Major Courage set changes are illogical

p00tx

Spell Power Cure, which comes from 4 person content, caps at 12 people affected by its proc. Olorime, which comes from 12 person content caps at 6 people affected when procced. This is illogical in its design and should not go ahead with these caps in place. The timing changes we can deal with, and even capping SPC at 12 is fine, but you should NEVER make gear from a 4 person dungeon function better than its trial counterpart. Please reconsider this change.

Sordidfairytale

Olorime can buff 12 people. Just from two different instances. There are not many abilities that will over-heal all 12 people in a party at once.

Olupajmibanan

Olorime can affect 12 people in a minimum of 2 seconds (before nerf it was 1 second).

Aznarb

p00tx wrote: »

Spell Power Cure, which comes from 4 person content, caps at 12 people affected by its proc. Olorime, which comes from 12 person content caps at 6 people affected when procced. This is illogical in its design and should not go ahead with these caps in place. The timing changes we can deal with, and even capping SPC at 12 is fine, but you should NEVER make gear from a 4 person dungeon function better than its trial counterpart. Please reconsider this change.

Spell Power Cure: Reduced the duration of the Major Courage granted from this set to 5 seconds, down from 10 seconds, to reinforce the need to constantly heal your allies, getting them to full health and ensuring they stay topped off at all times.

New PTS note.
So olo is still gonna be BIS for long.

zvavi

Olorime - Over all it means that olorime still got triple nerf.
From 30 sec to 20 sec (manageable, if one circle misplaced, can make comeback with next).
Removed window to 5 seconds from 10, is totally fine, in trials still great, but dungeons r gonna be hit for that. Strangely enough it is dungeon dlc, that should focus on dungeons, not nerfing dungeon groups.
And the 6 player cap per second, which i have no idea where it came from, and needs to go asap especially with the duration of circle down to 5 seconds with 10 seconds cd.

Spell power cure - the change to this set to 5 seconds is a massive nerf, because since forever, this set had 1 massive shortcoming, it didn't refresh before it fell off. Making it 5 seconds short will make dds lose anywhere between 0 and 1 seconds between procs even when they have a hot ticking on them and they are mostly topped. Resulting in overall estimated uptime of 90%. If there is damage incoming in waves here and there? It will go down a lot.
If you are lowering the buff time, at least let the set refresh before it comes off, but I think it would be better to just higher the time back up especially since it seems that olorime will have x4 the buff time spc gets, I think the gap is too big.

Merciful17

Man why are they nerfing healing sets in the first place...

the1andonlyskwex

Merciful17 wrote: »

Man why are they nerfing healing sets in the first place...

Maybe because Olorime is basically considered mandatory, with the only remotely viable alternative being SPC.

I, for one, would love the healer meta to shift to something else for a change. I fear these nerfs don't go far enough though.

Aznarb

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Merciful17 wrote: »

Man why are they nerfing healing sets in the first place...

Maybe because Olorime is basically considered mandatory, with the only remotely viable alternative being SPC.

I, for one, would love the healer meta to shift to something else for a change. I fear these nerfs don't go far enough though.

Most of healing set are trash.
That why we stick with olo/mk/z'en.
They need to buff other set instead of nerfing the few we get to the ground.

I'd agree Olo was way to easy to use for the strong buff it give.
The second change seem fine.

But SPC just go destroyed for no reason.

FrancisCrawford

zvavi wrote: »

Olorime - Over all it means that olorime still got triple nerf.
From 30 sec to 20 sec (manageable, if one circle misplaced, can make comeback with next).
Removed window to 5 seconds from 10, is totally fine, in trials still great, but dungeons r gonna be hit for that. Strangely enough it is dungeon dlc, that should focus on dungeons, not nerfing dungeon groups.
And the 6 player cap per second, which i have no idea where it came from, and needs to go asap especially with the duration of circle down to 5 seconds with 10 seconds cd.

Spell power cure - the change to this set to 5 seconds is a massive nerf, because since forever, this set had 1 massive shortcoming, it didn't refresh before it fell off. Making it 5 seconds short will make dds lose anywhere between 0 and 1 seconds between procs even when they have a hot ticking on them and they are mostly topped. Resulting in overall estimated uptime of 90%. If there is damage incoming in waves here and there? It will go down a lot.
If you are lowering the buff time, at least let the set refresh before it comes off, but I think it would be better to just higher the time back up especially since it seems that olorime will have x4 the buff time spc gets, I think the gap is too big.

