Crystal Fragments

Beardimus

Give us the stun back and leave it alone lol

Maulkin

katorga wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Alidel wrote: »

Wait, proc'd frags can't proc another frags? I thought, that was the point of change, wasn't it?

The point was to remove one niche sorcerer build from the game; Bombers.
The point was also to make crystal fragments procs a bit weaker and make stamina even stronger.

I've never seen a sorcerer bomber so I doubt that was it. I honestly think they wanted sorcerers to have a spammable but as always they ZoS'd it up.

Yeah, the spammable part is what makes their approach just a mess. This is the only spammable skill that can be interrupted. A class spammable that can be interrupted with a cast time is just worthless.

Snipe can interrupted. Dark Flare can be interrupted. Any non-ultimate ranged cast-time/channel spammable or not, can be interrupted.

Snipe is not a class spammable. Dark flare isn't really a class spammable, jabs is. Jabs cannot be interrupted... and it is a channeled spammable. Point still stands, this is the only CLASS spammable that can be interrupted.

Jabs - cannot
Whip - cannot
Swallow Soul/Veiled Strike - Cannot
Birds - Cannot
Skull - Cannot
Crystal Frags - Interruptable

And that is only the mag version too, the stam version cannot be interrupted. And neither can the stam versions of the other class spammables.

Your reply didn't disprove their point. "Any non-ultimate ranged cast-time/channel spammable or not, can be interrupted."

Has nothing to do with class or being a spammable.

Ranged cast time/channel = interruptible
Melee cast time/channel = not interruptible.
Ranged/Melee instant = not interruptible, obviously.

Ranged cast time/channel:

• Snipe
• Dark Flare
• Crystal Frags (Hard Cast)

Melee cast time/channel:

• Jabs
• Uppercut
• Flurry

Ranged/Melee Instant:

• Whip
• Swallow Soul
• Veiled Strike
• Birds
• Skulls
• Etc, etc...

So yes, Hard Cast Frags is the first CLASS cast time ranged spammable, as a result, it can be interrupted because of the existing ruleset, it's up to ZOS on whether or not it should be allowed to break that ruleset. If it does, then they best be adding Snipe to that list.

The big difference is that the cast time spammables all have decent secondary effects...major defile + empower, defile plus poison, empower (WB), offbalance/stun/snare (DS). So granted you get 10% cost reduction and the chance to proc, but really the proc should get its stun back or set target off balance.

No, the big difference is that cast-time spammable like Dark Flare/Snipe do not have an instant cast proc. Like honestly, how much functionality do you want in a single ability? You want a base cast-time ability that is comparable to others in terms of secondary effects and has a very strong proc on top?

Never understood people who complain after getting buffed to be honest. No one was using hard-cast frags unless it was by accident. So nerfing the damage or secondary effects of that, is completely inconsequential when basically the whole point of the skill is the proc and that's been buffed to provide sustain. You're asking for a stun on hard-cast frags like MagSorc doesn't already have two unblockable stuns in Rune Cage and Streak.

Come on now. Behave.

martijnlv40

Maulkin wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Alidel wrote: »

Wait, proc'd frags can't proc another frags? I thought, that was the point of change, wasn't it?

The point was to remove one niche sorcerer build from the game; Bombers.
The point was also to make crystal fragments procs a bit weaker and make stamina even stronger.

I've never seen a sorcerer bomber so I doubt that was it. I honestly think they wanted sorcerers to have a spammable but as always they ZoS'd it up.

Yeah, the spammable part is what makes their approach just a mess. This is the only spammable skill that can be interrupted. A class spammable that can be interrupted with a cast time is just worthless.

Snipe can interrupted. Dark Flare can be interrupted. Any non-ultimate ranged cast-time/channel spammable or not, can be interrupted.

Snipe is not a class spammable. Dark flare isn't really a class spammable, jabs is. Jabs cannot be interrupted... and it is a channeled spammable. Point still stands, this is the only CLASS spammable that can be interrupted.

