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War Machine and Master Architect

Alidel
Alidel
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I was one of the weirdos, that did use both sets on nightblades and wardens, but after the change it seems to be worthless for dd now. Lets look at some numbers. Nightblade's death stroke costs 70 ultimate, if we ignore passives this number can be generated over ~23 seconds. Right now set gives you major slayer for 10 seconds, so pure spherical uptime without passives should look like 43%. After changes 70 ultimate will give us 5 second duration, so that's roughly 22% uptime. Alright, but set now works with pricey ulti as well, so lets do some more math! Elemental storm costs 250 ultimate that can be generated over ~83 seconds and using it will give us buff for 17 seconds. That equates to 20% uptime. Overall I can't see why anyone (except probably healers, as cap was increased) would want to use these sets.
  • colossalvoids
    colossalvoids
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    Should have increased the player cap but don't touch time attached as it basically killed already almost not used sets now for dd's, one more nail into diversity coffin.
  • Aznarb
    Aznarb
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    Was happy at 1st and sad at second read.
    I though the buff duration was 10sec + 1sec / 14ult and that would be very cool.
    But since we don't have the 10sec at base, even as healer I don't think it's worth uptime to low, we will need at least 3-4 player using it to have a decent uptime.

    So, I don't know, I understand that the buff is very strong and they've nerf every set that easily give those buff (olo, tooth, roaring, etc..). I pretty much agree with that, look less braindead to stack insanely strong buff. Now we will have to choose.

    But, in an other hand, they gonna release a set that increase crit power of all group way to much with Elemental Catalyst.
    So that really contradictory with what they try to do u_u

    [ PC EU ]

    [ Khuram-dar ]
    [ Khajiit ]
    [ Templar - Healer ]
    [Crazy Gatherer & Compulsive Thief]

  • Nemesis7884
    Nemesis7884
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    I think it should last longer for higher ult cost ultimates but at the same time would define the existing duration as minimum duration for any ult....otherwise an underused set gets used even less
  • Maulkin
    Maulkin
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    A very niche set, used only infrequently by magblades in 4-man content, now becomes trash.
    EU | PC | AD
  • zvavi
    zvavi
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    I think it should last longer for higher ult cost ultimates but at the same time would define the existing duration as minimum duration for any ult....otherwise an underused set gets used even less

    Don't need to test, it wasn't used much when it had 43% for total of 3 people (even though patch notes indicate that it was for 4???)it wasn't used much by dds other than off meta builds, for now uptime will be 22%~ for 6 people total (lol) so essentially butchering the set for dungeons, and making it the same for trials (nobody runs it). They should really make it 1 second per 10 ultimate to at least bring it to 32%~ uptime.
    Edited by zvavi on July 14, 2020 9:57AM
  • Choucroute
    Choucroute
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    Aznarb wrote: »
    Was happy at 1st and sad at second read.
    I though the buff duration was 10sec + 1sec / 14ult and that would be very cool.
    But since we don't have the 10sec at base, even as healer I don't think it's worth uptime to low, we will need at least 3-4 player using it to have a decent uptime.
    I like your idea !
    They could also keep the 5s base duration they want to do, and with that +1s per 14 ulti used people with cheap ultis would reach our current 10s duration.
    And if, for example, a healer wants to use Horn with this, it'd be 5s + 17.8 (so 18), so a total of 23s. Which is fair, really. 32s if you use Jorvuld.
    Although if you wanna build to 500 ulti it's 41s duration, and almost a full minute with Jorvuld... :P Probably why they wouldn't do something like this, I suppose :(
  • Aznarb
    Aznarb
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    Choucroute wrote: »
    Aznarb wrote: »
    Was happy at 1st and sad at second read.
    I though the buff duration was 10sec + 1sec / 14ult and that would be very cool.
    But since we don't have the 10sec at base, even as healer I don't think it's worth uptime to low, we will need at least 3-4 player using it to have a decent uptime.
    I like your idea !
    They could also keep the 5s base duration they want to do, and with that +1s per 14 ulti used people with cheap ultis would reach our current 10s duration.
    And if, for example, a healer wants to use Horn with this, it'd be 5s + 17.8 (so 18), so a total of 23s. Which is fair, really. 32s if you use Jorvuld.
    Although if you wanna build to 500 ulti it's 41s duration, and almost a full minute with Jorvuld... :P Probably why they wouldn't do something like this, I suppose :(

    Yup.
    When you read the patch the 1st thing you see from Zos, is they want to lower the cheese DPS we get because of how easy strong buff are availlable (olo, lokk, jorvul(to extend), WM/MA, the new Roaring set, etc.).

