Frost damage for warden

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Let's just make every skill scale off max mag and stam. Gg uniqueness and difference between classes

I mean...sure I guess? There's clearly a trend with that, whether you hate it or not lol. Like, i'm not trying to be rude, but based on the Crystal Weapon change, there's a clear bias in recent changes to things they can re-skin or fiddle with code for and fill holes in kits. Gripping needs code altering. That's it. No changes to targeting, no changes to animation, no changes to damage type, no changes anywhere but the scaling. It'd take them an incredibly short amount of time with minimal effort and no cost. That's why I am suggesting it. It's painless, easy and helps Stamden tremendously.

It helps stamden by hurting magden's themes. Why can't you have corrupting pollen? That skill barely needs to change in order for it to be useful to stamden. And at least like that, it doesn't hurt our identity. I want them to put more work in to make things better because the constant bandaids make things worse in the long term as there is more fluff to strip away.

@ESO_Nightingale There's several reasons I don't think Corrupting Pollen makes sense.

1. Green Balance tree is, thematically, healing and buffs. Not a single damage skill exists within the scope, and it carries zero passives to that effect. Every green balance passive is for healing.

2. It's a targeted AoE. Zos has made an effort to reduce those, particularly for Stam. With Caltrops gone, we're still pretty much down to one across the board. If they change the functionality, that takes work, investment, time and probably money to some extent.

3. It would give Stamden an easy, reliable source of Major Defile in PVP, which people already hate with Necro blastbones. That leads us back to the dangerous road of Stamdens getting dumpstered in PVE because of PVP. I don't want to watch that TV show again, thanks.

There's more reasons, but those are the pertinent ones that simply make it illogical to go that direction.

1: true in that it's the healing line but it has a burst heal which applies minor toughness to your group when it ends, it doesn't have to lose it's group utility.

2: i have no idea why this is even an issue

3: it's already been adressed in a previous update where it's no longer as ridiculous. People now have to be in that AoE for them to have the defile. And it drops off as soon as you exit. Many magdens don't run it anymore over budding seeds as far as I've seen.

@ESO_Nightingale

1. Giving Stamdens a reliable way to apply Toughness seems to be against their direction. Furthermore, skills that heal and deal damage are a big no-no right now. Look at Ritual. It's one or the other. Further, with zero damage passives in the tree, this would fall flat.

2. It's an issue, apparently. Stamina has not received a single targeted AoE since the change to Caltrops. I have to assume it's for the design model of Stam: Single Mag: AoE. If that's the case, makes perfect sense.

3. Okay, you're telling me you can't already hear the tears about a Stamden leaping on someone with Shalks triggered to dizzy swing spam in a major defile field with a DB stun? C'mon, dude. Be realistic. Stamden has long been the most hated spec in PVP. Giving them Major Defile would be a colossal blunder, especially if it deals competitive damage.

1: the healing can be significantly reduced. Doesn't have to stay at max.

2: its pretty minor tbh. I wouldn't worry, but you could always pick from another skill I've listed. Bird of prey, Bursting Vines or Leeching Vines. You could throw a bleed on any of those and justify it with "spray a volley of razor feathers" or just talk about thorns on the vines skills.

3: If it was an issue for magden you'd have heard about it recently. Worst case scenario, you can always remove it since major defile is now being seen as far too strong for it's own good.

I would like to keep magden's frost identity to magden. And stamden's bleed identity to stamden.

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Let's just make every skill scale off max mag and stam. Gg uniqueness and difference between classes

I mean...sure I guess? There's clearly a trend with that, whether you hate it or not lol. Like, i'm not trying to be rude, but based on the Crystal Weapon change, there's a clear bias in recent changes to things they can re-skin or fiddle with code for and fill holes in kits. Gripping needs code altering. That's it. No changes to targeting, no changes to animation, no changes to damage type, no changes anywhere but the scaling. It'd take them an incredibly short amount of time with minimal effort and no cost. That's why I am suggesting it. It's painless, easy and helps Stamden tremendously.

It helps stamden by hurting magden's themes. Why can't you have corrupting pollen? That skill barely needs to change in order for it to be useful to stamden. And at least like that, it doesn't hurt our identity. I want them to put more work in to make things better because the constant bandaids make things worse in the long term as there is more fluff to strip away.

@ESO_Nightingale There's several reasons I don't think Corrupting Pollen makes sense.

1. Green Balance tree is, thematically, healing and buffs. Not a single damage skill exists within the scope, and it carries zero passives to that effect. Every green balance passive is for healing.

2. It's a targeted AoE. Zos has made an effort to reduce those, particularly for Stam. With Caltrops gone, we're still pretty much down to one across the board. If they change the functionality, that takes work, investment, time and probably money to some extent.