Jabs - cannot
Whip - cannot
Swallow Soul/Veiled Strike - Cannot
Birds - Cannot
Skull - Cannot
Crystal Frags - Interruptable

And that is only the mag version too, the stam version cannot be interrupted. And neither can the stam versions of the other class spammables.

Your reply didn't disprove their point. "Any non-ultimate ranged cast-time/channel spammable or not, can be interrupted."

Has nothing to do with class or being a spammable.

Ranged cast time/channel = interruptible
Melee cast time/channel = not interruptible.
Ranged/Melee instant = not interruptible, obviously.

Ranged cast time/channel:

• Snipe
• Dark Flare
• Crystal Frags (Hard Cast)

Melee cast time/channel:

• Jabs
• Uppercut
• Flurry

Ranged/Melee Instant:

• Whip
• Swallow Soul
• Veiled Strike
• Birds
• Skulls
• Etc, etc...

So yes, Hard Cast Frags is the first CLASS cast time ranged spammable, as a result, it can be interrupted because of the existing ruleset, it's up to ZOS on whether or not it should be allowed to break that ruleset. If it does, then they best be adding Snipe to that list.

The big difference is that the cast time spammables all have decent secondary effects...major defile + empower, defile plus poison, empower (WB), offbalance/stun/snare (DS). So granted you get 10% cost reduction and the chance to proc, but really the proc should get its stun back or set target off balance.

No, the big difference is that cast-time spammable like Dark Flare/Snipe do not have an instant cast proc. Like honestly, how much functionality do you want in a single ability? You want a base cast-time ability that is comparable to others in terms of secondary effects and has a very strong proc on top?

Never understood people who complain after getting buffed to be honest. No one was using hard-cast frags unless it was by accident. So nerfing the damage or secondary effects of that, is completely inconsequential when basically the whole point of the skill is the proc and that's been buffed to provide sustain. You're asking for a stun on hard-cast frags like MagSorc doesn't already have two unblockable stuns in Rune Cage and Streak.

Come on now. Behave.

Yeah I agree with this. The sorcerer already has enough options to cc. Honestly I like the changes to the skill. For everyone's that bitching about the <1% damage loss, my testing on the PTS has found a very very very marginal increase of 0,02% (literally a couple of damage more). I'm fine with the changes, but maybe it would be fair to apply the lower 10% resource cost on the next non-ultimate to the procced attack as well. It's not like the little sustain buffs sorcs got are overboard, so I don't see a problem balance wise.

jaws343

Alidel wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

no other class has to slot two spammable to be effective

Necros and blastbones; Wardens and shalks.

Blastbones and shalks are not spammables. They are delayed burst skills, like sorc's curse.

Benawaw89

man sorcs is so whiny, you have the frag proc 66% more damage, cost 50% less magicka, its even heal you from dark magic passive. if you look at DK, whip damage isnt comparable to frag proc.
From PVE standpoint, 1. whip isnt sustainable. Power Lash can only proc once per 10 second (cause boss is immune to off balance for 10 sec)
2. Power Lash proc damage is not even 30% more damage than the normal one.
3. Molten Whip Seething Fury even need 3 Ardent Flame skill to proc not the whip itself.

From Pvp. you have already unblockable stun from streak. you want more stun?
cmon just enjoy it!!!

jaws343

Benawaw89 wrote: »

man sorcs is so whiny, you have the frag proc 66% more damage, cost 50% less magicka, its even heal you from dark magic passive. if you look at DK, whip damage isnt comparable to frag proc.
From PVE standpoint, 1. whip isnt sustainable. Power Lash can only proc once per 10 second (cause boss is immune to off balance for 10 sec)
2. Power Lash proc damage is not even 30% more damage than the normal one.
3. Molten Whip Seething Fury even need 3 Ardent Flame skill to proc not the whip itself.

From Pvp. you have already unblockable stun from streak. you want more stun?
cmon just enjoy it!!!

Whip cannot be interrupted and has no cast time. Relying on a proc to do damage is a terrible approach to a spammable.

precambria

Apox wrote: »

cfrags instant procs need to be able to proc another instant cfrags. period. fix it zos.

10/10

jaws343

I think the biggest thing that keeps getting overlooked here is that the changes that were made to frags were to make them a better spammable.

