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Enough. We need PvP - PvE skill effect separation

  • gongxizhirwb17_ESO
    agree OP,if dont separate,PVP and PVE will be messed up together.
    at this time,change skill's mechnice,CC or what else is a diffcult work.
    and you can see in pts,some skill effect is different from pvp and pve,i suppose ZOS was think about it and will test it
  • Aznarb
    Aznarb
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    Atherakhia wrote: »
    ayu_fever wrote: »
    just remove pvp.
    problem solved.

    LOL! You do realize this was originally marketed as a PvP game right? If anything, PvE should be an afterthought.

    You see a "PvP" label, who just promote the fact than PvP gonna be available has it gonna be the main purpose ?
    An Elder Scroll game "based" on PvP ? If you had thinking twice about it you'll have seen the trap :>

    The thing that make this license (TES) have so many fan is the PvE and the Deep Lore aspect, PvP was just a bonus to catch people like you who love this kind of thing in mmorpg.

    Look at New world who are doing the same thing but for PvE, obviously a PvP based game, but now they want to make some PvE to catch people who don't like PvP too.

    It's just marketing dude.

    Edit : Just so you don't get it wrong, both mod should be enjoyable. I won't speak about balance cuz it never happen in MMORPG, but performance should be way better. They're trying many thing to improve it now, we know it's a new team and they've to correct lot of error from the previous team, not an easy job.

    Also, just ignore people who say thing like "remove X from the game" it's not like they'r contributing to anything.
    Edited by Aznarb on August 1, 2020 1:39AM
    PC - EU

    All class - Healer

    coming back to try change

    My English is far from perfect but I try my best !
  • Kadoin
    Kadoin
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    jecks33 wrote: »
    disagree 100%. you're asking them to balance two different games, essentially.


    pvp and pve ARE 2 different games

    I don't know, my PvP tank is immortal in both PvE and PvP...
  • Major_Lag
    Major_Lag
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    ayu_fever wrote: »
    just remove pvp.
    problem solved.
    No worries. ZOS is already working hard on it. :)
    /s
  • JohnOfMarkarth
    JohnOfMarkarth
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    Aznarb wrote: »
    Atherakhia wrote: »
    ayu_fever wrote: »
    just remove pvp.
    problem solved.

    LOL! You do realize this was originally marketed as a PvP game right? If anything, PvE should be an afterthought.

    You see a "PvP" label, who just promote the fact than PvP gonna be available has it gonna be the main purpose ?
    An Elder Scroll game "based" on PvP ? If you had thinking twice about it you'll have seen the trap :>

    The thing that make this license (TES) have so many fan is the PvE and the Deep Lore aspect, PvP was just a bonus to catch people like you who love this kind of thing in mmorpg.

    Look at New world who are doing the same thing but for PvE, obviously a PvP based game, but now they want to make some PvE to catch people who don't like PvP too.

    It's just marketing dude.

    Edit : Just so you don't get it wrong, both mod should be enjoyable. I won't speak about balance cuz it never happen in MMORPG, but performance should be way better. They're trying many thing to improve it now, we know it's a new team and they've to correct lot of error from the previous team, not an easy job.

    Also, just ignore people who say thing like "remove X from the game" it's not like they'r contributing to anything.

    this line of argument belongs to its own thread not here thanks. (i do not specify if i agree or disagree)
    #offtopic

    (edit edit edit: *** quoting)
    Edited by JohnOfMarkarth on August 1, 2020 6:15AM
    Reach belongs to the Reachmen. Nords, Bretons sod off... I do wonder why am supposed to be an enemy of the Orcs. We had good relations with them for centuries. Hrokkibek bless your hunt
  • SlimeBro1
    SlimeBro1
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    Atherakhia wrote: »
    There's a reason not one MMO does this. It's because players don't want skills they have to behave one way in one game mechanic and a different way in another mechanic. I'm also not sure the problems with this game are at all PvP related. They're largely mechanical and a result of poor design.

    With your example, what would you want the skill to do? Nothing but damage in PvP but knockback targets in PvE? Why? Your example isn't even relevant to the larger complaints people have with PvP.