3. It would give Stamden an easy, reliable source of Major Defile in PVP, which people already hate with Necro blastbones. That leads us back to the dangerous road of Stamdens getting dumpstered in PVE because of PVP. I don't want to watch that TV show again, thanks.

There's more reasons, but those are the pertinent ones that simply make it illogical to go that direction.

1: true in that it's the healing line but it has a burst heal which applies minor toughness to your group when it ends, it doesn't have to lose it's group utility.

2: i have no idea why this is even an issue

3: it's already been adressed in a previous update where it's no longer as ridiculous. People now have to be in that AoE for them to have the defile. And it drops off as soon as you exit. Many magdens don't run it anymore over budding seeds as far as I've seen.

@ESO_Nightingale

1. Giving Stamdens a reliable way to apply Toughness seems to be against their direction. Furthermore, skills that heal and deal damage are a big no-no right now. Look at Ritual. It's one or the other. Further, with zero damage passives in the tree, this would fall flat.

2. It's an issue, apparently. Stamina has not received a single targeted AoE since the change to Caltrops. I have to assume it's for the design model of Stam: Single Mag: AoE. If that's the case, makes perfect sense.

3. Okay, you're telling me you can't already hear the tears about a Stamden leaping on someone with Shalks triggered to dizzy swing spam in a major defile field with a DB stun? C'mon, dude. Be realistic. Stamden has long been the most hated spec in PVP. Giving them Major Defile would be a colossal blunder, especially if it deals competitive damage.

1: the healing can be significantly reduced. Doesn't have to stay at max.

2: its pretty minor tbh. I wouldn't worry, but you could always pick from another skill I've listed. Bird of prey, Bursting Vines or Leeching Vines. You could throw a bleed on any of those and justify it with "spray a volley of razor feathers" or just talk about thorns on the vines skills.

3: If it was an issue for magden you'd have heard about it recently. Worst case scenario, you can always remove it since major defile is now being seen as far too strong for it's own good.

@ESO_Nightingale

1. Haven't checked the tooltip, but pretty sure Ritual lost its healing entirely based on the notes. Damage ramp instead.

2. How on earth would Bird of Prey, Bursting Vines or Leeching Vines go from a self-buff to an AoE? Wut? That's an entire wholesale skill redesign.

3. If you remove the Defile, you have to replace it with something, or the skill would have to do absurd damage to even be feasible.

In the past ~5 posts, you've acknowledged that using any of the skills you're suggesting would take a pretty much complete redesign. New passives, new functionality, new targeting, likely new animations, the list goes on and on. Zos is focused on fixing performance, but they're attempting to throw players a bone by using underutilized skills like Gripping Shards with small-scale changes like the Sorc change this patch to Stam's new spammable. This ties in beautifully.

My suggestion requires changing a few lines of code. You're asking for an entire ability rework, essentially. They're not doing that mid-cycle. My change could be implemented seamlessly tomorrow for testing.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Let's just make every skill scale off max mag and stam. Gg uniqueness and difference between classes

I mean...sure I guess? There's clearly a trend with that, whether you hate it or not lol. Like, i'm not trying to be rude, but based on the Crystal Weapon change, there's a clear bias in recent changes to things they can re-skin or fiddle with code for and fill holes in kits. Gripping needs code altering. That's it. No changes to targeting, no changes to animation, no changes to damage type, no changes anywhere but the scaling. It'd take them an incredibly short amount of time with minimal effort and no cost. That's why I am suggesting it. It's painless, easy and helps Stamden tremendously.

It helps stamden by hurting magden's themes. Why can't you have corrupting pollen? That skill barely needs to change in order for it to be useful to stamden. And at least like that, it doesn't hurt our identity. I want them to put more work in to make things better because the constant bandaids make things worse in the long term as there is more fluff to strip away.

@ESO_Nightingale There's several reasons I don't think Corrupting Pollen makes sense.

1. Green Balance tree is, thematically, healing and buffs. Not a single damage skill exists within the scope, and it carries zero passives to that effect. Every green balance passive is for healing.

2. It's a targeted AoE. Zos has made an effort to reduce those, particularly for Stam. With Caltrops gone, we're still pretty much down to one across the board. If they change the functionality, that takes work, investment, time and probably money to some extent.

3. It would give Stamden an easy, reliable source of Major Defile in PVP, which people already hate with Necro blastbones. That leads us back to the dangerous road of Stamdens getting dumpstered in PVE because of PVP. I don't want to watch that TV show again, thanks.

There's more reasons, but those are the pertinent ones that simply make it illogical to go that direction.

1: true in that it's the healing line but it has a burst heal which applies minor toughness to your group when it ends, it doesn't have to lose it's group utility.