Those of us arguing for a different approach are saying that their change was not a useful change. The slight reduction of the cast time does not make this a better spammable than before. It doesn't make it viable outside of the current usage for only the proc. The 10% cost reduction and the hard cast proccing the frag won't be viable because the skill still won't be hard cast because the cast time and the interruptible status of the skill makes it subpar to spam. The skill will still require users to slot a second spammable to be viable.

When we are saying that the skill needs more changes, we are saying so because the skill was specifically changed to make it more desirable and we are trying to say that they failed in that intent. No one wants the skill over-powered, just viable. And the hard cast is not viable and will see as much use as it sees on live, which is by new player or when it is accidentally cast. Like, on live it is literally the only spammable ability that players get upset about when they cast it normally and that isn't going to change with the updates.

Maulkin

jaws343 wrote: »

When we are saying that the skill needs more changes, we are saying so because the skill was specifically changed to make it more desirable and we are trying to say that they failed in that intent. No one wants the skill over-powered, just viable. And the hard cast is not viable and will see as much use as it sees on live, which is by new player or when it is accidentally cast. Like, on live it is literally the only spammable ability that players get upset about when they cast it normally and that isn't going to change with the updates.

Yeah I understand that, but I see ZOS' intent as a bit miss-guided. You can't easily make the same skill be both a workable spammable and a burst skill without running into balancing issues.

If hard-cast frags had the same damage as the proc, like a magicka snipe, people would still get annoyed for getting caught hard-casting. In PvE because it's a dps loss and in PvP there's the extra reason of being interrupted and set off-balance. And if it were just an instant-cast spammable instead, with the proc the simply doing more damage for less cost, then people would say it's overpowered as that's literally rolling two highly desirable skills into one.

Honest opinion? The best thing for the magicka morph would be to provide a small passive benefit for being slotted (say 2% cost reduction) and the skill has no hard-cast at all. No un-proc'ed version. It only gets activated when you get a proc and the rest of the time it's greyed on your bar. That would make it so much more desirable, just by virtue of never getting caught hard-casting. No point trying to make it two skills, only for one to always be subpar for balancing reasons.

Yajnho

Except then mag sorc is back to having no spammable ability.

I agree that the spammable should not be the burst skill. But the burst and the execute could be the same.

Make frags the burst/execute and make Mages fury a spammable.

jaws343

Yajnho wrote: »

Except then mag sorc is back to having no spammable ability.

I agree that the spammable should not be the burst skill. But the burst and the execute could be.

Make frags the burst/execute and make Mages fury a spammable.

Or even make it something like a chain lightning type of attack.

Maulkin

Yajnho wrote: »

Except then mag sorc is back to having no spammable ability.

I agree that the spammable should not be the burst skill. But the burst and the execute could be.

Make frags the burst/execute and make Mages fury a spammable.

There are 3 generic spammables available, so Sorc not having a class-based one is hardly a major issue. By comparison there are no generic burst or execute skills. So having good burst and execute skills is far more important.

An execute is a low-health spammable. You have to have it available when the enemy is at low health, to secure the kill. A burst skill needs to have delay/proc conditions so it can't be spammed. That makes for a terrible mix. If Frags were an execute both PvP and PvE magsorc would be heavily nerfed. Because you wouldn't have a spammable execute on bosses or players when it's needed. And if it were spammable, the damage would be heavily nerfed and it wouldn't be burst damage.

Just because you don't like Crystal Frags, there's no need trying to nerf the class to fit your idea of class identity

Yajnho

Just make the proc the burst and the cast time/non-proc skill scale heavily with damage taken by the target in execute fashion. There is nothing terrible or nerfed about that. It is far more workable than making the spammable and the burst the same skill.

Meanwhile why should I have another skill that does nothing on my bar? Most sorcs are already running either aegis or mage light. Plus pets eat slots on both bars. The LAST thing they need another empty bar slot.

Just because you don’t like lightning doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be the spammable.

Maulkin

Yajnho wrote: »

Just make the proc the burst and the cast time/non-proc skill scale heavily with damage taken by the target in execute fashion. There is nothing terrible or nerfed about that. It is far more workable than making the spammable and the burst the same skill.

