WHY remove dice rolls for procs??? The cornerstone of exciting gameplay in every game since D&D...

ItMustBeThursday

Reading through these patch notes was like reading an [snip]

I work in IT, with a focus on database technology, and what I see here, is a development team [snip]

This is crazy!

The proc chance, those dice rolls are in every complex RPG since dungeons and dragons. I'll give an example of why this is incredibly short sighted.

On a magblade gank build circa 2018, I might run up to a player cloaked, while wearing caluurions and a dmg or pen set, with Zaan's.
Hit them with Concealed wep.

If i get lucky, my caluurions procs off the crit hit, and I have to finish them off.

If I get really lucky my Zaan's procs, my caluurions procs, person dies when I sneeze at them.
and it FEELS GREAT! Exciting, not knowing what's going to happen, planning for counterplay and next moves if it doesn't fire. These are all core parts of what makes tactical PVP gameplay fun.

Now, after this update, if I wear a no proc chance monster set, and caluurions, and I dont know, another proc set? I could basically hit any player with killing blows every 10-15 seconds without fail. All I have to do is contact them and I know my hits are going through. A stunned player is doomed.

This is the ultimate dumbing down of the game engine, and yet another step towards assigning this game [snip]

I, and many of my friends are already struggling to stay invested in ESO, with each update more of them leave. This is a crazy change to gameplay, and should be reconsidered immediately./

[Edited to remove Bashing]

Red_Feather

It is the best change of the update. Every set with a guaranteed trigger now works in any content. Not just boss fights and pvp.

ItMustBeThursday

Red_Feather wrote: »

It is the best change of the update. Every set with a guaranteed trigger now works in any content. Not just boss fights and pvp.

"With a guaranteed trigger"

That's just the point, they weren't guaranteed before. It was fun, you didn't know that EVERY 10 seconds your skill was going to fire, you had to work within the confines of risk and chance.

[snip] to fix a silly problem. (Poor performance)

[Edited to remove Bashing]

SolidusPrime

Red_Feather wrote: »

It is the best change of the update. Every set with a guaranteed trigger now works in any content. Not just boss fights and pvp.

I agree, best part of the update. Sets like Red Mountain are much more reliable now.

ItMustBeThursday

SolidusPrime wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

It is the best change of the update. Every set with a guaranteed trigger now works in any content. Not just boss fights and pvp.

I agree, best part of the update. Sets like Red Mountain are much more reliable now.

Thing is, in a PVE boss fight, those percentages DO equal VERY close to the same rate of a guaranteed no proc chance skill because of the math involved.

This isn't going to substantially affect a lot of sets, except the ones with really obnoxiously specific procs, like "10% on Crit damage only".

What this is going to affect is PVP and shorter PVE fights. It will make everything timing based instead of chance based. That's brutally insane for the reason I described, a NB cloaked with triple proc sets against anyone not in a ton of mitigation is going to be dead in seconds.

Similarly, what is a zerg going to look like with stuff like Imperium being a guaranteed proc.

Red_Feather

You make a good point with the zerg all timing the stacking of guaranteed procs. I wonder how that'll play out.

ItMustBeThursday

A friend of mine, upon reading these notes, offered a suggestion that I think would also solve these performance problems.

Why don't you just auto-resolve combat, ZOS. If you're going to go down this road this severely. What's the point of actually engaging in combat. I could make a team all wearing the same two sets that proc based on incoming damage, one for healing, one for damage.

And then we could just walk into a group, stand together and let our gear kill them and heal us.

Good show

xXMeowMeowXx

Apply for job with ZOS to work on ESO if you have the fix for performance.

Once they know you can fix everything they will hire you ASAP.

ItMustBeThursday

xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »

Apply for job with ZOS to work on ESO if you have the fix for performance.

Once they know you can fix everything they will hire you ASAP.

That sort of ignores the point I'm trying to make.

Rather than properly and intelligently employing their resources to increasing their performance capacity, they're removing critical features of not just this game, but almost all games in this genre. It's a huge part of what makes them fun, the game isn't supposed to be set it and forget it. It's supposed to be a fun challenge, there should be uncertainty.

Nirntrotter

I'm glad to see the uncertainty go from these sets, but I'll hold judgement until it's live.

Tommy_The_Gun

Red_Feather wrote: »

It is the best change of the update. Every set with a guaranteed trigger now works in any content. Not just boss fights and pvp.

Part of me thinks that the removal of proc chance...
...will increase the popularity of proc sets by "a lot"...

More people using them = more server lag.

ZOS is removing % chance to reduce server stress, but if you will have 90% jump in players using those sets, overall it will cause more lag vs what we have now...

ItMustBeThursday

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

It is the best change of the update. Every set with a guaranteed trigger now works in any content. Not just boss fights and pvp.

Part of me thinks that the removal of proc chance...
...will increase the popularity of proc sets by "a lot"...

More people using them = more server lag.

ZOS is removing % chance to reduce server stress, but if you will have 90% jump in players using those sets, overall it will cause more lag vs what we have now...

Also a totally valid point, personally 90% of the time I prefer to run traditional sets in PVP, stuff like spinners and crafty alfiq. But it will be a proc game in PVP now, or no game at all.

I am sort of amazed that the graphical resource implications of dozens of visual procs going off in PVP is less than the resources consumed by calculating some fairly basic math problems.

Kiralyn2000

Proc chances? "Cornerstone of exciting gameplay"?


What?

ForzaRammer

zos under powered server can't handle the rng, plain and simple,
next step, remove crystal frag rng proc too, change it to every 6 seconds in combat

newtinmpls

ItMustBeThursday wrote: »

I work in IT, with a focus on database technology, and what I see here, is a development team so incapable of resolving their performance issues that they are removing critical aspects of the system in order to band-aid the problem.

