A founder and magplars desperate plea
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xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm in agreement with OP's concern here.
Yes it's only a test. But one issue I have is you don't need to test the fact that using abilities less will impact performance - it's common sense. And the other issue I have is if the fix to lag is just a different version of breaking the game, then it's not a good solution.
Yes, losing the spammable will suck, but depending on how this is done and which version, it will effect a lot more than just that skill. Not to mention all AoEs are not created equal so having any blanket effect on all of them is not going to be balanced either.
Testing is all well and good I guess, even if you want to test something that should be obvious and just want the numbers for. But if these are the best options for fixing lag in pvp, then it's not a game that looks interesting to me. Doesn't matter if pvp works if I have no interest in playing it.-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC1 -
qwjr8989_ESO✭✭✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »qwjr8989_ESO wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »If these changes are adopted, they aren't just going to add a cool down to Jabs.
Jabs, as the class spammable, will in all likelihood see a rework that keeps it functioning as a spammable, meaning no ramping cost or cooldown.
These complaints about individual skills make no sense in the context of what ZOS is trying to do. If they go with any of these significant changes to combat , there will be massive changes to skills across the board in an effort to maintain balance and playability. They've already said this is their intention. Don't waste time fretting over specific skills.
Change when? In next 3 months? Nice so not being able to play cyro for 3 months, thanks ZOS seems really fair.
Well, if by "not being able to play Cyro" you mean "choosing not to play during ZOS's Cyro testing," there is no indication it will last three months. It looks like 4 weeks based on their post. Not playing Cyro for a month could suck, but you could play BGs, IC, or modify your build, play Cyro, earn double AP, and contribute to ZOS's testing efforts.
Modify my build? In what universe could I play templar without sweeps, ritual AND bol? What would be the build exactly?
Sweeps - Switch to ranged Magplar
Ritual - doesn't need to be spammed
BOL - add healing ritual to your build and alternate between two the the AOE test doesn't force universal AOE cooldowns
Obviously, Templars are going to struggle during the test, but we all benefit from providing ZOS data. And if any of these AOE changes from the test are adopted, you can expect to substantially modify your build anyways when ZOS does sweeping skill reworks to accommodate the AOE changes.
How do I survive as a ranged magplar when someone jumps on me?0 -
MurderMostFoul✭✭✭✭✭
✭qwjr8989_ESO wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »qwjr8989_ESO wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »If these changes are adopted, they aren't just going to add a cool down to Jabs.
Jabs, as the class spammable, will in all likelihood see a rework that keeps it functioning as a spammable, meaning no ramping cost or cooldown.
These complaints about individual skills make no sense in the context of what ZOS is trying to do. If they go with any of these significant changes to combat , there will be massive changes to skills across the board in an effort to maintain balance and playability. They've already said this is their intention. Don't waste time fretting over specific skills.
Change when? In next 3 months? Nice so not being able to play cyro for 3 months, thanks ZOS seems really fair.
Well, if by "not being able to play Cyro" you mean "choosing not to play during ZOS's Cyro testing," there is no indication it will last three months. It looks like 4 weeks based on their post. Not playing Cyro for a month could suck, but you could play BGs, IC, or modify your build, play Cyro, earn double AP, and contribute to ZOS's testing efforts.
Modify my build? In what universe could I play templar without sweeps, ritual AND bol? What would be the build exactly?
Sweeps - Switch to ranged Magplar
Ritual - doesn't need to be spammed
BOL - add healing ritual to your build and alternate between two the the AOE test doesn't force universal AOE cooldowns
Obviously, Templars are going to struggle during the test, but we all benefit from providing ZOS data. And if any of these AOE changes from the test are adopted, you can expect to substantially modify your build anyways when ZOS does sweeping skill reworks to accommodate the AOE changes.
How do I survive as a ranged magplar when someone jumps on me?