Meanwhile why should I have another skill that does nothing on my bar? Most sorcs are already running either aegis or mage light. Plus pets eat slots on both bars. The LAST thing they need another empty bar slot.

Just because you don’t like lightning doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be the spammable.

It's not an empty bar slot if the skill is being used whenever it procs, is it? Do you cast magelight or aegis in your rotation?

If we go by your suggestion, firstly the skill will be hit by nerf complains for rolling two highly valuable skills into one. ZOS would only consider that if one skill is sub-par (as evidenced by the state of un-proc'ed frags over the last 6 years). And if burst or execute are nerfed it will be highly damaging to the class. Secondly there's also the unique mechanic of delayed execute on Mage's Fury which will be lost if it's converted to spammable. And that is also a hugely valuable and unique functionality for PvP.

I don't have an issue with lightning at all, I have an issue with the quality of arguments being used. Which seem poor, just to force the idea that Fury should be spammable. When it's already a universally used (both PvP and PvE), unique skill that is identity-defining on a Sorc.

martijnlv40

Maulkin wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Just make the proc the burst and the cast time/non-proc skill scale heavily with damage taken by the target in execute fashion. There is nothing terrible or nerfed about that. It is far more workable than making the spammable and the burst the same skill.

Meanwhile why should I have another skill that does nothing on my bar? Most sorcs are already running either aegis or mage light. Plus pets eat slots on both bars. The LAST thing they need another empty bar slot.

Just because you don’t like lightning doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be the spammable.

It's not an empty bar slot if the skill is being used whenever it procs, is it? Do you cast magelight or aegis in your rotation?

If we go by your suggestion, firstly the skill will be hit by nerf complains for rolling two highly valuable skills into one. ZOS would only consider that if one skill is sub-par (as evidenced by the state of un-proc'ed frags over the last 6 years). And if burst or execute are nerfed it will be highly damaging to the class. Secondly there's also the unique mechanic of delayed execute on Mage's Fury which will be lost if it's converted to spammable. And that is also a hugely valuable and unique functionality for PvP.

I don't have an issue with lightning at all, I have an issue with the quality of arguments being used. Which seem poor, just to force the idea that Fury should be spammable. When it's already a universally used (both PvP and PvE), unique skill that is identity-defining on a Sorc.

I never see Sorcs using fury in end-game content, it's a pretty much dead skill at the top of the DPS chain. It's probably more often used in lower content, but it's definitely not great skill and could use a rebalance.

Maulkin

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Just make the proc the burst and the cast time/non-proc skill scale heavily with damage taken by the target in execute fashion. There is nothing terrible or nerfed about that. It is far more workable than making the spammable and the burst the same skill.

Meanwhile why should I have another skill that does nothing on my bar? Most sorcs are already running either aegis or mage light. Plus pets eat slots on both bars. The LAST thing they need another empty bar slot.

Just because you don’t like lightning doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be the spammable.

It's not an empty bar slot if the skill is being used whenever it procs, is it? Do you cast magelight or aegis in your rotation?

If we go by your suggestion, firstly the skill will be hit by nerf complains for rolling two highly valuable skills into one. ZOS would only consider that if one skill is sub-par (as evidenced by the state of un-proc'ed frags over the last 6 years). And if burst or execute are nerfed it will be highly damaging to the class. Secondly there's also the unique mechanic of delayed execute on Mage's Fury which will be lost if it's converted to spammable. And that is also a hugely valuable and unique functionality for PvP.

I don't have an issue with lightning at all, I have an issue with the quality of arguments being used. Which seem poor, just to force the idea that Fury should be spammable. When it's already a universally used (both PvP and PvE), unique skill that is identity-defining on a Sorc.

I never see Sorcs using fury in end-game content, it's a pretty much dead skill at the top of the DPS chain. It's probably more often used in lower content, but it's definitely not great skill and could use a rebalance.

Then you're not doing end-game content.

jaws343

Maulkin wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Just make the proc the burst and the cast time/non-proc skill scale heavily with damage taken by the target in execute fashion. There is nothing terrible or nerfed about that. It is far more workable than making the spammable and the burst the same skill.