    I'm really good with these change, I don't mind to adapt, it's like this on every mmorpg, at one point you've to fix power creep a bit before it become to stupid (look at how it is since greymoor... so much cheese build..)

    I wouldn't mind a meta where everyone (that include DPS player) have to bring a set that help the team. It would be healthier for the game imho.
    So DPS will do some lower parse alone but way higher in group.
    That how a mmorpg sound to me.
    Edited by Aznarb on July 14, 2020 1:23PM
    [ PC EU ]

    [ Khuram-dar ]
    [ Khajiit ]
    [ Templar - Healer ]
    [Crazy Gatherer & Compulsive Thief]

  • ThePedge
    ThePedge
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    Was nice to have in 4 man content with a NB/Warden/Templar to give burst damage.

    It also only used to do 2 allies, not 3. Unless it was a typo or bugged.

    But now you would need it on more than one player which is worse than just all running selfish sets.
  • Faulgor
    Faulgor
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    Aznarb wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind a meta where everyone (that include DPS player) have to bring a set that help the team. It would be healthier for the game imho.
    So DPS will do some lower parse alone but way higher in group.
    That how a mmorpg sound to me.
    We used to have that before they nerfed Sunderflame/Night Mother's Gaze a millennia ago. I hope sets like Elemental Catalyst are a step back in that direction.
    Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • MopeyHat
    MopeyHat
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    It's half the uptime but for twice the players. In trials with one player wearing the set, I would say the sets are of equivalent or event better power, since they now have a better chance of buffing your hardest hitters.
  • kojou
    kojou
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    IMO, It needs a minimum duration equal to what the duration is on live, but add an increase to the duration based on cost of the ultimate.

    I'm wondering if this is to make the new set "Roaring Opportunity Lost" look better, so we will run that trial.
    Playing since beta...
  • ThePedge
    ThePedge
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    kojou wrote: »
    IMO, It needs a minimum duration equal to what the duration is on live, but add an increase to the duration based on cost of the ultimate.

    I'm wondering if this is to make the new set "Roaring Opportunity Lost" look better, so we will run that trial.

    They nerfed RO too, only applies to 6 total.
    Basically killed all the sets because the downtime and investment needed is more than you would gain.

    Multiple wearers chaining big ults like Destro or Colossus would give good uptime, but then they're sacrificing a set each.
  • JinMori
    JinMori
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    I did not notice that honestly, that's really bad.

    I made a thread about how there are a lot of good things in this patch, but i might have to take it back. There are good things but also really bad as usual.
  • Kolzki
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    Collossus rotations seem like an good use of it. We’d consistently get at least 16 seconds of up time for 5 dds every 20 seconds and it would only need 3 people to wear it.
  • carlos424
    carlos424
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    ThePedge wrote: »
    kojou wrote: »
    IMO, It needs a minimum duration equal to what the duration is on live, but add an increase to the duration based on cost of the ultimate.

    I'm wondering if this is to make the new set "Roaring Opportunity Lost" look better, so we will run that trial.

    They nerfed RO too, only applies to 6 total.
    Basically killed all the sets because the downtime and investment needed is more than you would gain.

    Multiple wearers chaining big ults like Destro or Colossus would give good uptime, but then they're sacrificing a set each.

    How about a healer wearing architect and jorvulds using warhorn?
  • IonicKai
    IonicKai
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    Low key I think the play is that major slayer is now a burst design like major vuln. It's annoying that it means cros become even more of a buff bot but it makes the most sense given the change and that they regularly build up and drop a high cost ult like clock work.
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    Kolzki wrote: »
    Collossus rotations seem like an good use of it. We’d consistently get at least 16 seconds of up time for 5 dds every 20 seconds and it would only need 3 people to wear it.

    Yep exactly this. All they did was shift the Slayer buff role from Nightblades to Necros. The group gain per user is almost exactly the same in trials (where there are 6 DPS to receive the buff, the higher cap doesn’t help in dungeons with 2-3 DPS).

    Basically it now gives 16s of Slayer to 6/8 DPS every 20s with a colossus, which averages 60% uptime across all 8 DPS, with 3 Necros using the set, so each buff set gives 20% average uptime across 8 DPS.

