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With the release of 6.1.0, the Vampire skill line will be an abject failure of game design.

  • TX12001rwb17_ESO
    TX12001rwb17_ESO
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    JMadFour wrote: »
    All you PTS PC players, from someone who loves being a Vampire and thinks it is much better now than it was before Greymoor, but plays on Console -

    PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE advocate heavily(and by that I mean scream at the Devs until they get it) for

    1)Arterial Burst to be ranged.
    2)Blood Frenzy Replaced with a Gap Closer
    3)More Damage on Vampiric Drain.

    thanks.

    There are people like myself who already have a gap closer and rely on Frenzy for extra attack power, I believe perfect scion should grant 630 extra power to compensate.
  • SlimeBro1
    SlimeBro1
    ✭✭✭✭
    JMadFour wrote: »
    All you PTS PC players, from someone who loves being a Vampire and thinks it is much better now than it was before Greymoor, but plays on Console -

    PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE advocate heavily(and by that I mean scream at the Devs until they get it) for

    1)Arterial Burst to be ranged.
    2)Blood Frenzy Replaced with a Gap Closer
    3)More Damage on Vampiric Drain.

    thanks.

    that's exactly what this thread is for, my man
  • Vevvev
    Vevvev
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    JMadFour wrote: »
    All you PTS PC players, from someone who loves being a Vampire and thinks it is much better now than it was before Greymoor, but plays on Console -

    PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE advocate heavily(and by that I mean scream at the Devs until they get it) for

    1)Arterial Burst to be ranged.
    2)Blood Frenzy Replaced with a Gap Closer
    3)More Damage on Vampiric Drain.

    thanks.

    There are people like myself who already have a gap closer and rely on Frenzy for extra attack power, I believe perfect scion should grant 630 extra power to compensate.

    Whatever works!

    I just know some classes like magicka necromancer have issues with gap closing. They're not very sticky and are one of the slowest classes in the game.
    PC NA
    Breton MagDK
  • Vevvev
    Vevvev
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    SlimeBro1 wrote: »

    Yeah I actually really like the idea of throwing Blood Frenzy's effect onto Blood Scion.

    Since that is when people use Blood Frenzy the most anyway.

    Very true, in fact today I was just using that combo to solo the Volenfell dungeon for that dwarven mount lead! Can sometimes be fun to spice things up a bit by throwing on Sated Fury and seeing what you can do with it. I still hate it though...
    PC NA
    Breton MagDK
  • Faulgor
    Faulgor
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    ✭✭✭✭
    SlimeBro1 wrote: »
    Vevvev wrote: »
    JMadFour wrote: »
    All you PTS PC players, from someone who loves being a Vampire and thinks it is much better now than it was before Greymoor, but plays on Console -

    PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE advocate heavily(and by that I mean scream at the Devs until they get it) for

    1)Arterial Burst to be ranged.
    2)Blood Frenzy Replaced with a Gap Closer
    3)More Damage on Vampiric Drain.

    thanks.

    There are people like myself who already have a gap closer and rely on Frenzy for extra attack power, I believe perfect scion should grant 630 extra power to compensate.

    Whatever works!

    I just know some classes like magicka necromancer have issues with gap closing. They're not very sticky and are one of the slowest classes in the game.

    Yeah I actually really like the idea of throwing Blood Frenzy's effect onto Blood Scion.

    Since that is when people use Blood Frenzy the most anyway.
    If you make the Blood Scion as cheap to use as Blood Frenzy, sure. (:

    If you combined Perfect Scion and Blood Frenzy properly, you could make it so you stay in the Scion form as long as you could keep Blood Frenzy running (like currently, it toggles off when you don't have enough health instead of killing you). That might be a bit too close to Werewolf gameplay, but it would be fun and Lamae did say she created the Blood Scions to be aggressive.
    That would make Perfect Scion a viable option and actually build on the Blood Frenzy mechanic for those of us who like it.