Meanwhile why should I have another skill that does nothing on my bar? Most sorcs are already running either aegis or mage light. Plus pets eat slots on both bars. The LAST thing they need another empty bar slot.

Just because you don’t like lightning doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be the spammable.

It's not an empty bar slot if the skill is being used whenever it procs, is it? Do you cast magelight or aegis in your rotation?

If we go by your suggestion, firstly the skill will be hit by nerf complains for rolling two highly valuable skills into one. ZOS would only consider that if one skill is sub-par (as evidenced by the state of un-proc'ed frags over the last 6 years). And if burst or execute are nerfed it will be highly damaging to the class. Secondly there's also the unique mechanic of delayed execute on Mage's Fury which will be lost if it's converted to spammable. And that is also a hugely valuable and unique functionality for PvP.

I don't have an issue with lightning at all, I have an issue with the quality of arguments being used. Which seem poor, just to force the idea that Fury should be spammable. When it's already a universally used (both PvP and PvE), unique skill that is identity-defining on a Sorc.

To speak to Fury, many top end PVE builds actually do not run it because it ends up a DPS loss, even at low health. You are better off just continuing your normal rotation. And running it would require you to give up either Inner Light or Bound Aegis, which is not a good idea when pushing DPS.

In PVP, it is definitely used a lot.

But I do agree, the Fury as an execute, and frags as a spammable doesn't need to change. Just need to make frags a better spammable. If that even means removing the proc, then great. If that means making the condition for the proc different, like every third cast of a class skill, or something like that. That could work too. Something like the Whip proc where the condition being met makes the skill more powerful. Many things would be better than having to run two spammables to be viable.

universal_wrath

Dracane wrote: »

Alidel wrote: »

Wait, proc'd frags can't proc another frags? I thought, that was the point of change, wasn't it?

The point was to remove one niche sorcerer build from the game; Bombers.
The point was also to make crystal fragments procs a bit weaker and make stamina even stronger.

Intant proc crytal fragment deals as much damage on PTS as it deals on live, only hard cast damage has been nerfed

Maulkin

jaws343 wrote: »

To speak to Fury, many top end PVE builds actually do not run it because it ends up a DPS loss, even at low health. You are better off just continuing your normal rotation. And running it would require you to give up either Inner Light or Bound Aegis, which is not a good idea when pushing DPS.

In trials, on bosses with significant amounts of HP, it's de rigeur. Going without Fury is very niche and genuinely subpar. If you're running vMA or vBRP then it's not necessary by all accounts. All the highest parses I've seen are with Fury, I've yet to see a non-Fury parse beat a Fury parse. Not in my personal experience and not in youtube content that I'm seeing from top PvErs.

If you have evidence to prove me that non-Fury beats Fury, I'll stand corrected.

Yajnho

Your primary argument against a skill with a cast time that scales as an execute and can proc for an instant cast is ZOS won’t do it, but other arguments are low quality? Isn’t influencing ZOS one of the purposes of threads like these?

You already stated that the spammable and the burst should not be the same, and your answer is that sorc just doesn’t need a spammable. But other arguments are weak? How many threads are there asking for a better class spammable?

What I want at the end of the day is for sorc to have a smoothly operating spammable that has synergy with its passives. Right now crystal does not really meet either criteria- particularly the smoothly operating part. The passives of the class want you to do lightning damage or physical damage, and to slot class skills. Alternate spammables are loosing the class skill slot at the very least, and the lightning damage from staff skills is minimal.

I would love for there to be a lightning spammable. It would be fun and thematic to the class..

However, if crystal has to be the spammable fine, but make it work. Make it instant cast and either make it physical damage (scaling from highest stat) or add magic damage to sorc passives. And just saying Sorc doesn’t need a spammable or ZOS wants a weak skill are not real arguments.

Shantu

I main a MagSorc and personally like the changes, with one exception. I think they have the animation backward. We have this big, double-fisted, channeled animation as the spammable and the single staff force pulse like animation as the proc. Change it around. Make the spammable behave like the current proc and the proc like the current channeled spammable. The currently implementation on PTS is just clumsy and non-intuitive to use.