2: i have no idea why this is even an issue

3: it's already been adressed in a previous update where it's no longer as ridiculous. People now have to be in that AoE for them to have the defile. And it drops off as soon as you exit. Many magdens don't run it anymore over budding seeds as far as I've seen.

@ESO_Nightingale

1. Giving Stamdens a reliable way to apply Toughness seems to be against their direction. Furthermore, skills that heal and deal damage are a big no-no right now. Look at Ritual. It's one or the other. Further, with zero damage passives in the tree, this would fall flat.

2. It's an issue, apparently. Stamina has not received a single targeted AoE since the change to Caltrops. I have to assume it's for the design model of Stam: Single Mag: AoE. If that's the case, makes perfect sense.

3. Okay, you're telling me you can't already hear the tears about a Stamden leaping on someone with Shalks triggered to dizzy swing spam in a major defile field with a DB stun? C'mon, dude. Be realistic. Stamden has long been the most hated spec in PVP. Giving them Major Defile would be a colossal blunder, especially if it deals competitive damage.

1: the healing can be significantly reduced. Doesn't have to stay at max.

2: its pretty minor tbh. I wouldn't worry, but you could always pick from another skill I've listed. Bird of prey, Bursting Vines or Leeching Vines. You could throw a bleed on any of those and justify it with "spray a volley of razor feathers" or just talk about thorns on the vines skills.

3: If it was an issue for magden you'd have heard about it recently. Worst case scenario, you can always remove it since major defile is now being seen as far too strong for it's own good.

@ESO_Nightingale

1. Haven't checked the tooltip, but pretty sure Ritual lost its healing entirely based on the notes. Damage ramp instead.

2. How on earth would Bird of Prey, Bursting Vines or Leeching Vines go from a self-buff to an AoE? Wut? That's an entire wholesale skill redesign.

3. If you remove the Defile, you have to replace it with something, or the skill would have to do absurd damage to even be feasible.

In the past ~5 posts, you've acknowledged that using any of the skills you're suggesting would take a pretty much complete redesign. New passives, new functionality, new targeting, likely new animations, the list goes on and on. Zos is focused on fixing performance, but they're attempting to throw players a bone with small-scale changes like the Sorc change this patch to Stam's new spammable.

My suggestion requires changing a few lines of code. You're asking for an entire ability rework, essentially. They're not doing that mid-cycle. My change could be implemented seamlessly tomorrow for testing.

Exactly. Any sort of rework would be better for everyone. Your suggestion causes more harm because it rips down the last barrier between our class skills. Even magcro has a difference over stamcro because it has it's ground aoe and elementalist themes in it's skill design. With this "simple" change, it means there is nothing left between us and stamden would have more damage identity than magden since it also has bleeds. I care about themes more than you do clearly so you haven't taken into consideration in what this change means.

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Exactly. Any sort of rework would be better for everyone. Your suggestion causes more harm because it rips down the last barrier between our class skills. Even magcro has a difference over stamcro because it has it's ground aoe and elementalist themes in it's skill design. With this "simple" change, it means there is nothing left between us and stamden would have more damage identity than magden since it also has bleeds. I care about themes more than you do clearly so you haven't taken into consideration in what this change means.

@ESO_Nightingale

And reworks may come down the line. That's entirely plausible. There may be an entire Frost Mage rework coming for Magden. Or maybe not. We don't know, but what I do know is Stamden could use some help now. Not next patch, not next year, not 2022, this cycle. This change fits that need. It could be reverted later, much as the passive change to Advanced Species was. It could be expanded upon by making it the only frost skill Stamden has, while Magden has all frost skills but one animal skill. See how thematic that would be? I'm working in immediate, concrete solutions that solve problems without harming the health of the game from a numbers and balance perspective. I get what you mean, I genuinely do, but unless there's a Warden rework coming in Q4, it's pretty meaningless pipe dreaming. Hell, remove the bleeds, they're absolute trash anyway.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Exactly. Any sort of rework would be better for everyone. Your suggestion causes more harm because it rips down the last barrier between our class skills. Even magcro has a difference over stamcro because it has it's ground aoe and elementalist themes in it's skill design. With this "simple" change, it means there is nothing left between us and stamden would have more damage identity than magden since it also has bleeds. I care about themes more than you do clearly so you haven't taken into consideration in what this change means.

@ESO_Nightingale

And reworks may come down the line. That's entirely plausible. There may be an entire Frost Mage rework coming for Magden. Or maybe not. We don't know, but what I do know is Stamden could use some help now. Not next patch, not next year, not 2022, this cycle. This change fits that need. It could be reverted later, much as the passive change to Advanced Species was. It could be expanded upon by making it the only frost skill Stamden has, while Magden has all frost skills but one animal skill. See how thematic that would be? I'm working in immediate, concrete solutions that solve problems without harming the health of the game from a numbers perspective. I get what you mean, I genuinely do, but unless there's a Warden rework coming in Q4, it's pretty meaningless pipe dreaming. Hell, remove the bleeds, they're absolute trash anyway.

