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Why magicka necromancer was NERFED this patch, not buffed
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Merciful17✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »Thanks. I've healed most dungeons in the game, but I've never done a trial. So I'm used to my destro bar being pretty much for damage. E.g. Crushing Shock which also interrupts, Reflective Light which also procs passives, Spear/Shards, Blockade, and maybe not even Elemental Drain because I have Siphon Spirit on the resto bar instead.
I gather trial healing is rather different from that.Merciful17 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »
You clearly need to move on to another class, the Magcro is not for you/not your play style, and that's ok, different strokes and all.My main character is the magicka necromancer and I regret it. If I knew how awful the magicka necromancer is, I would NEVER play it. Now I am thinking about changing my main character and forgetting about necromancers forever.
I'll keep mine, as I can put out damage/heals and survive as well as/better than any of my other mag toons. ☠☠☠
Magcro is awesome for soloing, but if you play PvP or do trials and vet dungeons you'll quickly notice how much better every single class is. The only reason to play Magcro in a trial or dungeon is because of their ultimate.
I was actually thinking of dusting off my magcro and healing dungeons with her. The trigger for the idea is that magcros will be able to proc Elemental Catalyst on an AoE more easily than other classes (any magicka class can of course proc it single-target w/ Force Shock). The debuff from the burst heal may not matter much. AoE Breach/Fracture is a good thing. So basically, Magcro looks like a strong class for support in trash fights. Indeed, sustain could even be decent when enemies are dying all over the place, not that sustain should matter in most trash scenarios.
The problem, of course, is that magcro sustain is bad in boss fights. And those of us who don't like to chug expensive pots also regret the lack of Major Sorcery or Major Prophecy.
Magcros make good off-supports, but in trials their heals just aren't good enough. Mainly because they need a corpse on the ground all the time to be able to put out decent healing. I remember playing nCR and both of our healers were necromancers. Basically half the team was dead all the time lol. Their ultimates are really good but other than that templar and warden beat them in every single way.
Necros have a single-target class heal comparable to Templars', which doesn't require a corpse. So should I presume that one or more Templar AoE class heals are important in trials? Extended Ritual in particular?
The only semi-important things templar has that necro doesn't is a large area synergy purge (ritual) and the Mending, Sacred Ground, and Master Ritualist passives (all raw healing numbers and res speed). Non-things to grumble about in the grand scheme when necro has plenty utility to offer in their place.
They also have a great abilitiy that restores both stamina and magicka to their teammates by a synergy. Don't forget they also have a passive that grants them and their group minor sorcery via illuminate, which lasts for 20 secs.
How many people in trials are still getting their synergy from Luminous Shards, rather than Orb?
(Actually, the answer probably depends a lot on player positioning during fights ...)
Personally I find the shards way better since you can aim it where you want it to go. I'm not all too good when it comes to trial heals but when I heal I usually stand a bit in the back and spam combat prayer, shards and try to proc illuminate. Anyways, I think using shards and orb together is probably best. Oh and shards also proc olorime, unlike the orb. Not really relevant since you'll probably have more than one aimable ground ability as a healer but it's still nice.
It really depends on which trial you do. If there is a lot of trash mobs you will generally be running blockade or unstable wall and after putting it down you'll go on your backbar and spam heals. In CR I've found myself spamming heals only lol. I would 100% recommend to run elemental drain instead of siphon spirit because of the huge spell resistance debuff it provides. Usually you'll have 2 supports in trials and if that's the case you could run siphon spirit I guess. But you should really consider getting combat prayer. It is a healer's best spammable since it heals, provides minor armor and spell resistance AND it gives you and your teammates minor beserk which is huge. Honestly in most dungeons you can run a little bit of whatever. I always queue up as a fake healer even for vet dungeons lol. If my teammates are dying I can just slot a little more heals like necros burst heal spammable, spirit mender and thether. It will get me through most content. Can't speak for vet dlc dungeons tho.1 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Merciful17 wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »
You clearly need to move on to another class, the Magcro is not for you/not your play style, and that's ok, different strokes and all.My main character is the magicka necromancer and I regret it. If I knew how awful the magicka necromancer is, I would NEVER play it. Now I am thinking about changing my main character and forgetting about necromancers forever.
I'll keep mine, as I can put out damage/heals and survive as well as/better than any of my other mag toons. ☠☠☠
Magcro is awesome for soloing, but if you play PvP or do trials and vet dungeons you'll quickly notice how much better every single class is. The only reason to play Magcro in a trial or dungeon is because of their ultimate.
I was actually thinking of dusting off my magcro and healing dungeons with her. The trigger for the idea is that magcros will be able to proc Elemental Catalyst on an AoE more easily than other classes (any magicka class can of course proc it single-target w/ Force Shock). The debuff from the burst heal may not matter much. AoE Breach/Fracture is a good thing. So basically, Magcro looks like a strong class for support in trash fights. Indeed, sustain could even be decent when enemies are dying all over the place, not that sustain should matter in most trash scenarios.
The problem, of course, is that magcro sustain is bad in boss fights. And those of us who don't like to chug expensive pots also regret the lack of Major Sorcery or Major Prophecy.
Magcros make good off-supports, but in trials their heals just aren't good enough. Mainly because they need a corpse on the ground all the time to be able to put out decent healing. I remember playing nCR and both of our healers were necromancers. Basically half the team was dead all the time lol. Their ultimates are really good but other than that templar and warden beat them in every single way.
I disagree, my necro heals vet trials just fine, maybe not on par with my templar through raw healing, but buffs and debuffs certainly. I think you just had bad healers and they'd be as bad on any class. As necromancer, you still have access to the same restoration abilities and orbs, blood fountain etc, but the class healing kit is pretty awesome too. Yes corpses are required, but those should be provided by your dps (and really only needed for Enduring and Tether)--you can buff them and keep them standing with all non-class heals and common set buffs and procs, and totem is possibly one of the best abilities I have access to, area CC and protection, perfect. Running the mender and popping summoners armour, or even empowering grasp also increase my healing output, with both the armour and mender giving me corpses to consume. Its different to warden or templar, certainly, but it's fun and by no means a lesser healer than either.
In terms of healing output necromancer is very strong. But abilities like thether and enduring still require a corpse. Templars also have way better passives for healers. They also have a strong passive that grants them and their group minor sorcery. Besides, running orbs and that spear ability is better than running only orbs.
Again, lack of corpses is not a problem I've encountered when healing (you can make them easily enough with an early recast of mender for example); and really the group should be killing stuff faster than I can consume them anyway. My necro is just as good, if not better in some situations than my templar. Templar is and always will be the healer archetype, but they are far from the best in every given scenario, and despite a slightly different approach, necromancer has very few shortfalls. Like i say, I play both, and I actually prefer my necromancer over my templar in vCR and most trials where there is a high mob count on boss encounters. Regardless of the archetype passives on templar, necromancer has sufficient utility to be a healer on par. I don't think you're looking at the whole picture, especially with your heavy focus on corpse count.Merciful17 wrote: »It really depends on which trial you do. If there is a lot of trash mobs you will generally be running blockade or unstable wall and after putting it down you'll go on your backbar and spam heals. In CR I've found myself spamming heals only lol. I would 100% recommend to run elemental drain instead of siphon spirit because of the huge spell resistance debuff it provides. Usually you'll have 2 supports in trials and if that's the case you could run siphon spirit I guess. But you should really consider getting combat prayer. It is a healer's best spammable since it heals, provides minor armor and spell resistance AND it gives you and your teammates minor beserk which is huge. Honestly in most dungeons you can run a little bit of whatever. I always queue up as a fake healer even for vet dungeons lol. If my teammates are dying I can just slot a little more heals like necros burst heal spammable, spirit mender and thether. It will get me through most content. Can't speak for vet dlc dungeons tho.
On combat prayer, you know it has an 8 second duration, right (with a 3240 cost!)? No need to spam, and spam healing anyway? Really? You lay down your hots and buffs, debuffs, some lightning blockade, then top off reactively with regen or fill-in some dps where necessary, no need to spam anything if you know what you're doing--as soon as your team turns you into a spam healer, it's time to gtfo...
Edited by mairwen85 on July 27, 2020 7:07PM0 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I always slot Combat Prayer. Its numbers are pretty borderline for 4-man groups, however, so if the DDs are weak I may swap it out.
I tend to assume the tank is running Pierce Armor, which makes the Major Breach part of Elemental Drain pretty redundant.
And on a dungeon Magcro (similarly Magden), it would be even more redundant yet.
Merciful17 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Thanks. I've healed most dungeons in the game, but I've never done a trial. So I'm used to my destro bar being pretty much for damage. E.g. Crushing Shock which also interrupts, Reflective Light which also procs passives, Spear/Shards, Blockade, and maybe not even Elemental Drain because I have Siphon Spirit on the resto bar instead.
I gather trial healing is rather different from that.Merciful17 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »
You clearly need to move on to another class, the Magcro is not for you/not your play style, and that's ok, different strokes and all.My main character is the magicka necromancer and I regret it. If I knew how awful the magicka necromancer is, I would NEVER play it. Now I am thinking about changing my main character and forgetting about necromancers forever.
I'll keep mine, as I can put out damage/heals and survive as well as/better than any of my other mag toons. ☠☠☠
Magcro is awesome for soloing, but if you play PvP or do trials and vet dungeons you'll quickly notice how much better every single class is. The only reason to play Magcro in a trial or dungeon is because of their ultimate.
I was actually thinking of dusting off my magcro and healing dungeons with her. The trigger for the idea is that magcros will be able to proc Elemental Catalyst on an AoE more easily than other classes (any magicka class can of course proc it single-target w/ Force Shock). The debuff from the burst heal may not matter much. AoE Breach/Fracture is a good thing. So basically, Magcro looks like a strong class for support in trash fights. Indeed, sustain could even be decent when enemies are dying all over the place, not that sustain should matter in most trash scenarios.
The problem, of course, is that magcro sustain is bad in boss fights. And those of us who don't like to chug expensive pots also regret the lack of Major Sorcery or Major Prophecy.
Magcros make good off-supports, but in trials their heals just aren't good enough. Mainly because they need a corpse on the ground all the time to be able to put out decent healing. I remember playing nCR and both of our healers were necromancers. Basically half the team was dead all the time lol. Their ultimates are really good but other than that templar and warden beat them in every single way.
Necros have a single-target class heal comparable to Templars', which doesn't require a corpse. So should I presume that one or more Templar AoE class heals are important in trials? Extended Ritual in particular?
The only semi-important things templar has that necro doesn't is a large area synergy purge (ritual) and the Mending, Sacred Ground, and Master Ritualist passives (all raw healing numbers and res speed). Non-things to grumble about in the grand scheme when necro has plenty utility to offer in their place.
They also have a great abilitiy that restores both stamina and magicka to their teammates by a synergy. Don't forget they also have a passive that grants them and their group minor sorcery via illuminate, which lasts for 20 secs.
How many people in trials are still getting their synergy from Luminous Shards, rather than Orb?
(Actually, the answer probably depends a lot on player positioning during fights ...)
