Ballgroup cyrodill infestation

DracoKaiser

Icarus42 wrote: »

We all know this, anyone who has PvP'd in cyrodiil. Every time you approach a ballgroup it is like the event horizon of a black hole, and you end up entering a lag infested time warp. It is just hilarious to me how some of these people so vigorously defend this playstyle. Of course I realize that ZoS has put these mechanics into the game and people will use them, my problem is that people actively choose to play this way, which directly or indirectly negatively affects other peoples experience. Of course you can say hey you can just choose to not fight them etc. However that goes out the door when they are inside your main keep running around on the walls farming pugs. With no objective in mind except it seems to be as annoying as possible, or so it seems. We have all experienced this time and again from certain guilds, who dont even try to capture the flags instead they sit upstairs in the keep waiting for pugs to run into their little web of doom. I guess that is fun for them? IDK.

I call BS to all those who defend ballgroups because of this. IMO ballgroups should go on to there own camp and stay there.

But overrun each keep with the massive Zerg is ok? Any ballgroup guilds like hold the defends. Not all i know.

esotoon

Icarus42 wrote: »

We all know this, anyone who has PvP'd in cyrodiil. Every time you approach a ballgroup it is like the event horizon of a black hole, and you end up entering a lag infested time warp.

We also all know that numbers of players on the server alone also causes lag, yet the majority of players would all rather line up to join a pop-locked 30day CP campaign, than go to some of the less populated servers. So why only hold ball groups accountable for playing in a manner that is known to "directly or indirectly negatively affects other peoples experience", when everyone playing on the laggier pop locked servers are equally culpable?

At the end of the day, our frustrations should be with ZOS. If we are all honest about it, logically speaking no one should be paying ZOS to play a buggy game that runs on servers that aren't up to the task, but we do. So to justify it, and because ZOS won't fix the issues, we aim our frustrations at each other, and draw up these pretend scenarios of "It's these other players faults, because I'm certainly not to blame", rather than admitting we are all to blame, and holding ZOS accountable.

technohic

I can dislike you all for the lag. And I do.

Ackwalan

DracoKaiser wrote: »

Icarus42 wrote: »

We all know this, anyone who has PvP'd in cyrodiil. Every time you approach a ballgroup it is like the event horizon of a black hole, and you end up entering a lag infested time warp. It is just hilarious to me how some of these people so vigorously defend this playstyle. Of course I realize that ZoS has put these mechanics into the game and people will use them, my problem is that people actively choose to play this way, which directly or indirectly negatively affects other peoples experience. Of course you can say hey you can just choose to not fight them etc. However that goes out the door when they are inside your main keep running around on the walls farming pugs. With no objective in mind except it seems to be as annoying as possible, or so it seems. We have all experienced this time and again from certain guilds, who dont even try to capture the flags instead they sit upstairs in the keep waiting for pugs to run into their little web of doom. I guess that is fun for them? IDK.

I call BS to all those who defend ballgroups because of this. IMO ballgroups should go on to there own camp and stay there.

But overrun each keep with the massive Zerg is ok? Any ballgroup guilds like hold the defends. Not all i know.

Those zergs don't sit at a keep or rss until they get killed. Ball groups are know to run around the third floor for an hour or more.

vesselwiththepestle

Kartalin wrote: »

Tbh the idea of defeating a coordinated group with an uncoordinated one is pretty silly,

I agree, but I didn't write about uncoordinated groups. I was writing about alternative tactics in a coordinated group. Coordinated groups don't need to play and behave like ball groups. But like I said before, building a ball group is probably easier than building a group with alternative tactics. You can look up ball group setups, you can watch videos of them using their ball group tactics, you see them every day in the game...

Icarus42

esotoon wrote: »

Icarus42 wrote: »

We all know this, anyone who has PvP'd in cyrodiil. Every time you approach a ballgroup it is like the event horizon of a black hole, and you end up entering a lag infested time warp.

We also all know that numbers of players on the server alone also causes lag, yet the majority of players would all rather line up to join a pop-locked 30day CP campaign, than go to some of the less populated servers. So why only hold ball groups accountable for playing in a manner that is known to "directly or indirectly negatively affects other peoples experience", when everyone playing on the laggier pop locked servers are equally culpable?

