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Stamina (Im)Balance
Skjaldbjorn
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DISCLAIMER: This thread/post has no reference or interest in the PVP content contained in Elder Scrolls Online. This is purely regarding PVE, mostly end-game trial DPS. This thread is not digging into the issues of “skill access” for weapon skill lines between Mag and Stam. This is purely focused on analyzing the fairly sizeable gap between Stamina DPS at this moment in the current PTS cycle, some of the why’s, and how it can be resolved without dismantling some classes, or creating overpowered new builds. Any comments pertaining to PVP or the “skill access” gap should be kept to other threads. Thank you.
Let’s Talk Gap:
First, we need to identify the gap. Contextually, this is somewhat difficult. We’re in a brand new PTS cycle with limited testing time and results. However, what we can do is use the previous patch (Greymoor) as our “control” and compare it directly with what we’re currently seeing from the current cycle. To try to limit wild variance, I’ll use the parses for Greymoor that Liko posted on his channel, which look like this;
Stamina Necromancer: ~96k
Stamina Sorcerer: ~91k
Stamina Warden: ~87k
Stamina Dragonknight: ~90k
Since Liko did not post parses for Stamplar or Stamblade, we’ll fill in from the rest of the community;
Stamina Templar: ~97k
Stamina Nightblade: ~93k
These are the top Greymoor parses (dummy, obviously) I could uncover and still count them as somewhat consistent results. Immediately, we can see a pretty broad gap between the bottom, Stam DK and Stamden, and the top of Stamcro and Stamplar. I think most of us already knew that was the case. Let’s take a look at what we’re seeing so far from Stonethorn. This is obviously what I could find. Not every class has been parsed by every end-game DPS, so I am working off the examples we have in the vacuum at the moment.
Stamina Necromancer: ~93k
Stamina Sorcerer: ~88k
Stamina Nightblade: ~92k
Stamina Templar: ~92k
Stamina Warden: ~85k
Stamina Dragonknight: ? (I literally could not find a single parse for this PTS. Sorry, folks.)
Next, let’s consider why we’re seeing some fairly consistent drops across several classes;
Rele changes (previous to the current change this week)
Lokke changes (trash on a dummy now)
AY buff
Shadow nerf
Divines buff
These changes affected all Stamina DPS fairly equally. It pushed Lokke out of the meta, at least contextually for optimized groups, and brought back Advancing Yokeda. As far as I know, all of these top parses were performed using AY/Rele. That seems to be the consistent meta at the moment, so we’ll go with that. The nerf and buff counter-balance seems to have resulted in a general DPS change of ~-3k. That’s a rough figure, but it definitely applies in most cases. Class changes obviously skew this. Let’s look a little deeper at each class that actually received changes;
Stamina Nightblade (-1k):
The big winner of the overall changes, despite the changes to Rele, Lokke, Shadow, etc, NB only lost 1k and looks primed for a resurgence in the meta. The new crit damage scaling passive from Grim Focus as well as the flat weapon damage for flanked targets are strong within context, without being game-breaking. Solid changes to bring Stamblade back in line.
Stamina Necromancer (-3k):
This is just the loss from the overall changes. Stamcro is still fine, and actually got a very subtle buff for when siphon is recast early. Stamcro still looks to be the likely king, but we’ll see.
Stamina Templar (-5k):
Despite Ritual’s damage seeing a small buff, more changes to Jabs along with the overall changes seems to have pushed Templar back down the totem pole. Still strong, still competitive, but not nearly as powerful as before.
Stamina Sorcerer (-3k):
This one is a strange case, because my parse is the best I have seen thus far. It is entirely likely (tbh guaranteed) that Stam Sorc can parse higher than this, but it would fall within the consistent model of loss/gain based on the changes this patch. Overall, I think the Stam Sorc changes are a very positive direction.
So what we can determine at a glance is that, for the changes that hit everyone equally, the results are pretty consistent even when class passives or favored stats are taken into consideration. Some class changes skewed things a bit one way or the other, but the argument could be made that the top-4 are reasonably well-balanced.
So What’s The Problem?
Aside from the fact that our top vs lowest available is still an 8k gap, the issue lies more in what we are going to likely see as the patch plays out and raid parses become a reality. One key change is likely going to flip what looks like a reasonably balanced meta on its head;
The Morag Tong: This set now causes targets to take bonus Disease and Poison Damage, rather than only Poison Damage.
This change, honestly, should be immediately reverted. This is absolutely game-breaking as far as balancing and standardizing Stamina DPS. Let’s take a look at what Poison skills are currently available in the Stamina meta.