    Two bats, one stone.
    Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • SlimeBro1
    SlimeBro1
    ✭✭✭✭
    Faulgor wrote: »
    SlimeBro1 wrote: »
    Vevvev wrote: »
    JMadFour wrote: »
    All you PTS PC players, from someone who loves being a Vampire and thinks it is much better now than it was before Greymoor, but plays on Console -

    PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE advocate heavily(and by that I mean scream at the Devs until they get it) for

    1)Arterial Burst to be ranged.
    2)Blood Frenzy Replaced with a Gap Closer
    3)More Damage on Vampiric Drain.

    thanks.

    There are people like myself who already have a gap closer and rely on Frenzy for extra attack power, I believe perfect scion should grant 630 extra power to compensate.

    Whatever works!

    I just know some classes like magicka necromancer have issues with gap closing. They're not very sticky and are one of the slowest classes in the game.

    Yeah I actually really like the idea of throwing Blood Frenzy's effect onto Blood Scion.

    Since that is when people use Blood Frenzy the most anyway.
    If you make the Blood Scion as cheap to use as Blood Frenzy, sure. (:

    If you combined Perfect Scion and Blood Frenzy properly, you could make it so you stay in the Scion form as long as you could keep Blood Frenzy running (like currently, it toggles off when you don't have enough health instead of killing you). That might be a bit too close to Werewolf gameplay, but it would be fun and Lamae did say she created the Blood Scions to be aggressive.
    That would make Perfect Scion a viable option and actually build on the Blood Frenzy mechanic for those of us who like it.

    Two bats, one stone.

    I'd be willing to make that compromise.
  • RobZha
    RobZha
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    Ryuvain wrote: »
    Can't really compare vampire to werewolf at all. One main upside to vampire is being able to mix in class skills with extra vamp skills. Werewolves can't use anything else than their preset bar.

    Thanks, I've always been next to clueless about werewolf because I've never been interested in it, so have only just watched a clip of them having their own bar for skills. It definitely makes sense why they have more of a complete set of skills and buffs.

    I think it's strange how they've made the two so different but would still like to see vampires working better without so much of a penalty for playing them. I'm not sure whether or not a vamp skill bar could be an answer to that, but not being able to mix skills would be a loss that would probably make a lot of players unhappy so no idea really.
    Edited by RobZha on July 16, 2020 6:34AM
  • RobZha
    RobZha
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    I think the only set of penalties they have right is the flame damage at +5%, +8% ,+13, +20%. If they sorted the other two penalties out so that they weren't so harsh then tweaked some of the skills a little maybe things would work a lot better. So for regular ability costs have something like +2%, +3%, +4%, +5%, and health regen at --20%, -30%, -40% and -50%.

    Or maybe scrap the ability costs, tone down the health regen cost and accept that seeing as vamps don't get the amount of buffs and strong skills that werewolves do they don't need to face such harsh penalties in the first place. Then they might only need to make a few smaller adjustments to the skill line for it to balance out better.
  • Ryuvain
    Ryuvain
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    RobZha wrote: »
    I think the only set of penalties they have right is the flame damage at +5%, +8% ,+13, +20%. If they sorted the other two penalties out so that they weren't so harsh then tweaked some of the skills a little maybe things would work a lot better. So for regular ability costs have something like +2%, +3%, +4%, +5%, and health regen at --20%, -30%, -40% and -50%.

    Or maybe scrap the ability costs, tone down the health regen cost and accept that seeing as vamps don't get the amount of buffs and strong skills that werewolves do they don't need to face such harsh penalties in the first place. Then they might only need to make a few smaller adjustments to the skill line for it to balance out better.

    You know everyone took original vampire because flame damage weakness was a bit situational (a lot of enemies don't even use fire) and that the health regen debuff doesn't matter because of heals.

    Vamp does need changes, but removing ability cost would make it go right back to being a free skill line.

    Maybe a different change?

    Mentioned above why werewolf isn't any stronger.
    Edited by Ryuvain on July 16, 2020 6:58AM
    Can we have behemoth form for werewolf yet?
  • RobZha
    RobZha
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    Ryuvain wrote: »
    Yeah, werewolf always looks good on paper, but losing your weapon passives, most class passives, and class skills, means you are actually looking at much less than at first glance.