At the end of the day, our frustrations should be with ZOS. If we are all honest about it, logically speaking no one should be paying ZOS to play a buggy game that runs on servers that aren't up to the task, but we do. So to justify it, and because ZOS won't fix the issues, we aim our frustrations at each other, and draw up these pretend scenarios of "It's these other players faults, because I'm certainly not to blame", rather than admitting we are all to blame, and holding ZOS accountable.

You have a very good point, and you are correct our gripe should be with ZOS. I guess I am frustrated by what I believe to be the cause of lag in some situations ie. ballgroups. I am only stating these things through personal observation, after facing these groups for years now I have just noticed that the lag is considerably worse when you approach them. You are also correct in saying that zergs can have the same effect. So I suppose my argument is moot, and all we can do is hope they fix the servers. Doesnt seem like this serves any purpose except to gripe about these ballgroups that I imagine are a plague to this game. I am not alone in this idea. It is also a fact that ZOS has created this atmosphere and should therefore be blamed instead of criticizing someones playstyle, I apologize if I offended anyone in the process of this diatribe. It is merely frustration that I was illustrating.

Sm0ke

More and more adequate comments are starting to appear here.
Otherwise, I thought that they would continue to blame the group's ball for lags server.
People come to your senses, only developer is to blame for low-quality Cyrodiil servers and lags, not groups of people and their style of play, we play an online game and it is a normal practice to see coordinated groups in pvp and pve both.
You may not contact with them, otherwise play offline games.
Sometimes it seems to me that there are so many complaints about ball groups because you just weren't accepted into it, that's all.
And blaming someone for being better than you is ridiculous.

Tammany

Whole topic is about wierd mechanic of the game that allows players to stack mulltiple effects of ONE SKILL (heal. shield) wich makes particular players nearly immortal.
For 3 pages ballgroupers do not understand that and still posts messages blaming people for disliking (?) team (?) play - clearly proves that average player does not have to be really smart to play inside a ballgroup.

Once again - there is an organised teamplay, there is a ballgroup. First one is based on coordination between members and their skills, last one is just stacking effects. Do not mess these two. Runnign circless while listening "run, jump, wait, push - run, jump, wait, push - run, jump, wait, push" gathering ultimate is nowhere hard by 2020 standarts. Being told to run particular sets and skills isnt that hard as well. Pressing ultimate button by "ULTIMATE GO" discord call doesn't look hard either.
Standart military dog executes much more complicated commands.

Icarus42 wrote: »

Sometimes it seems to me that there are so many complaints about ball groups because you just weren't accepted into it

[snip]

Icarus42 wrote: »

And blaming someone for being better than you is ridiculous.

Make a video with ballgrpoup being able to run efficiently without heal/shield stacking and your point will be valid.
Untill that you are just a ragtag of people who abuse game effect stacking mechanic that lives only in eso.

[Edited to remove Inappropriate Content]

Sm0ke

Then you decide who you have your claims to - to mechanics of game or to ball group.
People play the way the game allowed them to play, the developer, but for some reason all your accusations always end on ball group, they are to blame for everything.
Lag - ball group, abuse of mechanics - ball group.
It's even hard for me to count in this topic how many times you used the word ball group.
I will disappoint you, but even in PvE people execute RL commands and also use the same mechanics that they use in PvP, that is, to your logic, they are also stupid?
I think you have no idea what the ball group looks like from the inside and what people do inside it, you have a very strange opinion, one-sided, since you obviously did not play in it.
I am very glad that lately there are more and more ball groups appear and groups that are trying to imitate them.
It's a cooperative game and it really gets more interesting.
You can play on BG or just not run into such ball groups, if you are not interested and you cannot do anything against them.
But blaming and complaining about them is simply not logical. You're just complaining about group play, which is very strange since it's Cyrodiil.

Tammany

SmokeHappiness wrote: »

I think you have no idea what the ball group looks like from the inside and what people do inside it

Oww please elaborate, how ball group look like and what people do inside ?

