Proc Sets

zDan

Surely these sets like Unleashed Terror, Widowmaker, Caluurions, Icy Conjurer etc. cannot make it to live as they are? The tooltips are insane it'll be One Tamriel/Scalebreaker all over again! Almost 30k damage over 5 seconds on 2 different sets and that's without malacath too! This is insane ZOS...

zDan

Tried to add images of these from the uesp build editor but I'm too dumb lol

FirmamentOfStars

There are already several threads in the pts section about it and most people agree on it: proc sets can not stay as this, especially since many lost their proc chance and will deal consistent damage without investing or player input.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/537402/pvp-removal-of-skilled-gameplay#latest

Here people discuss proc sets impact on the current game and how they should be either adjusted in tooltips, affected by modifiers like malacath or treated by battle spirit.

Rakdos

I think a decent PVP player will put 30 points in health, and proc sets will be fine.

The really scary points is that they nerfed impen again, which is a huuuuuuuuuuuuge buff for Gankblade

Taleof2Cities

The UESP Build Editor has come a long ways in just a few days, @zDan, but the updates for PTS are not all complete.

For example, the Mundus Stone changes are not all programmed in yet.

It's a lot more helpful for feedback if you do a CMX parse on PTS (or similar testing) and post an image of that.

zDan

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

The UESP Build Editor has come a long ways in just a few days, @zDan, but the updates for PTS are not all complete.

For example, the Mundus Stone changes are not all programmed in yet.

It's a lot more helpful for feedback if you do a CMX parse on PTS (or similar testing) and post an image of that.

I mean, even without uesp editor, just looking at the tooltips from the patch notes it's not hard to see that they are all extremely way too strong, especially when you can pair them together

katorga

I've already got 3-4 builds ready for procs that will work with slight mods on Stam or Mag Sorc, Stam or Mag NB, StamCro,. With existing sets, no less. They'll get worse once I get the new sets. They will be monsters, particularly stam necro.

But I am really, really intersted in going full crit mode with NB.

dominguero96

Although I fear all the stam proc builds, I tested a proc set build in the pts with the Magcro and it seemed the only viable option.

Now that they got rid of the only hitting skill, apart from the ultimate, I don't see any place for Magcro in PVP apart from healer or an annoying tank.

PeterUnlustig

Stat sets and buff sets should always outperform proc sets, change my mind.

Kadoin

Don't forget, they buffed proc sets and then nerfed class skills as usual, so anyone that is using stats to fight will be at a huge disadvantage. You can't make up how terrible balance is on live now, but definitely how bad it will be if the PTS rolls over.

Now add one more thing to that equation: AoE undodgeable stun from Sellistrix every 5 sec. Then you really see the problem clearly

katorga

Kadoin wrote: »

Don't forget, they buffed proc sets and then nerfed class skills as usual, so anyone that is using stats to fight will be at a huge disadvantage. You can't make up how terrible balance is on live now, but definitely how bad it will be if the PTS rolls over.

Now add one more thing to that equation: AoE undodgeable stun from Sellistrix every 5 sec. Then you really see the problem clearly

Just curious, did Sheer Venom get a poison injection like mechanic AND the ability to proc on multiple targets? It sure looks like it to me.

Axx_Xa

Buff to Caluurion is like 360 damages nothing to cry about. The problem is the removal of crit proc requirement that now can be combined with malacath. So can we talk about malacath and not the insignificant changes (dam. tooltip) of proc set. Sorry about the bad english

fred4

zDan wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

The UESP Build Editor has come a long ways in just a few days, @zDan, but the updates for PTS are not all complete.

For example, the Mundus Stone changes are not all programmed in yet.

It's a lot more helpful for feedback if you do a CMX parse on PTS (or similar testing) and post an image of that.