Shalks (Stamden)
Venemous Claw (DK)
Noxious Breath (DK)
Venom Skull (Necromancer)
Poison Injection (Bow)
Along with our standard poisons we run, this is the rough list of things actually impacted by Morag in the current climate. So the two lowest DPS classes, Necro’s core spammable that is up-and-down as far as favorability and usage, and a shared bow skill that likes to dance in and out of the meta when it’s feeling froggy. Perfect balance? Absolutely not, but not unreasonable here. At the very least, all Stamina can benefit from their poisons and injection, so no one is left out in the cold.
Let’s now take a look at Disease damage sources;
Pestilent Colossus (Necromancer)
Blighted Blastbones (Necromancer)
Detonating Siphon (Necromancer)
Incapacitating Strike (Nightblade)
Killer’s Blade (Nightblade)
Grim Focus (Nightblade)
In a vacuum, that probably doesn’t seem that bad. However, when you consider these skills account for an absolutely huge portion of each relative classes’ DPS, and their status already as the “top 2”, this is simply going to create yet another dev-enforced meta due to shortsighted changes. In the current Stonethorn PTS without taking Morag into consideration, it would at least be feasible to bring any of the top-4 with minimal DPS loss. With Morag, that changes entirely.
This would have been more appropriate as a class passive for Warden or Dragonknight to help bring them back into the meta and offer meaningful group utility. Plastering this on a set feels like an afterthought change that could absolutely push us into another year-long meta of stupidity and further shrink viable options.
TL;DR: The Morag change isn’t awful in a vacuum. Disease damage scaling is probably a good idea at some point, but make it class-centric. Plastering it on Morag is just going to reduce diversity, make your balance changes largely irrelevant and continue the cycle of Necro + ______ dominating the Stamina DPS scene.
Let’s Talk Gap:
First, we need to identify the gap. Contextually, this is somewhat difficult. We’re in a brand new PTS cycle with limited testing time and results. However, what we can do is use the previous patch (Greymoor) as our “control” and compare it directly with what we’re currently seeing from the current cycle. To try to limit wild variance, I’ll use the parses for Greymoor that Liko posted on his channel, which look like this;
Stamina Necromancer: ~96k
Stamina Sorcerer: ~91k
Stamina Warden: ~87k
Stamina Dragonknight: ~90k
Since Liko did not post parses for Stamplar or Stamblade, we’ll fill in from the rest of the community;
Stamina Templar: ~97k
Stamina Nightblade: ~93k
These are the top Greymoor parses (dummy, obviously) I could uncover and still count them as somewhat consistent results. Immediately, we can see a pretty broad gap between the bottom, Stam DK and Stamden, and the top of Stamcro and Stamplar. I think most of us already knew that was the case. Let’s take a look at what we’re seeing so far from Stonethorn. This is obviously what I could find. Not every class has been parsed by every end-game DPS, so I am working off the examples we have in the vacuum at the moment.
Stamina Necromancer: ~93k
Stamina Sorcerer: ~88k
Stamina Nightblade: ~92k
Stamina Templar: ~92k
Stamina Warden: ~85k
Stamina Dragonknight: ? (I literally could not find a single parse for this PTS. Sorry, folks.)
Next, let’s consider why we’re seeing some fairly consistent drops across several classes;
Rele changes (previous to the current change this week)
Lokke changes (trash on a dummy now)
AY buff
Shadow nerf
Divines buff
These changes affected all Stamina DPS fairly equally. It pushed Lokke out of the meta, at least contextually for optimized groups, and brought back Advancing Yokeda. As far as I know, all of these top parses were performed using AY/Rele. That seems to be the consistent meta at the moment, so we’ll go with that. The nerf and buff counter-balance seems to have resulted in a general DPS change of ~-3k. That’s a rough figure, but it definitely applies in most cases. Class changes obviously skew this. Let’s look a little deeper at each class that actually received changes;
Stamina Nightblade (-1k):
The big winner of the overall changes, despite the changes to Rele, Lokke, Shadow, etc, NB only lost 1k and looks primed for a resurgence in the meta. The new crit damage scaling passive from Grim Focus as well as the flat weapon damage for flanked targets are strong within context, without being game-breaking. Solid changes to bring Stamblade back in line.
Stamina Necromancer (-3k):
This is just the loss from the overall changes. Stamcro is still fine, and actually got a very subtle buff for when siphon is recast early. Stamcro still looks to be the likely king, but we’ll see.
Stamina Templar (-5k):
Despite Ritual’s damage seeing a small buff, more changes to Jabs along with the overall changes seems to have pushed Templar back down the totem pole. Still strong, still competitive, but not nearly as powerful as before.
