Update 47 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/680228
Maintenance for the week of July 7:
· [COMPLETE] Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – July 9, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – July 9, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
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Thank you ZOS for not forcing PVP down our throat!

WhyMustItBe
WhyMustItBe
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After reading about Ashes of Creation being YET ANOTHER game with great potential that instead opted to throw it all away to force PVP even to the extreme that guilds of griefers get to decide what cities will even exist in the game, and what they look like, and also Amazon's new game delayed until 2021 partially due to feedback on THEIR forced PVP system, it is stunning to see so many developers failing or outright refusing to learn the lessons of history and trashing the potential revenue of their own games!

It is mind boggling to the point of madness, which makes me all the more grateful for ESO's existence!

Imagine going back to WoW to enjoy playing through the Blood Elf starter zone for nostalgia's sake, only to find it completely destroyed and remade with spiked orc buildings and undead green slime. That is the sort of Game Ashes of Creation devs decided to make. A game where the hardcore PVP crowd not only goes around ruining everyone else's questing and gameplay with crafter ganking and hub camping like Black Desert, but actually gets to prevent other players from even enjoying the architecture they prefer, or quest hubs they enjoy and identify with, unless they engage in a hostile, rage-inducing hyper-aggressive form of gameplay they simply LOATH.

[snip]

This completely undermines the IDENTITY of the game, where you have classic zones and sites you know and love with memories attached as it devolves rapidly into a world that looks only like what the hardcore PVP crowd wants, and we all know, there are legions of people who for whatever reason make it their sole purpose in life to destroy things they know other people enjoy, so there is every reason to believe it will stay that way.

What a travesty the gaming industry has become, catering to the type of people who just like to screw over other people for kicks. Next thing we'll be selling dongles you plug into your USB port as a supplement to games that allow other players to actively kick you in the balls any time you log in. I swear the gaming industry has lost it's damn mind!

Thanks for existing, ESO! The only thing you could do to improve the separation of church and state stance on PVP (which is as it should be) would be making abilities and sets do different things in PVP zones vs. PVE content so that you could balance the two separately, allowing greater freedom and creativity in both unique aspects of gameplay without changes to one inevitably hurting the other.

[Edited to remove Advertising]
Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on August 9, 2020 10:43AM
  • idk
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    I really do not see how many who play ESO would care about Ashes or New World. Besides, what is said about Ashes seems out of context as the devs have suggested that the opt-out system for opting out of PvP will be designed to be meaningful.

    Regardless, I do not see the point of coming to the ESO forums to complain about other games (or advertise for them)

  • WhyMustItBe
    WhyMustItBe
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    To clarify, it goes something like this:

    1) Thank you ESO for how you handle PVP.
    2) Cites examples of why it is a good decision by comparing to other games that do it differently.
    3) Make suggestion for possible further improvement:
    The only thing you could do to improve the separation of church and state stance on PVP (which is as it should be) would be making abilities and sets do different things in PVP zones vs. PVE content so that you could balance the two separately, allowing greater freedom and creativity in both unique aspects of gameplay without changes to one inevitably hurting the other.

    Hope that helps. :)
  • RavenRoxie
    RavenRoxie
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    After reading about Ashes of Creation being YET ANOTHER game with great potential that instead opted to throw it all away to force PVP even to the extreme that guilds of griefers get to decide what cities will even exist in the game, and what they look like, and also Amazon's new game delayed until 2021 partially due to feedback on THEIR forced PVP system, it is stunning to see so many developers failing or outright refusing to learn the lessons of history and trashing the potential revenue of their own games!

    It is mind boggling to the point of madness, which makes me all the more grateful for ESO's existence!

    Imagine going back to WoW to enjoy playing through the Blood Elf starter zone for nostalgia's sake, only to find it completely destroyed and remade with spiked orc buildings and undead green slime. That is the sort of Game Ashes of Creation devs decided to make. A game where the hardcore PVP crowd not only goes around ruining everyone else's questing and gameplay with crafter ganking and hub camping like Black Desert, but actually gets to prevent other players from even enjoying the architecture they prefer, or quest hubs they enjoy and identify with, unless they engage in a hostile, rage-inducing hyper-aggressive form of gameplay they simply LOATH.

