ESO Overland Veteran Mode

max_only

I like your write up, especially the part where the challenge IS the reward.
I don’t like that the end of stories require a group to complete, not everyone in the group will be there for the story. Those types of people that just click through quest text will be in direct conflict with people who wanted an epic ending to a great story. So story bosses need to be solo, Mano y Mano, or it will get the same conflict that dungeons currently get (“I’ve done this story a hundred times lol skip skip skip”)

Iccotak

max_only wrote: »

I like your write up, especially the part where the challenge IS the reward.
I don’t like that the end of stories require a group to complete, not everyone in the group will be there for the story. Those types of people that just click through quest text will be in direct conflict with people who wanted an epic ending to a great story. So story bosses need to be solo, Mano y Mano, or it will get the same conflict that dungeons currently get (“I’ve done this story a hundred times lol skip skip skip”)

I can understand preferring a Veteran Solo experience for the story, as you said, the "Story Rushing" is an issue.

If they could design a solo instance that was more on par with maelstrom arena - meaning that the Solo experience was actually challenging AND engaging - then I would be happy with that.

nemvar

I remember when there was a halfway challenging (not really) story boss in Wrothgar. I think he was called Iceheart or something generic like that.
He actually had mechanics that did damage if you didn't do them, and we can't have that can we?
Got nerfed while still on the PTS because of complaints on the forum.

I think the reason why a hardmode will never be added is because a lot of the newer zonebosses don't actually have decently designed mechanics on their bosses, even if they were to do damage.
Take, for example, the dragons at the end of Elswyr and its epilogue. They are pure timegates.
Or the final boss of Summerset, did she even mechanics at all? All I remember was her doing light attacks.
I think that they just stopped bothering with trying since it's trivial anyways. Can't blame them for that.

If we got a hardmode right now, it would highlight this problem, hence why we will never get it.

Asdara

Infinite re-playability YES YES YES YES

Crimsonwolf666

Problem is, you have Craglorn and next to no one does it. So ZoS has to ask themselves, based off how well/not well Craglorn did, even after making the storyline at least soloable, is it worth the money to make Veteran overland content, especially with no extra rewards for doing so. While sure, this will draw some hardcore players, it won't anywhere near reflect the main base, I feel. Not a bad idea, but sadly, might not be realistic

Mrtoobyy

I would like something similar to Diablo 3 system.
As a starter you have like three difficulties and as you complete stuff you unlock even harder modes.
Harder mode = better/rare loot etc.
A negative buff (battle spirit) on yourself that increases the hardee you go.
And If you play in a group "tamriel's monsters have grown stronger"

Example, complete Cadwell's gold on the fifth hardest difficulty would unlock "Super rare motif"

Iccotak

Crimsonwolf666 wrote: »

Problem is, you have Craglorn and next to no one does it. So ZoS has to ask themselves, based off how well/not well Craglorn did, even after making the storyline at least soloable.

This is why I wanted to take some things from Craglorn but I don’t copy it really At All.

Craglorns core issue is that it Forced you to group up for everything, it still does in instances.
It is basically a Group Dungeon as a Zone.

We want to avoid this.
Make it more like Public Dungeon. Where you can be capable to solo it, but players might be inclined to group up if they want to.

A key difference though is that instead of increasing the number of enemies, we focus on increasing what they can do.

This way public dungeons are still unique for being harder delves that have more enemies than usual.

Odovacar

This idea for sure wont ever happen OP but insightful take on if it were to...

Iccotak

nemvar wrote: »

I remember when there was a halfway challenging (not really) story boss in Wrothgar. I think he was called Iceheart or something generic like that.
He actually had mechanics that did damage if you didn't do them, and we can't have that can we?
Got nerfed while still on the PTS because of complaints on the forum.

I think the reason why a hardmode will never be added is because a lot of the newer zonebosses don't actually have decently designed mechanics on their bosses, even if they were to do damage.
Take, for example, the dragons at the end of Elswyr and its epilogue. They are pure timegates.
Or the final boss of Summerset, did she even mechanics at all? All I remember was her doing light attacks.
I think that they just stopped bothering with trying since it's trivial anyways. Can't blame them for that.

If we got a hardmode right now, it would highlight this problem, hence why we will never get it.

Well I think that the “Iceheart” you explained would be perfect for a separate instance that everyone understands is harder.