I mean, even without uesp editor, just looking at the tooltips from the patch notes it's not hard to see that they are all extremely way too strong, especially when you can pair them together

As a long time Caluurion magblade, who plays in CP, no, just no. You can't make that assertion unless you name specific builds where the procs are "too strong" and until you clarify whether you're talking CP, no CP, or both, and whether you're talking with Malacath, or without. You should also really talk about builds that people actually play long term and that are, thus, verified to play well, not something you just threw together in the build editor. Nuance, please.

Talking about Caluurion in particular, I am not particularly keen on it losing it's crit activation feature, which will open it up to better cotrol by more classes and for combining with Malacath. On the other hand the set has two crit bonuses, wasted with that mythic. As a nightblade I won't be using Malacath. Also, on a magblade, the combination of Caluurion and Zaan, which may be something you're thinking of, puts you in melee range on a squishy build. The surprise / gank factor is good in open world, but it is by no means particularly strong nor particularly safe. Use Caluurion on a ranged build and you're dealing with a projectile that not only has an activation time, but that is also exceptionally slow to get to it's destination. It has it's benefits when you're already spamming an execute on someone. If not, then creating burst around that projectile sounds as tricky as anything to me. Furthermore you give up raw damage and healing for every proc set that you run.

zDan

fred4 wrote: »

zDan wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

The UESP Build Editor has come a long ways in just a few days, @zDan, but the updates for PTS are not all complete.

For example, the Mundus Stone changes are not all programmed in yet.

It's a lot more helpful for feedback if you do a CMX parse on PTS (or similar testing) and post an image of that.

I mean, even without uesp editor, just looking at the tooltips from the patch notes it's not hard to see that they are all extremely way too strong, especially when you can pair them together

As a long time Caluurion magblade, who plays in CP, no, just no. You can't make that assertion unless you name specific builds where the procs are "too strong" and until you clarify whether you're talking CP, no CP, or both, and whether you're talking with Malacath, or without. You should also really talk about builds that people actually play long term and that are, thus, verified to play well, not something you just threw together in the build editor. Nuance, please.

Talking about Caluurion in particular, I am not particularly keen on it losing it's crit activation feature, which will open it up to better cotrol by more classes and for combining with Malacath. On the other hand the set has two crit bonuses, wasted with that mythic. As a nightblade I won't be using Malacath. Also, on a magblade, the combination of Caluurion and Zaan, which may be something you're thinking of, puts you in melee range on a squishy build. The surprise / gank factor is good in open world, but it is by no means particularly strong nor particularly safe. Use Caluurion on a ranged build and you're dealing with a projectile that not only has an activation time, but that is also exceptionally slow to get to it's destination. It has it's benefits when you're already spamming an execute on someone. If not, then creating burst around that projectile sounds as tricky as anything to me. Furthermore you give up raw damage and healing for every proc set that you run.

I am talking both cp and no cp. Without malacath they are looking to be strong, but with malacath they look outright broken and there's no way you can defend that. If you have to rely on proc sets to get your damage then thats on you, I don't like the concept of getting massive amounts of damage just from doing nothing really.

Caluurions got buffed immensely, the travel time also got reduced. I've always played magblade without damaging procs and have been performing well on it no matter the situation.

The argument about giving up healing is irrelevant, as most of these people that run procs are zerglings that just rely on sheer numbers, theyre free to [snip] you down in the middle of a fight with no consequences. If you want the game to be as it was back in one tamriel with no skill proc damage, then by all means, defend your precious set that you need to rely on.

[Edited to remove Offensive Content]

fred4

zDan wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

zDan wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

The UESP Build Editor has come a long ways in just a few days, @zDan, but the updates for PTS are not all complete.

For example, the Mundus Stone changes are not all programmed in yet.

It's a lot more helpful for feedback if you do a CMX parse on PTS (or similar testing) and post an image of that.