Kadoin

Tammany wrote: »

Whole topic is about wierd mechanic of the game that allows players to stack mulltiple effects of ONE SKILL (heal. shield) wich makes particular players nearly immortal.

It's not really that, but more the purge mechanic. Without damage reduction heals mean nothing, but purge itself is also a form of damage reduction and the best form in PvP as long as you can sustain it IMO. I know this because I play in ballgroups, solo, sometimes tail a faction stack as the only healer and keep it from collapsing, etc., but most of all I heal in Cyro and I heal a lot.

If purge wasn't a mechanic that cleared every negative effect in the game, including stuns and snares, there would actually be ways to counter ball groups. Instead players have to rely on negate, which isn't very efficient, and exactly what smarter ball groups use against their enemies (that some ball groups usually outnumber) anyway.

Both purge mechanics and negate are hard crutches for ballgroups, as are the tools that were supposedly made to counter ballgroups. If ZOS wants to counter ball groups or take some power away from them, the first places they should look are purge and negate.

If negate is going to be the only counter to ballgroups then it needs to be more accessible through siege or some other mechanic IMO, and if purge mechanics are going to cleanse all negative effects, then at least it shouldn't always purge stuns and snares (snare purge can be moved to rapids instead, removed from sets like Stendarr and Curse Eater, but left on Templar synergy). This will be both a buff and nerf to those sets at the same time -- a nerf for spammers, but buff to thoughtful use and actually prevent sets like curse eater and stendarr from being consumed by snare effects which effectively make them useless for solo play.

Those two changes will pull a lot of power out of ball groups alone, but wait for the disagreement and noise to start to claim it would do otherwise or somehow "nerf solos." I am waiting...

Crash427

Kadoin wrote: »

...

If negate is going to be the only counter to ballgroups then it needs to be more accessible through siege or some other mechanic IMO, and if purge mechanics are going to cleanse all negative effects, then at least it shouldn't always purge stuns and snares (snare purge can be moved to rapids instead, removed from sets like Stendarr and Curse Eater, but left on Templar synergy). This will be both a buff and nerf to those sets at the same time -- a nerf for spammers, but buff to thoughtful use and actually prevent sets like curse eater and stendarr from being consumed by snare effects which effectively make them useless for solo play.

Those two changes will pull a lot of power out of ball groups alone, but wait for the disagreement and noise to start to claim it would do otherwise or somehow "nerf solos." I am waiting...

Snare immunity used to be on rapids. They changed it because groups were rolling 20 stamdens deep with rapid spammers and everyone else spamming sub assault-spin to win. I feel like all the people complaining about rad regen stacking having forgotten or weren't around for the days of vigor stacking. And fine, take snare/immobilize purge off curse eater or anything else. Won't make a difference other than the rest of the ballgroups that haven't will all switch over to snow treaders.

Whatever changes are made ballgroups will always push the limits of what ZOS puts in the game. Players that try to take them on will always complain. It's been that way pretty much since the beginning of the game.

Kadoin

Crash427 wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

...

If negate is going to be the only counter to ballgroups then it needs to be more accessible through siege or some other mechanic IMO, and if purge mechanics are going to cleanse all negative effects, then at least it shouldn't always purge stuns and snares (snare purge can be moved to rapids instead, removed from sets like Stendarr and Curse Eater, but left on Templar synergy). This will be both a buff and nerf to those sets at the same time -- a nerf for spammers, but buff to thoughtful use and actually prevent sets like curse eater and stendarr from being consumed by snare effects which effectively make them useless for solo play.

Those two changes will pull a lot of power out of ball groups alone, but wait for the disagreement and noise to start to claim it would do otherwise or somehow "nerf solos." I am waiting...

Snare immunity used to be on rapids. They changed it because groups were rolling 20 stamdens deep with rapid spammers and everyone else spamming sub assault-spin to win. I feel like all the people complaining about rad regen stacking having forgotten or weren't around for the days of vigor stacking. And fine, take snare/immobilize purge off curse eater or anything else. Won't make a difference other than the rest of the ballgroups that haven't will all switch over to snow treaders.

Whatever changes are made ballgroups will always push the limits of what ZOS puts in the game. Players that try to take them on will always complain. It's been that way pretty much since the beginning of the game.