You will die 100% of the time, might as well uninstall.“There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”0 -
Gorreck✭✭✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »Sweeps - Switch to ranged Magplar
Problematic for a melee based Magplar or a Stamplar.
Yeah, stamplar's will have to go with dizzy.
And give up burning light, and minor protection?
The new burning light is literally built around jabs spam, which is already bad enough.
Imagine if dks could only proc burning from ardent flame abilities, but every ability there had the CD.
Also, always great to see so many bad players complain about jabs, one of the easiest to avoid abilities in the game.
Temps will be hit hard, but only during the tests. But ZOS needs the data. No one knows what will happen to temp's skills if these AOE changes are adopted and ZOS does all the necessary rebalancing.
Stamplar would have to be rebuilt from the ground up, without a doubt, as would melee Magplar.2 -
MurderMostFoul✭✭✭✭✭
✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »Sweeps - Switch to ranged Magplar
Problematic for a melee based Magplar or a Stamplar.
Yeah, stamplar's will have to go with dizzy.
And give up burning light, and minor protection?
The new burning light is literally built around jabs spam, which is already bad enough.
Imagine if dks could only proc burning from ardent flame abilities, but every ability there had the CD.
Also, always great to see so many bad players complain about jabs, one of the easiest to avoid abilities in the game.
Temps will be hit hard, but only during the tests. But ZOS needs the data. No one knows what will happen to temp's skills if these AOE changes are adopted and ZOS does all the necessary rebalancing.
Stamplar would have to be rebuilt from the ground up, without a doubt, as would melee Magplar.
Convert jabs/sweeps to undogdable single target spammable?“There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”0 -
kingsforged✭✭✭I like all the "oh it wouldn't affect sweeps" style posts... yet the example the devs used about cooldowns was LITERALLY sweeps...4 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »Sweeps - Switch to ranged Magplar
Problematic for a melee based Magplar or a Stamplar.
Yeah, stamplar's will have to go with dizzy.
And give up burning light, and minor protection?
The new burning light is literally built around jabs spam, which is already bad enough.
Imagine if dks could only proc burning from ardent flame abilities, but every ability there had the CD.
Also, always great to see so many bad players complain about jabs, one of the easiest to avoid abilities in the game.
Temps will be hit hard, but only during the tests. But ZOS needs the data. No one knows what will happen to temp's skills if these AOE changes are adopted and ZOS does all the necessary rebalancing.
Stamplar would have to be rebuilt from the ground up, without a doubt, as would melee Magplar.
Convert jabs/sweeps to undogdable single target spammable?
That would be a little broken, unless they make it still obey major evasion somehow, anyway I don't think they have the capacity to do that.0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »qwjr8989_ESO wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »qwjr8989_ESO wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »If these changes are adopted, they aren't just going to add a cool down to Jabs.
Jabs, as the class spammable, will in all likelihood see a rework that keeps it functioning as a spammable, meaning no ramping cost or cooldown.
These complaints about individual skills make no sense in the context of what ZOS is trying to do. If they go with any of these significant changes to combat , there will be massive changes to skills across the board in an effort to maintain balance and playability. They've already said this is their intention. Don't waste time fretting over specific skills.
Change when? In next 3 months? Nice so not being able to play cyro for 3 months, thanks ZOS seems really fair.
Well, if by "not being able to play Cyro" you mean "choosing not to play during ZOS's Cyro testing," there is no indication it will last three months. It looks like 4 weeks based on their post. Not playing Cyro for a month could suck, but you could play BGs, IC, or modify your build, play Cyro, earn double AP, and contribute to ZOS's testing efforts.
Modify my build? In what universe could I play templar without sweeps, ritual AND bol? What would be the build exactly?
Sweeps - Switch to ranged Magplar
Ritual - doesn't need to be spammed
BOL - add healing ritual to your build and alternate between two the the AOE test doesn't force universal AOE cooldowns
Obviously, Templars are going to struggle during the test, but we all benefit from providing ZOS data. And if any of these AOE changes from the test are adopted, you can expect to substantially modify your build anyways when ZOS does sweeping skill reworks to accommodate the AOE changes.
