Ballgroup cyrodill infestation

technohic

esotoon wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

What do you think they are talking about with that? Think they clearly are referring to ball groups and how there are more now, and no longer just 12 people but 24 man raids are adopting the strategy.

You are missing the point. Zos implemented the systems and mechanics that allow that kind of group to flourish. They continued to leave those systems in place and made them worse by adding new sets constantly to the game that made things worse. They knew the servers weren't up to it. They knew it made the game unbalanced. They knew it wasn't what they intended but allowed it to continue on anyway.

But instead of being mad at ZOS, you are mad at the ball groups, even though they are simply running in the most optimal set ups based on the systems and mechanics that ZOS themselves implemented and allowed to happen.

I've been mad at ZOS for quite some time. Especially as it goes with constantly adding sets and balancing that honestly favor that sort if play. When they seem to always be trying to hit ball groups with Rapids nerfs, whatever the hell they were doing with healing when they upped RR while nerfing other heals, it the blanket increase in healing reduction that hits individuals a lot more than over healed ball groups, just to name a few.

[snpi] I think the tactics used by ball groups however; were the opposite. Use roots and stun combos that they know have issues breaking free of either ket alone both, and knowing the conditions causing it are generated very much by their play style. Particularly ones that escalated it by bringing even more people in to gi from 12 man to 24 or even more. Some of the same people who used to be right there with me, upset by what a PUG wrangler was doing to the server striving to run 100 players stacked.

I can be mad at both the [snip] as well as people who take advantage of it with the only excuse being someone else's [snip] enabling them.

[Edit for Bashing.]

esotoon

technohic wrote: »

I can be mad at both the incompetent as well as people who take advantage of it with the only excuse being someone else's incompetence enabling them.

That's fair enough, and I can respect that.

My initial comment though that you replied to, was aimed squarely at somebody who's only takeaway from todays post seemed to be "Look! See I told you ball groups were to blame!", whilst ignoring (to me) the far, far bigger issues and failures that lie at the heart of the problem being admitted to by ZOS themselves. So I apologise that when I read your reply I assumed you were of the same mindset.

Crash427

People who don't understand how ballgroups work seem to have all the answers on how to fix them. Clamping down on AOEs will just reward zerging more.

And a 24 person group isn't a ballgroup, it's a zerg. It is incredibly annoying and painful to play against now that those large groups have adopted ballgroup tactics, but I blame ZoS. Those tactics are chosen because they are the most effective in the game as it is. So either you play into what the game gives you, or you try and play against it and have to work harder because you put yourself at a disadvantage. I can be mad at those players all I want, but at the end of the day we're all competitive and want to win. The best chance of winning comes from using the most powerful set ups. If those set ups cause problems, that's ZOS' fault, not the players. The players are doing what they should do, use what's available to the best of their ability. The players can't be relied on to self balance in a way that keeps the game working. Many don't even know enough about the game to do so. It's ZOS' job to keep the game working.

Sylosi

Redacted.

red_emu

The thing that annoys me the most about ball groups is the lag they're causing. And please don't say its not true.

Last night we fought at Roe vs a general zerg (about 25AD and 35-40DC) and skills fired, siege didn't say "it's busy". It was playable and we could keep up defence for a long time.

After that battle was over a ball group of maybe 20-24EP arrived at Alesssia with same amount of defenders. Lag was horrid. People kept Rubberbanding like mad.

Not to jump to conclusion but how come, a larger group of DC caused no lag, yet a smaller one in an "organised ball" brought the performance down to unplayable level?

It certainly makes me think, that if ZOS fixed performance without destroying any playstyle people would not complain about ball groups, as they would be able to fight back.

As it stands, it is s not the lack of skill or will fighting organised groups. The game simply can not handle such fights and it always falls in favour of a ball group, making them seem extremely skilled.

Crispen_Longbow

red_emu wrote: »

The thing that annoys me the most about ball groups is the lag they're causing. And please don't say its not true.

Last night we fought at Roe vs a general zerg (about 25AD and 35-40DC) and skills fired, siege didn't say "it's busy". It was playable and we could keep up defence for a long time.

After that battle was over a ball group of maybe 20-24EP arrived at Alesssia with same amount of defenders. Lag was horrid. People kept Rubberbanding like mad.