    [snip]

    This completely undermines the IDENTITY of the game, where you have classic zones and sites you know and love with memories attached as it devolves rapidly into a world that looks only like what the hardcore PVP crowd wants, and we all know, there are legions of people who for whatever reason make it their sole purpose in life to destroy things they know other people enjoy, so there is every reason to believe it will stay that way.

    What a travesty the gaming industry has become, catering to the type of people who just like to screw over other people for kicks. Next thing we'll be selling dongles you plug into your USB port as a supplement to games that allow other players to actively kick you in the balls any time you log in. I swear the gaming industry has lost it's damn mind!

    Thanks for existing, ESO! The only thing you could do to improve the separation of church and state stance on PVP (which is as it should be) would be making abilities and sets do different things in PVP zones vs. PVE content so that you could balance the two separately, allowing greater freedom and creativity in both unique aspects of gameplay without changes to one inevitably hurting the other.

    ashes was always supposed to be able pvp........................... that was always the point of the game....................... just like new world and crowfall........... people like pvp in multiplayer games and personally i wish zenimax would put more effort towards cyro like they used to.
    Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on August 9, 2020 10:44AM
    Phantogram DC | Wood Elf | Magicka Nightblade/ | DPS | 856cp
    False Paradox | AD | Wood Elf | Non Combative Nightblade | Crafter | 856cp
    @RoxieParadoxx | Twitch | Twitter
  • Aznarb
    Aznarb
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    What the problem with PvP based MMORPG ? It's not the 1st one you know ?
    Lineage 2, WoW, AA are few exemple and their was all very popular.
    Not any mmorpg need to be PvE.

    Imo New world will fail to be a good game, they had a good idea, then ear all pve player crying about a pvp game, change to please them to make more money, ruined pvp.
    No way it succeed.

    If you want a PvE mmorpg then look for them like I do, don't look about PvP game crying for change.
    Saga of Lumicia and Pantheon : Rise of the falling are the two big PvE MMORPG with 0 PvP I wait for.
    [ PC EU ]

    [ Khuram-dar ]
    [ Khajiit ]
    [ Templar - Healer ]
    [Crazy Gatherer & Compulsive Thief]

  • Everstorm
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    While I am not into PvP much myself you only have to look at the immense succes of games like Fortnite to see that there are plenty of people who like it.
  • Dusk_Coven
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    After reading about Ashes of Creation being YET ANOTHER game with great potential that instead opted to throw it all away to force PVP even to the extreme that guilds of griefers get to decide what cities will even exist in the game, and what they look like

    This sounds like a sinister monetization scheme.
    Once they start building and get invested in what is "theirs" they will need to regularly log in lots of people to protect it.
    Somewhere in there I'm sure pay to win will show up and people desperate to keep what is "theirs" will buy advantages.
    It's a development of the early Wartune games where everyone's got a castle that can be attacked at any time -- so you either keep logged in, or you buy an 8-hour protection item from their cash shop so you can go offline "safely".

    Even in ESO open world PvP, at least losing a keep doesn't have major consequences. Even losing a map. You can jump in at any time and start playing -- and more importantly, you can stop playing at any time too.

    So many PvPers here don't realize how good they have it a ESO. Instead they keep undermining it with exploiting, cheating, and dragging the community into a skid-row with their griefing.
    Edited by Dusk_Coven on August 9, 2020 7:56AM
  • Bucky_13
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    Played WoW on PvP server, prefer ESOs version and do enjoy Cyro a lot. But also enjoy not getting attacked while doing surveys.

    One thing that I do miss from open world PvP in WoW which I would love to see in ESO is to attack your opposing faction leaders. Add a castle or similar in all 3 capital cities and enable PvP inside it, then add rewards for both defending and killing the leaders .
  • Eliran
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    The PVP in this game is so ***, focrcing it would make them bankrupt.