I've been waiting for legitimate reworks for a long time as well. They've come to other classes and eventually will come to ours. I would much rather the job be done mostly solidly rather than slapped together without a second thought. While it can be reverted later, it's a hassle to rework skill effects rather than a number on a passive. See incapaciting strike for example. That was a PAIN to revert.

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I've been waiting for legitimate reworks for a long time as well. They've come to other classes and eventually will come to ours. I would much rather the job be done mostly solidly rather than slapped together without a second thought. While it can be reverted later, it's a hassle to rework skill effects rather than a number on a passive. See incapaciting strike for example. That was a PAIN to revert.

@ESO_Nightingale

But you're not reworking skill effects. It's very, very simple.

Gripping Shards -> Scales off max health -> Scales off highest offensive stat

REWORK COMES

Gripping Shards -> Scales off highest offensive stat -> Scales off max health

Good lord, you could copypasta the code and store it on a thumb drive to revert it later. There's literally nothing changing but the damage calc. No animation changes, no functionality changes, no targeting changes, that's it. It's the easiest, cleanest, simplest change that is incredibly easy to revert at any time.

We've gone back and forth about a lot of skills, and each time you've had really compelling fundamental points beyond thematics as to why an alternative would be better. That doesn't exist here, i'm sorry. Not if Stamden is getting anything in the very near future. I'm not comfortable with Stamden rotting away for another year so you can feel good about having a frost skill.

YandereGirlfriend

I still think that one of the Polar Winds morphs should be a damage ability.

Leave the heal alone on the one and then increase the damage and drop the cost of the other to the level and length of a proper DoT (10-12 seconds). It would be like the Sorcerer's Hurricane with a smaller radius that gives the stun as its secondary feature. And that's useful in both PvE and PvP. Name it "Blizzard" or something. Easy peasy.

Skjaldbjorn

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I still think that one of the Polar Winds morphs should be a damage ability.

Leave the heal alone on the one and then increase the damage and drop the cost of the other to the level and length of a proper DoT (10-12 seconds). It would be like the Sorcerer's Hurricane with a smaller radius that gives the stun as its secondary feature. And that's useful in both PvE and PvP. Name it "Blizzard" or something. Easy peasy.

I said that last cycle, honestly. Polar Wind should have a firm damage morph.

Lughlongarm

Warden got skills without a real purpose like Frozen Gate and Nature's Grasp. Both skills could have an offensive morph and some rework as well.

Skjaldbjorn

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Warden got skills without a real purpose like Frozen Gate and Nature's Grasp. Both skills could have an offensive morph and some rework as well.

I'd be fine with Frozen Gate becoming a damage skill, at least the morph that ports allies. Only thing I ever see that used for is trolling. Might be good in PVP, though. Not sure.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I still think that one of the Polar Winds morphs should be a damage ability.

Leave the heal alone on the one and then increase the damage and drop the cost of the other to the level and length of a proper DoT (10-12 seconds). It would be like the Sorcerer's Hurricane with a smaller radius that gives the stun as its secondary feature. And that's useful in both PvE and PvP. Name it "Blizzard" or something. Easy peasy.

I said that last cycle, honestly. Polar Wind should have a firm damage morph.

Reguarding this, Arctic Blast would be the best option for a damage focused rework. Tanks don't use this morph as often as they do polar wind, and it makes stamden and magden less irritating to play against in PvP which im sure many people would be happy to see. Overall we shouldn't be using arctic wind as a heal in pvp because our skills were originally designed to heal less overall due to the major mending passive. Due to the healing nerfs, living trellis now feels pretty bad to use to heal, so buffing that up by 25% or so should make it feel a little better than it did last patch while serving as compensation for the loss of blast's heal, while making arctic blast an actual damage skill. Reasons why i suggest my rework idea "AB4.0" is not just because it's thematically pleasing (as it's a literal frost tornado) but because it aims to make the skill universally useful for magden in both pvp and pve. But it's mainly tailored to pvp. Magden is all about front facing aoe burst due to deep fissure, so having it be a fast line moving AoE is unique but still fits with that playstyle, and, of course, increasing the duration on the existing cloak effect means it can continue to work extremely well with northern storm, but have more potential in pve. Changing the stun away from a defensive one that ticks every 3 second is good because it can be used both offensively and defensively, what we needed in the first place was an offensive stun. Currently it's only good for when people are on you while attacking you, which isn't every situation, and increasing the radius just begins to make the skill oppressive, like the old permafrost, additionally, the current stun can also stun you after you have stunned blast's caster, leading it to feel cheap to fight against, just like betty's ability to purge stuns.

