Stamina (Im)Balance

Koubo

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

As a healer I will say we lack of tool for stam sustain.
Hircine is an horrible set for healer, full of stam, yuck, and.. that all ?
I would say warden or the circle from fighter guild give minor endu, but mag have that too.

Now where is the hollowfang for stam ? Or why does it not made stam and mag recover at the price of a lower value ?
Same for all the magicka drain, where are the stam one ? I mean we even have the life drain, so why stam drain is missing ?

Also stam need a bit more ranged skill for the flexibility. But for that they will need to reduce damage since stam hit very hard.

Idk, just some thing in my head.

Stam sustain for the "big 3" is fine. Stamcro, Stam Sorc and Stamblade sustain completely without group buffs. Stamplar and particularly Stam DK and Stamden probably need some help.

As a Stamplar, i dont need any help to sustain my stamina unless i need to dodge roll every 4 sec, but that the case for everyone. I would need help if i run without sustain food yee (or i'll need lot of adds to leech stam on them with repentance)

montiferus

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

montiferus wrote: »

Agree with everything said. As a stamplar main it is very frustrating how much mag dominates the trials scene. With the nerf to rele this will only be exacerbated.

That...really wasn't the point. At all. Mag got hammered. Stam is back. Rele is fine.

Lol rele is not fine at all. Mag will still be favored. Frankly even if it isn't its about time. You guys had the joke Thrassian set as well as the joke ability of BFB. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

maddiniiLuna

buff stam warden xD

Skjaldbjorn

montiferus wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

montiferus wrote: »

Agree with everything said. As a stamplar main it is very frustrating how much mag dominates the trials scene. With the nerf to rele this will only be exacerbated.

That...really wasn't the point. At all. Mag got hammered. Stam is back. Rele is fine.

Lol rele is not fine at all. Mag will still be favored. Frankly even if it isn't its about time. You guys had the joke Thrassian set as well as the joke ability of BFB. [snip]

I'm a stam main. I'm not sure why you're acting like this thread or my point has the slightest thing to do with mag.

satanio

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

DISCLAIMER: This thread/post has no reference or interest in the PVP content contained in Elder Scrolls Online. This is purely regarding PVE, mostly end-game trial DPS. This thread is not digging into the issues of “skill access” for weapon skill lines between Mag and Stam. This is purely focused on analyzing the fairly sizeable gap between Stamina DPS at this moment in the current PTS cycle, some of the why’s, and how it can be resolved without dismantling some classes, or creating overpowered new builds. Any comments pertaining to PVP or the “skill access” gap should be kept to other threads. Thank you.

Let’s Talk Gap:
First, we need to identify the gap. Contextually, this is somewhat difficult. We’re in a brand new PTS cycle with limited testing time and results. However, what we can do is use the previous patch (Greymoor) as our “control” and compare it directly with what we’re currently seeing from the current cycle. To try to limit wild variance, I’ll use the parses for Greymoor that Liko posted on his channel, which look like this;

Stamina Necromancer: ~96k
Stamina Sorcerer: ~91k
Stamina Warden: ~87k
Stamina Dragonknight: ~90k

Since Liko did not post parses for Stamplar or Stamblade, we’ll fill in from the rest of the community;

Stamina Templar: ~97k
Stamina Nightblade: ~93k

These are the top Greymoor parses (dummy, obviously) I could uncover and still count them as somewhat consistent results. Immediately, we can see a pretty broad gap between the bottom, Stam DK and Stamden, and the top of Stamcro and Stamplar. I think most of us already knew that was the case. Let’s take a look at what we’re seeing so far from Stonethorn. This is obviously what I could find. Not every class has been parsed by every end-game DPS, so I am working off the examples we have in the vacuum at the moment.

Stamina Necromancer: ~93k
Stamina Sorcerer: ~88k
Stamina Nightblade: ~92k
Stamina Templar: ~92k
Stamina Warden: ~85k
Stamina Dragonknight: ? (I literally could not find a single parse for this PTS. Sorry, folks.)

My DK for you:



dw/bow; 0.94 la ratio; mostly static rotation with one dynamic dot

Overall, I dont feel the nerf, was parsing 83+ two patches ago aswell, but that was full static rotation back then... I think with full dynamic it could be around 85 nowadays.
stamDK & StamDen are the worst stam dd for a year now. StamDen fix is easy - bring back Advanced Species to 3% per Animal Companion skill or implement bonus crit dmg from Chilled to Poisoned aswell. StamDK, man I don't know. Even to parse that high I need to equip Maw to get that bonus dps from Burning... otherwise the dps would be minus ~1k dps. I feel sorry that I have to say this but StamDKs are pathetic.


EDIT:
Just checked current esologs and saw this stamDK with rele + deadly + vMA daggers doing 88k on live.
So I just copied this full cheese build and yes completely static full dot rotation with that setup is stronger on single target even on pts.

Edelner

Mag builds have better damage and survivability than stams. It's completely unbalanced and anti-lore friendly.Mages should be squishy (light armor should be deleted and robes should be added to the game) and have excellent damage.Stams should be tankier and have a few less damage than mags.