    Its not that they do it on their own good will, its that they cant fix it to the point they gave up.
  • madarame_77
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    That's why I left Eve Online, because there everything that is player owned can be destroyed by other players. So you had to be able to constantly log in (sometimes at night) to protect your territory/or attack enemy territory. Imagine setting your alarm clock at 3.00 because it's the timer when enemy keepstar citadel becomes vunerable. It became a second job (night job) after a while and not fun anymore. And games are supposed to be fun, not like a second job. Don't think I ever go back there.
    Edited by madarame_77 on August 9, 2020 8:29AM
  • Luke_Flamesword
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    And games are supposed to be fun, not like a second job.
    Exactly - game is for you, not you for a game. It's important rule to have healthy gaming experience :)
    PC | EU | DC |Stam Dk Breton
  • Kadoin
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    I want to think ZOS for offering so little for access to my pocketbook. That's good, right?
  • CMDR_Un1k0rn
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    Nothing wrong with PvP, and like it or not OP but that's the design intention of that game from the start. Not everything is made for you.
    In-game username: Un1korn | Happy member of the PCNA UESP guild (Resident Daggerfall Covenant enjoyer) | Main & basically only character: Crucian Vulpin, Imperial Dragonknight of the Daggerfall Covenant, and Undaunted Bulwark (I tank) | Mountain bike enjoyer and vulpine appreciator | If you know me from PCEU: No | To ZOS: THANK YOU FOR LETTING ME BRING MY HORSE INTO BATTLE!
  • VaranisArano
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    Outside of the two zones designed for it, Cyrodiil and Imperial City, I appreciate not having PVP mixed up in my PVE. I like having to deliberately queue up for my PVP-enabled zones. It puts me in control of deciding whether to risk PVP or not.
  • BigBragg
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    Remember when people were brought over from Dark Age of Camelot to Zenimax Online Studios to make Elder Scrolls Online with the endgame focus being the Three Banners War? A culmination of the stories of your faction that lead you to participating in the struggle for Cyrodiil and capture the Ruby Throne.
    Edited by BigBragg on August 9, 2020 1:18PM
  • Decimus
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    This is the kind of forum thread I couldn't disagree with more.

    The premise that there are "PvErs", and then the "toxic PvPers" is a false one, when in reality there are plenty of people who are interested in both PvE & PvP and want to have them intertwined for dynamic, meaningful PvX gameplay.


    You don't want to engage in PvP? Go do a dungeon, go play a single player (or co-op) RPG - plenty of options out there that provide a better experience in watching butterflies or whatever you do in game.

    All I can say from the POV of someone who has done all the questing & "enjoying the architecture" 19 times is that it gets pretty damn boring after the first playthrough, as there's no PvP happening during that level up process or anything that'd make it different from the last playthrough.


    There's a reason ESO has one of the worst player retention rates in the industry.

    16 Million players was mentioned in QuakeCon, how many can we find in battlegrounds? The same 30-40 names.

    Cyrodiil is empty half the time, and lagging the other half with less population than it used to have back in the days, holding maximum 500 concurrent players per campaign at locked pop as far as I know. We used to have 30 campaigns with max cap of 2000 players, we're down to 3 that are literally empty half the time.

    The last time we got anything new for PvP was Morrowind, 3 years ago, which introduced the extremely flawed BG system that has only lost features ever since it was added.

    Last time a new BG map was added was February 2019. We've had the exact same sets as BG rewards since the introduction of Battlegrounds. These sets get instantly vendored as they're worth nothing.

    Ability to play Battlegrounds with friends was removed, and the game is still missing Ranked/Unranked and many other staple features almost every other MMO has.

    2v2/3v3 Arenas, another staple feature most MMOs have off the box are also still missing.


    Why? Because of entitlement of players who think 99% of the game should be tailored for them.

    Don't be surprised when lots of players (especially streamers) who appreciate ESO for its combat system leave for greener pastures the moment a MMO launches that cares more about its PvP player base than Zenimax.

    When every PvX player is gone and dungeon queues suddenly start taking hours, we'll see how you feel about this game and its lacking features.
    Edited by Decimus on August 9, 2020 1:38PM
    PC/EU @ DECMVS
  • Sylvermynx
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    The thing is, there are millions of players around the world who do love all out pvp. Which is why there are so many games in development pointed towards those players I suppose. I'm okay with pvp in this game and I was okay with pvp in WoW and RIFT (which games were the last times I pvp'd).