Doesn't make any visual sense either that a big two-handed, channeled explosion should do far less damage than pointing your stick and someone.

Beyond that, I like the basic concept on what they've done to the skill.

WrathOfInnos

An instant spammable with higher damage procs is not a foreign concept, Flame Lash has worked like that for years. With Frags operating on RNG and Lash on an off-balance or immobilized target, these skills would still feel sufficiently different. And I think that most would agree Flame Lash is in need of a buff, maybe more damage or sustain at the expense of healing.

There’s also the high damage Molten Whip proc after casting 3 other Ardent Flame abilities. Unfortunately nobody really uses this because there is a 5s window to build these stacks and keep the bonus damage, but Dragonknight DoTs with Elf Bane last around 20s. DK also has severe sustain issues. However it’s another example of a spammable that turns into a high damage proc without occupying 2 skill slots.

Maulkin

Yajnho wrote: »

Your primary argument against a skill with a cast time that scales as an execute and can proc for an instant cast is ZOS won’t do it, but other arguments are low quality? Isn’t influencing ZOS one of the purposes of threads like these?

I just don't believe ZOS can be influenced to break the balance so easily. I'm not stopping you from asking for it I merely disagree with it happening from a balance point-of-view. And if it does it happen, it will be short-lived.

Yajnho wrote: »

You already stated that the spammable and the burst should not be the same, and your answer is that sorc just doesn’t need a spammable. But other arguments are weak? How many threads are there asking for a better class spammable?

Just because there are threads asking for something, doesn't mean it's needed. There are, objectively, 3 spammables open to magsorc currently. Ele Weapon, Force Shock and Eviscerate. So it's 100% not needed. Adding a class spammable would be more class identity and I'd welcome it as much as anyone, but it should not be done at the expense of Frags or Fury that are signature burst and execute damage skills.

Yajnho wrote: »

What I want at the end of the day is for sorc to have a smoothly operating spammable that has synergy with its passives. Right now crystal does not really meet either criteria- particularly the smoothly operating part. The passives of the class want you to do lightning damage or physical damage, and to slot class skills. Alternate spammables are loosing the class skill slot at the very least, and the lightning damage from staff skills is minimal.

BfB does not synergise with any class' passives yet everyone is using it. Again what you're saying are wants, not needs. Sorc is not lacking identity or a spammable. More identity would be great but not at the cost of breaking its signature skills. That's all, I'm saying.

Yajnho wrote: »

I would love for there to be a lightning spammable. It would be fun and thematic to the class.

I agree

Yajnho wrote: »

However, if crystal has the spammable fine, but make it work. Make it instant cast and either make it physical damage (scaling from highest stat) or add magic damage to sorc passives.

I don't think that'll ever work properly for the reasons I mentioned at the top.

Yajnho wrote: »

And just saying Sorc doesn’t need a spammable or ZOS wants a weak skill are not real arguments.

It's not a weak argument it's an actual fact though

Crystal Frags is not a weak skill, quite the opposite. It's just a weak spammable.

Maulkin

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

An instant spammable with higher damage procs is not a foreign concept, Flame Lash has worked like that for years. With Frags operating on RNG and Lash on an off-balance or immobilized target, these skills would still feel sufficiently different. And I think that most would agree Flame Lash is in need of a buff, maybe more damage or sustain at the expense of healing.

There’s also the high damage Molten Whip proc after casting 3 other Ardent Flame abilities. Unfortunately nobody really uses this because there is a 5s window to build these stacks and keep the bonus damage, but Dragonknight DoTs with Elf Bane last around 20s. DK also has severe sustain issues. However it’s another example of a spammable that turns into a high damage proc without occupying 2 skill slots.

A Power Lash situation is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. The reason why Power Lash is so diminished as a burst skill, is because it's mixed with a spammable. You have an off-balance cooldown and a Power Lash cool down, in a melee ability. How often do you land Power Lashes vs Frags/Blastbones/Fissures in PvE and PvP. It's a rhetorical question really.