After this, polar wind should be adressed in pvp so that it is somehow less effective for damage dealers to abuse.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Warden got skills without a real purpose like Frozen Gate and Nature's Grasp. Both skills could have an offensive morph and some rework as well.

I'd be fine with Frozen Gate becoming a damage skill, at least the morph that ports allies. Only thing I ever see that used for is trolling. Might be good in PVP, though. Not sure.

Frozen retreat is practically useless but quite fun. It might be okay if they removed the enemy pull and made the ally pull have more range.

Oakiyo

They should change Frozen retreat to a teleport ability where you tp at the location you target

Joxer61

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I've been waiting for legitimate reworks for a long time as well. They've come to other classes and eventually will come to ours. I would much rather the job be done mostly solidly rather than slapped together without a second thought. While it can be reverted later, it's a hassle to rework skill effects rather than a number on a passive. See incapaciting strike for example. That was a PAIN to revert.

@ESO_Nightingale

But you're not reworking skill effects. It's very, very simple.

Gripping Shards -> Scales off max health -> Scales off highest offensive stat

REWORK COMES

Gripping Shards -> Scales off highest offensive stat -> Scales off max health

Good lord, you could copypasta the code and store it on a thumb drive to revert it later. There's literally nothing changing but the damage calc. No animation changes, no functionality changes, no targeting changes, that's it. It's the easiest, cleanest, simplest change that is incredibly easy to revert at any time.

We've gone back and forth about a lot of skills, and each time you've had really compelling fundamental points beyond thematics as to why an alternative would be better. That doesn't exist here, i'm sorry. Not if Stamden is getting anything in the very near future. I'm not comfortable with Stamden rotting away for another year so you can feel good about having a frost skill.

amen to this! makes complete sense, easy as in terms of coding and gives us the crit buff. What @ESO_Nightingale suggests doesnt give us that crit buff.....so 2 pages of back and forth when this is all that needs to happen, done and dusted.

And to add to this, WHY should Magden be frost yet Stamden cant be? says who? Stamsorc uses lightning, DK's share fire, etc. Just silly to think that one concept should be held ransom by a class.

ESO_Nightingale

Joxer61 wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I've been waiting for legitimate reworks for a long time as well. They've come to other classes and eventually will come to ours. I would much rather the job be done mostly solidly rather than slapped together without a second thought. While it can be reverted later, it's a hassle to rework skill effects rather than a number on a passive. See incapaciting strike for example. That was a PAIN to revert.

@ESO_Nightingale

But you're not reworking skill effects. It's very, very simple.

Gripping Shards -> Scales off max health -> Scales off highest offensive stat

REWORK COMES

Gripping Shards -> Scales off highest offensive stat -> Scales off max health

Good lord, you could copypasta the code and store it on a thumb drive to revert it later. There's literally nothing changing but the damage calc. No animation changes, no functionality changes, no targeting changes, that's it. It's the easiest, cleanest, simplest change that is incredibly easy to revert at any time.

We've gone back and forth about a lot of skills, and each time you've had really compelling fundamental points beyond thematics as to why an alternative would be better. That doesn't exist here, i'm sorry. Not if Stamden is getting anything in the very near future. I'm not comfortable with Stamden rotting away for another year so you can feel good about having a frost skill.

amen to this! makes complete sense, easy as in terms of coding and gives us the crit buff. What @ESO_Nightingale suggests doesnt give us that crit buff.....so 2 pages of back and forth when this is all that needs to happen, done and dusted.

And to add to this, WHY should Magden be frost yet Stamden cant be? says who? Stamsorc uses lightning, DK's share fire, etc. Just silly to think that one concept should be held ransom by a class.

i have suggested a solution to glacial in this thread. and by the same logic, should magdk get poison and magcro get disease? no. stamden has damage identity with bleeds. and it should be further improved on. besides, dk and sorc have differing playstyles that have unique skills suited to them. warden would absolutely have none of that, with this change. Frankly i would let up on this whole point i'm making, if we got a truely unique damage skill for each subclass both magden and stamden, but i still think glacial should work with bleeds to increase crit damage. a damage skill that would alter our playstyles from eachother is what would be for the best. i know it seems dumb to be so aggressively defensive. but i'm just trying to defend the last damage skill magden has that stamden doesn't use.

Joxer61

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I've been waiting for legitimate reworks for a long time as well. They've come to other classes and eventually will come to ours. I would much rather the job be done mostly solidly rather than slapped together without a second thought. While it can be reverted later, it's a hassle to rework skill effects rather than a number on a passive. See incapaciting strike for example. That was a PAIN to revert.

@ESO_Nightingale

But you're not reworking skill effects. It's very, very simple.