    As to pvp being the original endgame, it doesn't matter to me, as I no longer mess with anything endgame either - no trials etc. Did all that years back in WoW and RIFT, no more interest in it, and no reflexes for it at my age now. I love having a game I can play to suit myself at this point in time. And since TES is my main franchise, at least there's ESO - 'cause I'm not sure there will ever be a TES VI.

    Huh. Maybe ESO IS TES VI?
  • TequilaFire
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    All I know is every morning I wake up an watch the news and thank my lucky stars we can still play video games at least for now.
  • Rungar
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    Im pretty sure they had to change to survive. Nothing wrong with pvp but a aaa mmorpg cant have it as the focus of the game, only a sideshow....if they want to make money. Most who pvp dont want to build a character so they play simpler games like fortnite or call of duty.

    Daoc was my favorite mmo but it was a niche game ruined with trials because they didnt understand their core audience. I feel zos has that problem as well sometimes though in zos's case its trying to appeal to too many groups and dissapointing nearly all of them.

    Not enough trials
    Dungeons not designed for pugs
    Expansions too small
    Not enough variety in pvp.

  • Sindala
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    Never done PvP since i started back in Beta.
    Lol, just thought i'd share :D
    Being First is not the prize, it just mean's everyone can stab you in the back.
  • Rungar
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    All I know is every morning I wake up an watch the news and thank my lucky stars we can still play video games at least for now.

    Molag bal and his legions of daedra are certainly making a final play. Hold on to your soul because its going to get rough.
  • mareeelb16_ESO
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    Except that if/when rapid manoeuvre is swapped with vigour in the alliance war assault skill line plenty of people will feel as though they do have to pvp.

    I get that it's a choice and that the speed buff isn't essential but it's going to be a big unwelcome change being without it.

    Meanwhile, with that in mind I tried to do a BG on one of my alts this afternoon. I'm really pretty bad at BGs by my own admission... but I tried my best. Unfortunately that clearly wasn't good enough for one of my team who kindly chastised me for joining pvp 'if I wasn't going to play'.

    I'm definitely not saying that toxicity doesn't exist in PvE - because we (nearly) all know that it does but it wasn't a great experience... and I'm afraid that regardless, I will be repeating the whole exercise until I've at least got to level 5 in that skill line in spite of how bad other people think I am and how unpleasant the whole thing is for me.

    That doesn't feel like a choice.
  • Raisin
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    You don't need to bash things you don't like to compliment things you do like.

    There's nothing inherently wrong with a game that combines PvE and PvP. Just because it's not your taste, doesn't mean it's an inferior concept. No game is forcing anything down your throat. The gameplay is what it is and you can choose to play it because it appeals to you, or choose to avoid it because it doesn't appeal to you.

    The absolute hatred people seem to put in their rants against gameplay they don't favor is absolutely ridiculous. How do you even get to a point where you have such a superiority complex about something that's clearly just different tastes? Just because a game doesn't cater to your specific preference doesn't mean it's throwing something away. Its not worse just because you don't like it. Your taste isn't better than others', and going on about how stupid a game developer would be for pleasing a different target audience's supposedly inferior preferences just makes you look like a prick. You present yourself as infinitely more toxic, hateful and judgemental than these hypothetical evil PVPers whose entire description is a mountain of hyperboles.
  • Athyrium93
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    I've got to agree with OP, I like that pvp is a choice, I don't want to get ganked while questing or gathering, that said, I'm starting to love pvp in this game, and wish it got a bit more love from developers, but yeah, splitting the two is the right choice in my opinion!
  • Davor
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    I will add in my thank you, since I tried Desert Online, but stopped for the second main reason. Forced PvP after level 50. I believe only reason ESO is the way it is, is because it's the easiest way for Zenimax to make money since I think most ESO players are PvE and not strictly PvP. Only reason I keep playing ESO since I am a PvE player.