How do I survive as a ranged magplar when someone jumps on me?
You will die 100% of the time, might as well uninstall.
I play ranged magplar atm, javelin is the best tool you have to peel melee targets.
Anyway you survive the same way you would on melee, cc, block, heal, kite etc.
You always want to play around your cc immunity window for dark flare, make sure you are stacked on detect potz vs Rollerblades etc.0 -
Gorreck✭✭✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »Sweeps - Switch to ranged Magplar
Problematic for a melee based Magplar or a Stamplar.
Yeah, stamplar's will have to go with dizzy.
And give up burning light, and minor protection?
The new burning light is literally built around jabs spam, which is already bad enough.
Imagine if dks could only proc burning from ardent flame abilities, but every ability there had the CD.
Also, always great to see so many bad players complain about jabs, one of the easiest to avoid abilities in the game.
Temps will be hit hard, but only during the tests. But ZOS needs the data. No one knows what will happen to temp's skills if these AOE changes are adopted and ZOS does all the necessary rebalancing.
Stamplar would have to be rebuilt from the ground up, without a doubt, as would melee Magplar.
Convert jabs/sweeps to undogdable single target spammable?
The thing is changing sweep changes a lot of things, Templars have very bad mobility, the reasoning for this is still the "house" idea (which frankly is a bit of a derelict building already, admittedly).
Once you change sweeps to a single target spamable you've GOT to look at mobility (as it to some degree offset the Templars stationary nature) and once you look at that you end up having to change many Templar abilities.
Which I still think leads back to rebuilding the class, which seems like a lot of work when you consider sweeps isn't a ball-group standby.1 -
Danklord✭✭@OP
Dude if this change makes you this emotional over a game. I mean you're clearly very obsessed, then you need a break.
It's a nice lil story you brought but come on dude. I took a break personally when they removed grp queue to BG, because that was what i did 90% in the game with my buddy. I don't make a emotional thread over it, i argued it sure, but this is a bit ridicioulus.
Go take a vacation somewhere, get away from the game for a month or 2, play something different.
All this does is delay your OP spammable by 3 seconds. Jabs for magicka has always been pretty stupid in its strenght for soloing. But delaying a jab by 3 second is not gonna destroy your world dude.
and if the only reason you like Templar is because of a spammable, then you should perhaps look over if you even like the actual class to begin with. It's funny to see you struggle to make liking jabs so much not seem so obsessed and cringe.
Theres other classes that can solo stuff aswell. I really don't get how adding a CD to youir favorite ability somehow equals to "i can't possibly enjoy this game."
Because that means you never enjoyed it to begin with, you only liked spamming 1 ability. Hell you even say it yourself.
tldr: Take a break Op, it's not the end of the world.
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MurderMostFoul✭✭✭✭✭
✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »Sweeps - Switch to ranged Magplar
Problematic for a melee based Magplar or a Stamplar.
Yeah, stamplar's will have to go with dizzy.
And give up burning light, and minor protection?
The new burning light is literally built around jabs spam, which is already bad enough.
Imagine if dks could only proc burning from ardent flame abilities, but every ability there had the CD.
Also, always great to see so many bad players complain about jabs, one of the easiest to avoid abilities in the game.
Temps will be hit hard, but only during the tests. But ZOS needs the data. No one knows what will happen to temp's skills if these AOE changes are adopted and ZOS does all the necessary rebalancing.
Stamplar would have to be rebuilt from the ground up, without a doubt, as would melee Magplar.
Convert jabs/sweeps to undogdable single target spammable?
That would be a little broken, unless they make it still obey major evasion somehow, anyway I don't think they have the capacity to do that.
Idk, it no longer hits more than one target, but major evasion doesn't reduce it's damage. Seems like a fair trade off.“There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”0 -
maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭and if the only reason you like Templar is because of a spammable, then you should perhaps look over if you even like the actual class to begin with.