Stamina Sorcerer (-3k):
This one is a strange case, because my parse is the best I have seen thus far. It is entirely likely (tbh guaranteed) that Stam Sorc can parse higher than this, but it would fall within the consistent model of loss/gain based on the changes this patch. Overall, I think the Stam Sorc changes are a very positive direction.
So what we can determine at a glance is that, for the changes that hit everyone equally, the results are pretty consistent even when class passives or favored stats are taken into consideration. Some class changes skewed things a bit one way or the other, but the argument could be made that the top-4 are reasonably well-balanced.
So What’s The Problem?
Aside from the fact that our top vs lowest available is still an 8k gap, the issue lies more in what we are going to likely see as the patch plays out and raid parses become a reality. One key change is likely going to flip what looks like a reasonably balanced meta on its head;
The Morag Tong: This set now causes targets to take bonus Disease and Poison Damage, rather than only Poison Damage.
This change, honestly, should be immediately reverted. This is absolutely game-breaking as far as balancing and standardizing Stamina DPS. Let’s take a look at what Poison skills are currently available in the Stamina meta.
Shalks (Stamden)
Venemous Claw (DK)
Noxious Breath (DK)
Venom Skull (Necromancer)
Poison Injection (Bow)
Along with our standard poisons we run, this is the rough list of things actually impacted by Morag in the current climate. So the two lowest DPS classes, Necro’s core spammable that is up-and-down as far as favorability and usage, and a shared bow skill that likes to dance in and out of the meta when it’s feeling froggy. Perfect balance? Absolutely not, but not unreasonable here. At the very least, all Stamina can benefit from their poisons and injection, so no one is left out in the cold.
Let’s now take a look at Disease damage sources;
Pestilent Colossus (Necromancer)
Blighted Blastbones (Necromancer)
Detonating Siphon (Necromancer)
Incapacitating Strike (Nightblade)
Killer’s Blade (Nightblade)
Grim Focus (Nightblade)
In a vacuum, that probably doesn’t seem that bad. However, when you consider these skills account for an absolutely huge portion of each relative classes’ DPS, and their status already as the “top 2”, this is simply going to create yet another dev-enforced meta due to shortsighted changes. In the current Stonethorn PTS without taking Morag into consideration, it would at least be feasible to bring any of the top-4 with minimal DPS loss. With Morag, that changes entirely.
This would have been more appropriate as a class passive for Warden or Dragonknight to help bring them back into the meta and offer meaningful group utility. Plastering this on a set feels like an afterthought change that could absolutely push us into another year-long meta of stupidity and further shrink viable options.
TL;DR: The Morag change isn’t awful in a vacuum. Disease damage scaling is probably a good idea at some point, but make it class-centric. Plastering it on Morag is just going to reduce diversity, make your balance changes largely irrelevant and continue the cycle of Necro + ______ dominating the Stamina DPS scene.
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Onefrkncrzypope✭✭✭✭✭
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You need to compare submitted parses not just liko. Who's parses don't reflect the changes at the last minute for this current patch. Also shows top end and low end dps. You can see what people are succeeding at. No class has less than 56 parses. 90k sounds awesome but this parse is not representative to the people using the class. Endgamers don't care about balance they want top dps. Liko does work hard though
Edited cause better post
Edited by Onefrkncrzypope on July 28, 2020 12:25AM-Immortal Redeemer-
-Extinguisher of Flames-
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If I edited a post, it was for spelling. It is always because of spelling....1 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »
You need to compare submitted parses not just liko. Who's parses don't reflect the changes at the last minute for this current patch.
@Onefrkncrzypope I'm not sure i'm understanding your graph there. Context? Because that seems to suggest the "top" Stamblade parse from the cycle is under 70k, and I have personally seen over 90k.0 -
Onefrkncrzypope✭✭✭✭✭
✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »
You need to compare submitted parses not just liko. Who's parses don't reflect the changes at the last minute for this current patch.
@Onefrkncrzypope I'm not sure i'm understanding your graph there. Context? Because that seems to suggest the "top" Stamblade parse from the cycle is under 70k, and I have personally seen over 90k.
I used aggregate score. I reuploaded. It's also people who posted to ESO logs. It's more representative to the actual uses of classes not just people who can turn any class into gold.Edited by Onefrkncrzypope on July 28, 2020 12:27AM-Immortal Redeemer-
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If I edited a post, it was for spelling. It is always because of spelling....0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »
You need to compare submitted parses not just liko. Who's parses don't reflect the changes at the last minute for this current patch.