I agree with your diagnosis of SPC, but I favor a different cure than you do.

I think letting the buff keep refreshing is the right way to go, and is a good thematic fit to overhealing. If the group stays at 100% health, then everything should be great. Damage to health, however, is damage to damage output as well.

Merciful17

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Merciful17 wrote: »

Man why are they nerfing healing sets in the first place...

Maybe because Olorime is basically considered mandatory, with the only remotely viable alternative being SPC.

I, for one, would love the healer meta to shift to something else for a change. I fear these nerfs don't go far enough though.

Instead of nerfing sets why not buff other ones to switch up the meta that way? Much better than making people grind for a set then nerfing it so that other sets outshine it.

the1andonlyskwex

Merciful17 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Merciful17 wrote: »

Man why are they nerfing healing sets in the first place...

Maybe because Olorime is basically considered mandatory, with the only remotely viable alternative being SPC.

I, for one, would love the healer meta to shift to something else for a change. I fear these nerfs don't go far enough though.

Instead of nerfing sets why not buff other ones to switch up the meta that way? Much better than making people grind for a set then nerfing it so that other sets outshine it.

If you always use buffs instead of nerfs to balance things you get power creep, which is bad. Power creep is what has made older dungeons and overland content too easy for some people.

bdembz

zvavi wrote: »

Olorime - Over all it means that olorime still got triple nerf.
Spell power cure - the change to this set to 5 seconds is a massive nerf, because since forever, this set had 1 massive shortcoming, it didn't refresh before it fell off. Making it 5 seconds short will make dds lose anywhere between 0 and 1 seconds between procs even when they have a hot ticking on them and they are mostly topped. Resulting in overall estimated uptime of 90%. If there is damage incoming in waves here and there? It will go down a lot.
If you are lowering the buff time, at least let the set refresh before it comes off, but I think it would be better to just higher the time back up especially since it seems that olorime will have x4 the buff time spc gets, I think the gap is too big.

Not jumping into the SPC vs Olo argument, but I did just check on PTS, and SPC is refreshing before the 5 seconds are up.

Tested using altar + blockade/shards on a non iron atronach dummy.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Merciful17 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Merciful17 wrote: »

Man why are they nerfing healing sets in the first place...

Maybe because Olorime is basically considered mandatory, with the only remotely viable alternative being SPC.

I, for one, would love the healer meta to shift to something else for a change. I fear these nerfs don't go far enough though.

Instead of nerfing sets why not buff other ones to switch up the meta that way? Much better than making people grind for a set then nerfing it so that other sets outshine it.

Maybe because the stronger set are overperforming
And not the other that are underperforming

WrathOfInnos

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Merciful17 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Merciful17 wrote: »

Man why are they nerfing healing sets in the first place...

Maybe because Olorime is basically considered mandatory, with the only remotely viable alternative being SPC.

I, for one, would love the healer meta to shift to something else for a change. I fear these nerfs don't go far enough though.

Instead of nerfing sets why not buff other ones to switch up the meta that way? Much better than making people grind for a set then nerfing it so that other sets outshine it.

If you always use buffs instead of nerfs to balance things you get power creep, which is bad. Power creep is what has made older dungeons and overland content too easy for some people.

Power creep is also what has made harder dungeons and trials possible for some people. Slow and controlled power creep is good, and allows growth and progression over the years.

karekiz

While I agree *Edit: Meant to say Olo* should be better simply because it requires more work on the casters part. I think the idea that it comes from raid content it must mean its 100% automatically better than other isn't really supported in the game.

Einheryar

karekiz wrote: »

While I agree SPC should be better simply because it requires more work on the casters part. I think the idea that it comes from raid content it must mean its 100% automatically better than other isn't really supported in the game.

SPC is mindless to proc with overhealing (which is fine), while Olo can actually be challenging to time and keep 100% uptime, especially since it will only buff 6 people within a single area of effect heal, unless those 6 people who get buffed move out of the area of effect heal to allow for 6 additional people to be buffed, because it continually rebuffs people with the buff who receive it at first, which means that under normal circumstances buffing more than 6 people in that window is essentially never going to happen.