If Frags were to become a good spammable they would surely take away from the burst proc to compensate. And Sorc needs the burst more than it needs a good spammable.

martijnlv40

Maulkin wrote: »

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Just make the proc the burst and the cast time/non-proc skill scale heavily with damage taken by the target in execute fashion. There is nothing terrible or nerfed about that. It is far more workable than making the spammable and the burst the same skill.

Meanwhile why should I have another skill that does nothing on my bar? Most sorcs are already running either aegis or mage light. Plus pets eat slots on both bars. The LAST thing they need another empty bar slot.

Just because you don’t like lightning doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be the spammable.

It's not an empty bar slot if the skill is being used whenever it procs, is it? Do you cast magelight or aegis in your rotation?

If we go by your suggestion, firstly the skill will be hit by nerf complains for rolling two highly valuable skills into one. ZOS would only consider that if one skill is sub-par (as evidenced by the state of un-proc'ed frags over the last 6 years). And if burst or execute are nerfed it will be highly damaging to the class. Secondly there's also the unique mechanic of delayed execute on Mage's Fury which will be lost if it's converted to spammable. And that is also a hugely valuable and unique functionality for PvP.

I don't have an issue with lightning at all, I have an issue with the quality of arguments being used. Which seem poor, just to force the idea that Fury should be spammable. When it's already a universally used (both PvP and PvE), unique skill that is identity-defining on a Sorc.

I never see Sorcs using fury in end-game content, it's a pretty much dead skill at the top of the DPS chain. It's probably more often used in lower content, but it's definitely not great skill and could use a rebalance.

Then you're not doing end-game content.

Alright, I'm sorry, I forgot to specify I play on ps4. I never see any sorc running fury on end-game content on the ps4.
You guys talk about Fury as if there is a choice of running it, but there are just not enough ability slots on a sorc currently to run it. You double bar the pets, use daedric pray, crystal frags and the spammable, and on the backbar you have the minor force ability (either the trap or channeled acceleration), mystic orb and the unstable wall. There's just no space. Removing any of these skills to slot fury equals a dps loss, even though fury will do more dps than your spammable. And don't come at me with parses, that ***'s not the end-game.

Maulkin

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Just make the proc the burst and the cast time/non-proc skill scale heavily with damage taken by the target in execute fashion. There is nothing terrible or nerfed about that. It is far more workable than making the spammable and the burst the same skill.

Meanwhile why should I have another skill that does nothing on my bar? Most sorcs are already running either aegis or mage light. Plus pets eat slots on both bars. The LAST thing they need another empty bar slot.

Just because you don’t like lightning doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be the spammable.

It's not an empty bar slot if the skill is being used whenever it procs, is it? Do you cast magelight or aegis in your rotation?

If we go by your suggestion, firstly the skill will be hit by nerf complains for rolling two highly valuable skills into one. ZOS would only consider that if one skill is sub-par (as evidenced by the state of un-proc'ed frags over the last 6 years). And if burst or execute are nerfed it will be highly damaging to the class. Secondly there's also the unique mechanic of delayed execute on Mage's Fury which will be lost if it's converted to spammable. And that is also a hugely valuable and unique functionality for PvP.

I don't have an issue with lightning at all, I have an issue with the quality of arguments being used. Which seem poor, just to force the idea that Fury should be spammable. When it's already a universally used (both PvP and PvE), unique skill that is identity-defining on a Sorc.

I never see Sorcs using fury in end-game content, it's a pretty much dead skill at the top of the DPS chain. It's probably more often used in lower content, but it's definitely not great skill and could use a rebalance.

Then you're not doing end-game content.

Alright, I'm sorry, I forgot to specify I play on ps4. I never see any sorc running fury on end-game content on the ps4.
You guys talk about Fury as if there is a choice of running it, but there are just not enough ability slots on a sorc currently to run it. You double bar the pets, use daedric pray, crystal frags and the spammable, and on the backbar you have the minor force ability (either the trap or channeled acceleration), mystic orb and the unstable wall. There's just no space. Removing any of these skills to slot fury equals a dps loss, even though fury will do more dps than your spammable. And don't come at me with parses, that ***'s not the end-game.