    Good point, and if nothing else it's been good to learn more about werewolves than I did before posting here! Maybe the only thing we can hope for in the near future is some type of toning down of the vamp penalties. If they stay like they are maybe people playing them less will be something that makes them eventually consider that. If people are using them a lot though then maybe it'll be quite a while before anything changes.
  • idk
    idk
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    In no way am I saying that I like the changes being tested, but considering how effective some of the new vampire skills have been it is patently false to suggest the new vampire line is an abject failure of game design. One can suggest the proposed changes are very undesirable but that is about as far as we can truly take it.
    Really, idk
  • SlimeBro1
    SlimeBro1
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    Ryuvain wrote: »
    RobZha wrote: »
    I think the only set of penalties they have right is the flame damage at +5%, +8% ,+13, +20%. If they sorted the other two penalties out so that they weren't so harsh then tweaked some of the skills a little maybe things would work a lot better. So for regular ability costs have something like +2%, +3%, +4%, +5%, and health regen at --20%, -30%, -40% and -50%.

    Or maybe scrap the ability costs, tone down the health regen cost and accept that seeing as vamps don't get the amount of buffs and strong skills that werewolves do they don't need to face such harsh penalties in the first place. Then they might only need to make a few smaller adjustments to the skill line for it to balance out better.

    You know everyone took original vampire because flame damage weakness was a bit situational (a lot of enemies don't even use fire) and that the health regen debuff doesn't matter because of heals.

    Vamp does need changes, but removing ability cost would make it go right back to being a free skill line.

    Maybe a different change?

    Mentioned above why werewolf isn't any stronger.

    Which is why on this thread I suggested mainly ability changes over passive ones.

    Because with a working toolkit the passives would be more managable.
  • Faulgor
    Faulgor
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    ✭✭✭✭
    SlimeBro1 wrote: »
    Faulgor wrote: »
    SlimeBro1 wrote: »
    Faulgor wrote: »
    SlimeBro1 wrote: »
    Vevvev wrote: »
    JMadFour wrote: »
    All you PTS PC players, from someone who loves being a Vampire and thinks it is much better now than it was before Greymoor, but plays on Console -

    PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE advocate heavily(and by that I mean scream at the Devs until they get it) for

    1)Arterial Burst to be ranged.
    2)Blood Frenzy Replaced with a Gap Closer
    3)More Damage on Vampiric Drain.

    thanks.

    There are people like myself who already have a gap closer and rely on Frenzy for extra attack power, I believe perfect scion should grant 630 extra power to compensate.

    Whatever works!

    I just know some classes like magicka necromancer have issues with gap closing. They're not very sticky and are one of the slowest classes in the game.

    Yeah I actually really like the idea of throwing Blood Frenzy's effect onto Blood Scion.

    Since that is when people use Blood Frenzy the most anyway.
    If you make the Blood Scion as cheap to use as Blood Frenzy, sure. (:

    If you combined Perfect Scion and Blood Frenzy properly, you could make it so you stay in the Scion form as long as you could keep Blood Frenzy running (like currently, it toggles off when you don't have enough health instead of killing you). That might be a bit too close to Werewolf gameplay, but it would be fun and Lamae did say she created the Blood Scions to be aggressive.
    That would make Perfect Scion a viable option and actually build on the Blood Frenzy mechanic for those of us who like it.

    Two bats, one stone.

    I'd be willing to make that compromise.
    Great! While we enjoy our fantasy, what are you planning to do with your new gap closer?

    Convincing ZOS of anything has always been the hard part.
    Although now I can understand why the people of Tamriel turn from the Divines to Daedra worship - at least the Princes answer.

    I plan to travel around as a bat swarm literally everywhere. You have no idea. If we got a bat swarm teleport that didn't require a target, I'd never use my mount again.