Personally I find the shards way better since you can aim it where you want it to go. I'm not all too good when it comes to trial heals but when I heal I usually stand a bit in the back and spam combat prayer, shards and try to proc illuminate. Anyways, I think using shards and orb together is probably best. Oh and shards also proc olorime, unlike the orb. Not really relevant since you'll probably have more than one aimable ground ability as a healer but it's still nice.
It really depends on which trial you do. If there is a lot of trash mobs you will generally be running blockade or unstable wall and after putting it down you'll go on your backbar and spam heals. In CR I've found myself spamming heals only lol. I would 100% recommend to run elemental drain instead of siphon spirit because of the huge spell resistance debuff it provides. Usually you'll have 2 supports in trials and if that's the case you could run siphon spirit I guess. But you should really consider getting combat prayer. It is a healer's best spammable since it heals, provides minor armor and spell resistance AND it gives you and your teammates minor beserk which is huge. Honestly in most dungeons you can run a little bit of whatever. I always queue up as a fake healer even for vet dungeons lol. If my teammates are dying I can just slot a little more heals like necros burst heal spammable, spirit mender and thether. It will get me through most content. Can't speak for vet dlc dungeons tho.
0 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »I always slot Combat Prayer. Its numbers are pretty borderline for 4-man groups, however, so if the DDs are weak I may swap it out.
I tend to assume the tank is running Pierce Armor, which makes the Major Breach part of Elemental Drain pretty redundant.
And on a dungeon Magcro (similarly Magden), it would be even more redundant yet.Merciful17 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Thanks. I've healed most dungeons in the game, but I've never done a trial. So I'm used to my destro bar being pretty much for damage. E.g. Crushing Shock which also interrupts, Reflective Light which also procs passives, Spear/Shards, Blockade, and maybe not even Elemental Drain because I have Siphon Spirit on the resto bar instead.
I gather trial healing is rather different from that.Merciful17 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »
You clearly need to move on to another class, the Magcro is not for you/not your play style, and that's ok, different strokes and all.My main character is the magicka necromancer and I regret it. If I knew how awful the magicka necromancer is, I would NEVER play it. Now I am thinking about changing my main character and forgetting about necromancers forever.
I'll keep mine, as I can put out damage/heals and survive as well as/better than any of my other mag toons. ☠☠☠
Magcro is awesome for soloing, but if you play PvP or do trials and vet dungeons you'll quickly notice how much better every single class is. The only reason to play Magcro in a trial or dungeon is because of their ultimate.
I was actually thinking of dusting off my magcro and healing dungeons with her. The trigger for the idea is that magcros will be able to proc Elemental Catalyst on an AoE more easily than other classes (any magicka class can of course proc it single-target w/ Force Shock). The debuff from the burst heal may not matter much. AoE Breach/Fracture is a good thing. So basically, Magcro looks like a strong class for support in trash fights. Indeed, sustain could even be decent when enemies are dying all over the place, not that sustain should matter in most trash scenarios.
The problem, of course, is that magcro sustain is bad in boss fights. And those of us who don't like to chug expensive pots also regret the lack of Major Sorcery or Major Prophecy.
Magcros make good off-supports, but in trials their heals just aren't good enough. Mainly because they need a corpse on the ground all the time to be able to put out decent healing. I remember playing nCR and both of our healers were necromancers. Basically half the team was dead all the time lol. Their ultimates are really good but other than that templar and warden beat them in every single way.
Necros have a single-target class heal comparable to Templars', which doesn't require a corpse. So should I presume that one or more Templar AoE class heals are important in trials? Extended Ritual in particular?
The only semi-important things templar has that necro doesn't is a large area synergy purge (ritual) and the Mending, Sacred Ground, and Master Ritualist passives (all raw healing numbers and res speed). Non-things to grumble about in the grand scheme when necro has plenty utility to offer in their place.
They also have a great abilitiy that restores both stamina and magicka to their teammates by a synergy. Don't forget they also have a passive that grants them and their group minor sorcery via illuminate, which lasts for 20 secs.
How many people in trials are still getting their synergy from Luminous Shards, rather than Orb?
(Actually, the answer probably depends a lot on player positioning during fights ...)
Personally I find the shards way better since you can aim it where you want it to go. I'm not all too good when it comes to trial heals but when I heal I usually stand a bit in the back and spam combat prayer, shards and try to proc illuminate. Anyways, I think using shards and orb together is probably best. Oh and shards also proc olorime, unlike the orb. Not really relevant since you'll probably have more than one aimable ground ability as a healer but it's still nice.
It really depends on which trial you do. If there is a lot of trash mobs you will generally be running blockade or unstable wall and after putting it down you'll go on your backbar and spam heals. In CR I've found myself spamming heals only lol. I would 100% recommend to run elemental drain instead of siphon spirit because of the huge spell resistance debuff it provides. Usually you'll have 2 supports in trials and if that's the case you could run siphon spirit I guess. But you should really consider getting combat prayer. It is a healer's best spammable since it heals, provides minor armor and spell resistance AND it gives you and your teammates minor beserk which is huge. Honestly in most dungeons you can run a little bit of whatever. I always queue up as a fake healer even for vet dungeons lol. If my teammates are dying I can just slot a little more heals like necros burst heal spammable, spirit mender and thether. It will get me through most content. Can't speak for vet dlc dungeons tho.
I splat elemental drain on everything, trust me, your magicak dps will love you. Not for breach but for magicka steal, although breach is useful on targets the tank may ignore or miss--unnerving boneyard is a necromancer specific option you could try through
Edited by mairwen85 on July 27, 2020 7:14PM0 -
Merciful17✭✭✭Merciful17 wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »
You clearly need to move on to another class, the Magcro is not for you/not your play style, and that's ok, different strokes and all.My main character is the magicka necromancer and I regret it. If I knew how awful the magicka necromancer is, I would NEVER play it. Now I am thinking about changing my main character and forgetting about necromancers forever.
I'll keep mine, as I can put out damage/heals and survive as well as/better than any of my other mag toons. ☠☠☠
Magcro is awesome for soloing, but if you play PvP or do trials and vet dungeons you'll quickly notice how much better every single class is. The only reason to play Magcro in a trial or dungeon is because of their ultimate.
I was actually thinking of dusting off my magcro and healing dungeons with her. The trigger for the idea is that magcros will be able to proc Elemental Catalyst on an AoE more easily than other classes (any magicka class can of course proc it single-target w/ Force Shock). The debuff from the burst heal may not matter much. AoE Breach/Fracture is a good thing. So basically, Magcro looks like a strong class for support in trash fights. Indeed, sustain could even be decent when enemies are dying all over the place, not that sustain should matter in most trash scenarios.
The problem, of course, is that magcro sustain is bad in boss fights. And those of us who don't like to chug expensive pots also regret the lack of Major Sorcery or Major Prophecy.
Magcros make good off-supports, but in trials their heals just aren't good enough. Mainly because they need a corpse on the ground all the time to be able to put out decent healing. I remember playing nCR and both of our healers were necromancers. Basically half the team was dead all the time lol. Their ultimates are really good but other than that templar and warden beat them in every single way.
I disagree, my necro heals vet trials just fine, maybe not on par with my templar through raw healing, but buffs and debuffs certainly. I think you just had bad healers and they'd be as bad on any class. As necromancer, you still have access to the same restoration abilities and orbs, blood fountain etc, but the class healing kit is pretty awesome too. Yes corpses are required, but those should be provided by your dps (and really only needed for Enduring and Tether)--you can buff them and keep them standing with all non-class heals and common set buffs and procs, and totem is possibly one of the best abilities I have access to, area CC and protection, perfect. Running the mender and popping summoners armour, or even empowering grasp also increase my healing output, with both the armour and mender giving me corpses to consume. Its different to warden or templar, certainly, but it's fun and by no means a lesser healer than either.
In terms of healing output necromancer is very strong. But abilities like thether and enduring still require a corpse. Templars also have way better passives for healers. They also have a strong passive that grants them and their group minor sorcery. Besides, running orbs and that spear ability is better than running only orbs.
Again, lack of corpses is not a problem I've encountered when healing (you can make them easily enough with an early recast of mender for example); and really the group should be killing stuff faster than I can consume them anyway. My necro is just as good, if not better in some situations than my templar. Templar is and always will be the healer archetype, but they are far from the best in every given scenario, and despite a slightly different approach, necromancer has very few shortfalls. Like i say, I play both, and I actually prefer my necromancer over my templar in vCR and most trials where there is a high mob count on boss encounters. Regardless of the archetype passives on templar, necromancer has sufficient utility to be a healer on par. I don't think you're looking at the whole picture, especially with your heavy focus on corpse count.Merciful17 wrote: »It really depends on which trial you do. If there is a lot of trash mobs you will generally be running blockade or unstable wall and after putting it down you'll go on your backbar and spam heals. In CR I've found myself spamming heals only lol. I would 100% recommend to run elemental drain instead of siphon spirit because of the huge spell resistance debuff it provides. Usually you'll have 2 supports in trials and if that's the case you could run siphon spirit I guess. But you should really consider getting combat prayer. It is a healer's best spammable since it heals, provides minor armor and spell resistance AND it gives you and your teammates minor beserk which is huge. Honestly in most dungeons you can run a little bit of whatever. I always queue up as a fake healer even for vet dungeons lol. If my teammates are dying I can just slot a little more heals like necros burst heal spammable, spirit mender and thether. It will get me through most content. Can't speak for vet dlc dungeons tho.
On combat prayer, you know it has an 8 second duration, right (with a 3240 cost!)? No need to spam, and spam healing anyway? Really? You lay down your hots and buffs, debuffs, some lightning blockade, then top off reactively with regen or fill-in some dps where necessary, no need to spam anything if you know what you're doing--as soon as your team turns you into a spam healer, it's time to gtfo...
The fact that you need corpses is still a downside compared to templar tho. Necromancer also doesn't have any passives or abilities that grant your teammates resources. Meanwhile warden's spam heal grants minor stam recovery and mag recovery and templars have shards which grants your teammates resources back. The only two things necromancer has that makes them unique is a revive ultimate and necro smash. Revive is great but won't be used in experienced groups where people try to go for achivements where you're not allowed to die. Necro smash is awesome because of the debuff but a dps necromancer has more use of it because it will deal more damage.
Anyways, necromancers are by no means bad healers, but almost always warden and templar will be more useful.0 -
Selot✭✭✭
You clearly need to move on to another class, the Magcro is not for you/not your play style, and that's ok, different strokes and all.My main character is the magicka necromancer and I regret it. If I knew how awful the magicka necromancer is, I would NEVER play it. Now I am thinking about changing my main character and forgetting about necromancers forever.
I'll keep mine, as I can put out damage/heals and survive as well as/better than any of my other mag toons. ☠☠☠
Don't agree. That isn't about my playstyle. This class isn't playable at all. It is always ridiculous when templars or sorcerers say that necromancers are good and I just need to learn how to play it. I created necromancer in order to be unique because literally no one played magicka necro. And now I realize why. I gave up. I can't play it anymore. I'd rather be nightblade, even though it is a popular class, than play unique magicka necromancer which is clunky and isn't enjoyable.
> I can survive as well as/better than any of my other mag toons.