    I guess I am the bane for people who want PvP. Sorry. :)
    Not my quote but I love this saying

    "I would pay It for support. But since they choosed we are just numbers and not customers, i dont mind if game and zos goes to oblivion"
  • WhyMustItBe
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    Decimus wrote: »
    This is the kind of forum thread I couldn't disagree with more.

    The premise that there are "PvErs", and then the "toxic PvPers" is a false one, when in reality there are plenty of people who are interested in both PvE & PvP and want to have them intertwined for dynamic, meaningful PvX gameplay.

    I'm sorry if you misunderstood, but this interpretation of the OP could not be farther from the truth.

    This thread is not about PVE vs. PVP. That is just how lots of people have been conditioned to view any thread about the topic. I am 100% in favor of PVP in games. This thread is about why not FORCING PVP and allowing people to CHOOSE whether they must engage in PVP in order to experience game content is a GOOD thing.

    So long as games allow you to not flag for PVP when doing all available content, but have the OPTION for PVP, then I am for it.

    The problem is one of developer naiveté on the part of most of the game industry. It seems they want to believe that we live in a perfect world where people will never grief or camp quest hubs or gank crafters or intentionally go out of their way to prevent other players from enjoying the game content, driving away customers, if they force no-choice PVP into the world without designated servers or instances for people who don't want that.

    This is sadly NOT the way many (not all) have been proven to act in REALITY, and it only takes a few bad apples to spoil the game for everyone. It is a nice dream though.

    In reality many people CANNOT control their impulses. They absolutely DO make it their goal in life to grief other players if given the chance. No, not all people. In fact most PVP players are decent human beings who just want to have fun in the game like everyone else.

    HOWEVER, as you see with Black Desert and other forced-PVP games, there are enough players that grief, gank, and go out of their way to hurt other players and keep them from enjoying content that it spoils the game for everyone. Now we have developers making that behavior a core mechanic of the game, and they wonder why they hit maintenance mode long before the earning levels of competing games that have the sense to give players CHOICE.

    That is why this thread is merely pointing out that keeping PVP an OPTION in MMOs where you either CHOOSE to flag for PVP mode, roll on a PVP server, or opt to enter PVP instanced zones, is the ONLY way to run a successful multiplayer game, specifically of the RPG genre.

    Otherwise we have this constant "us vs. them" PVE vs. PVP hostility that only ruins the community and the game for everyone.

    I hope that helps to clarify my position of NOT being "anti-PVP."
  • Klad
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    I think that making ESO's end game all about PVP was ridiculous, but I have to give them props for recovering.

    Honestly the best thing ZoS could do to make PVP viable is to end the stupid Three Banners War and go with an improved version of the arena system, give it it's own story line, provide sets of gear just as good as Trial drops, and an achievement list on steroids.
  • Decimus
    Decimus
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    Decimus wrote: »
    This is the kind of forum thread I couldn't disagree with more.

    The premise that there are "PvErs", and then the "toxic PvPers" is a false one, when in reality there are plenty of people who are interested in both PvE & PvP and want to have them intertwined for dynamic, meaningful PvX gameplay.

    I'm sorry if you misunderstood, but this interpretation of the OP could not be farther from the truth.

    This thread is not about PVE vs. PVP. That is just how lots of people have been conditioned to view any thread about the topic. I am 100% in favor of PVP in games. This thread is about why not FORCING PVP and allowing people to CHOOSE whether they must engage in PVP in order to experience game content is a GOOD thing.

    So long as games allow you to not flag for PVP when doing all available content, but have the OPTION for PVP, then I am for it.

    The problem is one of developer naiveté on the part of most of the game industry. It seems they want to believe that we live in a perfect world where people will never grief or camp quest hubs or gank crafters or intentionally go out of their way to prevent other players from enjoying the game content, driving away customers, if they force no-choice PVP into the world without designated servers or instances for people who don't want that.

    This is sadly NOT the way many (not all) have been proven to act in REALITY, and it only takes a few bad apples to spoil the game for everyone. It is a nice dream though.