People can still play on normal and have the easier version of it but Veteran mode would have include things like a Harder “Iceheart”

EDIT: But yes, you can't just give them more health and deal more damage because it highlights the core issue which is that their mechanics are not at all engaging like the ones we encounter in dungeons & trials

Iccotak

Thechuckage wrote: »

I think part of the problem craglorn failed was overtuning. But now powercreep has gotten to the point people are soloing all sorts of different things.

At the very least scaling needs a second look.

agreed, before an idea like this can be considered, I do think that ZOS needs to reevaluate the power creep.

They have said that they are which is why they have not increased the CP cap from 810.

However, even when that is finally addressed I hope ZOS at least does something with difficulty settings or at least just making harder versions of the Story Bosses - because right now they are just annoying time gates that any player of any level could beat

Sorbin

I feel like there should be a slight increase on rewards to make it feel worthwhile. The dopamine addiction is a big part of the gameplay loop. Build your character to be stronger, take on greater challenges, earn better rewards. It doesn't need to be much. Something like a very small chance for an overland drop to be higher quality or a small chance of a gold crafting material drop. Rewards matter in this genre. We keep mentioning Craglorn as an epic failure, but honestly why would I take on the challenge for a chance to earn three absolutely garbage sets? It's the enticement of treasure that makes the danger more appealing.

Iccotak

Sorbin wrote: »

I feel like there should be a slight increase on rewards to make it feel worthwhile. The dopamine addiction is a big part of the gameplay loop. Build your character to be stronger, take on greater challenges, earn better rewards. It doesn't need to be much. Something like a very small chance for an overland drop to be higher quality or a small chance of a gold crafting material drop. Rewards matter in this genre. We keep mentioning Craglorn as an epic failure, but honestly why would I take on the challenge for a chance to earn three absolutely garbage sets? It's the enticement of treasure that makes the danger more appealing.

It's a hard line to manage.

Like mentioned in the OP - Many previous discussions brought up having more monetary reward and greater chance to earn higher quality in Veteran Overland Mode

It's a fair point that there are going to be people that want to be rewarded with better stats for their harder work.

The issue, as you may have seen, is that many people don't want gear & money rewards for increased difficulty because that could lead to people leaving Normal instance in droves.
They will then proceed to argue that people are not looking really for a "challenge" but opportunity for at an easier grind for gear & gold.

This is why I proposed the compromise of cosmetic rewards for completing achievements & challenges.
I also view it as reminiscent of the single player titles, which did not give greater reward for increased challenge but it felt rewarding to beat things on a higher difficulty.

So my advice would be to proceed with caution when discussing rewards for increased difficulty when it comes to overland content.

Sorbin

Iccotak wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

I feel like there should be a slight increase on rewards to make it feel worthwhile. The dopamine addiction is a big part of the gameplay loop. Build your character to be stronger, take on greater challenges, earn better rewards. It doesn't need to be much. Something like a very small chance for an overland drop to be higher quality or a small chance of a gold crafting material drop. Rewards matter in this genre. We keep mentioning Craglorn as an epic failure, but honestly why would I take on the challenge for a chance to earn three absolutely garbage sets? It's the enticement of treasure that makes the danger more appealing.

It's a hard line to manage.

Like mentioned in the OP - Many previous discussions brought up having more monetary reward and greater chance to earn higher quality in Veteran Overland Mode

It's a fair point that there are going to be people that want to be rewarded with better stats for their harder work.

The issue, as you may have seen, is that many people don't want gear & money rewards for increased difficulty because that could lead to people leaving Normal instance in droves.
They will then proceed to argue that people are not looking really for a "challenge" but opportunity for at an easier grind for gear & gold.

This is why I proposed the compromise of cosmetic rewards for completing achievements & challenges.
I also view it as reminiscent of the single player titles, which did not give greater reward for increased challenge but it felt rewarding to beat things on a higher difficulty.

So my advice would be to proceed with caution when discussing rewards for increased difficulty when it comes to overland content.

I actually like that. Cosmetic rewards could be rotated through numerous different types of content to spur engagement honestly. Sea of Thieves does a lot with cosmetic rewards for different types of content and it's largely successful.

Olauron

I feel that you don't understand this game and this playerbase. Cosmetics is much more important than sets or skills. That's why houses and motifs are the most expensive both in crown store and in guild stores. That's why carry price for cosmetic skins are astronomical. That's why completion ratio of vMA is neglectable. You can place vMA or nMA weapons in the crown store right now, but outfits of these weapons would sell better.
That's why locking better gear behind veteran content is counterproductive (they are already powerful to do this content, you don't need making them even more powerful, this will cause power creep). And at the same time that's why locking better cosmetics behind veteran content is the kick in the face of the majority of paying customers.