    :D
    But what if your mount was a bat, too? :open_mouth:
    Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • SlimeBro1
    SlimeBro1
    ✭✭✭✭
    Faulgor wrote: »
    SlimeBro1 wrote: »
    Faulgor wrote: »
    SlimeBro1 wrote: »
    Faulgor wrote: »
    SlimeBro1 wrote: »
    Vevvev wrote: »
    JMadFour wrote: »
    All you PTS PC players, from someone who loves being a Vampire and thinks it is much better now than it was before Greymoor, but plays on Console -

    PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE advocate heavily(and by that I mean scream at the Devs until they get it) for

    1)Arterial Burst to be ranged.
    2)Blood Frenzy Replaced with a Gap Closer
    3)More Damage on Vampiric Drain.

    thanks.

    There are people like myself who already have a gap closer and rely on Frenzy for extra attack power, I believe perfect scion should grant 630 extra power to compensate.

    Whatever works!

    I just know some classes like magicka necromancer have issues with gap closing. They're not very sticky and are one of the slowest classes in the game.

    Yeah I actually really like the idea of throwing Blood Frenzy's effect onto Blood Scion.

    Since that is when people use Blood Frenzy the most anyway.
    If you make the Blood Scion as cheap to use as Blood Frenzy, sure. (:

    If you combined Perfect Scion and Blood Frenzy properly, you could make it so you stay in the Scion form as long as you could keep Blood Frenzy running (like currently, it toggles off when you don't have enough health instead of killing you). That might be a bit too close to Werewolf gameplay, but it would be fun and Lamae did say she created the Blood Scions to be aggressive.
    That would make Perfect Scion a viable option and actually build on the Blood Frenzy mechanic for those of us who like it.

    Two bats, one stone.

    I'd be willing to make that compromise.
    Great! While we enjoy our fantasy, what are you planning to do with your new gap closer?

    Convincing ZOS of anything has always been the hard part.
    Although now I can understand why the people of Tamriel turn from the Divines to Daedra worship - at least the Princes answer.

    I plan to travel around as a bat swarm literally everywhere. You have no idea. If we got a bat swarm teleport that didn't require a target, I'd never use my mount again.

    :D
    But what if your mount was a bat, too? :open_mouth:

    If they make a bat/gargoyle mount I think I'd die too.
  • Ryuvain
    Ryuvain
    ✭✭✭
    Ryuvain wrote: »
    Yeah, werewolf always looks good on paper, but losing your weapon passives, most class passives, and class skills, means you are actually looking at much less than at first glance.

    I like both vamp and werewolf and ironically wanted some kind of permanent passive buff and weakness for wolf like vamp has. I hate how it can literally be turned off by unslotting it lol.

    To me werewolf is great as it is, it sits along side my regular builds and is something i can pop on in delves, dungeons etc to have a bit of fun with. Optimal? Maybe not. Fun? Hell yeah.

    And that's what werewolf and vamp should be. Something cool. Something fun. Not something to create a meta build around but something that sits parallel to our regular builds that we can pull out on from time to time and just have a blast with.

    I agree with this. They shouldnt be meta at all since that means everyone will flock to it. To me, vampire is fun, and that's all I need.

    (Could use werewolf behemoth though, yeah I keep bringing it up.)
    Can we have behemoth form for werewolf yet?
  • SlimeBro1
    SlimeBro1
    ✭✭✭✭
    Ryuvain wrote: »
    Ryuvain wrote: »
    Yeah, werewolf always looks good on paper, but losing your weapon passives, most class passives, and class skills, means you are actually looking at much less than at first glance.

    I like both vamp and werewolf and ironically wanted some kind of permanent passive buff and weakness for wolf like vamp has. I hate how it can literally be turned off by unslotting it lol.

    To me werewolf is great as it is, it sits along side my regular builds and is something i can pop on in delves, dungeons etc to have a bit of fun with. Optimal? Maybe not. Fun? Hell yeah.

    And that's what werewolf and vamp should be. Something cool. Something fun. Not something to create a meta build around but something that sits parallel to our regular builds that we can pull out on from time to time and just have a blast with.

    I agree with this. They shouldnt be meta at all since that means everyone will flock to it. To me, vampire is fun, and that's all I need.