Jabs is the essence of playing a Templar. Has been it's identity since the beginning. Anyone who mains a Templar will miss it if it's changed drastically. I might find it hard to continue playing a Templar myself. I understand 100% where he is coming from.5 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭and if the only reason you like Templar is because of a spammable, then you should perhaps look over if you even like the actual class to begin with.
Jabs is the essence of playing a Templar. Has been it's identity since the beginning. Anyone who mains a Templar will miss it if it's changed drastically. I might find it hard to continue playing a Templar myself. I understand 100% where he is coming from.
Jabs is definetly the main reason I fell in love with the class.
I started the game as a nightblade at launch, but the first time I came across a jabbing Templar I rerolled straight away.
Which is funny, Beacuse I never liked paladin type classes in any other game, but I do love spears, and Templar is the closest we can get to it.
That being said there is more to Templar than just jabs, cresent sweep is still going to hit hard, javelin is still one of the strongest ranged cc in the game etc.
I defo do not want them to destroy jabs though.
2 -
maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭and if the only reason you like Templar is because of a spammable, then you should perhaps look over if you even like the actual class to begin with.
Jabs is the essence of playing a Templar. Has been it's identity since the beginning. Anyone who mains a Templar will miss it if it's changed drastically. I might find it hard to continue playing a Templar myself. I understand 100% where he is coming from.
Jabs is definetly the main reason I fell in love with the class.
I started the game as a nightblade at launch, but the first time I came across a jabbing Templar I rerolled straight away.
Which is funny, Beacuse I never liked paladin type classes in any other game, but I do love spears, and Templar is the closest we can get to it.
That being said there is more to Templar than just jabs, cresent sweep is still going to hit hard, javelin is still one of the strongest ranged cc in the game etc.
I defo do not want them to destroy jabs though.
Yeah, I know. There is more. But I just ran some dungeons as a Templar Healer/dps. And I can't express how fun it is to lay down some aoe, heals, and then start jabbing away. Feels so natural now. I just love the play style immensely.1 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@OP
Dude if this change makes you this emotional over a game. I mean you're clearly very obsessed, then you need a break.
It's a nice lil story you brought but come on dude. I took a break personally when they removed grp queue to BG, because that was what i did 90% in the game with my buddy. I don't make a emotional thread over it, i argued it sure, but this is a bit ridicioulus.
Go take a vacation somewhere, get away from the game for a month or 2, play something different.
All this does is delay your OP spammable by 3 seconds. Jabs for magicka has always been pretty stupid in its strenght for soloing. But delaying a jab by 3 second is not gonna destroy your world dude.
and if the only reason you like Templar is because of a spammable, then you should perhaps look over if you even like the actual class to begin with. It's funny to see you struggle to make liking jabs so much not seem so obsessed and cringe.
Theres other classes that can solo stuff aswell. I really don't get how adding a CD to youir favorite ability somehow equals to "i can't possibly enjoy this game."
Because that means you never enjoyed it to begin with, you only liked spamming 1 ability. Hell you even say it yourself.
tldr: Take a break Op, it's not the end of the world.
You've said what I was thinking way better than I could say it myself.1 -
ne.ga.kurai_ESO✭✭✭The CD starts on skill activation. Since Jabs has a 1,000ms channel all you have to do is a skill in between each Jabs. If all you're doing is Jabs spam then this change will force you to be a better player.
Jabs > Skill > Jabs0 -
furiouslog✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Keep in mind that this is a test - putting a 3 second cooldown on a class spammable would destroy the class. In order for ZOS to collect the kind of data they will need to implement a combat design that improves Cyrodiil performance, they need real world data to measure the difference in server calculations, and the aggregated effects on the players (e.g. reduction in damage/healing, skills casted, deaths, kills, etc). Testing the extreme scenarios enables them to put numbers on the trade-offs between player capability and server performance.