What an amusing statement! Every class except necro and warden has healing spam ability. What necromancer's survivability are you talking about? Almost every class can just deal damage in order to heal whilst necro deals damage, then heals, then deals damage, then heals and so on. It means that you have to heal instead of dealing damage.1 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »I always slot Combat Prayer. Its numbers are pretty borderline for 4-man groups, however, so if the DDs are weak I may swap it out.
I tend to assume the tank is running Pierce Armor, which makes the Major Breach part of Elemental Drain pretty redundant.
And on a dungeon Magcro (similarly Magden), it would be even more redundant yet.Merciful17 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Thanks. I've healed most dungeons in the game, but I've never done a trial. So I'm used to my destro bar being pretty much for damage. E.g. Crushing Shock which also interrupts, Reflective Light which also procs passives, Spear/Shards, Blockade, and maybe not even Elemental Drain because I have Siphon Spirit on the resto bar instead.
I gather trial healing is rather different from that.Merciful17 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »
You clearly need to move on to another class, the Magcro is not for you/not your play style, and that's ok, different strokes and all.My main character is the magicka necromancer and I regret it. If I knew how awful the magicka necromancer is, I would NEVER play it. Now I am thinking about changing my main character and forgetting about necromancers forever.
I'll keep mine, as I can put out damage/heals and survive as well as/better than any of my other mag toons. ☠☠☠
Magcro is awesome for soloing, but if you play PvP or do trials and vet dungeons you'll quickly notice how much better every single class is. The only reason to play Magcro in a trial or dungeon is because of their ultimate.
I was actually thinking of dusting off my magcro and healing dungeons with her. The trigger for the idea is that magcros will be able to proc Elemental Catalyst on an AoE more easily than other classes (any magicka class can of course proc it single-target w/ Force Shock). The debuff from the burst heal may not matter much. AoE Breach/Fracture is a good thing. So basically, Magcro looks like a strong class for support in trash fights. Indeed, sustain could even be decent when enemies are dying all over the place, not that sustain should matter in most trash scenarios.
The problem, of course, is that magcro sustain is bad in boss fights. And those of us who don't like to chug expensive pots also regret the lack of Major Sorcery or Major Prophecy.
Magcros make good off-supports, but in trials their heals just aren't good enough. Mainly because they need a corpse on the ground all the time to be able to put out decent healing. I remember playing nCR and both of our healers were necromancers. Basically half the team was dead all the time lol. Their ultimates are really good but other than that templar and warden beat them in every single way.
Necros have a single-target class heal comparable to Templars', which doesn't require a corpse. So should I presume that one or more Templar AoE class heals are important in trials? Extended Ritual in particular?
The only semi-important things templar has that necro doesn't is a large area synergy purge (ritual) and the Mending, Sacred Ground, and Master Ritualist passives (all raw healing numbers and res speed). Non-things to grumble about in the grand scheme when necro has plenty utility to offer in their place.
They also have a great abilitiy that restores both stamina and magicka to their teammates by a synergy. Don't forget they also have a passive that grants them and their group minor sorcery via illuminate, which lasts for 20 secs.
How many people in trials are still getting their synergy from Luminous Shards, rather than Orb?
(Actually, the answer probably depends a lot on player positioning during fights ...)
Personally I find the shards way better since you can aim it where you want it to go. I'm not all too good when it comes to trial heals but when I heal I usually stand a bit in the back and spam combat prayer, shards and try to proc illuminate. Anyways, I think using shards and orb together is probably best. Oh and shards also proc olorime, unlike the orb. Not really relevant since you'll probably have more than one aimable ground ability as a healer but it's still nice.
It really depends on which trial you do. If there is a lot of trash mobs you will generally be running blockade or unstable wall and after putting it down you'll go on your backbar and spam heals. In CR I've found myself spamming heals only lol. I would 100% recommend to run elemental drain instead of siphon spirit because of the huge spell resistance debuff it provides. Usually you'll have 2 supports in trials and if that's the case you could run siphon spirit I guess. But you should really consider getting combat prayer. It is a healer's best spammable since it heals, provides minor armor and spell resistance AND it gives you and your teammates minor beserk which is huge. Honestly in most dungeons you can run a little bit of whatever. I always queue up as a fake healer even for vet dungeons lol. If my teammates are dying I can just slot a little more heals like necros burst heal spammable, spirit mender and thether. It will get me through most content. Can't speak for vet dlc dungeons tho.
I splat elemental drain on everything, trust me, your magicak dps will love you. Not for breach but for magicka steal, although breach is useful on targets the tank may ignore or miss--unnerving boneyard is a necromancer specific option you could try through
Wait -- Elemental Drain can be active on multiple enemies at once? I need to test that again.
Is the same true for Siphon Spirit?0 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Merciful17 wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »
You clearly need to move on to another class, the Magcro is not for you/not your play style, and that's ok, different strokes and all.My main character is the magicka necromancer and I regret it. If I knew how awful the magicka necromancer is, I would NEVER play it. Now I am thinking about changing my main character and forgetting about necromancers forever.
I'll keep mine, as I can put out damage/heals and survive as well as/better than any of my other mag toons. ☠☠☠
Magcro is awesome for soloing, but if you play PvP or do trials and vet dungeons you'll quickly notice how much better every single class is. The only reason to play Magcro in a trial or dungeon is because of their ultimate.
I was actually thinking of dusting off my magcro and healing dungeons with her. The trigger for the idea is that magcros will be able to proc Elemental Catalyst on an AoE more easily than other classes (any magicka class can of course proc it single-target w/ Force Shock). The debuff from the burst heal may not matter much. AoE Breach/Fracture is a good thing. So basically, Magcro looks like a strong class for support in trash fights. Indeed, sustain could even be decent when enemies are dying all over the place, not that sustain should matter in most trash scenarios.
The problem, of course, is that magcro sustain is bad in boss fights. And those of us who don't like to chug expensive pots also regret the lack of Major Sorcery or Major Prophecy.
Magcros make good off-supports, but in trials their heals just aren't good enough. Mainly because they need a corpse on the ground all the time to be able to put out decent healing. I remember playing nCR and both of our healers were necromancers. Basically half the team was dead all the time lol. Their ultimates are really good but other than that templar and warden beat them in every single way.
I disagree, my necro heals vet trials just fine, maybe not on par with my templar through raw healing, but buffs and debuffs certainly. I think you just had bad healers and they'd be as bad on any class. As necromancer, you still have access to the same restoration abilities and orbs, blood fountain etc, but the class healing kit is pretty awesome too. Yes corpses are required, but those should be provided by your dps (and really only needed for Enduring and Tether)--you can buff them and keep them standing with all non-class heals and common set buffs and procs, and totem is possibly one of the best abilities I have access to, area CC and protection, perfect. Running the mender and popping summoners armour, or even empowering grasp also increase my healing output, with both the armour and mender giving me corpses to consume. Its different to warden or templar, certainly, but it's fun and by no means a lesser healer than either.
In terms of healing output necromancer is very strong. But abilities like thether and enduring still require a corpse. Templars also have way better passives for healers. They also have a strong passive that grants them and their group minor sorcery. Besides, running orbs and that spear ability is better than running only orbs.
Again, lack of corpses is not a problem I've encountered when healing (you can make them easily enough with an early recast of mender for example); and really the group should be killing stuff faster than I can consume them anyway. My necro is just as good, if not better in some situations than my templar. Templar is and always will be the healer archetype, but they are far from the best in every given scenario, and despite a slightly different approach, necromancer has very few shortfalls. Like i say, I play both, and I actually prefer my necromancer over my templar in vCR and most trials where there is a high mob count on boss encounters. Regardless of the archetype passives on templar, necromancer has sufficient utility to be a healer on par. I don't think you're looking at the whole picture, especially with your heavy focus on corpse count.Merciful17 wrote: »It really depends on which trial you do. If there is a lot of trash mobs you will generally be running blockade or unstable wall and after putting it down you'll go on your backbar and spam heals. In CR I've found myself spamming heals only lol. I would 100% recommend to run elemental drain instead of siphon spirit because of the huge spell resistance debuff it provides. Usually you'll have 2 supports in trials and if that's the case you could run siphon spirit I guess. But you should really consider getting combat prayer. It is a healer's best spammable since it heals, provides minor armor and spell resistance AND it gives you and your teammates minor beserk which is huge. Honestly in most dungeons you can run a little bit of whatever. I always queue up as a fake healer even for vet dungeons lol. If my teammates are dying I can just slot a little more heals like necros burst heal spammable, spirit mender and thether. It will get me through most content. Can't speak for vet dlc dungeons tho.
On combat prayer, you know it has an 8 second duration, right (with a 3240 cost!)? No need to spam, and spam healing anyway? Really? You lay down your hots and buffs, debuffs, some lightning blockade, then top off reactively with regen or fill-in some dps where necessary, no need to spam anything if you know what you're doing--as soon as your team turns you into a spam healer, it's time to gtfo...
The fact that you need corpses is still a downside compared to templar tho.You don't lead with tether or enduring though, those are quite literally the last heals you put out.
I can do this:
Summoner's Armor > Mender > blockade of storms > totem > combat prayer > healing springs > orbs > regen > Mender
and voila, I have a corpse. Every 20s I have 2 corpses; if the dps in my group is good enough, I have a pile of corpses...
Necromancer also doesn't have any passives or abilities that grant your teammates resources. Meanwhile warden's spam heal grants minor stam recovery and mag recovery and templars have shards which grants your teammates resources back. The only two things necromancer has that makes them unique is a revive ultimate and necro smash.passively maim, protection, vulnerability on demand
Revive is great but won't be used in experienced groups where people try to go for achivements where you're not allowed to die. Necro smash is awesome because of the debuff but a dps necromancer has more use of it because it will deal more damage.probably better to be running Aggressive Horn/Light's Champion and barrier anyway (like every other healer on any class)
Anyways, necromancers are by no means bad healers, but almost always warden and templar will be more useful.
We're going to have to agree to disagree on that point. Necromancer has other utility that more than makes up for this and with sets like hollowfang and symphony of blades, your resource argument is a moot point anyway. Regardless, your initial stance (which you have changed since we started our exchange) was that Necromancer could not keep up with templars or wardens on heals; in fact, you posited that their ability to output enough heals was demonstrable in how you had an nCR group die due to lack of healing. My counterpoint there was that you simply had encountered a bad set of healers and my reasoning behind that--seeing as you've now shifted your focus onto resource recovery implies you agree on that? I said in an earlier post that the method of healing on necromancer is different to warden and templar, there is a greater focus on debuffing, i.e. reducing incoming damage and increasing damage dealt along with continuous healing and sustain aid... I think that's where you're possibly losing sight of the bigger picture. One class may have better ability at retaining resource so damage can be dealt out continuously, whereas another class increases damage dealt and decreases incoming damage done such that resource drain is lower.
Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree.FrancisCrawford wrote: »Wait -- Elemental Drain can be active on multiple enemies at once? I need to test that again.
Yep, you can chuck on as many targets as you like at 0 cost--it's one of my biggest annoyances seeing healers not use it. It's a no brainer
Siphon Spirit can also affect multiple targets (and has no cost). I prefer ele drain bacause I can back bar it with my destro and have a free front bar slot for other healing skills off the resto line (and for breach in cases I alluded to earlier), but I do have it unlocked and levelled just in case some raid leader wants it.