    (Could use werewolf behemoth though, yeah I keep bringing it up.)

    Surely you must realize that while it is fun for you, if this thread is anything to go by, it isn't fun for the majority of others?

    Don't get me wrong, I am not discrediting you having fun with the rework.

    I'm just trying to say that there's a bigger picture here.

    Also worth mentioning: if you have fun with the vampire skill line as is, it it is improved and made fun for others without taking away what you find fun about it, what do you lose by people wanting the skill line to be better and more useful?

    Also no one here is asking for the skill line to be meta. It just needs to be more useful. There's a difference between being optional, meta, or underpowered. Right now aside from BfB vamp is underpowered. This thread is about making it a viable for option for people who want to play as a vampire.
    Edited by SlimeBro1 on July 16, 2020 10:17AM
  • Ryuvain
    Ryuvain
    ✭✭✭
    SlimeBro1 wrote: »
    Ryuvain wrote: »
    Ryuvain wrote: »
    Yeah, werewolf always looks good on paper, but losing your weapon passives, most class passives, and class skills, means you are actually looking at much less than at first glance.

    I like both vamp and werewolf and ironically wanted some kind of permanent passive buff and weakness for wolf like vamp has. I hate how it can literally be turned off by unslotting it lol.

    To me werewolf is great as it is, it sits along side my regular builds and is something i can pop on in delves, dungeons etc to have a bit of fun with. Optimal? Maybe not. Fun? Hell yeah.

    And that's what werewolf and vamp should be. Something cool. Something fun. Not something to create a meta build around but something that sits parallel to our regular builds that we can pull out on from time to time and just have a blast with.

    I agree with this. They shouldnt be meta at all since that means everyone will flock to it. To me, vampire is fun, and that's all I need.

    (Could use werewolf behemoth though, yeah I keep bringing it up.)

    Surely you must realize that while it is fun for you, if this thread is anything to go by, it isn't fun for the majority of others?

    Don't get me wrong, I am not discrediting you having fun with the rework.

    I'm just trying to say that there's a bigger picture here.

    Also worth mentioning: if you have fun with the vampire skill line as is, it it is improved and made fun for others without taking away what you find fun about it, what do you lose by people wanting the skill line to be better and more useful?

    Also no one here is asking for the skill line to be meta. It just needs to be more useful. There's a difference between being optional, meta, or underpowered. Right now aside from BfB vamp is underpowered. This thread is about making it a viable for option for people who want to play as a vampire.

    Never said anything about not changing it did I? Me having fun with it is pretty irrelevant and shouldn't offend you or anyone else. I just wanted to state my opinion.

    If you can keep it balanced and make vampire even better than go ahead.

    Just know that it's extremely easy to put vampire into "free upgrade" territory that some seem to miss.
    Edited by Ryuvain on July 16, 2020 10:27AM
    Can we have behemoth form for werewolf yet?
  • SlimeBro1
    SlimeBro1
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    Ryuvain wrote: »
    SlimeBro1 wrote: »
    Ryuvain wrote: »
    Ryuvain wrote: »
    Yeah, werewolf always looks good on paper, but losing your weapon passives, most class passives, and class skills, means you are actually looking at much less than at first glance.

    I like both vamp and werewolf and ironically wanted some kind of permanent passive buff and weakness for wolf like vamp has. I hate how it can literally be turned off by unslotting it lol.

    To me werewolf is great as it is, it sits along side my regular builds and is something i can pop on in delves, dungeons etc to have a bit of fun with. Optimal? Maybe not. Fun? Hell yeah.

    And that's what werewolf and vamp should be. Something cool. Something fun. Not something to create a meta build around but something that sits parallel to our regular builds that we can pull out on from time to time and just have a blast with.

    I agree with this. They shouldnt be meta at all since that means everyone will flock to it. To me, vampire is fun, and that's all I need.

    (Could use werewolf behemoth though, yeah I keep bringing it up.)

    Surely you must realize that while it is fun for you, if this thread is anything to go by, it isn't fun for the majority of others?