    Guild Wars 2 does this. They have certain skill do certain things in PvP vs PvE
    Edited by SlimeBro1 on August 1, 2020 8:49AM
  • ecru
    ecru
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    Every other game does this to an extent. Different abilities have different effectiveness in pve vs pvp. One heal might heal for 80% less in pvp, another 50% less in pvp, one ability might do 60% less damage and another 75% less, etc. This is how balance has always been achieved in basically every other game. ESO tries to balance every single ability around the same flat reduction and that leads to them having to make changes that *** off both sides of the game, since there always has to be some kind of compromise. If they did away with this absurd way of trying to balance everything and just balanced abilities individually, the game would be much better off in pve and pvp.
    Gryphon Heart
    Godslayer
    Dawnbringer
  • Ozby
    Ozby
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    yes I agree OP trying to have everything balanced like this is ridiculous and were going around in circles.
    PC NA
    Aurora Bravepaw (Healden), Basks in Fire (DKTank), Bran Artlion (Magplar), Brindel Seedthorne (Stamden WW), Brugo Gargak (Stamcro), Casimir Delmar (StamDK), Falco Bastion (Stamsorc), Fus Ro Dah (Stamplar), Gandalff the Gay (Petsorc), Jo-Qinan Betula (Magden), Laveera Hex (Magcro), Raine Whitestag (Stamden), Raised by Bears (Wardentank), Ralak Rotheart (Healcro), Selene Sunshadow MagDK), Shadow Mirage (NBTank), Slythe Rattlebone (Healplar), Ulfnor Dragonslayer (Tankcro).
  • Strider__Roshin
    Strider__Roshin
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    Vevvev wrote: »
    Atherakhia wrote: »
    ayu_fever wrote: »
    just remove pvp.
    problem solved.

    LOL! You do realize this was originally marketed as a PvP game right? If anything, PvE should be an afterthought.

    Neither should be an afterthought. As much as I love PVP and hate PVE due to its repetitiveness we should never leave one behind. I will admit the Planetside 2 style PVP is what originally drew me into ESO alongside the Elder Scrolls brand, but to make PVE an afterthought is silly considering the IP's history and fan base.

    I think it was because we could already get PvE from the previous game, but PvP was a new concept to the elder scrolls, and man was it awesome back in the day! But now it doesn't have too many options for good PvE and the PvP has been bad for a while as well as the combat. Ironic eh? Most games feel better over time so long as they continuously get updated. I guess that's what makes ESO unique.
  • Maleforge
    Maleforge
    Soul Shriven
    Having a different skill tree for PVP would break only one barrier existing between it and PVE.

    Even with similar roles, the morphs to choose for PVP and PVE are often differents. In other games, a skill is a skill and keeping PVE equipment doesn't make you unable to move beyond 25 meters from the spawning point.

    Morphs for PVP should simply be PVP skills.
    The equipement barrier would still be there, but the player would navigate far easier between PVE and PVP.

    But the problem just start from there.
    Actually, the game is all over the place. Stamina classes do not function well without Vigor in solo, a skill they can find in PVP skills instead of the more logical fighter tree.
    In PVP, Magicka classes can't function without active defenses but still have to invest in stamina for basic defenses, so they need to be more damaging for the smaller attack window they have, which is not the case, so they need more healing. But healing also impact stamina classes, so healing now has to be nerfed. And now, high self-healing classes are the only ones capable to overcome the the negative impact of the nerf and dominate the others who can't even heal each others efficiently because most altruist healing is targeted. What's next, up the nukes on classes without enough slef-healing ? It's endless. And PVE has to follow this madness because… of what ? Coherency of the game ?

    Magicka and Stamina impact damage, so the hybrid builds are not really an option in PVE if you are not a tank. So build variations are very smalls for a game presenting a higly modular concept.

    And then, there's also the item traits useless complications of the itemization system. In PVE, you can still be functionnal without the right traits on every items and suboptimal sets. In PVP, you struggle without less than half the items with the good traits, and you are simply not functionnal without an optimal combination of sets.

    All this knowledge is required to really start playing PVP in ESO. After being level 50, of course. Because before this point, new players learn PVP by being powerless against werewolves and craft master rerolls.