@Onefrkncrzypope I'm not sure i'm understanding your graph there. Context? Because that seems to suggest the "top" Stamblade parse from the cycle is under 70k, and I have personally seen over 90k.
I used aggregate score. I reuploaded. It's also people who posted to ESO logs.
For live/Greymoor or the current PTS cycle?0 -
Onefrkncrzypope✭✭✭✭✭
✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »
You need to compare submitted parses not just liko. Who's parses don't reflect the changes at the last minute for this current patch.
@Onefrkncrzypope I'm not sure i'm understanding your graph there. Context? Because that seems to suggest the "top" Stamblade parse from the cycle is under 70k, and I have personally seen over 90k.
I used aggregate score. I reuploaded. It's also people who posted to ESO logs.
For live/Greymoor or the current PTS cycle?
Live.
https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/13/#aggregate=amountEdited by Onefrkncrzypope on July 28, 2020 12:29AM-Immortal Redeemer-
-Extinguisher of Flames-
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If I edited a post, it was for spelling. It is always because of spelling....0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »
You need to compare submitted parses not just liko. Who's parses don't reflect the changes at the last minute for this current patch.
@Onefrkncrzypope I'm not sure i'm understanding your graph there. Context? Because that seems to suggest the "top" Stamblade parse from the cycle is under 70k, and I have personally seen over 90k.
I used aggregate score. I reuploaded. It's also people who posted to ESO logs.
For live/Greymoor or the current PTS cycle?
Live.
That actually makes sense. Nobody cares about Stam in the current climate. Stamplar and Stamcro are the two seeing meaningful play, especially in Kyne's. You're missing my point, i'm using Liko's parses as a "control" because he's a very talented player who at least somewhat represents "optimized" performance. Comparatively, i'm using the parses I am finding from a host of super talented players on the current cycle and their results. It's a fairly direct comparison of optimized results in a vacuum.Edited by Skjaldbjorn on July 28, 2020 12:31AM0 -
Onefrkncrzypope✭✭✭✭✭
✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »
You need to compare submitted parses not just liko. Who's parses don't reflect the changes at the last minute for this current patch.
@Onefrkncrzypope I'm not sure i'm understanding your graph there. Context? Because that seems to suggest the "top" Stamblade parse from the cycle is under 70k, and I have personally seen over 90k.
I used aggregate score. I reuploaded. It's also people who posted to ESO logs.
For live/Greymoor or the current PTS cycle?
Live.
That actually makes sense. Nobody cares about Stam in the current climate. Stamplar and Stamcro are the two seeing meaningful play, especially in Kyne's. You're missing my point, i'm using Liko's parses as a "control" because he's a very talented player who at least somewhat represents "optimized" performance. Comparatively, i'm using the parses I am finding from a host of super talented players on the current cycle and their results. It's a fairly direct comparison of optimized results in a vacuum.
Those parses aren't all from him anymore. He out sources to people like skinny cheeks and others. Aussie represent that mnb with 4 billion ping like a champ-Immortal Redeemer-
-Extinguisher of Flames-
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-Potato-
If I edited a post, it was for spelling. It is always because of spelling....1 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just looking at the list you linked, I personally have higher parses for Stamden, Stamcro and Stam Sorc. I don't submit them to ESO logs. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the majority of end-game DPS don't, either.0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »
You need to compare submitted parses not just liko. Who's parses don't reflect the changes at the last minute for this current patch.
@Onefrkncrzypope I'm not sure i'm understanding your graph there. Context? Because that seems to suggest the "top" Stamblade parse from the cycle is under 70k, and I have personally seen over 90k.
I used aggregate score. I reuploaded. It's also people who posted to ESO logs.
For live/Greymoor or the current PTS cycle?
Live.
That actually makes sense. Nobody cares about Stam in the current climate. Stamplar and Stamcro are the two seeing meaningful play, especially in Kyne's. You're missing my point, i'm using Liko's parses as a "control" because he's a very talented player who at least somewhat represents "optimized" performance. Comparatively, i'm using the parses I am finding from a host of super talented players on the current cycle and their results. It's a fairly direct comparison of optimized results in a vacuum.
Those parses aren't all from him anymore. He out sources to people like skinny cheeks and others. Aussie represent that mnb with 4 billion ping like a champ
Oh, I know. But it's the best metric we have for an "optimal" glance at a class' kit in the current meta. I'm a big fan of Skinny, sub to the dude on twitch, he's a great guy.0 -
Onefrkncrzypope✭✭✭✭✭
✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Just looking at the list you linked, I personally have higher parses for Stamden, Stamcro and Stam Sorc. I don't submit them to ESO logs. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the majority of end-game DPS don't, either.