Onefrkncrzypope

satanio wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

DISCLAIMER: This thread/post has no reference or interest in the PVP content contained in Elder Scrolls Online. This is purely regarding PVE, mostly end-game trial DPS. This thread is not digging into the issues of “skill access” for weapon skill lines between Mag and Stam. This is purely focused on analyzing the fairly sizeable gap between Stamina DPS at this moment in the current PTS cycle, some of the why’s, and how it can be resolved without dismantling some classes, or creating overpowered new builds. Any comments pertaining to PVP or the “skill access” gap should be kept to other threads. Thank you.

Let’s Talk Gap:
First, we need to identify the gap. Contextually, this is somewhat difficult. We’re in a brand new PTS cycle with limited testing time and results. However, what we can do is use the previous patch (Greymoor) as our “control” and compare it directly with what we’re currently seeing from the current cycle. To try to limit wild variance, I’ll use the parses for Greymoor that Liko posted on his channel, which look like this;

Stamina Necromancer: ~96k
Stamina Sorcerer: ~91k
Stamina Warden: ~87k
Stamina Dragonknight: ~90k

Since Liko did not post parses for Stamplar or Stamblade, we’ll fill in from the rest of the community;

Stamina Templar: ~97k
Stamina Nightblade: ~93k

These are the top Greymoor parses (dummy, obviously) I could uncover and still count them as somewhat consistent results. Immediately, we can see a pretty broad gap between the bottom, Stam DK and Stamden, and the top of Stamcro and Stamplar. I think most of us already knew that was the case. Let’s take a look at what we’re seeing so far from Stonethorn. This is obviously what I could find. Not every class has been parsed by every end-game DPS, so I am working off the examples we have in the vacuum at the moment.

Stamina Necromancer: ~93k
Stamina Sorcerer: ~88k
Stamina Nightblade: ~92k
Stamina Templar: ~92k
Stamina Warden: ~85k
Stamina Dragonknight: ? (I literally could not find a single parse for this PTS. Sorry, folks.)

My DK for you:



dw/bow; 0.94 la ratio; mostly static rotation with one dynamic dot

Overall, I dont feel the nerf, was parsing 83+ two patches ago aswell, but that was full static rotation back then... I think with full dynamic it could be around 85 nowadays.
stamDK & StamDen are the worst stam dd for a year now. StamDen fix is easy - bring back Advanced Species to 3% per Animal Companion skill or implement bonus crit dmg from Chilled to Poisoned aswell. StamDK, man I don't know. Even to parse that high I need to equip Maw to get that bonus dps from Burning... otherwise the dps would be minus ~1k dps. I feel sorry that I have to say this but StamDKs are pathetic.


EDIT:
Just checked current esologs and saw this stamDK with rele + deadly + vMA daggers doing 88k on live.
So I just copied this full cheese build and yes completely static full dot rotation with that setup is stronger on single target even on pts.

Stonefist feels like a major gimp. Having to invest in the DK dots and having stonefist that can only proc axe bleed on the crappy empty cast aoe sucks. Having to slot maw is just so garbage. Hell even standard is outdated in every pve situation due to movements being the only mechanic in game now.

ZoS has been so scared to buff dks for so long and I really don't know why.

thadjarvis

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

[regarding MT]

This would have been more appropriate as a class passive for Warden or Dragonknight to help bring them back into the meta and offer meaningful group utility. Plastering this on a set feels like an afterthought change that could absolutely push us into another year-long meta of stupidity and further shrink viable options.

TL;DR: The Morag change isn’t awful in a vacuum. Disease damage scaling is probably a good idea at some point, but make it class-centric. Plastering it on Morag is just going to reduce diversity, make your balance changes largely irrelevant and continue the cycle of Necro + ______ dominating the Stamina DPS scene.

Think this is main point...agree. The proposed solution is tough as it would have to be clever. If DK or warden tank can provide it wouldn't help. In addition to MT change consider that Necro/NB have crit passives and thus will benefit from EC more than other classes as well.

Skjaldbjorn

thadjarvis wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

[regarding MT]

This would have been more appropriate as a class passive for Warden or Dragonknight to help bring them back into the meta and offer meaningful group utility. Plastering this on a set feels like an afterthought change that could absolutely push us into another year-long meta of stupidity and further shrink viable options.

TL;DR: The Morag change isn’t awful in a vacuum. Disease damage scaling is probably a good idea at some point, but make it class-centric. Plastering it on Morag is just going to reduce diversity, make your balance changes largely irrelevant and continue the cycle of Necro + ______ dominating the Stamina DPS scene.

Think this is main point...agree. The proposed solution is tough as it would have to be clever. If DK or warden tank can provide it wouldn't help. In addition to MT change consider that Necro/NB have crit passives and thus will benefit from EC more than other classes as well.

It's really not tough, honestly. Just give it the Engulfing treatment. Scales with offensive stats. Tanks can have a few %, but for 10%, you gotta be a DPS.

Khatou

The warden lost me since the DLC Stonethorne which completely destroyed the regen stam became non-existent 2/3 stam actions you have nothing left...