    So I agree that having separate skills for PVP would be an improvement.
    But the game has some other problems, IMO. It overtly favors time consumption and time connection before other considerations (like any good MMORPG…) and it seems that the way it obtains our time consumption has become a big headache for its creators, lol !
  • eKsDee
    eKsDee
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    They've already proven that they're able to scale damage universally in PvP content through Battle Spirit, on top of being able to modify the effect of skills in PvP content, like how old Teleport Strike used to function (stun mobs, snare players). They just need to take it a step further and apply PvP-exclusive damage scaling to skills, or they need to reverse everything so that the game's balanced around PvP, and adjusted for PvE. It's far easier to adjust against a constant (mobs) than it is a variable (players).
  • Kidgangster101
    Kidgangster101
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    Atherakhia wrote: »
    There's a reason not one MMO does this. It's because players don't want skills they have to behave one way in one game mechanic and a different way in another mechanic. I'm also not sure the problems with this game are at all PvP related. They're largely mechanical and a result of poor design.

    With your example, what would you want the skill to do? Nothing but damage in PvP but knockback targets in PvE? Why? Your example isn't even relevant to the larger complaints people have with PvP.

    You clearly don't play every game then if you don't think a game does not do this. In fact you are wrong!

    Ff14 seperated skills in PVP and pve. When you are in pve your moves are the regular moves you level up with.

    When you que into PVP they give you your best combos some buffs and a way to heal yourself (or others if your a healer). These PVP moves have different names even though they interact very similar. In fact some moves in the PVP version got buffs like maybe one move silences or stuns or binds where the pve version doesn't.

    What does this do? If pve is over performing they Nerf pve version and LEAVE THE PVP VERSION ALONE! Same goes for PVP move being to strong/weak. They need/buff PVP version and LEAVE THE PVE VERSION ALONE!

    It works amazing. You are just not used to a dev team that actually knows what they are doing. Just look at one skill (dizzy swing) it had 3 changes in 1 year........ It should have been changed once and moved on knowing the skill was good.
  • Kidgangster101
    Kidgangster101
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    Aznarb wrote: »
    Atherakhia wrote: »
    ayu_fever wrote: »
    just remove pvp.
    problem solved.

    LOL! You do realize this was originally marketed as a PvP game right? If anything, PvE should be an afterthought.

    You see a "PvP" label, who just promote the fact than PvP gonna be available has it gonna be the main purpose ?
    An Elder Scroll game "based" on PvP ? If you had thinking twice about it you'll have seen the trap :>

    The thing that make this license (TES) have so many fan is the PvE and the Deep Lore aspect, PvP was just a bonus to catch people like you who love this kind of thing in mmorpg.

    Look at New world who are doing the same thing but for PvE, obviously a PvP based game, but now they want to make some PvE to catch people who don't like PvP too.

    It's just marketing dude.

    Edit : Just so you don't get it wrong, both mod should be enjoyable. I won't speak about balance cuz it never happen in MMORPG, but performance should be way better. They're trying many thing to improve it now, we know it's a new team and they've to correct lot of error from the previous team, not an easy job.

    Also, just ignore people who say thing like "remove X from the game" it's not like they'r contributing to anything.

    Your last statement...... You know this game performed way better before cp..... And before there were all these crazy proc sets....... So your logic is if someone says those are the problems remove them they aren't contributing to the game?

    You know when people say remove xyz maybe they are into something and know more than you do?
  • Atherakhia
    Atherakhia
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    Atherakhia wrote: »
    There's a reason not one MMO does this. It's because players don't want skills they have to behave one way in one game mechanic and a different way in another mechanic. I'm also not sure the problems with this game are at all PvP related. They're largely mechanical and a result of poor design.

    With your example, what would you want the skill to do? Nothing but damage in PvP but knockback targets in PvE? Why? Your example isn't even relevant to the larger complaints people have with PvP.

    You clearly don't play every game then if you don't think a game does not do this. In fact you are wrong!

    Ff14 seperated skills in PVP and pve. When you are in pve your moves are the regular moves you level up with.

    When you que into PVP they give you your best combos some buffs and a way to heal yourself (or others if your a healer). These PVP moves have different names even though they interact very similar. In fact some moves in the PVP version got buffs like maybe one move silences or stuns or binds where the pve version doesn't.