    In reality many people CANNOT control their impulses. They absolutely DO make it their goal in life to grief other players if given the chance. No, not all people. In fact most PVP players are decent human beings who just want to have fun in the game like everyone else.

    HOWEVER, as you see with Black Desert and other forced-PVP games, there are enough players that grief, gank, and go out of their way to hurt other players and keep them from enjoying content that it spoils the game for everyone. Now we have developers making that behavior a core mechanic of the game, and they wonder why they hit maintenance mode long before the earning levels of competing games that have the sense to give players CHOICE.

    That is why this thread is merely pointing out that keeping PVP an OPTION in MMOs where you either CHOOSE to flag for PVP mode, roll on a PVP server, or opt to enter PVP instanced zones, is the ONLY way to run a successful multiplayer game, specifically of the RPG genre.

    Otherwise we have this constant "us vs. them" PVE vs. PVP hostility that only ruins the community and the game for everyone.

    I hope that helps to clarify my position of NOT being "anti-PVP."

    Except there really isn't a "choice " for the PvPer if the only enemies you can fight in 99% of content are NPCs.

    ESO does not have the option to even toggle for PvP in open world (not that it was ever designed for that), though they did float the idea with the early designs of justice system.


    No, the only choice a PvPer can make in this game is whether they want to lag their brains out in Cyrodiil or face the same 30-40 people over and over again in a badly designed BG system that developers don't give a *** about.

    Oh and duels, where we still don't have the option to do something basic such as challenge someone into a noCP duel.


    PvErs can choose between 40 dungeons (normal/veteran), 9 trials (normal/veteran), two 4-man arenas (normal/veteran), a solo arena (normal/veteran), 34 zones & hundreds of delves etc.

    Maybe you can see the disparity and why the word "choice" doesn't really apply equally here.


    You're also mistaken about the game you're talking about; developers of that said MMO have mentioned multiple times that there is a "corruption system" in place which places severe penalties on those who'd gank or grief people not interested in PvP. They will drop gear, incur xp penalties & bounty hunters will be able to see their location and hunt them for rewards.

    Much better than taking away the choice of attacking someone from players by allowing others to toggle off PvP entirely.


    I'm under no illusions as to whom ESO caters for, they'll never add any kind of meaningful conflict to this game. But to bash other MMOs that choose to do so? Smh.

    If anything ZOS should be looking at what those developers are doing right and why that other game has attracted a massive following, despite not even being out yet, rather than continue bleeding long time customers bored of getting the same PvE in different packages presented to them 4 times a year.
    Edited by Decimus on August 9, 2020 10:38PM
    PC/EU @ DECMVS
  • Snowgoons
    Snowgoons
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    Decimus wrote: »
    This is the kind of forum thread I couldn't disagree with more.

    The premise that there are "PvErs", and then the "toxic PvPers" is a false one, when in reality there are plenty of people who are interested in both PvE & PvP and want to have them intertwined for dynamic, meaningful PvX gameplay.


    You don't want to engage in PvP? Go do a dungeon, go play a single player (or co-op) RPG - plenty of options out there that provide a better experience in watching butterflies or whatever you do in game.

    All I can say from the POV of someone who has done all the questing & "enjoying the architecture" 19 times is that it gets pretty damn boring after the first playthrough, as there's no PvP happening during that level up process or anything that'd make it different from the last playthrough.


    There's a reason ESO has one of the worst player retention rates in the industry.

    16 Million players was mentioned in QuakeCon, how many can we find in battlegrounds? The same 30-40 names.

    Cyrodiil is empty half the time, and lagging the other half with less population than it used to have back in the days, holding maximum 500 concurrent players per campaign at locked pop as far as I know. We used to have 30 campaigns with max cap of 2000 players, we're down to 3 that are literally empty half the time.

    The last time we got anything new for PvP was Morrowind, 3 years ago, which introduced the extremely flawed BG system that has only lost features ever since it was added.

    Last time a new BG map was added was February 2019. We've had the exact same sets as BG rewards since the introduction of Battlegrounds. These sets get instantly vendored as they're worth nothing.

    Ability to play Battlegrounds with friends was removed, and the game is still missing Ranked/Unranked and many other staple features almost every other MMO has.