Gripping Shards -> Scales off max health -> Scales off highest offensive stat

REWORK COMES

Gripping Shards -> Scales off highest offensive stat -> Scales off max health

Good lord, you could copypasta the code and store it on a thumb drive to revert it later. There's literally nothing changing but the damage calc. No animation changes, no functionality changes, no targeting changes, that's it. It's the easiest, cleanest, simplest change that is incredibly easy to revert at any time.

We've gone back and forth about a lot of skills, and each time you've had really compelling fundamental points beyond thematics as to why an alternative would be better. That doesn't exist here, i'm sorry. Not if Stamden is getting anything in the very near future. I'm not comfortable with Stamden rotting away for another year so you can feel good about having a frost skill.

amen to this! makes complete sense, easy as in terms of coding and gives us the crit buff. What @ESO_Nightingale suggests doesnt give us that crit buff.....so 2 pages of back and forth when this is all that needs to happen, done and dusted.

And to add to this, WHY should Magden be frost yet Stamden cant be? says who? Stamsorc uses lightning, DK's share fire, etc. Just silly to think that one concept should be held ransom by a class.

i have suggested a solution to glacial in this thread. and by the same logic, should magdk get poison and magcro get disease? no. stamden has damage identity with bleeds. and it should be further improved on. besides, dk and sorc have differing playstyles that have unique skills suited to them. warden would absolutely have none of that, with this change.

but you say it all in your sig.................... "Let's make frost better for everyone!"

ESO_Nightingale

Joxer61 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I've been waiting for legitimate reworks for a long time as well. They've come to other classes and eventually will come to ours. I would much rather the job be done mostly solidly rather than slapped together without a second thought. While it can be reverted later, it's a hassle to rework skill effects rather than a number on a passive. See incapaciting strike for example. That was a PAIN to revert.

@ESO_Nightingale

But you're not reworking skill effects. It's very, very simple.

Gripping Shards -> Scales off max health -> Scales off highest offensive stat

REWORK COMES

Gripping Shards -> Scales off highest offensive stat -> Scales off max health

Good lord, you could copypasta the code and store it on a thumb drive to revert it later. There's literally nothing changing but the damage calc. No animation changes, no functionality changes, no targeting changes, that's it. It's the easiest, cleanest, simplest change that is incredibly easy to revert at any time.

We've gone back and forth about a lot of skills, and each time you've had really compelling fundamental points beyond thematics as to why an alternative would be better. That doesn't exist here, i'm sorry. Not if Stamden is getting anything in the very near future. I'm not comfortable with Stamden rotting away for another year so you can feel good about having a frost skill.

amen to this! makes complete sense, easy as in terms of coding and gives us the crit buff. What @ESO_Nightingale suggests doesnt give us that crit buff.....so 2 pages of back and forth when this is all that needs to happen, done and dusted.

And to add to this, WHY should Magden be frost yet Stamden cant be? says who? Stamsorc uses lightning, DK's share fire, etc. Just silly to think that one concept should be held ransom by a class.

i have suggested a solution to glacial in this thread. and by the same logic, should magdk get poison and magcro get disease? no. stamden has damage identity with bleeds. and it should be further improved on. besides, dk and sorc have differing playstyles that have unique skills suited to them. warden would absolutely have none of that, with this change.

but you say it all in your sig.................... "Let's make frost better for everyone!"

at the time i wrote it, it specifically meant to use and to fight against. not "lets give everyone access to frost"

Joxer61

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I've been waiting for legitimate reworks for a long time as well. They've come to other classes and eventually will come to ours. I would much rather the job be done mostly solidly rather than slapped together without a second thought. While it can be reverted later, it's a hassle to rework skill effects rather than a number on a passive. See incapaciting strike for example. That was a PAIN to revert.

@ESO_Nightingale

But you're not reworking skill effects. It's very, very simple.

Gripping Shards -> Scales off max health -> Scales off highest offensive stat

REWORK COMES

Gripping Shards -> Scales off highest offensive stat -> Scales off max health

Good lord, you could copypasta the code and store it on a thumb drive to revert it later. There's literally nothing changing but the damage calc. No animation changes, no functionality changes, no targeting changes, that's it. It's the easiest, cleanest, simplest change that is incredibly easy to revert at any time.

We've gone back and forth about a lot of skills, and each time you've had really compelling fundamental points beyond thematics as to why an alternative would be better. That doesn't exist here, i'm sorry. Not if Stamden is getting anything in the very near future. I'm not comfortable with Stamden rotting away for another year so you can feel good about having a frost skill.

amen to this! makes complete sense, easy as in terms of coding and gives us the crit buff. What @ESO_Nightingale suggests doesnt give us that crit buff.....so 2 pages of back and forth when this is all that needs to happen, done and dusted.