    What does this do? If pve is over performing they Nerf pve version and LEAVE THE PVP VERSION ALONE! Same goes for PVP move being to strong/weak. They need/buff PVP version and LEAVE THE PVE VERSION ALONE!

    It works amazing. You are just not used to a dev team that actually knows what they are doing. Just look at one skill (dizzy swing) it had 3 changes in 1 year........ It should have been changed once and moved on knowing the skill was good.

    I've never played FF14 so I'll take your word for it as what you've described above makes absolutely no sense to me. But the GW2 example above is wrong as the skills work the same and just do different damage or have different durations (granted I haven't played GW2 in like 5 years or more so maybe things have changed). WoW also does this with diminished returns in PvP.

    Regardless, the point is simple. Skills need to work the same way across the game otherwise players will miss out the immersive feeling an MMO provides. To add further insult to injury, ESO is especially punitive when it comes to swapping things out between specs as the costs can get excessive. Thus the suggestion above about a third morph for skills will not work. Take Sorc for example, they need to swap a single skill for PvP and PvE and that will cost them 2k every time.

    I'm also at a loss for why people feel this is even necessary here. Are people freaking out about the AE changes that are specifically being brought up, not for balance reasons, but server stability reasons? What do people want to behave differently here?

    As I said above, when a player shoots a fireball, they expect it to shoot a fireball. The idea that people in this thread want players to shoot fireballs but this would cause you to plant a flower is not good for the game. And you may think this is being intentionally naive, but the only skill examples we've seen in this thread was someone saying a knockback should be a knockback in PvE but a stun in PvP ignoring the fact that knockbacks are stuns, no one's complaining about knockbacks, and this change would resolve nothing.
  • Asys
    Asys
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    karekiz wrote: »
    No that would be confusing for players going from PvE to PvP.

    Lets redesign the entire class system, ability timers, and core combat instead. That won't confuse people.

    4maqfq60ck8u.gif
    Facts dont care about your feelings.
  • sharquez
    sharquez
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    So there is a precedent for this in other games. Guild Wars comes to mind. Now in that game characters have access to hundreds of skills each with cool-downs and cast times etc, and can have 9 normal abilities and an elite skill. pretty close to what we have going on in this game. it was pretty easy to keep straight what did what, because like anything else all you had to do is read what the ability did. Not confusing at all.

    However we have seen that ESO for some reason refuses to follow well established and logical precedent, for example not being able to team up in battlegrounds. What a wild concept that in an organized balanced team based game play mode you can't make your own teams. Wow I'm playing an MMO that a cannot play with my friends! I cannot think of a single other multiplayer game that has done this. Imagine not being able to party up in Halo?

    but I digress I don't think we will see it, again because ESO does not like to follow the path of tried and true design in some aspects, but would welcome it because finally we can end this silly squabbling about who's to blame for what game play changes, because in the end we all know who is calling the shots here.
    EP Magsorc - Never-Blinks
    EP Magcro- Ebony Maw The Manipulator
    EP Magplar - Sweet-Like-Honey
    EP Stamblade- Pure-paws
    EP MagDK- Rhys Redoran
    EP Stamsorc- Garnag Crow-Father
    EP Magblade- Dandos Direnni
    EP Stamplar- Luzrah gra-Shar
    EP StamDK- Verana Venomtongue
    EP Magden- Frozen-Frog
    EP Stamden- Dro Ma'Thra Savage
    EP DKTank- Sharquez
    EP NB Tank- Dead's Kin
    EP Magcro- Pluto Pollux
    DC Stamplar- Balan At Bergama
    DC Magsorc- Lenendren
    AD Magsorc- Ancanita
  • Marto
    Marto
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    The only way something like this could work as you imagine, is if ZOS also did the same with gear.

    How would you feel about ESO PVP if every single player was wearing 5x Julianos/Hunding's, and 3x Willpower/Agility?

    Would it be balanced? Absolutely. But the biggest appeal of MMO PVP has always been for players to be creative with their gear choices and skill setups.
    "According to the calculations of the sages of the Cult of the Ancestor Moth, the batam guar is the cutest creature in all Tamriel"
  • Kidgangster101
    Kidgangster101
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    Atherakhia wrote: »
    Atherakhia wrote: »
    There's a reason not one MMO does this. It's because players don't want skills they have to behave one way in one game mechanic and a different way in another mechanic. I'm also not sure the problems with this game are at all PvP related. They're largely mechanical and a result of poor design.