Iccotak

Olauron wrote: »

I feel that you don't understand this game and this playerbase. Cosmetics is much more important than sets or skills. That's why houses and motifs are the most expensive both in crown store and in guild stores. That's why carry price for cosmetic skins are astronomical. That's why completion ratio of vMA is neglectable. You can place vMA or nMA weapons in the crown store right now, but outfits of these weapons would sell better.
That's why locking better gear behind veteran content is counterproductive (they are already powerful to do this content, you don't need making them even more powerful, this will cause power creep). And at the same time that's why locking better cosmetics behind veteran content is the kick in the face of the majority of paying customers.

an interesting take

I think you understand that I am not, in anyway, proposing better gear or more obtainable power for Veteran as that is what I clearly stated in the post and reiterated more than once in this thread. So I will address the point about cosmetics.

The quality of cosmetic would entirely depend on the challenge/achievement.

Example - Story Boss:
Completing all the challenges of the Veteran Molag Bal would give you a house.
Along your journey to get the "Challenger achievement" you could attain a skin & personality too, maybe a mount.

Example - Dolmens:
The achievements for Dolmens & World Bosses in "Normal" only require beating them once.
So for Veteran it might be more of a grind to beat them "X" number of times or to beat every Big Bad that comes out of the dolmen.

Point being that the cosmetic rewards would not be hand-outs, you would actually have to earn them through playing activities.
Some would be easy, some would be hard.

1. There are already cosmetics (like titles, polymorphs, and costumes) that can be earned in overland, leveling, events, and even for logging in. So saying to put more of that in the playable content is not drastic.
2. Players have been asking for more cosmetics that can be earned in-game to balance the amount available in the crown store.

This is why the achievements & challenges in the proposal are centered around repeatable content - rather than questing as handling Normal & Veteran instance questing would be a nightmare.

As I also said in the OP the reason I put those rewards behind the Veteran instance is a compromise.
Whenever people asked for a "Veteran Overland Mode" in the past the issue always comes down to handling rewards.

Many people don't want gear & money rewards for increased difficulty because they think that people are not looking really for a "challenge" but opportunity at an easier grind for gear & gold.
That it could lead to people leaving the Normal instance in droves to grind in Veteran.

This is understandable however, players are still going to want a reward of some sort for playing the harder content.
So the compromise I proposed is various cosmetic rewards.

I hardly view it as a kick in the face, but giving something to both new & long term players

Olauron

Iccotak wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

I feel that you don't understand this game and this playerbase. Cosmetics is much more important than sets or skills. That's why houses and motifs are the most expensive both in crown store and in guild stores. That's why carry price for cosmetic skins are astronomical. That's why completion ratio of vMA is neglectable. You can place vMA or nMA weapons in the crown store right now, but outfits of these weapons would sell better.
That's why locking better gear behind veteran content is counterproductive (they are already powerful to do this content, you don't need making them even more powerful, this will cause power creep). And at the same time that's why locking better cosmetics behind veteran content is the kick in the face of the majority of paying customers.

an interesting take

I think you understand that I am not, in anyway, proposing better gear or more obtainable power for Veteran as that is what I clearly stated in the post and reiterated more than once in this thread. So I will address the point about cosmetics.

The quality of cosmetic would entirely depend on the challenge/achievement.

Example - Story Boss:
Completing all the challenges of the Veteran Molag Bal would give you a house.
Along your journey to get the "Challenger achievement" you could attain a skin & personality too, maybe a mount.

Example - Dolmens:
The achievements for Dolmens & World Bosses in "Normal" only require beating them once.
So for Veteran it might be more of a grind to beat them "X" number of times or to beat every Big Bad that comes out of the dolmen.

Point being that the cosmetic rewards would not be hand-outs, you would actually have to earn them through playing activities.
Some would be easy, some would be hard.

1. There are already cosmetics (like titles, polymorphs, and costumes) that can be earned in overland, leveling, events, and even for logging in. So saying to put more of that in the playable content is not drastic.
2. Players have been asking for more cosmetics that can be earned in-game to balance the amount available in the crown store.