Edited by mairwen85 on July 28, 2020 8:52AM1 -
Sneakers✭✭✭ZOS over nefing again.
So they go from 105% harmony to 60%?
A nerf of 175%..(1,75)
Why not reduce the legendary item %age from 35% to say 30% to start off with?
If that isn't enough then try 25%?
I can count on 1 hand the times I have been killed by templar Nova synergies, might have happend 2 times in 6 months.
Magcro graveyard bombs happen from time to time, but its often 2-3 necros smacking you with multiple graveyards in a 10+ size group in which case you are dead whatever spells they use on you. Getting hit by harmony graveyards for 7-10k dmg isn't over the top imo.
Leap costs 75 ulti and tooltips for 33k on many Dks hitting people for 10-12k damage. It is basically a spammable with that low ulti cost. Why is that OK but graveyard hitting for 7-10k isnt?
If you get hit by graveyard for 15k then you have been debuffed plus the bomber has insane spell damage to boost graveyard to 20k+ base damage. That is the same as when NB bombers manage to bomb a group of people in one go. It is a very nished build that is a 1 trick pony.
What should Magnecros use instead of graveyard now?
Nah, this nerf is a classic ZOS knee jerk reaction not thought through and will be poorly recieved, 5th patch in a row that will not be of an acceptable standard for an AAA game.Edited by Sneakers on July 28, 2020 4:03PM1 -
Sneakers✭✭✭Absolutely agree with the author of this thread. Magcro is the most clunky class in the game atm. Our spammable is ranged, but it is so slow and can be easily dodged, whilst templar's puncturing sweep deals more damage, heals you, snared enemies, attacks groups of people, and isn't bugged.
Blastbones still doesn't work properly.
Mystic siphon needs several attempts to start working.
Skeletal arcanist deals small damage comparing to other classes' abilities. It needs major sorcery.
Render flesh is a good healing skill but why does it apply minor defile? What's the purpose? Templar's healing skill is the same but it doesn't apply negative effects.
Summoner's armor has stupid and weak bonus which decreases cost of summoning abilities by 15%.
Totem is a very interesting skill but it is slow and doesn't help in PvP in most cases.
Grave grasp is the most useless skill in the game atm. And now on PTS it became even worse. Every patch of skeletal hands used to stun enemy but now only 3 one does it. And it takes more than 1 second for 3rd patch to appear. This skill is a rubbish and NO ONE will use it. We do need a good working and useful CC skill..
Ghost is bugged as well as other necromancer skills are. Sometimes it doesn't heal at all.
Magicka necromancer is the worst class in the game right now. People still play it because of colossus and roleplay. If you remove colossus, be sure that 90% of the necromancers will delete their necro characters and never come back. My main character is the magicka necromancer and I regret it. If I knew how awful the magicka necromancer is, I would NEVER play it. Now I am thinking about changing my main character and forgetting about necromancers forever.
Magden seems real OPed with new proc sets comming. Also you don't need to do Psijic quests since warden has minor protection built in the class skills LLlllLllllooooaded. 0 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭When your entire playstyle crutches on one thing to survive, it means its time to rethink your build. That's the hard truth about it, regardless of the state a class is in.1 -
Merciful17✭✭✭Merciful17 wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »
You clearly need to move on to another class, the Magcro is not for you/not your play style, and that's ok, different strokes and all.My main character is the magicka necromancer and I regret it. If I knew how awful the magicka necromancer is, I would NEVER play it. Now I am thinking about changing my main character and forgetting about necromancers forever.
I'll keep mine, as I can put out damage/heals and survive as well as/better than any of my other mag toons. ☠☠☠
Magcro is awesome for soloing, but if you play PvP or do trials and vet dungeons you'll quickly notice how much better every single class is. The only reason to play Magcro in a trial or dungeon is because of their ultimate.
I was actually thinking of dusting off my magcro and healing dungeons with her. The trigger for the idea is that magcros will be able to proc Elemental Catalyst on an AoE more easily than other classes (any magicka class can of course proc it single-target w/ Force Shock). The debuff from the burst heal may not matter much. AoE Breach/Fracture is a good thing. So basically, Magcro looks like a strong class for support in trash fights. Indeed, sustain could even be decent when enemies are dying all over the place, not that sustain should matter in most trash scenarios.
The problem, of course, is that magcro sustain is bad in boss fights. And those of us who don't like to chug expensive pots also regret the lack of Major Sorcery or Major Prophecy.
Magcros make good off-supports, but in trials their heals just aren't good enough. Mainly because they need a corpse on the ground all the time to be able to put out decent healing. I remember playing nCR and both of our healers were necromancers. Basically half the team was dead all the time lol. Their ultimates are really good but other than that templar and warden beat them in every single way.
I disagree, my necro heals vet trials just fine, maybe not on par with my templar through raw healing, but buffs and debuffs certainly. I think you just had bad healers and they'd be as bad on any class. As necromancer, you still have access to the same restoration abilities and orbs, blood fountain etc, but the class healing kit is pretty awesome too. Yes corpses are required, but those should be provided by your dps (and really only needed for Enduring and Tether)--you can buff them and keep them standing with all non-class heals and common set buffs and procs, and totem is possibly one of the best abilities I have access to, area CC and protection, perfect. Running the mender and popping summoners armour, or even empowering grasp also increase my healing output, with both the armour and mender giving me corpses to consume. Its different to warden or templar, certainly, but it's fun and by no means a lesser healer than either.
In terms of healing output necromancer is very strong. But abilities like thether and enduring still require a corpse. Templars also have way better passives for healers. They also have a strong passive that grants them and their group minor sorcery. Besides, running orbs and that spear ability is better than running only orbs.
Again, lack of corpses is not a problem I've encountered when healing (you can make them easily enough with an early recast of mender for example); and really the group should be killing stuff faster than I can consume them anyway. My necro is just as good, if not better in some situations than my templar. Templar is and always will be the healer archetype, but they are far from the best in every given scenario, and despite a slightly different approach, necromancer has very few shortfalls. Like i say, I play both, and I actually prefer my necromancer over my templar in vCR and most trials where there is a high mob count on boss encounters. Regardless of the archetype passives on templar, necromancer has sufficient utility to be a healer on par. I don't think you're looking at the whole picture, especially with your heavy focus on corpse count.Merciful17 wrote: »It really depends on which trial you do. If there is a lot of trash mobs you will generally be running blockade or unstable wall and after putting it down you'll go on your backbar and spam heals. In CR I've found myself spamming heals only lol. I would 100% recommend to run elemental drain instead of siphon spirit because of the huge spell resistance debuff it provides. Usually you'll have 2 supports in trials and if that's the case you could run siphon spirit I guess. But you should really consider getting combat prayer. It is a healer's best spammable since it heals, provides minor armor and spell resistance AND it gives you and your teammates minor beserk which is huge. Honestly in most dungeons you can run a little bit of whatever. I always queue up as a fake healer even for vet dungeons lol. If my teammates are dying I can just slot a little more heals like necros burst heal spammable, spirit mender and thether. It will get me through most content. Can't speak for vet dlc dungeons tho.
On combat prayer, you know it has an 8 second duration, right (with a 3240 cost!)? No need to spam, and spam healing anyway? Really? You lay down your hots and buffs, debuffs, some lightning blockade, then top off reactively with regen or fill-in some dps where necessary, no need to spam anything if you know what you're doing--as soon as your team turns you into a spam healer, it's time to gtfo...
The fact that you need corpses is still a downside compared to templar tho.You don't lead with tether or enduring though, those are quite literally the last heals you put out.
I can do this:
Summoner's Armor > Mender > blockade of storms > totem > combat prayer > healing springs > orbs > regen > Mender
and voila, I have a corpse. Every 20s I have 2 corpses; if the dps in my group is good enough, I have a pile of corpses...
Necromancer also doesn't have any passives or abilities that grant your teammates resources. Meanwhile warden's spam heal grants minor stam recovery and mag recovery and templars have shards which grants your teammates resources back. The only two things necromancer has that makes them unique is a revive ultimate and necro smash.passively maim, protection, vulnerability on demand
Revive is great but won't be used in experienced groups where people try to go for achivements where you're not allowed to die. Necro smash is awesome because of the debuff but a dps necromancer has more use of it because it will deal more damage.probably better to be running Aggressive Horn/Light's Champion and barrier anyway (like every other healer on any class)
Anyways, necromancers are by no means bad healers, but almost always warden and templar will be more useful.
We're going to have to agree to disagree on that point. Necromancer has other utility that more than makes up for this and with sets like hollowfang and symphony of blades, your resource argument is a moot point anyway. Regardless, your initial stance (which you have changed since we started our exchange) was that Necromancer could not keep up with templars or wardens on heals; in fact, you posited that their ability to output enough heals was demonstrable in how you had an nCR group die due to lack of healing. My counterpoint there was that you simply had encountered a bad set of healers and my reasoning behind that--seeing as you've now shifted your focus onto resource recovery implies you agree on that? I said in an earlier post that the method of healing on necromancer is different to warden and templar, there is a greater focus on debuffing, i.e. reducing incoming damage and increasing damage dealt along with continuous healing and sustain aid... I think that's where you're possibly losing sight of the bigger picture. One class may have better ability at retaining resource so damage can be dealt out continuously, whereas another class increases damage dealt and decreases incoming damage done such that resource drain is lower.
Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree.FrancisCrawford wrote: »Wait -- Elemental Drain can be active on multiple enemies at once? I need to test that again.
Yep, you can chuck on as many targets as you like at 0 cost--it's one of my biggest annoyances seeing healers not use it. It's a no brainer
Siphon Spirit can also affect multiple targets (and has no cost). I prefer ele drain bacause I can back bar it with my destro and have a free front bar slot for other healing skills off the resto line (and for breach in cases I alluded to earlier), but I do have it unlocked and levelled just in case some raid leader wants it.
Usually templar healers use the nova ult, which inflicts major maim and gives a synergy that deals a lot of damage. I guess what you could say is that Necromancers make good healers but bad supports compared to warden and templar, if you catch my meaning. Their heals are at least top 3, but healing isn't everything. Pretty sure that there is a tank skill that grants minor maim, and you'll probably only need minor maim in a boss fight. Outhealing trash mobs shouldn't be a problem for any healer. The totem is indeed a great skill and it provides minor protection, but it's unlikely you and your teammates will really need it. If they will, you can use circle of protection from the fighter's guild skilline which costs stamina, so it will basically just help with your sustain. Yeah you can always use sets that restore resources for your teammates but it is so much better to have that in your kit already and then running these sets on top of it or running something else.0 -
Merciful17✭✭✭When your entire playstyle crutches on one thing to survive, it means its time to rethink your build. That's the hard truth about it, regardless of the state a class is in.
Already done. I no longer use a harmony build because it will get nerfed in the next update. And like I've already said multiple times, every other class will perform better than necromancer when it comes to dealing damage.