    With your example, what would you want the skill to do? Nothing but damage in PvP but knockback targets in PvE? Why? Your example isn't even relevant to the larger complaints people have with PvP.

    You clearly don't play every game then if you don't think a game does not do this. In fact you are wrong!

    Ff14 seperated skills in PVP and pve. When you are in pve your moves are the regular moves you level up with.

    When you que into PVP they give you your best combos some buffs and a way to heal yourself (or others if your a healer). These PVP moves have different names even though they interact very similar. In fact some moves in the PVP version got buffs like maybe one move silences or stuns or binds where the pve version doesn't.

    What does this do? If pve is over performing they Nerf pve version and LEAVE THE PVP VERSION ALONE! Same goes for PVP move being to strong/weak. They need/buff PVP version and LEAVE THE PVE VERSION ALONE!

    It works amazing. You are just not used to a dev team that actually knows what they are doing. Just look at one skill (dizzy swing) it had 3 changes in 1 year........ It should have been changed once and moved on knowing the skill was good.

    I've never played FF14 so I'll take your word for it as what you've described above makes absolutely no sense to me. But the GW2 example above is wrong as the skills work the same and just do different damage or have different durations (granted I haven't played GW2 in like 5 years or more so maybe things have changed). WoW also does this with diminished returns in PvP.

    Regardless, the point is simple. Skills need to work the same way across the game otherwise players will miss out the immersive feeling an MMO provides. To add further insult to injury, ESO is especially punitive when it comes to swapping things out between specs as the costs can get excessive. Thus the suggestion above about a third morph for skills will not work. Take Sorc for example, they need to swap a single skill for PvP and PvE and that will cost them 2k every time.

    I'm also at a loss for why people feel this is even necessary here. Are people freaking out about the AE changes that are specifically being brought up, not for balance reasons, but server stability reasons? What do people want to behave differently here?

    As I said above, when a player shoots a fireball, they expect it to shoot a fireball. The idea that people in this thread want players to shoot fireballs but this would cause you to plant a flower is not good for the game. And you may think this is being intentionally naive, but the only skill examples we've seen in this thread was someone saying a knockback should be a knockback in PvE but a stun in PvP ignoring the fact that knockbacks are stuns, no one's complaining about knockbacks, and this change would resolve nothing.

    People would miss out on the immersive feeling of a MMO if there were seperate moves for PVP and pve?

    I didn't say you would need new morphs. It would just grant you the PVP version when in PVP area.

    So for example you are doing pve content and are using the Templar heal move. Let's say they buff this move for pve to make it heal 4 people (like it used to be). So why did it get nerfed? It was way to strong in PVP. So now it will be the old heal everyone loved.

    But when you que into PVP that move changes and becomes "healing wisdom" where maybe it gets a stronger heal to withstand PVP crazy damage but rather than healing 4 people it now heals you and one other person.

    This wouldn't cost a skill Respec so no gold involved. This allows the devs to Nerf the heal potency if it is too op in PVP without it touching the move in pve........

    That doesn't stop or affect anyone. It in facts helps balance the game to both players. That way you don't upset pve players because it's too op in PVP or vice versa.
  • JohnOfMarkarth
    JohnOfMarkarth
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    People would miss out on the immersive feeling of a MMO if there were seperate moves for PVP and pve?

    I didn't say you would need new morphs. It would just grant you the PVP version when in PVP area.

    So for example you are doing pve content and are using the Templar heal move. Let's say they buff this move for pve to make it heal 4 people (like it used to be). So why did it get nerfed? It was way to strong in PVP. So now it will be the old heal everyone loved.

    But when you que into PVP that move changes and becomes "healing wisdom" where maybe it gets a stronger heal to withstand PVP crazy damage but rather than healing 4 people it now heals you and one other person.

    This wouldn't cost a skill Respec so no gold involved. This allows the devs to Nerf the heal potency if it is too op in PVP without it touching the move in pve........