My issue with their experimental design is that what they are doing to templar is so extreme that there will not be enough templars actually playing the way that they play in Cyrodiil such that they won't get enough meaningful data to actually measure these effects for that class. Double AP is not enough incentive for me to log in on my stam or magplar when I won't have a fighting chance with jabs. It will be interesting to see how many templars actually give it a shot - and even if they get a sufficient sample of participants, how will they interpret their behavior? If I log in, give it a try, decide it's not worth it, and log out 15 minutes later, did they actually learn anything from that? If I stick it out and try to work my rotation so that it is viable, but die more often, how will that get interpreted - is there a baseline for my personal performance that is stored so that they can measure the difference? How many of their consumers will choose not to participate at all? Those factors will have a measurable effect on game performance because the classes causing the issues won't even be playing, or they will be playing differently but performing poorly. As such, their intended performance measures are subject to selection bias.
I just hope that someone on the ZOS team is expert enough in data analysis and experimental design to ensure that they are correctly interpreting their data, or they could end up ham-fistedly implementing a combat design that is based on an unfortunate misinterpretation of their data.2 -
Gorreck✭✭✭furiouslog wrote: »Keep in mind that this is a test - putting a 3 second cooldown on a class spammable would destroy the class. In order for ZOS to collect the kind of data they will need to implement a combat design that improves Cyrodiil performance, they need real world data to measure the difference in server calculations, and the aggregated effects on the players (e.g. reduction in damage/healing, skills casted, deaths, kills, etc). Testing the extreme scenarios enables them to put numbers on the trade-offs between player capability and server performance.
My issue with their experimental design is that what they are doing to templar is so extreme that there will not be enough templars actually playing the way that they play in Cyrodiil such that they won't get enough meaningful data to actually measure these effects for that class. Double AP is not enough incentive for me to log in on my stam or magplar when I won't have a fighting chance with jabs. It will be interesting to see how many templars actually give it a shot - and even if they get a sufficient sample of participants, how will they interpret their behavior? If I log in, give it a try, decide it's not worth it, and log out 15 minutes later, did they actually learn anything from that? If I stick it out and try to work my rotation so that it is viable, but die more often, how will that get interpreted - is there a baseline for my personal performance that is stored so that they can measure the difference? How many of their consumers will choose not to participate at all? Those factors will have a measurable effect on game performance because the classes causing the issues won't even be playing, or they will be playing differently but performing poorly. As such, their intended performance measures are subject to selection bias.
I just hope that someone on the ZOS team is expert enough in data analysis and experimental design to ensure that they are correctly interpreting their data, or they could end up ham-fistedly implementing a combat design that is based on an unfortunate misinterpretation of their data.
Yeah it is a strange one, double AP for not being able to play (for melee magplars and stamplars), essentially.1 -
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MiserynCompany✭✭✭Seems unfair to your daughter to leave over jabs .. She's a 5 year old and she has a bear! Serious, you named your child after the game. Enjoy watching her find what she loves.0 -
WhyMustItBe✭✭✭✭✭
✭This isn't going to fix the performance anyway. They need to spend money on servers, but they won't, so they're trying to throw a bandaid on it with this aoe thing and ruin the one thing everyone loves about this game in the process..fluid combat.
...while also ruining PVE in the process since they don't want to balance PVP/PVE separately (again saving investment cost).
If this is true and they really can't bring themselves to re-invest some of their massive profits into upgrading server infrastructure to meet increased demand instead of giving executives more millions in their annual bonus checks, then lease some cloud service to co-process your data like WoW rents servers for big events.
Completely destroying combat just to save a nickel and dime on server investment in the short term? How many millions a year to these guys really need? But then Bobby at WoW just gave himself a $40 million bonus after one of Blizz/Activision's worst, most scandalous years in history.
Edited by WhyMustItBe on August 10, 2020 1:29PM0