I mean, even without uesp editor, just looking at the tooltips from the patch notes it's not hard to see that they are all extremely way too strong, especially when you can pair them together

As a long time Caluurion magblade, who plays in CP, no, just no. You can't make that assertion unless you name specific builds where the procs are "too strong" and until you clarify whether you're talking CP, no CP, or both, and whether you're talking with Malacath, or without. You should also really talk about builds that people actually play long term and that are, thus, verified to play well, not something you just threw together in the build editor. Nuance, please.

Talking about Caluurion in particular, I am not particularly keen on it losing it's crit activation feature, which will open it up to better cotrol by more classes and for combining with Malacath. On the other hand the set has two crit bonuses, wasted with that mythic. As a nightblade I won't be using Malacath. Also, on a magblade, the combination of Caluurion and Zaan, which may be something you're thinking of, puts you in melee range on a squishy build. The surprise / gank factor is good in open world, but it is by no means particularly strong nor particularly safe. Use Caluurion on a ranged build and you're dealing with a projectile that not only has an activation time, but that is also exceptionally slow to get to it's destination. It has it's benefits when you're already spamming an execute on someone. If not, then creating burst around that projectile sounds as tricky as anything to me. Furthermore you give up raw damage and healing for every proc set that you run.

I am talking both cp and no cp. Without malacath they are looking to be strong, but with malacath they look outright broken and there's no way you can defend that. If you have to rely on proc sets to get your damage then thats on you, I don't like the concept of getting massive amounts of damage just from doing nothing really.

Caluurions got buffed immensely, the travel time also got reduced. I've always played magblade without damaging procs and have been performing well on it no matter the situation.

The argument about giving up healing is irrelevant, as most of these people that run procs are zerglings that just rely on sheer numbers, theyre free to proctard you down in the middle of a fight with no consequences. If you want the game to be as it was back in one tamriel with no skill proc damage, then by all means, defend your precious set that you need to rely on.

Yep, I figured you'd take a hard line on this.

"They are looking to be strong" is not evidence.

"getting massive amounts of damage [from procs]" and "I've always played magblade without damaging procs and been performing well" is a contradiction, unless you're totally up yourself and think extremely highly of your own abilities.

"Caluurions got buffed immensely, the travel time also got reduced" is self-serving hyperbole. Caluurion got a small, IMO unwarranted but nonetheless small, buff to damage and a small (according to ZOS) buff to travel time, starting from a very slow baseline. The one concern I share is Malacath, but Caluurion on a nightblade is IMO the least convincing case for that, due to the crit bonuses on the set and the crit-centric nature of the class.

Calling people "proctards" is basically just name calling.

I'm all for balance. Like I said elsewhere, I'm the only Caluurion nightblade that I know. A friend would rather have more magicka / spell damage and fire larger bow procs. I think balance is currently pretty good on the set at least in CP, where I play. Those distinctions are IMO worth making. I see no need for dropping the crit activation mechanic, which will enable Malacath. I would also agree with anyone who called for measures to bring CP and no CP more into line, for example by having different versions of Battle Spirit. What I don't agree with is your attitude towards new, less experienced players, those who zerg and those who have less time to practice the game.

Back in One Tamriel I ran Viper and Red Mountain, but not Tremorscale, on my stam DK. I also ran more of a pressure build and hadn't yet figured out how to properly burst people down. This was my first MMO and I was not the guy one-shotting people with Viper and Tremorscale. I think the people who benefitted most from that meta were the more experienced players.

Rianai

Can't talk about CP, but in noCP Caluurion is already by far the most common set on magblades and it simply does too much for too little effort. It is a set which basically allows a player to burst without actually having to use a burst skill. Sets should not be a replacement for skill(s) period.

zDan

fred4 wrote: »

zDan wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

zDan wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

The UESP Build Editor has come a long ways in just a few days, @zDan, but the updates for PTS are not all complete.

For example, the Mundus Stone changes are not all programmed in yet.

It's a lot more helpful for feedback if you do a CMX parse on PTS (or similar testing) and post an image of that.