Yeah but addressing a class at the average would make better sense.-Immortal Redeemer-
-Extinguisher of Flames-
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-Potato-
If I edited a post, it was for spelling. It is always because of spelling....0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Just looking at the list you linked, I personally have higher parses for Stamden, Stamcro and Stam Sorc. I don't submit them to ESO logs. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the majority of end-game DPS don't, either.
Yeah but addressing a class at the average would make better sense.
The problem is, with Stam being utterly irrelevant in the current climate, those averages will be tremendously skewed. A, because as I said, i'm not really buying that end-game players are submitting theirs in droves, and B, people don't care atm. They're parsing Mag because Mag is meta. It's the best option we have for direct comparison right now with the lowest chance for error.0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭To clarify a little on the point of this thread, it's less about the general gap which is still bad between the top and bottom, but moreso highlighting how too often the gaps aren't created with class changes, but more subtle additions like the Morag change. At a glance it doesn't seem overly impactful, but when weighed against the results we're seeing from the PTS currently it becomes much more suffocating and damning for overall game balance.0 -
Onefrkncrzypope✭✭✭✭✭
✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Just looking at the list you linked, I personally have higher parses for Stamden, Stamcro and Stam Sorc. I don't submit them to ESO logs. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the majority of end-game DPS don't, either.
Yeah but addressing a class at the average would make better sense.
The problem is, with Stam being utterly irrelevant in the current climate, those averages will be tremendously skewed. A, because as I said, i'm not really buying that end-game players are submitting theirs in droves, and B, people don't care atm. They're parsing Mag because Mag is meta. It's the best option we have for direct comparison right now with the lowest chance for error.
For us yes missing probably both side of the spectrum, ZoS should have much more stats available. We know this, I also believe that those metrics do not scew far off.
There is an imbalance between the specs but it's far more than just damage. Tbh rele carries Stam and now the even underperform in single target damage. Yeah BFB and thrassian nerf but you can see in the representative of dps screwing that even without it onto matter.
There isn't any performing skills anymore for Stam. They all got nerfed because of PvP dot meta. Rending is the damage more and it only has a snare. PI is a dps loss in most cases. Every new Stam ability is ranged and reducing axe bleed and selenes proc. Dude poopfist literally has like the longest cast time and is a dps loss for the DK.
It's alot more than set imbalance at this point.-Immortal Redeemer-
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-Potato-
If I edited a post, it was for spelling. It is always because of spelling....0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Just looking at the list you linked, I personally have higher parses for Stamden, Stamcro and Stam Sorc. I don't submit them to ESO logs. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the majority of end-game DPS don't, either.
Yeah but addressing a class at the average would make better sense.
The problem is, with Stam being utterly irrelevant in the current climate, those averages will be tremendously skewed. A, because as I said, i'm not really buying that end-game players are submitting theirs in droves, and B, people don't care atm. They're parsing Mag because Mag is meta. It's the best option we have for direct comparison right now with the lowest chance for error.
For us yes missing probably both side of the spectrum, ZoS should have much more stats available. We know this, I also believe that those metrics do not scew far off.
There is an imbalance between the specs but it's far more than just damage. Tbh rele carries Stam and now the even underperform in single target damage. Yeah BFB and thrassian nerf but you can see in the representative of dps screwing that even without it onto matter.
There isn't any performing skills anymore for Stam. They all got nerfed because of PvP dot meta. Rending is the damage more and it only has a snare. PI is a dps loss in most cases. Every new Stam ability is ranged and reducing axe bleed and selenes proc. Dude poopfist literally has like the longest cast time and is a dps loss for the DK.
It's alot more than set imbalance at this point.
You're right for sure to a point. Stonefist and the Bird bleed for Warden were both horrendous changes and I have voiced that time and time again. However, in this case, at least the top-4 are reasonably balanced in place. Cro, NB, Plar and Sorc all look really solid with potential for growth and a wide variance in playstyle. They're in good places based on these changes, overall.
But the Morag change just craps all over that and catapults Nightblade and Necro to the top for no reason at all.0 -
Onefrkncrzypope✭✭✭✭✭
✭Because they are out of touch with their game.-Immortal Redeemer-
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-Gryphon Heart-
-Potato-
If I edited a post, it was for spelling. It is always because of spelling....1 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm personally looking forward to the changes for PvP purposes.