And to add to this, WHY should Magden be frost yet Stamden cant be? says who? Stamsorc uses lightning, DK's share fire, etc. Just silly to think that one concept should be held ransom by a class.

i have suggested a solution to glacial in this thread. and by the same logic, should magdk get poison and magcro get disease? no. stamden has damage identity with bleeds. and it should be further improved on. besides, dk and sorc have differing playstyles that have unique skills suited to them. warden would absolutely have none of that, with this change.

but you say it all in your sig.................... "Let's make frost better for everyone!"

at the time i wrote it, it specifically meant to use and to fight against. not "lets give everyone access to frost"

I will say this, and have often wondered...why do the NPC's in the game that use frost spells hit like trucks and yet frost for Wardens is like melting ice cream? Seems odd, so yea, I agree that frost needs to hit harder, i mean its a frozen snowball to the face and those hurt!

ESO_Nightingale

Joxer61 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I've been waiting for legitimate reworks for a long time as well. They've come to other classes and eventually will come to ours. I would much rather the job be done mostly solidly rather than slapped together without a second thought. While it can be reverted later, it's a hassle to rework skill effects rather than a number on a passive. See incapaciting strike for example. That was a PAIN to revert.

@ESO_Nightingale

But you're not reworking skill effects. It's very, very simple.

Gripping Shards -> Scales off max health -> Scales off highest offensive stat

REWORK COMES

Gripping Shards -> Scales off highest offensive stat -> Scales off max health

Good lord, you could copypasta the code and store it on a thumb drive to revert it later. There's literally nothing changing but the damage calc. No animation changes, no functionality changes, no targeting changes, that's it. It's the easiest, cleanest, simplest change that is incredibly easy to revert at any time.

We've gone back and forth about a lot of skills, and each time you've had really compelling fundamental points beyond thematics as to why an alternative would be better. That doesn't exist here, i'm sorry. Not if Stamden is getting anything in the very near future. I'm not comfortable with Stamden rotting away for another year so you can feel good about having a frost skill.

amen to this! makes complete sense, easy as in terms of coding and gives us the crit buff. What @ESO_Nightingale suggests doesnt give us that crit buff.....so 2 pages of back and forth when this is all that needs to happen, done and dusted.

And to add to this, WHY should Magden be frost yet Stamden cant be? says who? Stamsorc uses lightning, DK's share fire, etc. Just silly to think that one concept should be held ransom by a class.

i have suggested a solution to glacial in this thread. and by the same logic, should magdk get poison and magcro get disease? no. stamden has damage identity with bleeds. and it should be further improved on. besides, dk and sorc have differing playstyles that have unique skills suited to them. warden would absolutely have none of that, with this change.

but you say it all in your sig.................... "Let's make frost better for everyone!"

at the time i wrote it, it specifically meant to use and to fight against. not "lets give everyone access to frost"

I will say this, and have often wondered...why do the NPC's in the game that use frost spells hit like trucks and yet frost for Wardens is like melting ice cream? Seems odd, so yea, I agree that frost needs to hit harder, i mean its a frozen snowball to the face and those hurt!

yeah frost mage npcs have interesting skills. i want a better version of winter's reach. i'll include my document describing AB4.0 because it would legit be the best thing for magden's playstyle as it links both deep fissure and northern storm. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n68B7D2Zna4NNcDCiPp1zYmJP4KDh3n-PsRAI80RLnM/edit?usp=sharing

i'm now actually thinking about designing a stamden specific skill that would be really defining to them and specifically more useful in pve because i do want them to be more unique.

Chaos2088

Yep make frost damage a proper end game thing. Please rework of forst destro staff and warden stuff

lucky_Sage

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

They should make the ice tree the dmg skill line

I don't think they would go that far. The best we can do in reguards to getting frost damage skills, is ask for the animal companions skills change.

On stamden Beatles feels nice but for a magden it just feels aweful and same with cliff racer it just doesn’t feel nice to use

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

yeah frost mage npcs have interesting skills. i want a better version of winter's reach. i'll include my document describing AB4.0 because it would legit be the best thing for magden's playstyle as it links both deep fissure and northern storm. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n68B7D2Zna4NNcDCiPp1zYmJP4KDh3n-PsRAI80RLnM/edit?usp=sharing

i'm now actually thinking about designing a stamden specific skill that would be really defining to them and specifically more useful in pve because i do want them to be more unique.

Again, I like the idealism of redesigning skills to fit Stamden, but that's going to be way down the road. These performance changes are going to be the focus for quite a while. We've now seen three major patches this year and this was the first time community suggestions have seen some life beyond passives, and they were all very small-scale. Asking for a wholesale redesign of skills to meet "thematic reasons" right now isn't happening.