I mean, even without uesp editor, just looking at the tooltips from the patch notes it's not hard to see that they are all extremely way too strong, especially when you can pair them together

As a long time Caluurion magblade, who plays in CP, no, just no. You can't make that assertion unless you name specific builds where the procs are "too strong" and until you clarify whether you're talking CP, no CP, or both, and whether you're talking with Malacath, or without. You should also really talk about builds that people actually play long term and that are, thus, verified to play well, not something you just threw together in the build editor. Nuance, please.

Talking about Caluurion in particular, I am not particularly keen on it losing it's crit activation feature, which will open it up to better cotrol by more classes and for combining with Malacath. On the other hand the set has two crit bonuses, wasted with that mythic. As a nightblade I won't be using Malacath. Also, on a magblade, the combination of Caluurion and Zaan, which may be something you're thinking of, puts you in melee range on a squishy build. The surprise / gank factor is good in open world, but it is by no means particularly strong nor particularly safe. Use Caluurion on a ranged build and you're dealing with a projectile that not only has an activation time, but that is also exceptionally slow to get to it's destination. It has it's benefits when you're already spamming an execute on someone. If not, then creating burst around that projectile sounds as tricky as anything to me. Furthermore you give up raw damage and healing for every proc set that you run.

I am talking both cp and no cp. Without malacath they are looking to be strong, but with malacath they look outright broken and there's no way you can defend that. If you have to rely on proc sets to get your damage then thats on you, I don't like the concept of getting massive amounts of damage just from doing nothing really.

Caluurions got buffed immensely, the travel time also got reduced. I've always played magblade without damaging procs and have been performing well on it no matter the situation.

The argument about giving up healing is irrelevant, as most of these people that run procs are zerglings that just rely on sheer numbers, theyre free to proctard you down in the middle of a fight with no consequences. If you want the game to be as it was back in one tamriel with no skill proc damage, then by all means, defend your precious set that you need to rely on.

Yep, I figured you'd take a hard line on this.

"They are looking to be strong" is not evidence.

"getting massive amounts of damage [from procs]" and "I've always played magblade without damaging procs and been performing well" is a contradiction, unless you're totally up yourself and think extremely highly of your own abilities.

"Caluurions got buffed immensely, the travel time also got reduced" is self-serving hyperbole. Caluurion got a small, IMO unwarranted but nonetheless small, buff to damage and a small (according to ZOS) buff to travel time, starting from a very slow baseline. The one concern I share is Malacath, but Caluurion on a nightblade is IMO the least convincing case for that, due to the crit bonuses on the set and the crit-centric nature of the class.

Calling people "proctards" is basically just name calling.

I'm all for balance. Like I said elsewhere, I'm the only Caluurion nightblade that I know. A friend would rather have more magicka / spell damage and fire larger bow procs. I think balance is currently pretty good on the set at least in CP, where I play. Those distinctions are IMO worth making. I see no need for dropping the crit activation mechanic, which will enable Malacath. I would also agree with anyone who called for measures to bring CP and no CP more into line, for example by having different versions of Battle Spirit. What I don't agree with is your attitude towards new, less experienced players, those who zerg and those who have less time to practice the game.

Back in One Tamriel I ran Viper and Red Mountain, but not Tremorscale, on my stam DK. I also ran more of a pressure build and hadn't yet figured out how to properly burst people down. This was my first MMO and I was not the guy one-shotting people with Viper and Tremorscale. I think the people who benefitted most from that meta were the more experienced players.

Ok lets take caluurion out of the picture since you're getting so defensive over your little carry set. From what I have seen in the patch notes AND on the PTS server, the proc sets that I mentioned are looking to be way too strong and oppressive. That's all i'm trying to say.

Don't be so soft because I said proctards lmfao, its a game.

And yes... I do consider myself a good player, I'm not totally up myself, I just have knowledge and experience on a class with clips to back it up.

fred4

Rianai wrote: »

Can't talk about CP, but in noCP Caluurion is already by far the most common set on magblades and it simply does too much for too little effort. It is a set which basically allows a player to burst without actually having to use a burst skill. Sets should not be a replacement for skill(s) period.