I also don't think that it's necessarily healthy to attempt to balance the game against the top 0.01% of players. As someone already noted, the best players can make any class perform at an elite level and attempting to achieve perfect parity between classes with so many variables and consistently delivered new content is akin to building sandcastles before a rising tide.
That said, I do agree that all classes (and all Mag/Stam subclasses) should have Engulfing Flames-like skills that provide reasons to include them in group content. Giving Venomous Claw the old Morag Tong bonus and then working through the other permutations of classes would be a healthy undertaking and, if done thoughtfully, discourage class-stacking in raids even if certain specs did have a small overall DPS edge. The idea being that the cumulative group buffs provided by diverse class selections would outweigh the marginal DPS imbalances between classes.
Do I have faith that the ZOS balance team could pull that off though... sadly, not really.1 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »I'm personally looking forward to the changes for PvP purposes.
I also don't think that it's necessarily healthy to attempt to balance the game against the top 0.01% of players. As someone already noted, the best players can make any class perform at an elite level and attempting to achieve perfect parity between classes with so many variables and consistently delivered new content is akin to building sandcastles before a rising tide.
That said, I do agree that all classes (and all Mag/Stam subclasses) should have Engulfing Flames-like skills that provide reasons to include them in group content. Giving Venomous Claw the old Morag Tong bonus and then working through the other permutations of classes would be a healthy undertaking and, if done thoughtfully, discourage class-stacking in raids even if certain specs did have a small overall DPS edge. The idea being that the cumulative group buffs provided by diverse class selections would outweigh the marginal DPS imbalances between classes.
Do I have faith that the ZOS balance team could pull that off though... sadly, not really.
I'd love to see that kind of balance. I don't think it'll ever happen. However, this Morag change is seemingly just change for the sake of change, and indirectly just breaks what balance they've created in the current cycle.1 -
Onefrkncrzypope✭✭✭✭✭
✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »I'm personally looking forward to the changes for PvP purposes.
I also don't think that it's necessarily healthy to attempt to balance the game against the top 0.01% of players. As someone already noted, the best players can make any class perform at an elite level and attempting to achieve perfect parity between classes with so many variables and consistently delivered new content is akin to building sandcastles before a rising tide.
That said, I do agree that all classes (and all Mag/Stam subclasses) should have Engulfing Flames-like skills that provide reasons to include them in group content. Giving Venomous Claw the old Morag Tong bonus and then working through the other permutations of classes would be a healthy undertaking and, if done thoughtfully, discourage class-stacking in raids even if certain specs did have a small overall DPS edge. The idea being that the cumulative group buffs provided by diverse class selections would outweigh the marginal DPS imbalances between classes.
Do I have faith that the ZOS balance team could pull that off though... sadly, not really.
Move the spell/weapon building proc to foo and make a Stam whip with Morag tong buff. Remove channel and make it a tank spammable instead.
Off topic my bad. SDK is my favorite.Edited by Onefrkncrzypope on July 28, 2020 1:15AM-Immortal Redeemer-
-Extinguisher of Flames-
-Gryphon Heart-
-Potato-
If I edited a post, it was for spelling. It is always because of spelling....1 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »
You need to compare submitted parses not just liko. Who's parses don't reflect the changes at the last minute for this current patch.
@Onefrkncrzypope I'm not sure i'm understanding your graph there. Context? Because that seems to suggest the "top" Stamblade parse from the cycle is under 70k, and I have personally seen over 90k.
I used aggregate score. I reuploaded. It's also people who posted to ESO logs.
For live/Greymoor or the current PTS cycle?
Live.
That actually makes sense. Nobody cares about Stam in the current climate. Stamplar and Stamcro are the two seeing meaningful play, especially in Kyne's. You're missing my point, i'm using Liko's parses as a "control" because he's a very talented player who at least somewhat represents "optimized" performance. Comparatively, i'm using the parses I am finding from a host of super talented players on the current cycle and their results. It's a fairly direct comparison of optimized results in a vacuum.
He posts others' as well as his own parses doesn't he? The only useful one is eso logs.
I don't get what any of it has to do with Morag Tong. No one uses that competitively.0 -
Onefrkncrzypope✭✭✭✭✭
✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »
You need to compare submitted parses not just liko. Who's parses don't reflect the changes at the last minute for this current patch.
@Onefrkncrzypope I'm not sure i'm understanding your graph there. Context? Because that seems to suggest the "top" Stamblade parse from the cycle is under 70k, and I have personally seen over 90k.
I used aggregate score. I reuploaded. It's also people who posted to ESO logs.
For live/Greymoor or the current PTS cycle?
Live.