    Before it was 2 Nightblades providing 10s of slayer to 3 DPS each (including themselves) with a cooldown of about 20s, which resulted in 37.5% average uptime across 8 DPS, so each buff set gave average 18.75% uptime to each DPS in group.

    I prefer the new way because with the old version you couldn’t easily run 3 buff sets in most content (need 9 DPS for 3 stacks of 3). And trying to coordinate timing to have 2 users in one stack was nearly impossible.

    I would like the new version even better if it could give the buff to the user and 7-8 allies, even if that meant that the duration was reduced from 1/14 the ult spent to 1/18 the ult spent.
  • Luckylancer
    Luckylancer
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    Devs should calculate an average ultimate per second and this set should have ~30-40% up time for this to be balanced. But old one promoted build diversity and it was nice niche. Old obes bad side was whole trial was full pf thrash sets for most players.
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    Devs should calculate an average ultimate per second and this set should have ~30-40% up time for this to be balanced. But old one promoted build diversity and it was nice niche. Old obes bad side was whole trial was full pf thrash sets for most players.

    Average ultimate per second is around 3.4 on most classes. This goes up to 4 ult/s with Minor Heroism potions, but those are expensive and require other sacrifices to be made in a build so I’d balance around the 3.4.

    With 3.4 ult/s this set gives about 25% uptime to the user. Seems fine IMO, but the thing dragging it down is that 2/8 DPS in a trial group will not get the Slayer, so average uptimes across the whole group end up lower.
  • FrancisCrawford
    FrancisCrawford
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    Alidel wrote: »
    I was one of the weirdos, that did use both sets on nightblades and wardens, but after the change it seems to be worthless for dd now. Lets look at some numbers. Nightblade's death stroke costs 70 ultimate, if we ignore passives this number can be generated over ~23 seconds. Right now set gives you major slayer for 10 seconds, so pure spherical uptime without passives should look like 43%. After changes 70 ultimate will give us 5 second duration, so that's roughly 22% uptime. Alright, but set now works with pricey ulti as well, so lets do some more math! Elemental storm costs 250 ultimate that can be generated over ~83 seconds and using it will give us buff for 17 seconds. That equates to 20% uptime. Overall I can't see why anyone (except probably healers, as cap was increased) would want to use these sets.

    20% uptime for a buff that increases DPS of affected players by around 10%. (I'm sure 10% is roughly right, but I haven't a clue as to whether it's a little high or a little low.)

    So basically that's a 2% DPS increase for affected players. If you're in a dungeon with 2 1/2 or so damage dealers, that feels meh but not horrible for a single-barrable set. In a large group it seems that it could be quite good, and of course it's boosted a bit by the fact that it naturally kicks in when an ultiimate has been used.

    I do hope that the duration is measured in fractions and not just whole numbers of seconds.
  • Stx
    Stx
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    I enjoyed war machine on my stamplar tank build in dungeons using empowering sweep and bloodspawn.

    They nerfed empowering sweep..

    They nerfed bloodspawn...

    Now they are nerfing these sets..

    Sucks.
  • RusevCrush
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    I also miss the days of set coordination for dds. Im in sunder your in nmg shes in morag. Now we're all in lokke. Way less interesting imo
  • Aznarb
    Aznarb
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    RusevCrush wrote: »
    I also miss the days of set coordination for dds. Im in sunder your in nmg shes in morag. Now we're all in lokke. Way less interesting imo

    Yup that my though to. They have made to much OP selfish set for dps.
    I wish they bring back set that need everyone to put some set for the group dps and not just for personal dps.
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    [ Khuram-dar ]
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    [ Templar - Healer ]
    [Crazy Gatherer & Compulsive Thief]

  • bharathitman
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    I have a slightly different take on this. IMO the changes make WM and especially MA a great set to use on all magicka classes, and especially stronger on necro DDs and supports.
    Sure, if you consider average major slayer uptime over the course of a long fight then mathematically it's a nerf. But practically speaking this can be used as a burst set in dungeons and trials (especially in trash fights)
    1. A Destro drop at 250 would give 17 seconds of Major Slayer, and 35 when ulti is at 500. This is enough to burst many bosses in dungeon
    2. Necros can easily gain more ulti with Necrotic Potency and can frequently drop their colossus at 300+ ulti thus giving groups 20 - 35 seconds of major slayer uptime
    3. Supports can potentially combine this with Jorvulds for a total of 50 seconds of major slayer
    4. In trials you can co-ordinate a horn and another ulti to potentially give all your DDs major slayer for 17+ seconds before each trash fight
    5. You can also prebuff your group with Major Slayer and then switch sets if you are on a PC with add-ons
    Edited by bharathitman on July 15, 2020 11:30AM
  • Jodynn
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    Make it a 5 second base + 1 sec with max duration of 20 to keep it's power for low cost ults but also inspire other classes to use it but not do ridiculous ***.