Fair enough. Now I can't talk about no CP, but I can talk about CP. Using Caluurion without generating burst via skills will get you nowhere. Let's say you Lotus Fan someone. It's no enough. You have to CC and you have to use your ultimate. That plays nicely, but it's still pretty weak. Indeed, I've been called "feeble" by another player in this forum, who has periodically encountered me in game. I have, since then, changed my combo to include Elemental Weapon, dropping Lotus Fan. This is harder to land, but better burst. It's still merely decent when I compare it to the burst from my stam DK or my sorc, who run non-proc builds. The damage is usually insufficient to outright kill good and alert players with a gank. That's fine. That's how it should be. I'm not complaining. I'm saying it's balanced about right.

I used to obsess about reviewing my kills and deaths in FTC combat log. The power differential between Caluurion and what some builds hit me with is enormous. I remember a werewolf, before it was recently buffed, hitting me with Howl of Agony for near the same amount as my Caluurion proc hit him. Overloading sorcs with a detection potion are a nightmare, because they will hit you with the equivalent of a Caluurion proc every second, if you can't LoS. Stamblades have always been able to outperform my build, with Snipe, Incap, Killer's Blade and Merciless all hitting harder. Snipe hits instantly from range (in so far as you can only tell you're being attacked when the first Snipe arrives), whereas I have to go into melee range for my gank.

I happen to like this playstyle. The reason I play this particular set is because it enables melee magblade and it enables ganking in a style similar to what stamblades do by default, but they have always been able to hit me harder. They just do. When Caluurion has procced, it is spent for 10 seconds, whereas they keep going. Again, I'm not complaining, I'm merely trying to illustrate the reality. I get other benefits for that, notably cloak sustain, but everything is a compromise.

fred4

zDan wrote: »

Don't be so soft because I said proctards lmfao, its a game.

I am "soft" because "proctards" is not an argument. It is merely evidence of your anger and bias.

Ok lets take caluurion out of the picture since you're getting so defensive over your little carry set.

I do not accept your conclusion that it is a carry set nor that all proc sets are carry sets. I think it's good, but that it's currently pretty balanced in CP. I can't speak for no CP. I am against changes that will enable Malacath with it, more out of concern of someone finding a non-magblade OP build with it, not because I know for sure. I think the set is not underused, it has a niche and doesn't need to be changed.

fred4

@zDan, I don't have a lot of screenshots saved, but I want to show an example illustrating just how weak Caluurion is, compared to building for damage. I ganked this stamblade from Cloak on 12th April 2020. This was part of a longer engagement, so he knew I was coming and immediately counter attacked.

As you can see, his non-crit Surprise Attack hit me harder than my Caluurion proc hit him. The example is about as lop-sided as it gets, maybe not the best, but it's why I saved the screenshot. Caluurion's disease proc is the weakest on magblade in CP. He may have had Balorgh saved up and his Surprise Attacks were buffed by Incap. All the same, I was disgusted. Caluurion shouldn't have hit someone, capable of hitting back that hard, for so little damage, I thought. Or maybe it should and that's OK. Either way, it puts a lie to your notion that procs deal "massive" damage.

Please don't come to me with "on paper" numbers. The above is what actually happens in game, in CP, and it's not limited to this encounter. I am very well aware that duelling stands and falls, among other things, with your ability to execute proper combos, including partial heavies, bash-weaving, and so on. Except when it doesn't. There was nothing fancy about this, just Incap and 2x woven Surprise Attacks. Point being his build didn't use procs, but was strong. I'll give this guy that he had a good strategy, but that worked only because he had extreme damage at that moment and he probably knew what his build was capable of.