Well at least that will have an investment and a downside in their group builds I know I wouldn't slot treaders, even if changes like I described happened

red_emu

I'm just here for the:

"... we play as the game was intended to play..."

-I thought PvP was meant to be about competitiveness and skill, not running 2 skills on your bar and spamming them.

".. Why not nerf zergs that fight ball groups, zergs cause lags..."

2 points on that:

-most ball groups don't fight zergs. 9/10 times they chase and fight solo, small groups. Why use 24 ultimates on 50 players when you can dump 24 ultimates on a 16k HP low level nightblade?

-lag is caused by your AOE spam or AOE is lag immune. 99% of the time, you can have 50 people throwing ultis, skills, stuns etc onto a ball group and nothing happens. Somehow ball group AOE takes server priority and PUG skills refuse to go off all together. You try to bomb a ball group? You get 24 "missed" messages on your screen and you're actually dead 30 seconds before you even approach the group.

I think ZOS needs to integrate voice comms into the base game, to level out the playing field. 😊

Sm0ke

Dude, what nonsense are you talking about?
If you want competitiveness, then fight in a duel or play on BG (thanks to people like you, because of whom the group search for BG was simply removed).
Here, no one is obliged to play the way you want, this is a Сyrodiil, everyone plays as he wants and does what he wants, this is a cooperative PvP map.
Regarding spamming 2 abilities, open any video ball group and see what they use. They also use 10 skills on their each panel, exactly as much as you use, with the exception of the attacking spam ability, which deals AoE damage, not solo target you are using.
What kind of nonsense I sometimes read here. It's just funny

MipMip

Tammany wrote: »

Oww please elaborate, how ball group look like and what people do inside ?

What, you don’t know? And you talk and talk about ball groups? 😊 (not surprised, based on many of the things you have said)

SmokeHappiness wrote: »

You're just complaining about group play, which is very strange since it's Cyrodiil.

Thanks @SmokeHappiness for this and your other good common sense comments!

Tigor

Summarised: It creates lag , calls itself skillful and blames everyone else who does not want to play that style, for zerging and gets away with it. What is it?

The answer needs to be segregated from pvp, to prevent more group stacking. Hello! How simple it can be.
Preventive actions pls.

Tammany

MipMip wrote: »

What, you don’t know? And you talk and talk about ball groups?

Seems like you don't know either, since outside of posting "oh youuuu" uninformative message you did not post any useful information where exactly i was wrong in previous posts. Well, its not hard to break your forum fairytale immediately just by linking vodka's ballgroup stream. Whatever, do not expect much from ballgroupers.
You are not spamming designated skills ? You do.
Are you immortal against pugs due to layers of heal/shield + purge ? Yes you are.

In 50th time - point of this topic is not elemitate ballgrpoups - feel free to spam aoe skills with your buddies as much as you want.
Point is - current game mechanic allows people to negate tons of incoming damage and completely ignore siege engines damage due to flaws in that game mechanic. Being able to stack million effects of one spell is considered a flaw in 2020, thats why any competitive mmo does not have that allowed (any except ESO by fact).
I'am little bit against complete purge rework, but this spell should not be able to clear oil/ballistast debuffs with one button press, we already have anti siege shield. That won't allow you to stand near the keep gates under 50 oils implying its a lotion.

Sm0ke

@Tammany

I didn't want to add it here until the last moment, but since you keep complaining, I'll show you this.
This will be about the guild you are complaining about.
This is my last post in this thread, as I see no reason to continue talking with people who do not improve their game, but complain constantly on forum.
They were not saved by purge, heal stack,shields and one skill spamming which you are constantly talking about here.
Video of 2 of my friends from my guild.
L2P my friend.It possible to kill ball group if u use u brain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwCpmOL5pQU

Sm0ke

And your whole problem lies in fact that it is the pugs who wants to run and kill with "one button", with a siege weapon or oil any enemy and group, not a ball group.
Complaints about lags and ball groups sound even funnier.
Players are not to blame for anything.