    Don't get me wrong, I am not discrediting you having fun with the rework.

    I'm just trying to say that there's a bigger picture here.

    Also worth mentioning: if you have fun with the vampire skill line as is, it it is improved and made fun for others without taking away what you find fun about it, what do you lose by people wanting the skill line to be better and more useful?

    Also no one here is asking for the skill line to be meta. It just needs to be more useful. There's a difference between being optional, meta, or underpowered. Right now aside from BfB vamp is underpowered. This thread is about making it a viable for option for people who want to play as a vampire.

    Never said anything about not changing it did I? Me having fun with it is pretty irrelevant and shouldn't offend you or anyone else. I just wanted to state my opinion.

    If you can keep it balanced and make vampire even better than go ahead.

    Just know that it's extremely easy to put vampire into "free upgrade" territory that some seem to miss.

    Ah, fair enough. Sorry, the way your post was worded made it sound like you were against changing it. Though it's more on me because I'm used to people going "don't change it because **I** am having fun with it"

    I do apologize there though, I hope you can understand where the confusion came in.

    I wasn't offended by it either, but that is neither here nor there.
  • Ryuvain
    Ryuvain
    ✭✭✭
    SlimeBro1 wrote: »
    Ryuvain wrote: »
    SlimeBro1 wrote: »
    Ryuvain wrote: »
    Ryuvain wrote: »
    Yeah, werewolf always looks good on paper, but losing your weapon passives, most class passives, and class skills, means you are actually looking at much less than at first glance.

    I like both vamp and werewolf and ironically wanted some kind of permanent passive buff and weakness for wolf like vamp has. I hate how it can literally be turned off by unslotting it lol.

    To me werewolf is great as it is, it sits along side my regular builds and is something i can pop on in delves, dungeons etc to have a bit of fun with. Optimal? Maybe not. Fun? Hell yeah.

    And that's what werewolf and vamp should be. Something cool. Something fun. Not something to create a meta build around but something that sits parallel to our regular builds that we can pull out on from time to time and just have a blast with.

    I agree with this. They shouldnt be meta at all since that means everyone will flock to it. To me, vampire is fun, and that's all I need.

    (Could use werewolf behemoth though, yeah I keep bringing it up.)

    Surely you must realize that while it is fun for you, if this thread is anything to go by, it isn't fun for the majority of others?

    Don't get me wrong, I am not discrediting you having fun with the rework.

    I'm just trying to say that there's a bigger picture here.

    Also worth mentioning: if you have fun with the vampire skill line as is, it it is improved and made fun for others without taking away what you find fun about it, what do you lose by people wanting the skill line to be better and more useful?

    Also no one here is asking for the skill line to be meta. It just needs to be more useful. There's a difference between being optional, meta, or underpowered. Right now aside from BfB vamp is underpowered. This thread is about making it a viable for option for people who want to play as a vampire.

    Never said anything about not changing it did I? Me having fun with it is pretty irrelevant and shouldn't offend you or anyone else. I just wanted to state my opinion.

    If you can keep it balanced and make vampire even better than go ahead.

    Just know that it's extremely easy to put vampire into "free upgrade" territory that some seem to miss.

    Ah, fair enough. Sorry, the way your post was worded made it sound like you were against changing it. Though it's more on me because I'm used to people going "don't change it because **I** am having fun with it"

    I do apologize there though, I hope you can understand where the confusion came in.

    I wasn't offended by it either, but that is neither here nor there.

    None taken, I thought I offended you actually lol.

    I do try to remind people that vampire has been a direct buff in one way or another in both iterations so far.

    Vamps problem is how it can be so easily mixed with class abilities. You can take one ability and ignore the rest. This means it can never be truly strong or everyone will use it.

    Werewolf ironically has the same problem despite its differences. It cannot be allowed to be stronger than your base character.

    Both will always lag behind because of this. I could see even utility skills being taken at all times. Imagine all necros taking vamp since it gives them mobility.

    I have no clue how to fix it.
    Can we have behemoth form for werewolf yet?
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