Not to jump to conclusion but how come, a larger group of DC caused no lag, yet a smaller one in an "organised ball" brought the performance down to unplayable level?

It certainly makes me think, that if ZOS fixed performance without destroying any playstyle people would not complain about ball groups, as they would be able to fight back.

As it stands, it is s not the lack of skill or will fighting organised groups. The game simply can not handle such fights and it always falls in favour of a ball group, making them seem extremely skilled.

The problem is that you think lag is central to one general location. The lag you experience at ROE could have nothing to do with your fights if their is a faction stack fighting at Alessia. It's a megaserver that effects the entire area. You could be at brindle just sitting around and feel the lag from a faction stack at BRK. That's part of the problem there is no instances to load on different servers, everything on the map effects the server. Your client only renders so much of the game which is why you crash when you approach a heavily contested area as it tries to render in all those elements at once and boom you crash. The server is handling all of cyro and it can't handle massive fights.

People think that ball groups cause the lag but in reality it's the entire faction stacking in one locaion to try and take downt he ballgroups that cause the lag. When ball groups fight other ball groups, as long as their isn't a faction stack somewhere else on the map, the game plays fine.

gezginrocker

I deleted ESO about 8 months ago, tonight it suddenly came to my mind and I decided to look at the forum. And I see that nothing has changed. I did quit the game because of the ball group plague and extreme lag. And now I'm realizing how angry this game was making me and how peaceful I have been for the last 8 months.

So my 2 cents, if you are annoyed by ball groups, quit Cyroodil, or ESO itself. I also whined a lot about ball groups at this forum, but they are not gonna go away. Sadly, there are just too many selfish people dedicated to running in circles and ruining the fun for all others.

idk

Icarus42 wrote: »

We all know this, anyone who has PvP'd in cyrodiil. Every time you approach a ballgroup it is like the event horizon of a black hole, and you end up entering a lag infested time warp. It is just hilarious to me how some of these people so vigorously defend this playstyle. Of course I realize that ZoS has put these mechanics into the game and people will use them, my problem is that people actively choose to play this way, which directly or indirectly negatively affects other peoples experience. Of course you can say hey you can just choose to not fight them etc. However that goes out the door when they are inside your main keep running around on the walls farming pugs. With no objective in mind except it seems to be as annoying as possible, or so it seems. We have all experienced this time and again from certain guilds, who dont even try to capture the flags instead they sit upstairs in the keep waiting for pugs to run into their little web of doom. I guess that is fun for them? IDK.

I call BS to all those who defend ballgroups because of this. IMO ballgroups should go on to there own camp and stay there.

Would it make more sense for Zos to figure out how to fix the game instead of blaming players for the issues?

Tammany

Crispen_Longbow wrote: »

People think that ball groups cause the lag but in reality it's the entire faction stacking in one locaion to try and take downt he ballgroups that cause the lag. When ball groups fight other ball groups, as long as their isn't a faction stack somewhere else on the map, the game plays fine.

Thats why during bugged grouping time Cyrodil was in a good shape with everyone being there as always except ballblobs.
Anyway, keep trying to push "nono its not ballgroups" bs, full denial always looks funny.

idk wrote: »

Would it make more sense for Zos to figure out how to fix the game

That's what they are doing atm - getting rid of cancerous gameplay ballgroups represent.
That thing is really entertaining - in every competitive mmorpg "coordinated gameplay" means the same setup as other playersbut with really good coordination, meanwhile in eso "pinnacle of pvp" is a group that abuses heal/shield stacking and spams aoe spells - the very idea of being able to stack multiple layers of one spell is pretty archaic for 2020 year still remains in ESO. The only coodrination you have is wearing the asked set of spells and follow WASD addon with simple "go, stay, go" commands. My parrot executes harder tasks.

gezginrocker wrote: »

So my 2 cents, if you are annoyed by ball groups, quit Cyroodil, or ESO itself.

Fear not my friend, we have made a huge af petition with multiloads of video footage, ballgroup stream and general proofs in june about ballgroup mechanics.
Since developers are about to adress that issue with 3 second aoe cooldown soon (only first stage of tests), there is a real hope this cacerous gameplay can be finally rid off. At least developer has paid an attention and promised to investigate, thats already a lot.