This is why the achievements & challenges in the proposal are centered around repeatable content - rather than questing as handling Normal & Veteran instance questing would be a nightmare.

As I also said in the OP the reason I put those rewards behind the Veteran instance is a compromise.
Whenever people asked for a "Veteran Overland Mode" in the past the issue always comes down to handling rewards.

Many people don't want gear & money rewards for increased difficulty because they think that people are not looking really for a "challenge" but opportunity at an easier grind for gear & gold.
That it could lead to people leaving the Normal instance in droves to grind in Veteran.

This is understandable however, players are still going to want a reward of some sort for playing the harder content.
So the compromise I proposed is various cosmetic rewards.

I hardly view it as a kick in the face, but giving something to both new & long term players

RE: Story Boss
This will lead to the situation you claim you do not want ("The issue, as you may have seen, is that many people don't want gear & money rewards for increased difficulty because that could lead to people leaving Normal instance in droves"). People will leave normal for veteran in droves, because what is the point of doing the whole story on normal and then repeat it on veteran to get the house? And people will complain that it is too hard. You will simply get Craglorn v2, when everyone is in veteran for the cosmetics, struggle to go it and push developers to lower the difficulty.

RE: Dolmens
Do we really need even more grind? Do we really need the pain of farming the same dolmen bosses several times, when they are not linked to zones now? Crown crates are better than this, as they are at least fast to open.

RE: Earning cosmetic rewards by playing
Why do you think ZOS puts in crown store or crown crates skins and mounts that are similar to rewards by playing? Yes, players have been asking, but you should look for the context. Players are usually asking for rewards that can actually be earned in game, not rewards that they will struggle to get for months (see vMA and HM trials).

RE: A reward of some sort
The first thing you should ask is why people ask for veteran mode. If the reason is increased difficulty, then this difficulty is already a reward, the sense of struggle and accomplishment. If the reason is rewards, then why not give these rewards in the game as it is now?

And the very first thing you should ask is what is the profit in it for ZOS. Why should ZOS spend money and time to develop something? What they will get in return? Do you think veteran content should be sold? How much all those players who ask for difficulty will pay for each veteran zone? The most likely answer is that it will end just like Craglorn (the majority of players do not want to pay so something they will struggle at and maybe will not be able to do) and vMA (the number of players who done it so small that they do not matter in the sense of profits).

The problem is most gamers don't understand that for niche product they should pay more, much more. If you look at other products, then you will see that there are niche products that are aimed at small audience, and they cost much more than products for big audience. This cost is also accompanied by better quality, because people do not want to pay more for less quality. Still, the main reason of the cost is small audience. This small audience combined should give at least the same amount as the big audience combined. With other products it works. Gamers are not ready to pay $600 for a niche game (or niche part of game), so developers work for the majority, for big audience.

Dusk_Coven

Sorry, the concept is short sighted and flawed.

-Where are the people who want harder overland now? Are they at the actually harder overland content like certain world bosses or not-very-popular-dragon-spots? Are you asking for something that you don't even use now?

-Or did the people who want harder overland content already do the existing harder content in overland and are bored now or moved on to something else? And you don't think they'd get bored of a harder overland mode once the novelty wears off or they "finish" it?

-Then are you going to ask for an even harder overland mode for new novelty? Or maybe someone else will, someone who's idea of "harder" exceeds yours. Keep ramping up the difficulty again and again with more versions until the content/challenge is impossible for most? Then start gathering bigger and bigger groups to mow it down and ask for big-group--harder-content? And finally when even that is exhausted by mobs you can't overcome, ask ZOS for a nerf?

The idea of wanting challenge is fine. But this concept of taking it to overland is flawed.
Not all content (e.g., overland) needs difficulty levels. That would escalate the amount of work and resources into same or similar-looking content.
There already exists a progression of content difficulty. With designed harder content and specific completion challenge achievements. These are all INSTANCED for a reason.
Game developers INSTANCE harder challenges. They control the environment, the number of players, the content -- to not only try to guarantee challenges (for people at different stages of levelling/gearing/gameplay experience) but completely new experiences to try to keep things fresh and keep you moving ahead with something different to look forward to. Not just literally "more" of the same like bigger mob sizes and meatier bosses that hit harder.