Besides, saying that I have to rethink my build because I use "crutch" with harmony isn't right. I'm sure you've heard of the new aoe changes they are trying out soon in cyro. I'm also sure you've seen a bunch of people saying that templar will be useless if they go live, does that mean that templars have to rethink their builds because they "crutch" with jabs? You can literally call any good ability, trait, set etc a crutch as long as it's good. Sorcs crutch with streak and shields, templars crutch with jabs, nightblades crutch with cloak, etc. Because let's be honest, those classes wouldn't be nearly as good as they are now because of these skills.1 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Merciful17 wrote: »When your entire playstyle crutches on one thing to survive, it means its time to rethink your build. That's the hard truth about it, regardless of the state a class is in.
Already done. I no longer use a harmony build because it will get nerfed in the next update. And like I've already said multiple times, every other class will perform better than necromancer when it comes to dealing damage.
Besides, saying that I have to rethink my build because I use "crutch" with harmony isn't right. I'm sure you've heard of the new aoe changes they are trying out soon in cyro. I'm also sure you've seen a bunch of people saying that templar will be useless if they go live, does that mean that templars have to rethink their builds because they "crutch" with jabs? You can literally call any good ability, trait, set etc a crutch as long as it's good. Sorcs crutch with streak and shields, templars crutch with jabs, nightblades crutch with cloak, etc. Because let's be honest, those classes wouldn't be nearly as good as they are now because of these skills.
Only difference is that's an actual skill being directly nerfed, and here is a change to a trait that happens to affect your build. False equivalence.
BUT if we do go down that route, and let's say you want to argue that, I would say "yes" IF templar:
(1) hadn't gotten nothing but nerfs the past patches
(2) ritual of retribution on PTS wasn't also changed
(3) the classes' only strengths "purge and jabs" wouldn't get limited, and
(4) nearly every slotted skill on a templar has a range and check on it that will be affected by 3 seconds t
Then I would say the same thing. Unfortunately, not the same situation. It's funny because I don't care to cheerlead for any class getting a buff or nerf, but every single class on live can stand their ground better than a templar can. Got better defense or escape mechanics and/or major protection -- all things stripped from templar over the past 3 years.
That you, and others, don't want to sacrifice your tankiness to do damage like everyone else and then complain over a trait change is exactly why I call it a crutch and will continue to do so, no matter who gets testy or wants to say otherwise. I'll call it what it is, and that's that. You should be thankful ZOS didn't take the other options they probably had on the table for nerfs0 -
Sneakers✭✭✭When your entire playstyle crutches on one thing to survive, it means its time to rethink your build. That's the hard truth about it, regardless of the state a class is in.
Right give us TWO (2) viable alternatives as magcro for a burst combo other then:
Elemental drain + bones + spammy + colosus + graveyard + spammy?
Remove graveyard damage and the whole rotation falls, what else can make up for the loss of burst damage in the entire necro kit? Maybe magcros can shocking siphon players to death
?
Ah doesn't matter anyway I know you cant rebuttal with anything, [Snip].
Next patch we will all run around with 3x proc sets anyway and spam lightning heavy attacks with escapist poison; so who the f cares anyway about this knee jerk over done irrational nerf.
If 25K novas was a problem you lower its synergy base damage so it hits for ~7-12k wich is around regular DK leap damage.
[Edited for bait]Edited by ZOS_Volpe on July 28, 2020 7:57PM1 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭When your entire playstyle crutches on one thing to survive, it means its time to rethink your build. That's the hard truth about it, regardless of the state a class is in.
Right give us TWO (2) viable alternatives as magcro for a burst combo other then:
Elemental drain + bones + spammy + colosus + graveyard + spammy?
Remove graveyard damage and the whole rotation falls, what else can make up for the loss of burst damage in the entire necro kit? Maybe magcros can shocking siphon players to death?
Ah doesn't matter anyway I know you cant rebuttal with anything, [Snip].
Next patch we will all run around with 3x proc sets anyway and spam lightning heavy attacks with escapist poison; so who the f cares anyway about this knee jerk over done irrational nerf.
If 25K novas was a problem you lower its synergy base damage so it hits for ~7-12k wich is around regular DK leap damage.
[Edited for bait]
First that rotation you mentioned, while popular, is not even the most efficient way to do damage on a magcro. This is why I said in many threads before they even announced this nerf that many magcros have no idea how to actually play the class. That's a great rotation to take on people who have no clue about it the first time, but completely loses effectiveness when you aren't zerging and/or they do know what to expect. I can understand why most of these magcros think it wasn't OP and was fine; it's because they simply lacked skill and knowledge of the class outside of zerging in the first place.
Second, let's get something straight here, there is nowhere in the game on live or PTS where a damage decrease isn't negated by simply getting either defile, vulnerability, or both. And if you really wanted to, you have the option to get both in your build as a magcro. That you don't is your decision. Also, plenty of proc sets exist that can easily tilt the balance in your favor, but even outside of that there's also poisons.
Third, if you think 3x proc sets and heavy attack on a magcro is what's going to be meta next patch, then you only will be nerfing yourself and food for anyone else doing the same thing, except smart enough to slot defile.
Fourth, saying an ult should get nerfed so you can keep using a skill that hits people on live for 15-25K far more often than that ult can, is just [snip]
[snip]
[edited for baiting]
Edited by ZOS_Lunar on July 29, 2020 2:11PM0 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Merciful17 wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »
You clearly need to move on to another class, the Magcro is not for you/not your play style, and that's ok, different strokes and all.My main character is the magicka necromancer and I regret it. If I knew how awful the magicka necromancer is, I would NEVER play it. Now I am thinking about changing my main character and forgetting about necromancers forever.
I'll keep mine, as I can put out damage/heals and survive as well as/better than any of my other mag toons. ☠☠☠
Magcro is awesome for soloing, but if you play PvP or do trials and vet dungeons you'll quickly notice how much better every single class is. The only reason to play Magcro in a trial or dungeon is because of their ultimate.
I was actually thinking of dusting off my magcro and healing dungeons with her. The trigger for the idea is that magcros will be able to proc Elemental Catalyst on an AoE more easily than other classes (any magicka class can of course proc it single-target w/ Force Shock). The debuff from the burst heal may not matter much. AoE Breach/Fracture is a good thing. So basically, Magcro looks like a strong class for support in trash fights. Indeed, sustain could even be decent when enemies are dying all over the place, not that sustain should matter in most trash scenarios.
The problem, of course, is that magcro sustain is bad in boss fights. And those of us who don't like to chug expensive pots also regret the lack of Major Sorcery or Major Prophecy.
Magcros make good off-supports, but in trials their heals just aren't good enough. Mainly because they need a corpse on the ground all the time to be able to put out decent healing. I remember playing nCR and both of our healers were necromancers. Basically half the team was dead all the time lol. Their ultimates are really good but other than that templar and warden beat them in every single way.
I disagree, my necro heals vet trials just fine, maybe not on par with my templar through raw healing, but buffs and debuffs certainly. I think you just had bad healers and they'd be as bad on any class. As necromancer, you still have access to the same restoration abilities and orbs, blood fountain etc, but the class healing kit is pretty awesome too. Yes corpses are required, but those should be provided by your dps (and really only needed for Enduring and Tether)--you can buff them and keep them standing with all non-class heals and common set buffs and procs, and totem is possibly one of the best abilities I have access to, area CC and protection, perfect. Running the mender and popping summoners armour, or even empowering grasp also increase my healing output, with both the armour and mender giving me corpses to consume. Its different to warden or templar, certainly, but it's fun and by no means a lesser healer than either.
In terms of healing output necromancer is very strong. But abilities like thether and enduring still require a corpse. Templars also have way better passives for healers. They also have a strong passive that grants them and their group minor sorcery. Besides, running orbs and that spear ability is better than running only orbs.
Again, lack of corpses is not a problem I've encountered when healing (you can make them easily enough with an early recast of mender for example); and really the group should be killing stuff faster than I can consume them anyway. My necro is just as good, if not better in some situations than my templar. Templar is and always will be the healer archetype, but they are far from the best in every given scenario, and despite a slightly different approach, necromancer has very few shortfalls. Like i say, I play both, and I actually prefer my necromancer over my templar in vCR and most trials where there is a high mob count on boss encounters. Regardless of the archetype passives on templar, necromancer has sufficient utility to be a healer on par. I don't think you're looking at the whole picture, especially with your heavy focus on corpse count.Merciful17 wrote: »It really depends on which trial you do. If there is a lot of trash mobs you will generally be running blockade or unstable wall and after putting it down you'll go on your backbar and spam heals. In CR I've found myself spamming heals only lol. I would 100% recommend to run elemental drain instead of siphon spirit because of the huge spell resistance debuff it provides. Usually you'll have 2 supports in trials and if that's the case you could run siphon spirit I guess. But you should really consider getting combat prayer. It is a healer's best spammable since it heals, provides minor armor and spell resistance AND it gives you and your teammates minor beserk which is huge. Honestly in most dungeons you can run a little bit of whatever. I always queue up as a fake healer even for vet dungeons lol. If my teammates are dying I can just slot a little more heals like necros burst heal spammable, spirit mender and thether. It will get me through most content. Can't speak for vet dlc dungeons tho.
On combat prayer, you know it has an 8 second duration, right (with a 3240 cost!)? No need to spam, and spam healing anyway? Really? You lay down your hots and buffs, debuffs, some lightning blockade, then top off reactively with regen or fill-in some dps where necessary, no need to spam anything if you know what you're doing--as soon as your team turns you into a spam healer, it's time to gtfo...
The fact that you need corpses is still a downside compared to templar tho.You don't lead with tether or enduring though, those are quite literally the last heals you put out.
I can do this:
Summoner's Armor > Mender > blockade of storms > totem > combat prayer > healing springs > orbs > regen > Mender
and voila, I have a corpse. Every 20s I have 2 corpses; if the dps in my group is good enough, I have a pile of corpses...
Necromancer also doesn't have any passives or abilities that grant your teammates resources. Meanwhile warden's spam heal grants minor stam recovery and mag recovery and templars have shards which grants your teammates resources back. The only two things necromancer has that makes them unique is a revive ultimate and necro smash.passively maim, protection, vulnerability on demand
Revive is great but won't be used in experienced groups where people try to go for achivements where you're not allowed to die. Necro smash is awesome because of the debuff but a dps necromancer has more use of it because it will deal more damage.probably better to be running Aggressive Horn/Light's Champion and barrier anyway (like every other healer on any class)
Anyways, necromancers are by no means bad healers, but almost always warden and templar will be more useful.
We're going to have to agree to disagree on that point. Necromancer has other utility that more than makes up for this and with sets like hollowfang and symphony of blades, your resource argument is a moot point anyway. Regardless, your initial stance (which you have changed since we started our exchange) was that Necromancer could not keep up with templars or wardens on heals; in fact, you posited that their ability to output enough heals was demonstrable in how you had an nCR group die due to lack of healing. My counterpoint there was that you simply had encountered a bad set of healers and my reasoning behind that--seeing as you've now shifted your focus onto resource recovery implies you agree on that? I said in an earlier post that the method of healing on necromancer is different to warden and templar, there is a greater focus on debuffing, i.e. reducing incoming damage and increasing damage dealt along with continuous healing and sustain aid... I think that's where you're possibly losing sight of the bigger picture. One class may have better ability at retaining resource so damage can be dealt out continuously, whereas another class increases damage dealt and decreases incoming damage done such that resource drain is lower.
Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree.FrancisCrawford wrote: »Wait -- Elemental Drain can be active on multiple enemies at once? I need to test that again.
Yep, you can chuck on as many targets as you like at 0 cost--it's one of my biggest annoyances seeing healers not use it. It's a no brainer
Siphon Spirit can also affect multiple targets (and has no cost). I prefer ele drain bacause I can back bar it with my destro and have a free front bar slot for other healing skills off the resto line (and for breach in cases I alluded to earlier), but I do have it unlocked and levelled just in case some raid leader wants it.
Usually templar healers use the nova ult, which inflicts major maim and gives a synergy that deals a lot of damage. I guess what you could say is that Necromancers make good healers but bad supports compared to warden and templar, if you catch my meaning. Their heals are at least top 3, but healing isn't everything. Pretty sure that there is a tank skill that grants minor maim, and you'll probably only need minor maim in a boss fight. Outhealing trash mobs shouldn't be a problem for any healer. The totem is indeed a great skill and it provides minor protection, but it's unlikely you and your teammates will really need it. If they will, you can use circle of protection from the fighter's guild skilline which costs stamina, so it will basically just help with your sustain. Yeah you can always use sets that restore resources for your teammates but it is so much better to have that in your kit already and then running these sets on top of it or running something else.
And this concludes our conversation I think. There's enough information in this post, and from your meandering opinion (starting at "necro is good support but doesn't have enough healing power" and ending with "necros do decent healing but don't have enough support", and your views on 'spammable' heals) for me to know there is no point to progress it.
Edited by mairwen85 on July 28, 2020 11:44PM0 -
Sneakers✭✭✭When your entire playstyle crutches on one thing to survive, it means its time to rethink your build. That's the hard truth about it, regardless of the state a class is in.
Right give us TWO (2) viable alternatives as magcro for a burst combo other then:
Elemental drain + bones + spammy + colosus + graveyard + spammy?
Remove graveyard damage and the whole rotation falls, what else can make up for the loss of burst damage in the entire necro kit? Maybe magcros can shocking siphon players to death?
Ah doesn't matter anyway I know you cant rebuttal with anything, [Snip].
Next patch we will all run around with 3x proc sets anyway and spam lightning heavy attacks with escapist poison; so who the f cares anyway about this knee jerk over done irrational nerf.
If 25K novas was a problem you lower its synergy base damage so it hits for ~7-12k wich is around regular DK leap damage.
[Edited for bait]
First that rotation you mentioned, while popular, is not even the most efficient way to do damage on a magcro. This is why I said in many threads before they even announced this nerf that many magcros have no idea how to actually play the class. That's a great rotation to take on people who have no clue about it the first time, but completely loses effectiveness when you aren't zerging and/or they do know what to expect. I can understand why most of these magcros think it wasn't OP and was fine; it's because they simply lacked skill and knowledge of the class outside of zerging in the first place.
Second, let's get something straight here, there is nowhere in the game on live or PTS where a damage decrease isn't negated by simply getting either defile, vulnerability, or both. And if you really wanted to, you have the option to get both in your build as a magcro. That you don't is your decision. Also, plenty of proc sets exist that can easily tilt the balance in your favor, but even outside of that there's also poisons.
Third, if you think 3x proc sets and heavy attack on a magcro is what's going to be meta next patch, then you only will be nerfing yourself and food for anyone else doing the same thing, except smart enough to slot defile.
Fourth, saying an ult should get nerfed so you can keep using a skill that hits people on live for 15-25K far more often than that ult can, is just [snip]
[snip]
[snip]
Why do you think I mention lightning staff huh? [snip] lightning status effect with a befoul glyph - OH SNAP it is = minor defile + minor vulnerability.
Mayor vulnerability you get from 1x "Lucky" tick of colosus (as soon as that colosus animaiton is seen people roll dodge the other 2 hits) that is why you need graveyard to be effective, it is magcros big damage burst and execute all in one skill.
Nova can hit for 25k on high spell dmg templars, that is a problem. Graveyard litterally cannot hit for that amount unless 0 resists and no mitigation.
45k magicka 3300-4200 (4.2k with balorgh and masters inferno) spell damage magcro sits around 15-17k graveyard bomb damage.
Consider then 17k*105% = 17000*2.05 = 34850 effective TT damage.
Add to that battlespirit that cuts damage in half.
Add to that ~80% mitigation on "glassy" classes, (as reference my tanky stamnecro sits at 92% spell mitigation to frost dmg)
Minus major vulnerability (need to know exact mitigation to calculate increased damage)
Minus minor vulnerability (need to know exact mitigation to calculate increased damage)
Stam DKs tooltip leap at 33k, leap costs 75 ulti, you can get 75 ulti in less then 20 seconds, which is cooldown on graveyard. If graveyard hits for 15k after mitigation on a 35k TT then leap also hits for ~15k on a 33k TT.
Compare this with templars nova who has ~35+% higher base damage value on TT then graveyard. Nova is a problem not graveyard, which magcro rely on to even kill anything.
[snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Lunar on July 29, 2020 2:11PM2 -
Merciful17✭✭✭Merciful17 wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »
You clearly need to move on to another class, the Magcro is not for you/not your play style, and that's ok, different strokes and all.My main character is the magicka necromancer and I regret it. If I knew how awful the magicka necromancer is, I would NEVER play it. Now I am thinking about changing my main character and forgetting about necromancers forever.
I'll keep mine, as I can put out damage/heals and survive as well as/better than any of my other mag toons. ☠☠☠
Magcro is awesome for soloing, but if you play PvP or do trials and vet dungeons you'll quickly notice how much better every single class is. The only reason to play Magcro in a trial or dungeon is because of their ultimate.
I was actually thinking of dusting off my magcro and healing dungeons with her. The trigger for the idea is that magcros will be able to proc Elemental Catalyst on an AoE more easily than other classes (any magicka class can of course proc it single-target w/ Force Shock). The debuff from the burst heal may not matter much. AoE Breach/Fracture is a good thing. So basically, Magcro looks like a strong class for support in trash fights. Indeed, sustain could even be decent when enemies are dying all over the place, not that sustain should matter in most trash scenarios.
The problem, of course, is that magcro sustain is bad in boss fights. And those of us who don't like to chug expensive pots also regret the lack of Major Sorcery or Major Prophecy.
Magcros make good off-supports, but in trials their heals just aren't good enough. Mainly because they need a corpse on the ground all the time to be able to put out decent healing. I remember playing nCR and both of our healers were necromancers. Basically half the team was dead all the time lol. Their ultimates are really good but other than that templar and warden beat them in every single way.
I disagree, my necro heals vet trials just fine, maybe not on par with my templar through raw healing, but buffs and debuffs certainly. I think you just had bad healers and they'd be as bad on any class. As necromancer, you still have access to the same restoration abilities and orbs, blood fountain etc, but the class healing kit is pretty awesome too. Yes corpses are required, but those should be provided by your dps (and really only needed for Enduring and Tether)--you can buff them and keep them standing with all non-class heals and common set buffs and procs, and totem is possibly one of the best abilities I have access to, area CC and protection, perfect. Running the mender and popping summoners armour, or even empowering grasp also increase my healing output, with both the armour and mender giving me corpses to consume. Its different to warden or templar, certainly, but it's fun and by no means a lesser healer than either.
In terms of healing output necromancer is very strong. But abilities like thether and enduring still require a corpse. Templars also have way better passives for healers. They also have a strong passive that grants them and their group minor sorcery. Besides, running orbs and that spear ability is better than running only orbs.
Again, lack of corpses is not a problem I've encountered when healing (you can make them easily enough with an early recast of mender for example); and really the group should be killing stuff faster than I can consume them anyway. My necro is just as good, if not better in some situations than my templar. Templar is and always will be the healer archetype, but they are far from the best in every given scenario, and despite a slightly different approach, necromancer has very few shortfalls. Like i say, I play both, and I actually prefer my necromancer over my templar in vCR and most trials where there is a high mob count on boss encounters. Regardless of the archetype passives on templar, necromancer has sufficient utility to be a healer on par. I don't think you're looking at the whole picture, especially with your heavy focus on corpse count.Merciful17 wrote: »It really depends on which trial you do. If there is a lot of trash mobs you will generally be running blockade or unstable wall and after putting it down you'll go on your backbar and spam heals. In CR I've found myself spamming heals only lol. I would 100% recommend to run elemental drain instead of siphon spirit because of the huge spell resistance debuff it provides. Usually you'll have 2 supports in trials and if that's the case you could run siphon spirit I guess. But you should really consider getting combat prayer. It is a healer's best spammable since it heals, provides minor armor and spell resistance AND it gives you and your teammates minor beserk which is huge. Honestly in most dungeons you can run a little bit of whatever. I always queue up as a fake healer even for vet dungeons lol. If my teammates are dying I can just slot a little more heals like necros burst heal spammable, spirit mender and thether. It will get me through most content. Can't speak for vet dlc dungeons tho.
On combat prayer, you know it has an 8 second duration, right (with a 3240 cost!)? No need to spam, and spam healing anyway? Really? You lay down your hots and buffs, debuffs, some lightning blockade, then top off reactively with regen or fill-in some dps where necessary, no need to spam anything if you know what you're doing--as soon as your team turns you into a spam healer, it's time to gtfo...
The fact that you need corpses is still a downside compared to templar tho.You don't lead with tether or enduring though, those are quite literally the last heals you put out.
I can do this:
Summoner's Armor > Mender > blockade of storms > totem > combat prayer > healing springs > orbs > regen > Mender
and voila, I have a corpse. Every 20s I have 2 corpses; if the dps in my group is good enough, I have a pile of corpses...
Necromancer also doesn't have any passives or abilities that grant your teammates resources. Meanwhile warden's spam heal grants minor stam recovery and mag recovery and templars have shards which grants your teammates resources back. The only two things necromancer has that makes them unique is a revive ultimate and necro smash.passively maim, protection, vulnerability on demand
Revive is great but won't be used in experienced groups where people try to go for achivements where you're not allowed to die. Necro smash is awesome because of the debuff but a dps necromancer has more use of it because it will deal more damage.probably better to be running Aggressive Horn/Light's Champion and barrier anyway (like every other healer on any class)
Anyways, necromancers are by no means bad healers, but almost always warden and templar will be more useful.
We're going to have to agree to disagree on that point. Necromancer has other utility that more than makes up for this and with sets like hollowfang and symphony of blades, your resource argument is a moot point anyway. Regardless, your initial stance (which you have changed since we started our exchange) was that Necromancer could not keep up with templars or wardens on heals; in fact, you posited that their ability to output enough heals was demonstrable in how you had an nCR group die due to lack of healing. My counterpoint there was that you simply had encountered a bad set of healers and my reasoning behind that--seeing as you've now shifted your focus onto resource recovery implies you agree on that? I said in an earlier post that the method of healing on necromancer is different to warden and templar, there is a greater focus on debuffing, i.e. reducing incoming damage and increasing damage dealt along with continuous healing and sustain aid... I think that's where you're possibly losing sight of the bigger picture. One class may have better ability at retaining resource so damage can be dealt out continuously, whereas another class increases damage dealt and decreases incoming damage done such that resource drain is lower.
Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree.FrancisCrawford wrote: »Wait -- Elemental Drain can be active on multiple enemies at once? I need to test that again.
Yep, you can chuck on as many targets as you like at 0 cost--it's one of my biggest annoyances seeing healers not use it. It's a no brainer
Siphon Spirit can also affect multiple targets (and has no cost). I prefer ele drain bacause I can back bar it with my destro and have a free front bar slot for other healing skills off the resto line (and for breach in cases I alluded to earlier), but I do have it unlocked and levelled just in case some raid leader wants it.
Usually templar healers use the nova ult, which inflicts major maim and gives a synergy that deals a lot of damage. I guess what you could say is that Necromancers make good healers but bad supports compared to warden and templar, if you catch my meaning. Their heals are at least top 3, but healing isn't everything. Pretty sure that there is a tank skill that grants minor maim, and you'll probably only need minor maim in a boss fight. Outhealing trash mobs shouldn't be a problem for any healer. The totem is indeed a great skill and it provides minor protection, but it's unlikely you and your teammates will really need it. If they will, you can use circle of protection from the fighter's guild skilline which costs stamina, so it will basically just help with your sustain. Yeah you can always use sets that restore resources for your teammates but it is so much better to have that in your kit already and then running these sets on top of it or running something else.
And this concludes our conversation I think. There's enough information in this post, and from your meandering opinion (starting at "necro is good support but doesn't have enough healing power" and ending with "necros do decent healing but don't have enough support", and your views on 'spammable' heals) for me to know there is no point to progress it.
Are you sure you're not in denial because people prefer warden or templar as healers? It seems like you're just out of counter-arguements.0 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Merciful17 wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »
You clearly need to move on to another class, the Magcro is not for you/not your play style, and that's ok, different strokes and all.My main character is the magicka necromancer and I regret it. If I knew how awful the magicka necromancer is, I would NEVER play it. Now I am thinking about changing my main character and forgetting about necromancers forever.
I'll keep mine, as I can put out damage/heals and survive as well as/better than any of my other mag toons. ☠☠☠
Magcro is awesome for soloing, but if you play PvP or do trials and vet dungeons you'll quickly notice how much better every single class is. The only reason to play Magcro in a trial or dungeon is because of their ultimate.
I was actually thinking of dusting off my magcro and healing dungeons with her. The trigger for the idea is that magcros will be able to proc Elemental Catalyst on an AoE more easily than other classes (any magicka class can of course proc it single-target w/ Force Shock). The debuff from the burst heal may not matter much. AoE Breach/Fracture is a good thing. So basically, Magcro looks like a strong class for support in trash fights. Indeed, sustain could even be decent when enemies are dying all over the place, not that sustain should matter in most trash scenarios.
The problem, of course, is that magcro sustain is bad in boss fights. And those of us who don't like to chug expensive pots also regret the lack of Major Sorcery or Major Prophecy.
Magcros make good off-supports, but in trials their heals just aren't good enough. Mainly because they need a corpse on the ground all the time to be able to put out decent healing. I remember playing nCR and both of our healers were necromancers. Basically half the team was dead all the time lol. Their ultimates are really good but other than that templar and warden beat them in every single way.
I disagree, my necro heals vet trials just fine, maybe not on par with my templar through raw healing, but buffs and debuffs certainly. I think you just had bad healers and they'd be as bad on any class. As necromancer, you still have access to the same restoration abilities and orbs, blood fountain etc, but the class healing kit is pretty awesome too. Yes corpses are required, but those should be provided by your dps (and really only needed for Enduring and Tether)--you can buff them and keep them standing with all non-class heals and common set buffs and procs, and totem is possibly one of the best abilities I have access to, area CC and protection, perfect. Running the mender and popping summoners armour, or even empowering grasp also increase my healing output, with both the armour and mender giving me corpses to consume. Its different to warden or templar, certainly, but it's fun and by no means a lesser healer than either.
In terms of healing output necromancer is very strong. But abilities like thether and enduring still require a corpse. Templars also have way better passives for healers. They also have a strong passive that grants them and their group minor sorcery. Besides, running orbs and that spear ability is better than running only orbs.
Again, lack of corpses is not a problem I've encountered when healing (you can make them easily enough with an early recast of mender for example); and really the group should be killing stuff faster than I can consume them anyway. My necro is just as good, if not better in some situations than my templar. Templar is and always will be the healer archetype, but they are far from the best in every given scenario, and despite a slightly different approach, necromancer has very few shortfalls. Like i say, I play both, and I actually prefer my necromancer over my templar in vCR and most trials where there is a high mob count on boss encounters. Regardless of the archetype passives on templar, necromancer has sufficient utility to be a healer on par. I don't think you're looking at the whole picture, especially with your heavy focus on corpse count.Merciful17 wrote: »It really depends on which trial you do. If there is a lot of trash mobs you will generally be running blockade or unstable wall and after putting it down you'll go on your backbar and spam heals. In CR I've found myself spamming heals only lol. I would 100% recommend to run elemental drain instead of siphon spirit because of the huge spell resistance debuff it provides. Usually you'll have 2 supports in trials and if that's the case you could run siphon spirit I guess. But you should really consider getting combat prayer. It is a healer's best spammable since it heals, provides minor armor and spell resistance AND it gives you and your teammates minor beserk which is huge. Honestly in most dungeons you can run a little bit of whatever. I always queue up as a fake healer even for vet dungeons lol. If my teammates are dying I can just slot a little more heals like necros burst heal spammable, spirit mender and thether. It will get me through most content. Can't speak for vet dlc dungeons tho.
On combat prayer, you know it has an 8 second duration, right (with a 3240 cost!)? No need to spam, and spam healing anyway? Really? You lay down your hots and buffs, debuffs, some lightning blockade, then top off reactively with regen or fill-in some dps where necessary, no need to spam anything if you know what you're doing--as soon as your team turns you into a spam healer, it's time to gtfo...
The fact that you need corpses is still a downside compared to templar tho.You don't lead with tether or enduring though, those are quite literally the last heals you put out.
I can do this:
Summoner's Armor > Mender > blockade of storms > totem > combat prayer > healing springs > orbs > regen > Mender
and voila, I have a corpse. Every 20s I have 2 corpses; if the dps in my group is good enough, I have a pile of corpses...
Necromancer also doesn't have any passives or abilities that grant your teammates resources. Meanwhile warden's spam heal grants minor stam recovery and mag recovery and templars have shards which grants your teammates resources back. The only two things necromancer has that makes them unique is a revive ultimate and necro smash.passively maim, protection, vulnerability on demand
Revive is great but won't be used in experienced groups where people try to go for achivements where you're not allowed to die. Necro smash is awesome because of the debuff but a dps necromancer has more use of it because it will deal more damage.probably better to be running Aggressive Horn/Light's Champion and barrier anyway (like every other healer on any class)
Anyways, necromancers are by no means bad healers, but almost always warden and templar will be more useful.
We're going to have to agree to disagree on that point. Necromancer has other utility that more than makes up for this and with sets like hollowfang and symphony of blades, your resource argument is a moot point anyway. Regardless, your initial stance (which you have changed since we started our exchange) was that Necromancer could not keep up with templars or wardens on heals; in fact, you posited that their ability to output enough heals was demonstrable in how you had an nCR group die due to lack of healing. My counterpoint there was that you simply had encountered a bad set of healers and my reasoning behind that--seeing as you've now shifted your focus onto resource recovery implies you agree on that? I said in an earlier post that the method of healing on necromancer is different to warden and templar, there is a greater focus on debuffing, i.e. reducing incoming damage and increasing damage dealt along with continuous healing and sustain aid... I think that's where you're possibly losing sight of the bigger picture. One class may have better ability at retaining resource so damage can be dealt out continuously, whereas another class increases damage dealt and decreases incoming damage done such that resource drain is lower.
Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree.FrancisCrawford wrote: »Wait -- Elemental Drain can be active on multiple enemies at once? I need to test that again.
Yep, you can chuck on as many targets as you like at 0 cost--it's one of my biggest annoyances seeing healers not use it. It's a no brainer
Siphon Spirit can also affect multiple targets (and has no cost). I prefer ele drain bacause I can back bar it with my destro and have a free front bar slot for other healing skills off the resto line (and for breach in cases I alluded to earlier), but I do have it unlocked and levelled just in case some raid leader wants it.
Usually templar healers use the nova ult, which inflicts major maim and gives a synergy that deals a lot of damage. I guess what you could say is that Necromancers make good healers but bad supports compared to warden and templar, if you catch my meaning. Their heals are at least top 3, but healing isn't everything. Pretty sure that there is a tank skill that grants minor maim, and you'll probably only need minor maim in a boss fight. Outhealing trash mobs shouldn't be a problem for any healer. The totem is indeed a great skill and it provides minor protection, but it's unlikely you and your teammates will really need it. If they will, you can use circle of protection from the fighter's guild skilline which costs stamina, so it will basically just help with your sustain. Yeah you can always use sets that restore resources for your teammates but it is so much better to have that in your kit already and then running these sets on top of it or running something else.Orbs vs Shards -- every class has access to orbs (and every healer frankly should be using them), 1 orb feeds 11 people, shards are 1:1
luminous shards cost: 4320 | restores 5940 | also does damage
orbs cost: 3780 | restores 3960 | also does healing
So will you cast shards 11 times or pop 1 orb? Or forgo a spot for something else and double dip by slotting both?
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/bone-totem
vs
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/circle-of-protection
think about it...
And this concludes our conversation I think. There's enough information in this post, and from your meandering opinion (starting at "necro is good support but doesn't have enough healing power" and ending with "necros do decent healing but don't have enough support", and your views on 'spammable' heals) for me to know there is no point to progress it.Your arguments thus far have centred around non-issues and minor points that can easily be made up for in build options.
Are you sure you're not in denial because people prefer warden or templar as healers? It seems like you're just out of counter-arguements.Merciful17 wrote: »Magcros make good off-supports, but in trials their heals just aren't good enough.
🤔Merciful17 wrote: »Necromancers make good healers but bad supports I'm not going to be baited on something you have a constantly changing stance on; you cant even agree with yourself and have given some interesting contradictions from where we started to where we ended. There is no counter argument because there is nothing left to say in response that wouldn't be wasting my breath. As I said, I play both templar and necromancer, and I heal dungeons and trials with both--either healer in any content has never been an issue and my raid group prefers necromancer or templar depending on content and group composition, many times selecting my necro over other choices such as warden. There has yet to be a case that excludes either of my healers from any content. Your arguments and contributions to the conversation have clearly indicated a lack of (or vastly different) experience on the subject of healing at end game through how you describe skills, and the requirements, to the shift in your opinion wrt healing output and support capability, to commonly slotted skills and alternatives, common ultimates, and relevant buffs. I think we've both said enough on the subject to define the positions here, and 'agreeing to disagree' is probably the best we can do based on whatever experience we are drawing from, but "people prefer warden or templar as healers" is an untrue statement. You can't state an assumption authoritatively as fact when in practice esologs indicates an equal presence in veteran trials and dungeons, and many groups scoring high regardless of which class heals. Templar is the archetypal healer, as such they have the best in-class toolkit for that role; at no point am I disputing that (in fact I said the same a few times I believe), but all that means is that it is easier for players to heal with the class and healing is a more accessible role to new players via doing so--but that does not exclude other options outright or immediately mean those options are less viable or sub-optimal choices, and player skill and knowledge, and group composition can make any class equally viable in the role, both warden and necromancer are more directional and positionally driven than templar, for example. Given that end-game healing has many dimensions there are benefits and pitfalls to either option, but speccing for a role, you optimise to and work around those. Similar parallels can be drawn with tanking, naturally DK is the archetypal tank, but other classes do the job just as well. But to the subject of the thread at hand, I feel we're veering off course and away from the context of the opening post.
