is no reason to limit PvE

When the difference between good and not good is 2 times instead of 10 times, balancing any content is much easier

I agree with you - maybe ZOS should lower max DPS possible at the sime time with adjusting power of endgame content and then make some veteran difficulties. It will be easier.

For know I feel stuck in the middle between low DPS and power creeps. Some people only wants to spam one skill and cry that everything is too hard, and some are so hardcore that 50k+ content is easy and boring for them so they always want more. What I can do as normal player who learned how to play and have 810 CP, but also just want normal fun, not masochist hardcore meta "fun".

I like idea od flattening endgame damage and giving balanced content for that.

Robo_Hobo

I'm still hoping for a response some time too, I've already quit now and probably won't be back until something is done about it. My main reason for playing is the questing and I do love the stories, I just can't enjoy them in the current state and no matter how many times and different ways I try to nerf myself to oblivion to make it work, it just doesn't feel satisfying.

eKsDee

Robo_Hobo wrote: »

I'm still hoping for a response some time too, I've already quit now and probably won't be back until something is done about it. My main reason for playing is the questing and I do love the stories, I just can't enjoy them in the current state and no matter how many times and different ways I try to nerf myself to oblivion to make it work, it just doesn't feel satisfying.

Probably never gonna be one. The vast majority of players are too invested in the current state of overland, changing it at all would spell chaos and would likely lose Zenimax their main source of revenue. They know it, so I'm sure they're not even entertaining the thought. Sucks, because I'm in the same boat, love the questing and stories, but just can't play when there's literally nothing else except story. All flavour, with no texture.

exeeter702

eKsDee wrote: »

Robo_Hobo wrote: »

I'm still hoping for a response some time too, I've already quit now and probably won't be back until something is done about it. My main reason for playing is the questing and I do love the stories, I just can't enjoy them in the current state and no matter how many times and different ways I try to nerf myself to oblivion to make it work, it just doesn't feel satisfying.

Probably never gonna be one. The vast majority of players are too invested in the current state of overland, changing it at all would spell chaos and would likely lose Zenimax their main source of revenue. They know it, so I'm sure they're not even entertaining the thought. Sucks, because I'm in the same boat, love the questing and stories, but just can't play when there's literally nothing else except story. All flavour, with no texture.

I do recall Matt Firor commenting on overland / quest difficulty and max level players in the past so who knows.

I as well am in the same boat. I simply cant be bothered anymore. Arbitrarily nerfing oneself to inject an artificial difficulty level into your own experience is fundamentally a failure in game design as far as I'm concerned.

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

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