Which is why Olo definitely needs a fix. It is significantly underpowered in comparison and is significantly more difficult to coordinate and upkeep.

Better idea would be to have them both actually able to buff 12 people, and then multiple people mandated to having these sets on would be reduced and allow for more fluidity/choice.

karekiz

Einheryar wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

While I agree SPC should be better simply because it requires more work on the casters part. I think the idea that it comes from raid content it must mean its 100% automatically better than other isn't really supported in the game.

SPC is mindless to proc with overhealing (which is fine), while Olo can actually be challenging to time and keep 100% uptime, especially since it will only buff 6 people within a single area of effect heal, unless those 6 people who get buffed move out of the area of effect heal to allow for 6 additional people to be buffed, because it continually rebuffs people with the buff who receive it at first, which means that under normal circumstances buffing more than 6 people in that window is essentially never going to happen.

Which is why Olo definitely needs a fix. It is significantly underpowered in comparison and is significantly more difficult to coordinate and upkeep.

Better idea would be to have them both actually able to buff 12 people, and then multiple people mandated to having these sets on would be reduced and allow for more fluidity/choice.

Whoops thats my bad I mean Olo should be better and SPC shouldn't be as good. That was a miss type

Aznarb

bdembz wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Olorime - Over all it means that olorime still got triple nerf.
Spell power cure - the change to this set to 5 seconds is a massive nerf, because since forever, this set had 1 massive shortcoming, it didn't refresh before it fell off. Making it 5 seconds short will make dds lose anywhere between 0 and 1 seconds between procs even when they have a hot ticking on them and they are mostly topped. Resulting in overall estimated uptime of 90%. If there is damage incoming in waves here and there? It will go down a lot.
If you are lowering the buff time, at least let the set refresh before it comes off, but I think it would be better to just higher the time back up especially since it seems that olorime will have x4 the buff time spc gets, I think the gap is too big.

Not jumping into the SPC vs Olo argument, but I did just check on PTS, and SPC is refreshing before the 5 seconds are up.

Tested using altar + blockade/shards on a non iron atronach dummy.

Thank for the test, that good to know they change it.
So if that the case SPC still a decent set despite the duration nerf.

Astrid

karekiz wrote: »

While I agree SPC should be better simply because it requires more work on the casters part. I think the idea that it comes from raid content it must mean its 100% automatically better than other isn't really supported in the game.

Facepalm. It’s completely mindless. There’s no “work” involved in overhealing. Sets like Zens, Martial Knowledge and Roaring Opportunist whilst healing group are more “work”. Olorime isn’t much better in terms of brainless healing set, but placement is key. SPC you could stand and radiant regen spam to your hearts content and provided people are at 100% with Springs/Combat/Class burst/Blood alters ect.. there’s no thought needing to be put into it.

Raid content should absolutely trump dungeon content to an extent. Especially when the sets are dropping perfected versions as they’re desirable. SPC should have its place though. Fights where mobility is high, group is split or dipping in and out of Olorime may be more challenging it would most likely shine. But for your regular stack and burns Olorime shouldn’t suffer for no reason other than to resurrect a set that’s been dead for 84 years. I can’t imagine anything more boring than having to overheal when I could be laying down Major Courage and then getting on with debuffing/buffing and playing mechanics.

p00tx

The whole idea of even having a set that encourages bad healing is kind of ridiculous. If people are not in danger of dying, we shouldn't be standing there and spamming heals at them (overhealing is bad). If our HoTs are placed, we should be focused on keeping up ele drain and fetcher and refreshing altar and blowing horns and placing synergies for tanks and all kinds of other things. This set just encourages bad practices. But if we have to have it, the poorly designed set should not perform better for 12 person content than the well-designed set. This change was just not well thought out.

trackdemon5512

How I see it:

Olo changes are fine, won’t hamper group play, and with the most recent changes not only reinforce stacking play but also allow the healer to more easily move the buff circle. If a healer had two different targets to heal and the Olo circle got placed on a tank rather than DPS this now allows for a faster correction.