That actually makes sense. Nobody cares about Stam in the current climate. Stamplar and Stamcro are the two seeing meaningful play, especially in Kyne's. You're missing my point, i'm using Liko's parses as a "control" because he's a very talented player who at least somewhat represents "optimized" performance. Comparatively, i'm using the parses I am finding from a host of super talented players on the current cycle and their results. It's a fairly direct comparison of optimized results in a vacuum.
He posts others' as well as his own parses doesn't he? The only useful one is eso logs.
I don't get what any of it has to do with Morag Tong. No one uses that competitively.
It's a start. No one is talking Stam anymore in PTS.-Immortal Redeemer-
-Extinguisher of Flames-
-Gryphon Heart-
-Potato-
If I edited a post, it was for spelling. It is always because of spelling....0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »
You need to compare submitted parses not just liko. Who's parses don't reflect the changes at the last minute for this current patch.
@Onefrkncrzypope I'm not sure i'm understanding your graph there. Context? Because that seems to suggest the "top" Stamblade parse from the cycle is under 70k, and I have personally seen over 90k.
I used aggregate score. I reuploaded. It's also people who posted to ESO logs.
For live/Greymoor or the current PTS cycle?
Live.
That actually makes sense. Nobody cares about Stam in the current climate. Stamplar and Stamcro are the two seeing meaningful play, especially in Kyne's. You're missing my point, i'm using Liko's parses as a "control" because he's a very talented player who at least somewhat represents "optimized" performance. Comparatively, i'm using the parses I am finding from a host of super talented players on the current cycle and their results. It's a fairly direct comparison of optimized results in a vacuum.
He posts others' as well as his own parses doesn't he? The only useful one is eso logs.
I don't get what any of it has to do with Morag Tong. No one uses that competitively.
They will. It buffs the core damage skills for Stamcro and Stamblade. A 10% buff to Killer's Blade, Blastbones and Grim Focus is absolutely disgusting.0 -
Runefang✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »
You need to compare submitted parses not just liko. Who's parses don't reflect the changes at the last minute for this current patch.
@Onefrkncrzypope I'm not sure i'm understanding your graph there. Context? Because that seems to suggest the "top" Stamblade parse from the cycle is under 70k, and I have personally seen over 90k.
I used aggregate score. I reuploaded. It's also people who posted to ESO logs.
For live/Greymoor or the current PTS cycle?
Live.
That actually makes sense. Nobody cares about Stam in the current climate. Stamplar and Stamcro are the two seeing meaningful play, especially in Kyne's. You're missing my point, i'm using Liko's parses as a "control" because he's a very talented player who at least somewhat represents "optimized" performance. Comparatively, i'm using the parses I am finding from a host of super talented players on the current cycle and their results. It's a fairly direct comparison of optimized results in a vacuum.
He posts others' as well as his own parses doesn't he? The only useful one is eso logs.
I don't get what any of it has to do with Morag Tong. No one uses that competitively.
If you want to look at logs don't look at dummy parses, they are irrelevant because so few people upload those parses. You can check out most of the vAA bosses for a much larger pool of parses or even vSS Yolnakhriin. They're all static fights and show what happens in real content.
Even then logs are skewed because groups optimise for magicka nowdays, also the top groups have the best players running pre-determined classes which can make a class look relative good. Magcro's for example are top 2-3 dps in most fights, not because they're better than other classes but the best players have to play them anyway.0 -
Koubo✭✭✭StamDD are just not wanted right now in live, and wont be much more after the (actual) patch. I'm a Stamplar (kinda new player 3.5 months old in the game) and all i see is :
+DD, Stamplar
Have you a MagDD?
...
Seriously, with the current changed, i dont see stamplar being played either in pvp or pve (i know the thread is not about pvp. I dont really play in PvP either)
ANd you just point another thing that will put us in the grave of a Cro... Thanks ZOS...0 -
Aznarb✭✭✭✭✭
✭As a healer I will say we lack of tool for stam sustain.
Hircine is an horrible set for healer, full of stam, yuck, and.. that all ?
I would say warden or the circle from fighter guild give minor endu, but mag have that too.
Now where is the hollowfang for stam ? Or why does it not made stam and mag recover at the price of a lower value ?
Same for all the magicka drain, where are the stam one ? I mean we even have the life drain, so why stam drain is missing ?
Also stam need a bit more ranged skill for the flexibility. But for that they will need to reduce damage since stam hit very hard.