Sm0ke

Hundreds of groups recruit people to their guilds daily.
But you prefer to play alone and complain in the forum that you cannot kill them.
Deliberately forces ZoS to destroy the mechanics of the game and forcing them to make the game casual.
Don't forget that Cyrodiil is a co-op campaign where people have to play together.
If you want solo and fair play, then rather you need to play BG or fight in a duel.

Tammany

SmokeHappiness wrote: »

@Tammany
This is my last post in this thread

Thats for good, thanks.

rk1101320

we are playing ball group to farm hate tells

finehair

"ball groups are the ultimate end game for pvp"

:DD:D:D
10 wardens constantly crosshealing each other to keep themselves alive while some of them dealing damage to other 15-20 guy fighting them; this is organized group. It is annoying to fight these but they are coordinated.
20 people with 2 skills on their skill bars that just follows the big crown on their screen while mashing 1 button and dies after their healers/purgers are dead; this is "the ultimate endgame pvp" according to ball groupers.
And yesterday, blue ball group wiping the floor with the red one was truly a sight to see. Guess that's why they tend not to fight against each other.
Few days ago my friend used magnum shot on the ball leader and threw them to courtyard from roof, their group jumped without even the guy hit the ground just like sheeps following the lead lol

Big blob of lag and nothing more they are to be honest, but trying to avoid them is kind of impossible in noncp EU. You can avoid fighting 2 ball groups and go to other keep, which only has 1 at least.

Tammany

Developer literally confirmed ballblobs aoe spammers are the reason for additional lag in a game not going great in general.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/539136/update-on-cyrodiil-performance-upcoming-aoe-tests
Who could have guessed, yeah.

Tigor

Tammany wrote: »

Developer literally confirmed ballblobs aoe spammers are the reason for additional lag in a game not going great in general.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/539136/update-on-cyrodiil-performance-upcoming-aoe-tests
Who could have guessed, yeah.

Finally! Great job. Thank you for your posts

esotoon

Tammany wrote: »

Developer literally confirmed ballblobs aoe spammers are the reason for additional lag in a game not going great in general.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/539136/update-on-cyrodiil-performance-upcoming-aoe-tests
Who could have guessed, yeah.

Post where ZOS admit that they have let power creep get out of control, have failed to balance their game, have allowed the situation to get so bad it is overwhelming the servers, and that 6 years into the game they are finally going to address these issues, and STILL your ire is with ball groups? smh

technohic

esotoon wrote: »

Tammany wrote: »

Developer literally confirmed ballblobs aoe spammers are the reason for additional lag in a game not going great in general.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/539136/update-on-cyrodiil-performance-upcoming-aoe-tests
Who could have guessed, yeah.

Post where ZOS admit that they have let power creep get out of control, have failed to balance their game, have allowed the situation to get so bad it is overwhelming the servers, and that 6 years into the game they are finally going to address these issues, and STILL your ire is with ball groups? smh

What do you think they are talking about with that? Think they clearly are referring to ball groups and how there are more now, and no longer just 12 people but 24 man raids are adopting the strategy.

Tammany

esotoon wrote: »

Post where ZOS admit that they have let power creep get out of control, have failed to balance their game, have allowed the situation to get so bad it is overwhelming the servers, and that 6 years into the game they are finally going to address these issues, and STILL your ire is with ball groups? smh

I'am actually happy ballblobs aoe spam causes major performance issue each time they appear.
It could have been damn hard to drag devs attention to that cancerous gameplay problem otherwise.

Special thanks to russian EP non cp ballgroup stream that allowed to describe and report their ingame behavior propely.
Thanks you guys

esotoon

technohic wrote: »

What do you think they are talking about with that? Think they clearly are referring to ball groups and how there are more now, and no longer just 12 people but 24 man raids are adopting the strategy.

You are missing the point. Zos implemented the systems and mechanics that allow that kind of group to flourish. They continued to leave those systems in place and made them worse by adding new sets constantly to the game that made things worse. They knew the servers weren't up to it. They knew it made the game unbalanced. They knew it wasn't what they intended but allowed it to continue on anyway.

But instead of being mad at ZOS, you are mad at the ball groups, even though they are simply running in the most optimal set ups based on the systems and mechanics that ZOS themselves implemented and allowed to happen.