    While they're at it give a perfected version to have an extra 5 stat.
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
    The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
  • Aznarb
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    I have a slightly different take on this. IMO the changes make WM and especially MA a great set to use on all magicka classes, and especially stronger on necro DDs and supports.
    Sure, if you consider average major slayer uptime over the course of a long fight then mathematically it's a nerf. But practically speaking this can be used as a burst set in dungeons and trials (especially in trash fights)
    1. A Destro drop at 250 would give 17 seconds of Major Slayer, and 35 when ulti is at 500. This is enough to burst many bosses in dungeon
    2. Necros can easily gain more ulti with Necrotic Potency and can frequently drop their colossus at 300+ ulti thus giving groups 20 - 35 seconds of major slayer uptime
    3. Supports can potentially combine this with Jorvulds for a total of 50 seconds of major slayer
    4. In trials you can co-ordinate a horn and another ulti to potentially give all your DDs major slayer for 17+ seconds before each trash fight
    5. You can also prebuff your group with Major Slayer and then switch sets if you are on a PC with add-ons

    I'm pretty sur Jorvuld would only buff the base fixed duration.
    [ PC EU ]

    [ Khuram-dar ]
    [ Khajiit ]
    [ Templar - Healer ]
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  • Maulkin
    Maulkin
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    Early prediction here, but I reckon with the next PTS iterations they'll sort out Alkosh for what they intend to achieve (make it a DPS set instead of Tank while also buffing the armor shred significantly) and we'll see the current meta of 3 MagNecros change to:

    1 x MagNecro with MA + Elemental Catalyst
    1 x StamNecro with WM + Alkosh
    1 x Flex (Stam/Mag with MA/WM + parse set)

    Separately to this, the meta of 1xMagSorc might collapse with the nerfs to Crystal Frag damage and the creation of Crystal Weapon morph. Previously StamSorcs wouldn't use any Dark Magic skill, so they couldn't proc the Exploitation passive and grant Minor Prophecy to the group. However now they will be able to and they are also likely to be higher parsers than MagSorcs given the direction of buffs/nerfs this patch. If the Alkosh changes lead to +7k armor shred, that frees 61 cps for stam builds like StamSorcs to invest elsewhere.
    Edited by Maulkin on July 16, 2020 2:26PM
    EU | PC | AD
  • karekiz
    karekiz
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    Maulkin wrote: »
    Early prediction here, but I reckon with the next PTS iterations they'll sort out Alkosh for what they intend to achieve (make it a DPS set

    I wish the devs would just make Alkosh proc do more damage on a parse then Aegis Caller. Aegis Call with a debuff isn't too terrible.
  • Maulkin
    Maulkin
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    karekiz wrote: »
    Maulkin wrote: »
    Early prediction here, but I reckon with the next PTS iterations they'll sort out Alkosh for what they intend to achieve (make it a DPS set

    I wish the devs would just make Alkosh proc do more damage on a parse then Aegis Caller. Aegis Call with a debuff isn't too terrible.

    First off, I believe Alkosh on PTS is already the higher parsing of the two on a dummy that isn't debuffed. You're likely just comparing the damage of the procs without considering the armor shred's impact to the rest of your dps.

    Secondly, you can't have set that has both debuff + proc damage... do more proc dmg than other sets that do only proc dmg without any debuffs. What would the point of the other sets be then? In fact consider yourself lucky that it even does any damage at all. Other debuff sets like Martial Knowledge or Z'en don't have any built-in proc damage at all.
    EU | PC | AD
  • JinMori
    JinMori
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    I really do not like how they changed this set, they basically went completely the other way i would have liked to, i did make a suggestion of making the duration scale on ulti used, but it was because i wanted a higher uptime with equal spread or less, not more spread with less uptime.
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