[ atrocious spelling and posting when I should be working ]
Edited by mairwen85 on July 29, 2020 2:27PM0 -
Atherakhia✭✭✭✭Has anyone tested Grave Grasp? That seems especially relevant given the PTS currently.
Does anyone even use the skill on live? I'll admit, I never even morphed the skill until these notes came out and have only played with it a little. That said, the only way this skill is even remotely useful on live right now is because of the enormous area the AE covers and the fact that it immobilizes everyone. Still no where near as useful as bombard mind you, and at least bombard does damage.
I really don't see how the changes to Grave Grasp are a buff in any regard. Certainly a redesign, but there is no way a person is ever going to be hit by the second or third circle given how slow it attacks. So when all is said and done, only the first circle is of any real relevance in my opinion. That said, if they'd simply reverse the pattern so the first circle stunned, the second circle immobilized, and the third circle snared it would at least be somewhat useful, but probably still wouldn't be used.
IMO, I think they should reconsider the morphs on this skill. One morph should make the skill deal a stacking DOT and the other morph should apply a stacking HOT. Both could cap at 3 stacks so even if you spammed this skill, there would be a relative cap to the effectiveness of each. But it would be nice if there was some way to reward the player for hitting someone with multiple circles. Plus, at least with this being a damage/heal ability, you'd maybe see people consider using it.
A further improvement could be to shuffle the circles with the morphs. For example, the DPS morph would Immobilize on the first circle, the second circle would stun, and the third circle would deal a fairly substantial amount of damage.
Other than that, Ill contribute to the ongoing conversation by saying Necros suck, skills are clunky, corpses spawn inconsisently, blah blah blah.
5 -
Merciful17✭✭✭Atherakhia wrote: »Has anyone tested Grave Grasp? That seems especially relevant given the PTS currently.
Does anyone even use the skill on live? I'll admit, I never even morphed the skill until these notes came out and have only played with it a little. That said, the only way this skill is even remotely useful on live right now is because of the enormous area the AE covers and the fact that it immobilizes everyone. Still no where near as useful as bombard mind you, and at least bombard does damage.
I really don't see how the changes to Grave Grasp are a buff in any regard. Certainly a redesign, but there is no way a person is ever going to be hit by the second or third circle given how slow it attacks. So when all is said and done, only the first circle is of any real relevance in my opinion. That said, if they'd simply reverse the pattern so the first circle stunned, the second circle immobilized, and the third circle snared it would at least be somewhat useful, but probably still wouldn't be used.
IMO, I think they should reconsider the morphs on this skill. One morph should make the skill deal a stacking DOT and the other morph should apply a stacking HOT. Both could cap at 3 stacks so even if you spammed this skill, there would be a relative cap to the effectiveness of each. But it would be nice if there was some way to reward the player for hitting someone with multiple circles. Plus, at least with this being a damage/heal ability, you'd maybe see people consider using it.
A further improvement could be to shuffle the circles with the morphs. For example, the DPS morph would Immobilize on the first circle, the second circle would stun, and the third circle would deal a fairly substantial amount of damage.
Other than that, Ill contribute to the ongoing conversation by saying Necros suck, skills are clunky, corpses spawn inconsisently, blah blah blah.
Yeah if the circles were reversed it would be way more useful.1 -
Selot✭✭✭Absolutely agree with the author of this thread. Magcro is the most clunky class in the game atm. Our spammable is ranged, but it is so slow and can be easily dodged, whilst templar's puncturing sweep deals more damage, heals you, snared enemies, attacks groups of people, and isn't bugged.
Blastbones still doesn't work properly.
Mystic siphon needs several attempts to start working.
Skeletal arcanist deals small damage comparing to other classes' abilities. It needs major sorcery.
Render flesh is a good healing skill but why does it apply minor defile? What's the purpose? Templar's healing skill is the same but it doesn't apply negative effects.
Summoner's armor has stupid and weak bonus which decreases cost of summoning abilities by 15%.
Totem is a very interesting skill but it is slow and doesn't help in PvP in most cases.
Grave grasp is the most useless skill in the game atm. And now on PTS it became even worse. Every patch of skeletal hands used to stun enemy but now only 3 one does it. And it takes more than 1 second for 3rd patch to appear. This skill is a rubbish and NO ONE will use it. We do need a good working and useful CC skill..
Ghost is bugged as well as other necromancer skills are. Sometimes it doesn't heal at all.
Magicka necromancer is the worst class in the game right now. People still play it because of colossus and roleplay. If you remove colossus, be sure that 90% of the necromancers will delete their necro characters and never come back. My main character is the magicka necromancer and I regret it. If I knew how awful the magicka necromancer is, I would NEVER play it. Now I am thinking about changing my main character and forgetting about necromancers forever.
Magden seems real OPed with new proc sets comming. Also you don't need to do Psijic quests since warden has minor protection built in the class skills LLlllLllllooooaded.
Are you kidding me? This class lacks a good damage at all. No sets will help you to be good at PvP and PvE if you don't have decent offensive skills.0 -
Shantu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The only problem I find in the MagCro is that the Skull spammable hits like a wet noodle.0 -
Atherakhia✭✭✭✭Absolutely agree with the author of this thread. Magcro is the most clunky class in the game atm. Our spammable is ranged, but it is so slow and can be easily dodged, whilst templar's puncturing sweep deals more damage, heals you, snared enemies, attacks groups of people, and isn't bugged.
Blastbones still doesn't work properly.
Mystic siphon needs several attempts to start working.
Skeletal arcanist deals small damage comparing to other classes' abilities. It needs major sorcery.
Render flesh is a good healing skill but why does it apply minor defile? What's the purpose? Templar's healing skill is the same but it doesn't apply negative effects.
Summoner's armor has stupid and weak bonus which decreases cost of summoning abilities by 15%.
Totem is a very interesting skill but it is slow and doesn't help in PvP in most cases.
Grave grasp is the most useless skill in the game atm. And now on PTS it became even worse. Every patch of skeletal hands used to stun enemy but now only 3 one does it. And it takes more than 1 second for 3rd patch to appear. This skill is a rubbish and NO ONE will use it. We do need a good working and useful CC skill..
Ghost is bugged as well as other necromancer skills are. Sometimes it doesn't heal at all.
Magicka necromancer is the worst class in the game right now. People still play it because of colossus and roleplay. If you remove colossus, be sure that 90% of the necromancers will delete their necro characters and never come back. My main character is the magicka necromancer and I regret it. If I knew how awful the magicka necromancer is, I would NEVER play it. Now I am thinking about changing my main character and forgetting about necromancers forever.
Magden seems real OPed with new proc sets comming. Also you don't need to do Psijic quests since warden has minor protection built in the class skills LLlllLllllooooaded.
Are you kidding me? This class lacks a good damage at all. No sets will help you to be good at PvP and PvE if you don't have decent offensive skills.
People complain all the time that BB hits like an ultimate and Warden has scorch that hits for the same amount? Isn't fetcher like the strongest DOT in game other than the stam DK claw as well? And they have a spammable. So they apparently have everything a Necro has?Edited by Atherakhia on August 6, 2020 4:38PM0 -
Merciful17✭✭✭Finedaible wrote: »Self-synergy should have never been a thing in the first place.
Maybe not, but at least it was something unique and something that made magcro viable in PvP.0 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭When your entire playstyle crutches on one thing to survive, it means its time to rethink your build. That's the hard truth about it, regardless of the state a class is in.
The magcro is pretty bad even with harmony, but the aoe changes will finish it off assuming they end up going live.
Best just to swap to stamina if you want to pvp with the class.0 -
Selot✭✭✭Atherakhia wrote: »Absolutely agree with the author of this thread. Magcro is the most clunky class in the game atm. Our spammable is ranged, but it is so slow and can be easily dodged, whilst templar's puncturing sweep deals more damage, heals you, snared enemies, attacks groups of people, and isn't bugged.
Blastbones still doesn't work properly.
Mystic siphon needs several attempts to start working.
Skeletal arcanist deals small damage comparing to other classes' abilities. It needs major sorcery.
Render flesh is a good healing skill but why does it apply minor defile? What's the purpose? Templar's healing skill is the same but it doesn't apply negative effects.
Summoner's armor has stupid and weak bonus which decreases cost of summoning abilities by 15%.
Totem is a very interesting skill but it is slow and doesn't help in PvP in most cases.
Grave grasp is the most useless skill in the game atm. And now on PTS it became even worse. Every patch of skeletal hands used to stun enemy but now only 3 one does it. And it takes more than 1 second for 3rd patch to appear. This skill is a rubbish and NO ONE will use it. We do need a good working and useful CC skill..
Ghost is bugged as well as other necromancer skills are. Sometimes it doesn't heal at all.
Magicka necromancer is the worst class in the game right now. People still play it because of colossus and roleplay. If you remove colossus, be sure that 90% of the necromancers will delete their necro characters and never come back. My main character is the magicka necromancer and I regret it. If I knew how awful the magicka necromancer is, I would NEVER play it. Now I am thinking about changing my main character and forgetting about necromancers forever.
Magden seems real OPed with new proc sets comming. Also you don't need to do Psijic quests since warden has minor protection built in the class skills LLlllLllllooooaded.
Are you kidding me? This class lacks a good damage at all. No sets will help you to be good at PvP and PvE if you don't have decent offensive skills.
People complain all the time that BB hits like an ultimate and Warden has scorch that hits for the same amount? Isn't fetcher like the strongest DOT in game other than the stam DK claw as well? And they have a spammable. So they apparently have everything a Necro has?
BB and scorch have longer cast time so they deal bigger damage. That's fair. Plus BB is bugged and scorch is easy to dodge
>they hace a spammable
Nice joke! Warden's and necromancer's spammables are the worst ones atm. They are slow, weak and have no decent bonuses.
These two classes are underpowered as dd. And are awful in PvP. Especially magcro. Just try to play BG. A vast majority of players are sorcerers, then NBs and templars. No magicka necromancers at all.2 -
Atherakhia✭✭✭✭I wasn't trying to allege anything different. Only that Warden is not nearly as bad as claimed and I wouldn't put them in the same category as Necro. I think most would agree that Mag Necro is the worst mag in the game at the moment. That isn't to say they're worthless, but clearly no where near some of the other middling mag classes and certainly no where near sorc.0