Idk, just some thing in my head.Edited by Aznarb on July 28, 2020 8:47AM[ PC EU ]
[ Khuram-dar ]
[ Khajiit ]
[ Templar - Healer ]
[Crazy Gatherer & Compulsive Thief]1 -
Onefrkncrzypope✭✭✭✭✭
✭As a healer I will say we lack of tool for stam sustain.
Hircine is an horrible set for healer, full of stam, yuck, and.. that all ?
I would say warden or the circle from fighter guild give minor endu, but mag have that too.
Now where is the hollowfang for stam ? Or why does it not made stam and mag recover at the price of a lower value ?
Same for all the magicka drain, where are the stam one ? I mean we even have the life drain, so why stam drain is missing ?
Also stam need a bit more ranged skill for the flexibility. But for that they will need to reduce damage since stam hit very hard.
Idk, just some thing in my head.
Traditionally Stam could sustain fine. I am more frustrated with how they refuse to let Stam be strong by itself.
Loc u need a group worth of synergies
Tremoscale is tank only
The new synergy with disease. Health based skill
Stam doesn't bring anything to group either
Poopfist->tank
Potl-> lol why it's only mag in here and alcosh now covers it
Frag-> see above
Stam doesn't even have enough single target damage to combat the loss of aoe anymore. Mag dps are hitting Stam single target numbers without vamp and stranglers. What's the point of Stam then?
It's like they only care about making sure Stam is weaker in PvP so they can't buff them anywhere.
Ranged skills are a loss to a Stam because to get the best damage the are stuck at melee anyway.
These new ranged spammables are dumb. Let's say a dk wants to play ranged... Lol ok have fun running in for claw breath trap and standing there for ulti drop. Oh don't forget your channeled first cast of poopfist that's melee to then you can go ranged for about what 7 secs each 14 second rotation that's if your monster helm is veli and you like to bowl. If a Stam wants to be range they use a bow bow build. Snipe is far better than any of the ranged spammables that Stam has. So a Stam would only use it while with dw which has a passive that is paramount. The ax bleed only prices of melee damage.
Stam needs damage. The specs mag/Stam were separated into two paths. Stam would have to worry about penetration but have strong crit base so it could be relatively ignored. Mag is the same for penetration. That was fine for awhile. They removed damage for PI,rending, hail but did not move the damage elsewhere. It was just gone.
Now the class built with alot of crit damage is reliant on a proc set for damage. Proc sets can't crit.
There has also been a shift in how the specs gain base stat. Before summerset mag traditionally built up mag and Stam built up weapon damage. This is built into the two guilds. Mag now can stack both pretty easily while Stam has no max Stam modifiers other than war horn.
Survivability/application is too easy to see that Stam is worthless in every trial since vhof came out.
Mechanics are even overtuned towards mag range builds to. vka is death in melee range for mid tier players. Vcr/vas not designed for a pure melee class. They can't dream up any ranged mechanics I guess. Remember Stam also deals with aoe tank mechanics as well.
Stam had damage now doesn't. That need to be returned to the classes that need it and not in the form of another dumb proc set or set that another character needs to use.
-Immortal Redeemer-
-Extinguisher of Flames-
-Gryphon Heart-
-Potato-
If I edited a post, it was for spelling. It is always because of spelling....1 -
Onefrkncrzypope✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Onefrkncrzypope : at this point, they dont care i think...
Back to elder staves online. At least I can tank on main DK.-Immortal Redeemer-
-Extinguisher of Flames-
-Gryphon Heart-
-Potato-
If I edited a post, it was for spelling. It is always because of spelling....0 -
montiferus✭✭✭✭✭Agree with everything said. As a stamplar main it is very frustrating how much mag dominates the trials scene. With the nerf to rele this will only be exacerbated.
0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭montiferus wrote: »Agree with everything said. As a stamplar main it is very frustrating how much mag dominates the trials scene. With the nerf to rele this will only be exacerbated.
That...really wasn't the point. At all. Mag got hammered. Stam is back. Rele is fine.0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭As a healer I will say we lack of tool for stam sustain.
Hircine is an horrible set for healer, full of stam, yuck, and.. that all ?
I would say warden or the circle from fighter guild give minor endu, but mag have that too.
Now where is the hollowfang for stam ? Or why does it not made stam and mag recover at the price of a lower value ?
Same for all the magicka drain, where are the stam one ? I mean we even have the life drain, so why stam drain is missing ?
Also stam need a bit more ranged skill for the flexibility. But for that they will need to reduce damage since stam hit very hard.
Idk, just some thing in my head.
Stam sustain for the "big 3" is fine. Stamcro, Stam Sorc and Stamblade sustain completely without group buffs. Stamplar and particularly Stam DK and Stamden probably need some help.0