I know how to build, by the way. I am squishy and focused on damage avoidance, but I do have about 3K Impen and properly allocated CP for PvP. Please take it I'm not making some noob mistake in my build, nor am I an all Divines ganker. Again, this is not meant to be crying for buffs or nerfs or anything. This is merely to illustrate why I reject the notion that Caluurion does massive damage and that it is a carry in CP.

Daffen

Imagine running lotus fan on a gank build.

fred4

Daffen wrote: »

Imagine running lotus fan on a gank build.

I don't know what that's supposed to mean. A putdown, I presume? Lotus Fan happens to synergise well with Caluurion. It plays the nicest. I've not been the only one using it, though I have switched away from it for a better burst combo, since then. That's not the point, though. The point was merely to put a figure on how much actual damage Caluurion does in a typical encounter and how much a weapon damage focused build can hit you back for with their spammable, just to put the Caluurion damage into perspective.

Daffen

Considering the fact that the player you were fighting had a typical stamblade setup with decent tankiness and full impen compared to a build that is focused on ganking then you should expect to take high damage from everyone.

fred4

Daffen wrote: »

Considering the fact that the player you were fighting had a typical stamblade setup with decent tankiness and full impen compared to a build that is focused on ganking then you should expect to take high damage from everyone.

I also run full Impen.

Kadoin

fred4 wrote: »

zDan wrote: »

Don't be so soft because I said proctards lmfao, its a game.

I am "soft" because "proctards" is not an argument. It is merely evidence of your anger and bias.

Ok lets take caluurion out of the picture since you're getting so defensive over your little carry set.

I do not accept your conclusion that it is a carry set nor that all proc sets are carry sets. I think it's good, but that it's currently pretty balanced in CP. I can't speak for no CP. I am against changes that will enable Malacath with it, more out of concern of someone finding a non-magblade OP build with it, not because I know for sure. I think the set is not underused, it has a niche and doesn't need to be changed.

Don't worry, they put Caluurions like what's on the PTS and I will be using it on my tank build. It does a lot of damage, no longer requires a crit, and always procs a status effect? And it has a chance to proc minor defile? I don't see any downside for my stam DK or mag DK.

How exactly can anyone defend that as balanced? I disagree.

EtTuBrutus

@fred4 you're crutch just became bionic legs. It's ok to be excited about it. Simply stop acting like it's balanced though.

fred4

Kadoin wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

zDan wrote: »

Don't be so soft because I said proctards lmfao, its a game.

I am "soft" because "proctards" is not an argument. It is merely evidence of your anger and bias.

Ok lets take caluurion out of the picture since you're getting so defensive over your little carry set.

I do not accept your conclusion that it is a carry set nor that all proc sets are carry sets. I think it's good, but that it's currently pretty balanced in CP. I can't speak for no CP. I am against changes that will enable Malacath with it, more out of concern of someone finding a non-magblade OP build with it, not because I know for sure. I think the set is not underused, it has a niche and doesn't need to be changed.

Don't worry, they put Caluurions like what's on the PTS and I will be using it on my tank build. It does a lot of damage, no longer requires a crit, and always procs a status effect? And it has a chance to proc minor defile? I don't see any downside for my stam DK or mag DK.

How exactly can anyone defend that as balanced? I disagree.

Try it. A lot of people who do so on live go "meh" and move on to something else. Let us know how it works out on your presumably heavy armor mag DK with Malacath. Running it on a stam DK doesn't sound promising to me, though. I'm not defending a Malacath DK. That's the unknown. I'm defending Caluurion as it is on live.

EtTuBrutus

fred4 wrote: »

@zDan, I don't have a lot of screenshots saved, but I want to show an example illustrating just how weak Caluurion is, compared to building for damage. I ganked this stamblade from Cloak on 12th April 2020. This was part of a longer engagement, so he knew I was coming and immediately counter attacked.