SPC is for PVP instead of PVE. The SPC set looks to reinforce the role of a healer in BGs and Cyro instead of the massive self heals that ZOS currently is trying to move away from. Between players with self heals and a dedicated healer wearing this it shouldn’t be hard for a highly mobile group to keep up Maj Courage.

p00tx

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

How I see it:

Olo changes are fine, won’t hamper group play, and with the most recent changes not only reinforce stacking play but also allow the healer to more easily move the buff circle. If a healer had two different targets to heal and the Olo circle got placed on a tank rather than DPS this now allows for a faster correction.

SPC is for PVP instead of PVE. The SPC set looks to reinforce the role of a healer in BGs and Cyro instead of the massive self heals that ZOS currently is trying to move away from. Between players with self heals and a dedicated healer wearing this it shouldn’t be hard for a highly mobile group to keep up Maj Courage.

I'm not sure you understand how Olo is currently set up on PTS. It affects a max of 6 people at one time. There are 8-9 DPS in content that we need to keep the buff on. This current iteration is highly inefficient, and not helpful to raid teams.

Jaimeh

Aznarb wrote: »

But SPC just go destroyed for no reason.

Yup, SPC got destroyed just 'cause Olo got the nerf treatment, since ZOS only balanaces things on paper, and without considering the context and functionality. It'd be nice if SPC made a comeback, it makes it more interesting on the healer to apply the buff (rather than with Olo in which some part of responsibility of getting the buff falls on the DDs too).

Runefang

p00tx wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

How I see it:

Olo changes are fine, won’t hamper group play, and with the most recent changes not only reinforce stacking play but also allow the healer to more easily move the buff circle. If a healer had two different targets to heal and the Olo circle got placed on a tank rather than DPS this now allows for a faster correction.

SPC is for PVP instead of PVE. The SPC set looks to reinforce the role of a healer in BGs and Cyro instead of the massive self heals that ZOS currently is trying to move away from. Between players with self heals and a dedicated healer wearing this it shouldn’t be hard for a highly mobile group to keep up Maj Courage.

I'm not sure you understand how Olo is currently set up on PTS. It affects a max of 6 people at one time. There are 8-9 DPS in content that we need to keep the buff on. This current iteration is highly inefficient, and not helpful to raid teams.

Have you tested that? the changes are worded such that they proc on 6 people each second, so in 2 seconds it'll proc on all DPS in the Olo circle.

trackdemon5512

p00tx wrote: »

I'm not sure you understand how Olo is currently set up on PTS. It affects a max of 6 people at one time. There are 8-9 DPS in content that we need to keep the buff on. This current iteration is highly inefficient, and not helpful to raid teams.

Currently on PTS the way it works is the circle goes down, players walk in, 6 players get major courage, and after 1 second another 6 players can get major courage. All 8 to 9 DDs can get the buff and it will refresh on DDs in ordered turns.

A stacked group should have no issue keeping the buff up on all DDs. The current Week 2 PTS version basically reinforces the need for the group to constantly stack rather than grab the buff and run every which way.

The current PTS version will not mean that groups will need two healers running Olo to keep everyone stacked with the buff. That’s still inefficient.

WrathOfInnos

@trackdemon5512 Can you check if it prioritizes players that do not have Major Courage already? Or those without much duration left?

I’d like to make sure it doesn’t repeatedly give Major Courage to the same 6 players, leaving out 2 if all 8 are stacked. Hopefully it doesn’t work like that, but things like Purge have always struggled with finding the players that actually need it, and instead tend to target those that don’t need it over and over.

FrancisCrawford

bdembz wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Olorime - Over all it means that olorime still got triple nerf.
Spell power cure - the change to this set to 5 seconds is a massive nerf, because since forever, this set had 1 massive shortcoming, it didn't refresh before it fell off. Making it 5 seconds short will make dds lose anywhere between 0 and 1 seconds between procs even when they have a hot ticking on them and they are mostly topped. Resulting in overall estimated uptime of 90%. If there is damage incoming in waves here and there? It will go down a lot.
If you are lowering the buff time, at least let the set refresh before it comes off, but I think it would be better to just higher the time back up especially since it seems that olorime will have x4 the buff time spc gets, I think the gap is too big.

Not jumping into the SPC vs Olo argument, but I did just check on PTS, and SPC is refreshing before the 5 seconds are up.

Tested using altar + blockade/shards on a non iron atronach dummy.

Awesome news.