    2v2/3v3 Arenas, another staple feature most MMOs have off the box are also still missing.


    Why? Because of entitlement of players who think 99% of the game should be tailored for them.

    Don't be surprised when lots of players (especially streamers) who appreciate ESO for its combat system leave for greener pastures the moment a MMO launches that cares more about its PvP player base than Zenimax.

    When every PvX player is gone and dungeon queues suddenly start taking hours, we'll see how you feel about this game and its lacking features.

    100% true.

    My 2 cents also:

    It's fine when PVPers are forced to PVE, but not fine to force PVE players to PVP, go figure that logic.
    Rollin' round Tamriel on that skooma wasted like a failed Grand Theft Auto mission.
  • Vaoh
    Vaoh
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    Decimus wrote: »
    This is the kind of forum thread I couldn't disagree with more.

    The premise that there are "PvErs", and then the "toxic PvPers" is a false one, when in reality there are plenty of people who are interested in both PvE & PvP and want to have them intertwined for dynamic, meaningful PvX gameplay.


    You don't want to engage in PvP? Go do a dungeon, go play a single player (or co-op) RPG - plenty of options out there that provide a better experience in watching butterflies or whatever you do in game.

    All I can say from the POV of someone who has done all the questing & "enjoying the architecture" 19 times is that it gets pretty damn boring after the first playthrough, as there's no PvP happening during that level up process or anything that'd make it different from the last playthrough.


    There's a reason ESO has one of the worst player retention rates in the industry.

    16 Million players was mentioned in QuakeCon, how many can we find in battlegrounds? The same 30-40 names.

    Cyrodiil is empty half the time, and lagging the other half with less population than it used to have back in the days, holding maximum 500 concurrent players per campaign at locked pop as far as I know. We used to have 30 campaigns with max cap of 2000 players, we're down to 3 that are literally empty half the time.

    The last time we got anything new for PvP was Morrowind, 3 years ago, which introduced the extremely flawed BG system that has only lost features ever since it was added.

    Last time a new BG map was added was February 2019. We've had the exact same sets as BG rewards since the introduction of Battlegrounds. These sets get instantly vendored as they're worth nothing.

    Ability to play Battlegrounds with friends was removed, and the game is still missing Ranked/Unranked and many other staple features almost every other MMO has.

    2v2/3v3 Arenas, another staple feature most MMOs have off the box are also still missing.


    Why? Because of entitlement of players who think 99% of the game should be tailored for them.

    Don't be surprised when lots of players (especially streamers) who appreciate ESO for its combat system leave for greener pastures the moment a MMO launches that cares more about its PvP player base than Zenimax.

    When every PvX player is gone and dungeon queues suddenly start taking hours, we'll see how you feel about this game and its lacking features.

    ^^^^^^^^^^
    Pretty much exactly this.

    Also I will say that Ashes of Creation overall is looking to be a solid MMO despite its very early state, and could become a massively popular game. Especially from recent PvE gameplay looking so pretty.

    ESO is an Elder Scrolls game and came after Skyrim’s colossal success. Also consider nostalgia expansions such as Morrowind (Vvardenfell), Oblivion (Gold Coast), and Skyrim (Western Skyrim, soon Eastern Skyrim), with the 2021 chapter likely to be in based on Cyrodiil.

    As much as I love this game, I won’t be blind to how utterly mismanaged ESO has been. Deteriorating game performance and an out of touch combat team have been detrimental to an otherwise amazing game.
  • JB_den
    JB_den
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    That's why I left Eve Online, because there everything that is player owned can be destroyed by other players. So you had to be able to constantly log in (sometimes at night) to protect your territory/or attack enemy territory. Imagine setting your alarm clock at 3.00 because it's the timer when enemy keepstar citadel becomes vunerable. It became a second job (night job) after a while and not fun anymore. And games are supposed to be fun, not like a second job. Don't think I ever go back there.

    I was going to mention EVE too for the same reasons. People there still expect you to be a F1 drone too, taking orders from a FC you most likely won't like. The PVE in that game sucks hard as well. How the heck is that fun? It's not.
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