    That doesn't stop or affect anyone. It in facts helps balance the game to both players. That way you don't upset pve players because it's too op in PVP or vice versa.

    This is exactly what i mean. Some people like to twist it on its head and take it half outta context to fit into their complaint but...
    what i suggest is simple... straight forward and doesnt even need longwinded texts in skill description. All it needs in skill description is:

    "Stuns the target for 5 seconds (2 seconds when applied to player)"
    or
    "Heals yourself and 3 most wounded players for XYZ (Yourelf and 1 most wounded player in a PvP zone)"


    [snip] ...Snip. ... well. To simplify it. If you read that... its not "ungodly complicated" and doesnt make a mess of it. Lets not scream "Werewolf army is attacking us" over a wolf pup at the doorway.


    Side note:
    Atherakhia wrote: »
    I'm also at a loss for why people feel this is even necessary here. Are people freaking out about the AE changes that are specifically being brought up, not for balance reasons, but server stability reasons? What do people want to behave differently here?

    As I said above, when a player shoots a fireball, they expect it to shoot a fireball. The idea that people in this thread want players to shoot fireballs but this would cause you to plant a flower is not good for the game. And you may think this is being intentionally naive, but the only skill examples we've seen in this thread was someone saying a knockback should be a knockback in PvE but a stun in PvP ignoring the fact that knockbacks are stuns, no one's complaining about knockbacks, and this change would resolve nothing.

    1) No. This post was not made in specific look at this patch but at the overall patch history i have followed for years.

    2) Driving examples to extremes does NOT prove a point. And my point was not "resolving a present technical/balance issue" at hand... but to resolve the outstanding game destructive nature of changes that recur with every next patch that rolls. I raised this issue not over the "right now" but over the big picture that has been painted so far.

    Nature of skills is drawn and redrawn on overtly regular destabilizing basis. All due to skills outperforming here... or there. This might not ruin the technical side... but it does ruin the fun factor for many. (oh and do not discard this factor)

    From points you raise, it appears the only time stamp of the game development you look at is the "right now" ... But in next patch they might hit something you damn well wouldnt want reworked the way it was... just for balance of pvp or pve. Then recall this thread again... and consider that it might would be avoided with separated effects.

    Noone calls for flowerpots to land on the ground after you cast a fireball... but the damage it does can be differently scaled, or the duration of DoT different when applied in the two scenarios. Or heal having lowered/raised target count in pvp or pve.

    If split was applied... and not driven to your extreme just to prove a point (which btw destroys the very point you try to get to)... PvP could be balanced without PvE suffering... and vice versa.

    (in addition... the skill i mentioned, that YOU think is the only asked for change... uppercut. Look it up. It indeed does JUST damage. And has no effect other then the damage. Returning throwback to it in pve does not impact pvp, thus not destabilizing it again.)

    EDIT: Syntax correction... I expect to do that a lot on this post... damnable syntax.

    My god, rachel... Half the point of the first thing was taken out by that edit

    [edited for baiting]
    Edited by JohnOfMarkarth on August 6, 2020 8:48PM
    Reach belongs to the Reachmen. Nords, Bretons sod off... I do wonder why am supposed to be an enemy of the Orcs. We had good relations with them for centuries. Hrokkibek bless your hunt
  • Anentet
    Anentet
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    Atherakhia wrote: »
    There's a reason not one MMO does this. It's because players don't want skills they have to behave one way in one game mechanic and a different way in another mechanic. I'm also not sure the problems with this game are at all PvP related. They're largely mechanical and a result of poor design.

    With your example, what would you want the skill to do? Nothing but damage in PvP but knockback targets in PvE? Why? Your example isn't even relevant to the larger complaints people have with PvP.

    Im pretty sure WoW has skills react differently PvE vs PvP... not only that but specific PvP only skills.
    From what I gather with issues in this game, I think it would be a great idea to separate skills depending on what people do. The nerf/buff game because one or the other is ridiculous. I dont want my character nerfed in PvE because in PvP it may be too strong.. so then I'm weaker PvE for no reason.
  • Strider__Roshin
    Strider__Roshin
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    I'd be down for making proc sets only work in PvE. They're terrible for the health of PvP.
    Edited by Strider__Roshin on August 6, 2020 7:28PM
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