Icarus42

idk wrote: »

Icarus42 wrote: »

We all know this, anyone who has PvP'd in cyrodiil. Every time you approach a ballgroup it is like the event horizon of a black hole, and you end up entering a lag infested time warp. It is just hilarious to me how some of these people so vigorously defend this playstyle. Of course I realize that ZoS has put these mechanics into the game and people will use them, my problem is that people actively choose to play this way, which directly or indirectly negatively affects other peoples experience. Of course you can say hey you can just choose to not fight them etc. However that goes out the door when they are inside your main keep running around on the walls farming pugs. With no objective in mind except it seems to be as annoying as possible, or so it seems. We have all experienced this time and again from certain guilds, who dont even try to capture the flags instead they sit upstairs in the keep waiting for pugs to run into their little web of doom. I guess that is fun for them? IDK.

I call BS to all those who defend ballgroups because of this. IMO ballgroups should go on to there own camp and stay there.

Would it make more sense for Zos to figure out how to fix the game instead of blaming players for the issues?

Icarus42

I highly doubt they will figure out how to fix this broken mess. It has been 5 years of declining performance, one would think they would have figured it out by now. Also the problem is because of this terrible performance and inherently bad game mechanics (at its core in pvp) other players are bound to bash other players for their chosen play style, simply because the "style" they have to choose from is broken in the first place.

We the community have been a constant on these forums for years trying to get ZoS to listen to our concerns so no it makes no sense because there is no sense in any of this. The aoe tests will solve nothing, complaining and blaming also solves nothing. Again moot point.

Icarus42

Icarus42 wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

Icarus42 wrote: »

We all know this, anyone who has PvP'd in cyrodiil. Every time you approach a ballgroup it is like the event horizon of a black hole, and you end up entering a lag infested time warp.

We also all know that numbers of players on the server alone also causes lag, yet the majority of players would all rather line up to join a pop-locked 30day CP campaign, than go to some of the less populated servers. So why only hold ball groups accountable for playing in a manner that is known to "directly or indirectly negatively affects other peoples experience", when everyone playing on the laggier pop locked servers are equally culpable?

At the end of the day, our frustrations should be with ZOS. If we are all honest about it, logically speaking no one should be paying ZOS to play a buggy game that runs on servers that aren't up to the task, but we do. So to justify it, and because ZOS won't fix the issues, we aim our frustrations at each other, and draw up these pretend scenarios of "It's these other players faults, because I'm certainly not to blame", rather than admitting we are all to blame, and holding ZOS accountable.

You have a very good point, and you are correct our gripe should be with ZOS. I guess I am frustrated by what I believe to be the cause of lag in some situations ie. ballgroups. I am only stating these things through personal observation, after facing these groups for years now I have just noticed that the lag is considerably worse when you approach them. You are also correct in saying that zergs can have the same effect. So I suppose my argument is moot, and all we can do is hope they fix the servers. Doesnt seem like this serves any purpose except to gripe about these ballgroups that I imagine are a plague to this game. I am not alone in this idea. It is also a fact that ZOS has created this atmosphere and should therefore be blamed instead of criticizing someones playstyle, I apologize if I offended anyone in the process of this diatribe. It is merely frustration that I was illustrating.

Also please read the thread before quoting stuff that was already addressed, thank you!

Dat

Just in to screenshot all the "ballgroups will die after next patch" I swear we've seen this so many times it laughable. A good coordinated group will find a way to persevere and then you'll find something else to complain about since you STILL wont kill them. Seems like were destined to do this dance forever

red_emu

Dat wrote: »

Just in to screenshot all the "ballgroups will die after next patch" I swear we've seen this so many times it laughable. A good coordinated group will find a way to persevere and then you'll find something else to complain about since you STILL wont kill them. Seems like were destined to do this dance forever

That's not entirely true. If the performance improves in a signifact way, fighting ball groups will be easier. Yes, you still won't win with a ball group on even numbers but there is hope, that the days of a ball group defeating three times their number will be gone.

The truth is, most players now know exactly how to deal with a ball group. People know what skills to throw at them and how to predict their next move.