If you're using double pets, then there's simply no space for Fury like you said unless someone is Guarding you. If you're using only the Tormentor, then slotting Fury > Magelight/Aegis on anything with a lot of health. While double pet parses marginally higher than single pet (about 1k or 2), having an AoE stun can cause problems with adds and thus is often avoided.

You're telling me you've not seen single pet Sorcs in end-game? At all?

martijnlv40

Maulkin wrote: »

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

Just make the proc the burst and the cast time/non-proc skill scale heavily with damage taken by the target in execute fashion. There is nothing terrible or nerfed about that. It is far more workable than making the spammable and the burst the same skill.

Meanwhile why should I have another skill that does nothing on my bar? Most sorcs are already running either aegis or mage light. Plus pets eat slots on both bars. The LAST thing they need another empty bar slot.

Just because you don’t like lightning doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be the spammable.

It's not an empty bar slot if the skill is being used whenever it procs, is it? Do you cast magelight or aegis in your rotation?

If we go by your suggestion, firstly the skill will be hit by nerf complains for rolling two highly valuable skills into one. ZOS would only consider that if one skill is sub-par (as evidenced by the state of un-proc'ed frags over the last 6 years). And if burst or execute are nerfed it will be highly damaging to the class. Secondly there's also the unique mechanic of delayed execute on Mage's Fury which will be lost if it's converted to spammable. And that is also a hugely valuable and unique functionality for PvP.

I don't have an issue with lightning at all, I have an issue with the quality of arguments being used. Which seem poor, just to force the idea that Fury should be spammable. When it's already a universally used (both PvP and PvE), unique skill that is identity-defining on a Sorc.

I never see Sorcs using fury in end-game content, it's a pretty much dead skill at the top of the DPS chain. It's probably more often used in lower content, but it's definitely not great skill and could use a rebalance.

Then you're not doing end-game content.

Alright, I'm sorry, I forgot to specify I play on ps4. I never see any sorc running fury on end-game content on the ps4.
You guys talk about Fury as if there is a choice of running it, but there are just not enough ability slots on a sorc currently to run it. You double bar the pets, use daedric pray, crystal frags and the spammable, and on the backbar you have the minor force ability (either the trap or channeled acceleration), mystic orb and the unstable wall. There's just no space. Removing any of these skills to slot fury equals a dps loss, even though fury will do more dps than your spammable. And don't come at me with parses, that ***'s not the end-game.

If you're using double pets, then there's simply no space for Fury like you said unless someone is Guarding you. If you're using only the Tormentor, then slotting Fury > Magelight/Aegis on anything with a lot of health. While double pet parses marginally higher than single pet (about 1k or 2), having an AoE stun can cause problems with adds and thus is often avoided.

You're telling me you've not seen single pet Sorcs in end-game? At all?

Honestly don't even know if there are youtubers, except for a few from my guild which only upload for the guild, to watch end-game on ps4, so it's all from my own experience. But no, there's always preferably only 1 sorc in the group (so it's not a zoo), and with doing harder stuff but non end-game stuff it's often a zoo with all the pets around. It's almost always tormentor, scamp and maw. And I personally like non-pet setups better but those parse too low to be allowed in end-game lol.

technohic

Yajnho wrote: »

Except then mag sorc is back to having no spammable ability.

I agree that the spammable should not be the burst skill. But the burst and the execute could be the same.

Make frags the burst/execute and make Mages fury a spammable.

How would you go about this? I think PVP sorcs would be put in a precarious spot as their real trick is delayed burst and execute lines up from precast curse and fury hopefully hitting with a frag proc weaved in.

katorga

On the plus side, with blast gone it now has no AOE component, so it won't get wrecked.

luen79rwb17_ESO

I've done many tries on PTS and no matter what, using this "spammable" is no better than your traditional spammables. I guess I suck with cast times but overall this crystal frag iteration is completely useless to me, not engaging, and clunky as *** for bar swap/use pot, etc. The only "fun" part is your screen shacking like hell lol feels like a FPS. But I guess they'll nerf that too lol