As you can see, his non-crit Surprise Attack hit me harder than my Caluurion proc hit him. The example is about as lop-sided as it gets, maybe not the best, but it's why I saved the screenshot. Caluurion's disease proc is the weakest on magblade in CP. He may have had Balorgh saved up and his Surprise Attacks were buffed by Incap. All the same, I was disgusted. Caluurion shouldn't have hit someone, capable of hitting back that hard, for so little damage, I thought. Or maybe it should and that's OK. Either way, it puts a lie to your notion that procs deal "massive" damage.

Please don't come to me with "on paper" numbers. The above is what actually happens in game, in CP, and it's not limited to this encounter. I am very well aware that duelling stands and falls, among other things, with your ability to execute proper combos, including partial heavies, bash-weaving, and so on. Except when it doesn't. There was nothing fancy about this, just Incap and 2x woven Surprise Attacks. Point being his build didn't use procs, but was strong. I'll give this guy that he had a good strategy, but that worked only because he had extreme damage at that moment and he probably knew what his build was capable of.

I know how to build, by the way. I am squishy and focused on damage avoidance, but I do have about 3K Impen and properly allocated CP for PvP. Please take it I'm not making some noob mistake in my build, nor am I an all Divines ganker. Again, this is not meant to be crying for buffs or nerfs or anything. This is merely to illustrate why I reject the notion that Caluurion does massive damage and that it is a carry in CP.

That looks like youre not buffed, using no impen and he's got a better non crutch build than you. That's all that shows.

More importantly, it's not showing the synergy we're taking about, which is with malacath. With 14k penetration, minor (or major berserk, hello blast bones) and malacath, you'll readily combo like a king, with or with or hands! Thanks to amazing balancing to reduce lag.

fred4

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

@fred4 you're crutch just became bionic legs. It's ok to be excited about it. Simply stop acting like it's balanced though.

I am not excited about the Caluurion changes and I'm serious about what I said. Clever putdowns won't change that. You're gonna have to do better.

fred4

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

@zDan, I don't have a lot of screenshots saved, but I want to show an example illustrating just how weak Caluurion is, compared to building for damage. I ganked this stamblade from Cloak on 12th April 2020. This was part of a longer engagement, so he knew I was coming and immediately counter attacked.

As you can see, his non-crit Surprise Attack hit me harder than my Caluurion proc hit him. The example is about as lop-sided as it gets, maybe not the best, but it's why I saved the screenshot. Caluurion's disease proc is the weakest on magblade in CP. He may have had Balorgh saved up and his Surprise Attacks were buffed by Incap. All the same, I was disgusted. Caluurion shouldn't have hit someone, capable of hitting back that hard, for so little damage, I thought. Or maybe it should and that's OK. Either way, it puts a lie to your notion that procs deal "massive" damage.

Please don't come to me with "on paper" numbers. The above is what actually happens in game, in CP, and it's not limited to this encounter. I am very well aware that duelling stands and falls, among other things, with your ability to execute proper combos, including partial heavies, bash-weaving, and so on. Except when it doesn't. There was nothing fancy about this, just Incap and 2x woven Surprise Attacks. Point being his build didn't use procs, but was strong. I'll give this guy that he had a good strategy, but that worked only because he had extreme damage at that moment and he probably knew what his build was capable of.

I know how to build, by the way. I am squishy and focused on damage avoidance, but I do have about 3K Impen and properly allocated CP for PvP. Please take it I'm not making some noob mistake in my build, nor am I an all Divines ganker. Again, this is not meant to be crying for buffs or nerfs or anything. This is merely to illustrate why I reject the notion that Caluurion does massive damage and that it is a carry in CP.

That looks like youre not buffed, using no impen and he's got a better non crutch build than you. That's all that shows.

Unbelievable. Which part of "I ganked this stamblade from Cloak" and "I do have about 3K Impen" did you miss? Sorry, I cannot accept input from people who don't bother to fully read the post they're replying to nor those who don't fully understand the classes. I presume "not buffed" refers to the armor buff, which nightblade gets from having cloaked.