The reason it is so hard to defeat them now is a 10-30 second lock out of your skills, bar swap bug, spending stamina on roll dodge and break free that doesn't happen, Rubberbanding right back into the middle of their group and server unable to calculate damage being dealt to them.

I guess we will see how it goes. I think it's pretty clear, that ZOS likes the ball group play style and it is here to stay for good. Let's just hope that the gap won't widen so far, that uncoordinated groups of players will have zero counterplay.

Crash427

red_emu wrote: »

Dat wrote: »

Just in to screenshot all the "ballgroups will die after next patch" I swear we've seen this so many times it laughable. A good coordinated group will find a way to persevere and then you'll find something else to complain about since you STILL wont kill them. Seems like were destined to do this dance forever

That's not entirely true. If the performance improves in a signifact way, fighting ball groups will be easier. Yes, you still won't win with a ball group on even numbers but there is hope, that the days of a ball group defeating three times their number will be gone.

The truth is, most players now know exactly how to deal with a ball group. People know what skills to throw at them and how to predict their next move.

The reason it is so hard to defeat them now is a 10-30 second lock out of your skills, bar swap bug, spending stamina on roll dodge and break free that doesn't happen, Rubberbanding right back into the middle of their group and server unable to calculate damage being dealt to them.

I guess we will see how it goes. I think it's pretty clear, that ZOS likes the ball group play style and it is here to stay for good. Let's just hope that the gap won't widen so far, that uncoordinated groups of players will have zero counterplay.

if performance is improved we may get back to the days of ballgroups absolutely dominating. Rollbacks and desyncs are the only things giving pug groups a chance against the small/mid size ballgroups.

xshatox

Dat wrote: »

Just in to screenshot all the "ballgroups will die after next patch" I swear we've seen this so many times it laughable. A good coordinated group will find a way to persevere and then you'll find something else to complain about since you STILL wont kill them. Seems like were destined to do this dance forever

Really?
Long time ago a ball group can wipe zerg several time their size. Right now most of ball group will wipe to pug just barely twice their size. At least that the case on gray host pcna, only few ball ball group left.

Also I find the one that complaint actually those in ball group at least in my guild. Pug/casuals just accept whatever zos throw at them.

mocap

i think nothing will change for them. Heal stacking still exist and most of damage comes from Proxy + VD + ults anyway, so it doesn't really matter all that aoe spam. They already act more like a nukeball, ball of few bombers and ton of healers.

Now ballgroup VS ballgroup is more interesting and i can't imagine the result.

DjinnAeternam

Crash427 wrote: »

if performance is improved we may get back to the days of ballgroups absolutely dominating. Rollbacks and desyncs are the only things giving pug groups a chance against the small/mid size ballgroups.

This.

xshatox

DjinnAeternam wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

if performance is improved we may get back to the days of ballgroups absolutely dominating. Rollbacks and desyncs are the only things giving pug groups a chance against the small/mid size ballgroups.

This.

So far most of them still ***.

xshatox

Btw, i only saw ball group once during this festival on IC. A DC ball group but havent seen others. Where are they going? Still in curodiil? From my observation, mostly zerg still there, bomber 1 or 2 and mostly on molag. Ganker mostly on sewer but not much on the surface. Few rock *** on the surface.

finehair

Once again, please don't compare ball grouping with coordinated groups. Coordinated groups actually more capable than spamming one skill while following the giant crown symbol on their screen. Also they don't wipe to randoms because their purge/heal spammer got ganked on the backline or magnumshotted down from the edge.

Also, it becomes a zerg when you have 24 people in that ball "group". And you don't get to whine about getting zerged by enemy faction because that's what you were looking for in the first place. Just because enemy zerg has more people than yours it doesn't mean they are bad players who only rely on mass. That means you don't know how to pick your fights with your group.

My favourite ballgroups are the ones that ride alongside their faction' lfg group. You can leech your ap without moving in a blob on empty keep while the randoms are capturing it just FYI.