It means SPC can conceivably be single-barred, just like Olorime, provided you keep going back to that bar.

Olupajmibanan

p00tx wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

How I see it:

Olo changes are fine, won’t hamper group play, and with the most recent changes not only reinforce stacking play but also allow the healer to more easily move the buff circle. If a healer had two different targets to heal and the Olo circle got placed on a tank rather than DPS this now allows for a faster correction.

SPC is for PVP instead of PVE. The SPC set looks to reinforce the role of a healer in BGs and Cyro instead of the massive self heals that ZOS currently is trying to move away from. Between players with self heals and a dedicated healer wearing this it shouldn’t be hard for a highly mobile group to keep up Maj Courage.

I'm not sure you understand how Olo is currently set up on PTS. It affects a max of 6 people at one time. There are 8-9 DPS in content that we need to keep the buff on. This current iteration is highly inefficient, and not helpful to raid teams.

That's not accurate. All 12 players can get Major Courage from one Olo Circle. However, it takes at least 2 seconds to affect everyone, before nerf it was 1 second. Olo circle ticks every second and one tick now can give Major Courage to 6 people down from 12, so first tick tick will affect 6 people, and the second another 6 people.

This all should work pretty well in practice if it is smart buff and checks and prioritizes those with low duration remaining or not having the buff at all. If it isn't smart buff, that would make the set really bad, but that would be a general game flaw (see Combat Prayer/ Minor Berserk issues) and not design flaw of Olorime specificaly.

Jodynn

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Merciful17 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Merciful17 wrote: »

Man why are they nerfing healing sets in the first place...

Maybe because Olorime is basically considered mandatory, with the only remotely viable alternative being SPC.

I, for one, would love the healer meta to shift to something else for a change. I fear these nerfs don't go far enough though.

Instead of nerfing sets why not buff other ones to switch up the meta that way? Much better than making people grind for a set then nerfing it so that other sets outshine it.

If you always use buffs instead of nerfs to balance things you get power creep, which is bad. Power creep is what has made older dungeons and overland content too easy for some people.

Power creep is also what has made harder dungeons and trials possible for some people. Slow and controlled power creep is good, and allows growth and progression over the years.

Then an eventual overhaul if they ever want the old content to be fresh or challenging again.

karekiz

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Merciful17 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Merciful17 wrote: »

Man why are they nerfing healing sets in the first place...

Maybe because Olorime is basically considered mandatory, with the only remotely viable alternative being SPC.

I, for one, would love the healer meta to shift to something else for a change. I fear these nerfs don't go far enough though.

Instead of nerfing sets why not buff other ones to switch up the meta that way? Much better than making people grind for a set then nerfing it so that other sets outshine it.

If you always use buffs instead of nerfs to balance things you get power creep, which is bad. Power creep is what has made older dungeons and overland content too easy for some people.

Power creep is also what has made harder dungeons and trials possible for some people. Slow and controlled power creep is good, and allows growth and progression over the years.

Then an eventual overhaul if they ever want the old content to be fresh or challenging again.

Do they have a history of buffing difficulty of older content? I just recall reducing difficulty most times <Dungeon nerfs / HoF etc>

IMO they are currently trying to find a balance of difficulty atm. Even in dungeons.

Jodynn

karekiz wrote: »

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Merciful17 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Merciful17 wrote: »

Man why are they nerfing healing sets in the first place...

Maybe because Olorime is basically considered mandatory, with the only remotely viable alternative being SPC.

I, for one, would love the healer meta to shift to something else for a change. I fear these nerfs don't go far enough though.

Instead of nerfing sets why not buff other ones to switch up the meta that way? Much better than making people grind for a set then nerfing it so that other sets outshine it.

If you always use buffs instead of nerfs to balance things you get power creep, which is bad. Power creep is what has made older dungeons and overland content too easy for some people.

Power creep is also what has made harder dungeons and trials possible for some people. Slow and controlled power creep is good, and allows growth and progression over the years.

Then an eventual overhaul if they ever want the old content to be fresh or challenging again.

Do they have a history of buffing difficulty of older content? I just recall reducing difficulty most times <Dungeon nerfs / HoF etc>

IMO they are currently trying to find a balance of difficulty atm. Even in dungeons.

No they don't, it's a structure that they should follow.