More importantly, it's not showing the synergy we're taking about, which is with malacath. With 14k penetration, minor (or major berserk, hello blast bones) and malacath, you'll readily combo like a king, with or with or hands! Thanks to amazing balancing to reduce lag.

So what are we talking about now? Proc sets in general or still Caluurion? Necros? I give up. I can't comment on necros. I didn't buy the class. All I can say is that proc damage isn't everything. If you use Malacath on a crit-centric class (nightblade and to some degree templar) with a crit-focused set (Caluurion has 2 lines of crit), you're giving up a lot of stuff and I don't buy that that is automatically a good deal until people confirm it via testing. Doing so on the PTS would be a start, limited though that tends to be.

EtTuBrutus

fred4 wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

@zDan, I don't have a lot of screenshots saved, but I want to show an example illustrating just how weak Caluurion is, compared to building for damage. I ganked this stamblade from Cloak on 12th April 2020. This was part of a longer engagement, so he knew I was coming and immediately counter attacked.

As you can see, his non-crit Surprise Attack hit me harder than my Caluurion proc hit him. The example is about as lop-sided as it gets, maybe not the best, but it's why I saved the screenshot. Caluurion's disease proc is the weakest on magblade in CP. He may have had Balorgh saved up and his Surprise Attacks were buffed by Incap. All the same, I was disgusted. Caluurion shouldn't have hit someone, capable of hitting back that hard, for so little damage, I thought. Or maybe it should and that's OK. Either way, it puts a lie to your notion that procs deal "massive" damage.

Please don't come to me with "on paper" numbers. The above is what actually happens in game, in CP, and it's not limited to this encounter. I am very well aware that duelling stands and falls, among other things, with your ability to execute proper combos, including partial heavies, bash-weaving, and so on. Except when it doesn't. There was nothing fancy about this, just Incap and 2x woven Surprise Attacks. Point being his build didn't use procs, but was strong. I'll give this guy that he had a good strategy, but that worked only because he had extreme damage at that moment and he probably knew what his build was capable of.

I know how to build, by the way. I am squishy and focused on damage avoidance, but I do have about 3K Impen and properly allocated CP for PvP. Please take it I'm not making some noob mistake in my build, nor am I an all Divines ganker. Again, this is not meant to be crying for buffs or nerfs or anything. This is merely to illustrate why I reject the notion that Caluurion does massive damage and that it is a carry in CP.

That looks like youre not buffed, using no impen and he's got a better non crutch build than you. That's all that shows.

Unbelievable. Which part of "I ganked this stamblade from Cloak" and "I do have about 3K Impen" did you miss? Sorry, I cannot accept input from people who don't bother to fully read the post they're replying to nor those who don't fully understand the classes. I presume "not buffed" refers to the armor buff, which nightblade gets from having cloaked.

More importantly, it's not showing the synergy we're taking about, which is with malacath. With 14k penetration, minor (or major berserk, hello blast bones) and malacath, you'll readily combo like a king, with or with or hands! Thanks to amazing balancing to reduce lag.

So what are we talking about now? Proc sets in general or still Caluurion? Necros? I give up. I can't comment on necros. I didn't buy the class. All I can say is that proc damage isn't everything. If you use Malacath on a crit-centric class (nightblade and to some degree templar) with a crit-focused set (Caluurion has 2 lines of crit), you're giving up a lot of stuff and I don't buy that that is automatically a good deal until people confirm it via testing. Doing so on the PTS would be a start, limited though that tends to be.

Im talking about buffing your damage. How hard you got beat doesn't matter to me. You're not running a beefy build. 5k caluurions from stealth (the opponent managed too cc break, incap, and SA weave you in the time it took you to lotus, drain and hit with your unbuffed caluurions as it hit so weak bc it was disease and you probably only had minor vulnerability from lotus up. Cheese better...)

Show your caluurions with minor berserk, vulnerability, breach, (on necros u can easily has have major berserk up 100%) and non disease damage. Then imagine 25% more dmg.