Your insightful comment surprises no one who has played this game more than a month.

I personally miss softcaps, but that's a ship that sailed a LONG time agon.

ItMustBeThursday

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Proc chances? "Cornerstone of exciting gameplay"?


What?

The risk involved in a dice roll is a big part of whats fun in a lot of these proc based mechanics. What would D&D be w/o dice roles? The mechanics in most games like this are based directly on Dungeons and Dragons. But now there's no more surprises, you always know what's going to happen and when(if you're paying attention).

Within weeks there will be legions of addons with timers for your skills, likely that share the timers to your teammates, so PVP groups can sync up their procs and ensure they hit people one after the other.

ItMustBeThursday

ForzaRammer wrote: »

zos under powered server can't handle the rng, plain and simple,
next step, remove crystal frag rng proc too, change it to every 6 seconds in combat

Thats EXACTLY right.!!! Instead of paying to upgrade their architecture, they're taking out key aspects of gameplay. It is mind blowing and why I see this as a signal that they are unwilling to invest in the game as much as a development team with this many active players should.

ItMustBeThursday

Does anyone remember when they thought putting a 1s cast time on all shields was a good idea?

This idea is just as dumb.

Just saying.

ForzaRammer

ItMustBeThursday wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

zos under powered server can't handle the rng, plain and simple,
next step, remove crystal frag rng proc too, change it to every 6 seconds in combat

Thats EXACTLY right.!!! Instead of paying to upgrade their architecture, they're taking out key aspects of gameplay. It is mind blowing and why I see this as a signal that they are unwilling to invest in the game as much as a development team with this many active players should.

if it actually reduce lags, so be it, at least the pve is not hurt by it a whole lot

Guyle

This is all just silly, I thought everyone knew by this point in time that addons are the source of every problem in ESO

mairwen85

ItMustBeThursday wrote: »

Does anyone remember when they thought putting a 1s cast time on all shields was a good idea?

This idea is just as dumb.

Just saying.

I can't wait for procageddon/a-procalypse(?). We had one before and for a few weeks the well of tears was overflowing. It was glorious. It will be again...

Seriously though, enjoy it while it lasts because in a few months after this goes live, they'll swing it back the other direction.

ItMustBeThursday

Red_Feather wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

LOL Maybe. But generally if ZoS sees that their intended mistakes(changes) are going to radically, and negatively impact gameplay, they have been known to revert them before live. It's important to voice your opinion.

ItMustBeThursday

mairwen85 wrote: »

ItMustBeThursday wrote: »

Does anyone remember when they thought putting a 1s cast time on all shields was a good idea?

This idea is just as dumb.

Just saying.

I can't wait for procageddon/a-procalypse(?). We had one before and for a few weeks the well of tears was overflowing. It was glorious. It will be again...

Yeah, that was a LOT of fun for those of us in Sloads, but the bulk of the population lost their minds, as evidenced by the nearly endless stream of hate messages you'd get while wearing any of those sets(but especially sloads)

AmoralOne

RIP Proc sets. Good riddance.

Remember Velidreth, Viper days? Lol those were something

ItMustBeThursday

DTAmoral wrote: »

RIP Proc sets. Good riddance.

Remember Velidreth, Viper days? Lol those were something

RIP? They are reinvigorating them in the worst way.

This will be a proc set meta like we have never before seen.

Before it was a few crazy overpowered proc sets, that procced too often, or too reliably and had to get nerfed into the ground.

Now every set has the potential to be like that if someone uses it right.

haelene

I don't find proc sets to be "the cornerstone of exciting gameplay" in action games. In slower, more tactics focused games, sure, but I'd wager that the average player in this (and many other action games) doesn't even necessarily notice a proc when it happens.

ItMustBeThursday

haelene wrote: »

I don't find proc sets to be "the cornerstone of exciting gameplay" in action games. In slower, more tactics focused games, sure, but I'd wager that the average player in this (and many other action games) doesn't even necessarily notice a proc when it happens.

I don't consider proc sets to be the cornerstone, but chance based results are.

Katahdin

yea its really exciting when armor kills you and not what the player actually did

haelene

ItMustBeThursday wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

I don't find proc sets to be "the cornerstone of exciting gameplay" in action games. In slower, more tactics focused games, sure, but I'd wager that the average player in this (and many other action games) doesn't even necessarily notice a proc when it happens.

I don't consider proc sets to be the cornerstone, but chance based results are.

I disagree. Again, I'd wager most people don't even think about or engage with dice rolls in action games. This isn't D&D. The fast paced nature of it means most people don't even notice dice rolls happening, let alone find it exciting.

mairwen85

Katahdin wrote: »

yea its really exciting when armor kills you and not what the player actually did

You're missing the point of OP. With proc chance removed, there are more cases now where your complaint is guaranteed.

ItMustBeThursday

haelene wrote: »

ItMustBeThursday wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

I don't find proc sets to be "the cornerstone of exciting gameplay" in action games. In slower, more tactics focused games, sure, but I'd wager that the average player in this (and many other action games) doesn't even necessarily notice a proc when it happens.

I don't consider proc sets to be the cornerstone, but chance based results are.

I disagree. Again, I'd wager most people don't even think about or engage with dice rolls in action games. This isn't D&D. The fast paced nature of it means most people don't even notice dice rolls happening, let alone find it exciting.

This is one of those changes that won't fully be appreciated for its insanity until it goes live and you walk into pvp and 20 people proc the same stuff on your head at a pre-determined interval, with laser precision.