DUTCH_REAPER

We must embrace our inner potato and run straight into the enemy zerg/ballgroup! I will do my part and potato, you can count on me, I aint skeered

Tammany

So, after recent changes we have:
(EU no cp pc)

-Game does not lag as much around ballblobs as it used to lag before, 3 locks, 60 que (AD)
-Red ball became unnoticable. Most blues balls turned into meme as well, last one decided to slap more heal spammers into their group to compensate healing cooldowns (tru skill involved right here) and switched to dot meta, still dies fast outside of keeps.
- 2x reduced amount of 1 buttonl spamming templars per square metter
- no more train speed streaking sorks
- Sideeffect: detection potion becomes mandatory due to insane amount of magblades

Can't wait for 12 peeps test phase

SmukkeHeks

But they sure taste nice’n’salty

idk

Tammany wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Would it make more sense for Zos to figure out how to fix the game

That's what they are doing atm - getting rid of cancerous gameplay ballgroups represent.
That thing is really entertaining - in every competitive mmorpg "coordinated gameplay" means the same setup as other playersbut with really good coordination, meanwhile in eso "pinnacle of pvp" is a group that abuses heal/shield stacking and spams aoe spells - the very idea of being able to stack multiple layers of one spell is pretty archaic for 2020 year still remains in ESO. The only coodrination you have is wearing the asked set of spells and follow WASD addon with simple "go, stay, go" commands. My parrot executes harder tasks.

I like how the quoted sentence was edited.

This thread seems to be blaming players for the issue which is entirely incorrect. Zos is working on testing changes to mechanics which is irrelevant to "ball groups". Groups are the same as they were in the early days of this game so to blame so-called "ball groups" for the degraded performance does not hold up to the reality of the game.

xshatox

finehair wrote: »

Once again, please don't compare ball grouping with coordinated groups. Coordinated groups actually more capable than spamming one skill while following the giant crown symbol on their screen. Also they don't wipe to randoms because their purge/heal spammer got ganked on the backline or magnumshotted down from the edge.

Also, it becomes a zerg when you have 24 people in that ball "group". And you don't get to whine about getting zerged by enemy faction because that's what you were looking for in the first place. Just because enemy zerg has more people than yours it doesn't mean they are bad players who only rely on mass. That means you don't know how to pick your fights with your group.

My favourite ballgroups are the ones that ride alongside their faction' lfg group. You can leech your ap without moving in a blob on empty keep while the randoms are capturing it just FYI.

Potato potahto

Tammany

13/09/20

Whole day no lags, EUnocpPC cyrodill is full, pop locked, lots of zergs around
But no ballblobs meanwhile.

What a coincidence (not)

esotoon

Tammany wrote: »

13/09/20

Whole day no lags, EUnocpPC cyrodill is full, pop locked, lots of zergs around
But no ballblobs meanwhile.

What a coincidence (not)

What's the coincidence?

a) The fact there is no lag and no ball groups?
b) The fact there is no lag and the server isn’t having to calculate all the AOEs cast by the zerg?
c) The fact there is no lag and the server isn’t having to calculate all the AOE’s cast by both the ball groups and the zerg?

(If your answer is a) or b) your biases are showing )

esotoon

Tammany wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

No, I just prefer using actual evidence and logic to find the causes of problems, rather than stating as fact something which is just speculation based on logical fallacies.

[Quoted post was removed]

So can you explain why this ball group caused this? People were speculating before that it was all the AOE's being cast, so rapidly in such a small area. But that ball group can no longer do that, so what was different about that ball group being there, to say a group of pugs, or a zerg?

If a ball group turning up caused the same type of lag the server was experiencing before, when that ball group can't cast AOE's as frequently, if anything, would suggest it's not the AOE's that were causing the lag. So what is? Is it just casting skills in general, whether they are AOE or not? Is it something else they are doing?

Tammany

esotoon wrote: »

No, I just prefer using actual evidence and logic

So maybe you are able to explain why game works fine without ballblobs and lags heavy when they are around ?
Probably you did not notice it as a constant ballblober, but it is. Every time lag starts people complain in chat about ballgroups, and these days when cyro works fine in primetime ballgroups are offline.
Second fact - during bugged group invite for TWO DAYS cyro did not lag at all full locked, but started right afer group invite has been fixed and blobs appeared again.

Now, when cooldowns are not shared we have 3x ballblobs in the same time and the lag is ridiculous comp to previous week.