As I said before, letting Stamden rot in the cellar for another year because Magdens might get tilted they don't have a stranglehold on frost damage until a full rework comes through is just terrible logic for not making the change.

Joxer61

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

yeah frost mage npcs have interesting skills. i want a better version of winter's reach. i'll include my document describing AB4.0 because it would legit be the best thing for magden's playstyle as it links both deep fissure and northern storm. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n68B7D2Zna4NNcDCiPp1zYmJP4KDh3n-PsRAI80RLnM/edit?usp=sharing

i'm now actually thinking about designing a stamden specific skill that would be really defining to them and specifically more useful in pve because i do want them to be more unique.

Again, I like the idealism of redesigning skills to fit Stamden, but that's going to be way down the road. These performance changes are going to be the focus for quite a while. We've now seen three major patches this year and this was the first time community suggestions have seen some life beyond passives, and they were all very small-scale. Asking for a wholesale redesign of skills to meet "thematic reasons" right now isn't happening.

As I said before, letting Stamden rot in the cellar for another year because Magdens might get tilted they don't have a stranglehold on frost damage until a full rework comes through is just terrible logic for not making the change.

nailed it........

Nemesis7884

I just feel the combat team wastes to much time turning in circles without ever really progressing or adressing the big things like class identity and power fantasy, cp points etc....

nerf blood spawn
buff blood spawn
nerf blood spawn

its just all such a huge waste of time that leads nowhere

zos is simply wasting their very limited resources

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

yeah frost mage npcs have interesting skills. i want a better version of winter's reach. i'll include my document describing AB4.0 because it would legit be the best thing for magden's playstyle as it links both deep fissure and northern storm. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n68B7D2Zna4NNcDCiPp1zYmJP4KDh3n-PsRAI80RLnM/edit?usp=sharing

i'm now actually thinking about designing a stamden specific skill that would be really defining to them and specifically more useful in pve because i do want them to be more unique.

Again, I like the idealism of redesigning skills to fit Stamden, but that's going to be way down the road. These performance changes are going to be the focus for quite a while. We've now seen three major patches this year and this was the first time community suggestions have seen some life beyond passives, and they were all very small-scale. Asking for a wholesale redesign of skills to meet "thematic reasons" right now isn't happening.

As I said before, letting Stamden rot in the cellar for another year because Magdens might get tilted they don't have a stranglehold on frost damage until a full rework comes through is just terrible logic for not making the change.

We don't know when they would do that tbh. We don't know if it would be a year or next patch. They said they weren't going to do big reworks this patch but stamsorc just got crystal weapon. The truth is. We just can't put a date on anything or rule anything out.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Ne need to change animation just reskin the animal to be ice themed like a polar bear as the magicka morph for the bear, that way the warden do keep the nature theme but gain ice damage

ESO_Nightingale

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Ne need to change animation just reskin the animal to be ice themed like a polar bear as the magicka morph for the bear, that way the warden do keep the nature theme but gain ice damage

all they really need to do is add an icy effect to about or 4 skills and change the damage type.

Wolf81

I mean you could probably work winterborn set into a magden or so it gets a slight buff on ptr. Not sure what would pair with it currently...I still use necropotence on my magden, probably still will after ptr.
Winterborn:
Increased the damage of this set to 7400, up from 6020.
Removed the proc chance from this set. Now when you deal frost damage, you summon an ice pillar that deals 7400 frost damage to all enemies in a 3 meter radius. The ice pillar persists for 2 seconds and reduces the movement speed of all enemies within the radius by 50%. This effect can only occur once every 6 seconds.
Increased the cooldown from 6 seconds, up from the hidden 4 second cooldown, which is now also properly mentioned on the tooltip.
Reduced the snare potency to 50%, down from 60%.
Fixed an issue where the snare was removed immediately after leaving the area, rather than lingering for a short duration.

ESO_Nightingale

Wolf81 wrote: »

I mean you could probably work winterborn set into a magden or so it gets a slight buff on ptr. Not sure what would pair with it currently...I still use necropotence on my magden, probably still will after ptr.
Winterborn:
Increased the damage of this set to 7400, up from 6020.
Removed the proc chance from this set. Now when you deal frost damage, you summon an ice pillar that deals 7400 frost damage to all enemies in a 3 meter radius. The ice pillar persists for 2 seconds and reduces the movement speed of all enemies within the radius by 50%. This effect can only occur once every 6 seconds.
Increased the cooldown from 6 seconds, up from the hidden 4 second cooldown, which is now also properly mentioned on the tooltip.
Reduced the snare potency to 50%, down from 60%.
Fixed an issue where the snare was removed immediately after leaving the area, rather than lingering for a short duration.

proc sets aren't damage skills though.

validifyedneb18_ESO

More frost based damage the better for sure, always fun to build around the element of each class