EXAMPLE of a REAL implementation of "veteran overland content" -- Secret World Legends. On many overland maps there is a special very-high-level zone of really killer mobs that you need a raid to handle. You do a specific repeatable quest chain there to get special loot and a chance to get an item that spawns an even tougher boss.
The key reason why that works is their overland is actually like a small INSTANCE. There is a CAP on the players in each instance -- around 14, or just a bit bigger than the maximum group size. It's not the same kind of huge-number-of-players-allowed overland here.
So what actually happens is that zone for endgamers works like a raid/trial -- controlled environment, controlled number of participants. But with the illusion of being "harder overland".

MMOs long recognized the reasonable solution for harder challenges targeted at veteran players is instanced content. In ESO we already have it as Dungeons and Trials.

***

As for STORY and quests -- these fights and key encounters (e.g., stealth missions) should all be INSTANCED and possibly with some aggressive difficulty scaling. They key is to INSTANCE them all so that other people can't come by and reduce your difficulty or ruin your experience. You invite only who you want and if you want to invite a lot of people to ruin your challenge instead of levelling up and gearing up, go ahead and do that too.

Iccotak

Olauron wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

I feel that you don't understand this game and this playerbase. Cosmetics is much more important than sets or skills. That's why houses and motifs are the most expensive both in crown store and in guild stores. That's why carry price for cosmetic skins are astronomical. That's why completion ratio of vMA is neglectable. You can place vMA or nMA weapons in the crown store right now, but outfits of these weapons would sell better.
That's why locking better gear behind veteran content is counterproductive (they are already powerful to do this content, you don't need making them even more powerful, this will cause power creep). And at the same time that's why locking better cosmetics behind veteran content is the kick in the face of the majority of paying customers.

an interesting take

I think you understand that I am not, in anyway, proposing better gear or more obtainable power for Veteran as that is what I clearly stated in the post and reiterated more than once in this thread. So I will address the point about cosmetics.

The quality of cosmetic would entirely depend on the challenge/achievement.

Example - Story Boss:
Completing all the challenges of the Veteran Molag Bal would give you a house.
Along your journey to get the "Challenger achievement" you could attain a skin & personality too, maybe a mount.

Example - Dolmens:
The achievements for Dolmens & World Bosses in "Normal" only require beating them once.
So for Veteran it might be more of a grind to beat them "X" number of times or to beat every Big Bad that comes out of the dolmen.

Point being that the cosmetic rewards would not be hand-outs, you would actually have to earn them through playing activities.
Some would be easy, some would be hard.

1. There are already cosmetics (like titles, polymorphs, and costumes) that can be earned in overland, leveling, events, and even for logging in. So saying to put more of that in the playable content is not drastic.
2. Players have been asking for more cosmetics that can be earned in-game to balance the amount available in the crown store.

This is why the achievements & challenges in the proposal are centered around repeatable content - rather than questing as handling Normal & Veteran instance questing would be a nightmare.

As I also said in the OP the reason I put those rewards behind the Veteran instance is a compromise.
Whenever people asked for a "Veteran Overland Mode" in the past the issue always comes down to handling rewards.

Many people don't want gear & money rewards for increased difficulty because they think that people are not looking really for a "challenge" but opportunity at an easier grind for gear & gold.
That it could lead to people leaving the Normal instance in droves to grind in Veteran.

This is understandable however, players are still going to want a reward of some sort for playing the harder content.
So the compromise I proposed is various cosmetic rewards.

I hardly view it as a kick in the face, but giving something to both new & long term players

RE: Story Boss
This will lead to the situation you claim you do not want ("The issue, as you may have seen, is that many people don't want gear & money rewards for increased difficulty because that could lead to people leaving Normal instance in droves"). People will leave normal for veteran in droves, because what is the point of doing the whole story on normal and then repeat it on veteran to get the house? And people will complain that it is too hard. You will simply get Craglorn v2, when everyone is in veteran for the cosmetics, struggle to go it and push developers to lower the difficulty.

If you read the Q&A you would know that you would not have to repeat the quest in Veteran mode as the repeatable story boss activity would be unlocked whether you did the story on normal or veteran.
The activity itself is only available in Veteran.

This is why I said to read the Q&A in the OP because many of the questions people have posed were already addressed in the that section.

RE: Dolmens
Do we really need even more grind? Do we really need the pain of farming the same dolmen bosses several times, when they are not linked to zones now? Crown crates are better than this, as they are at least fast to open.

I opted a "grind" as in beating it "X" number of times because I am thinking in the long term.
Like I said before this is not just for old player but also new players who get into the game.
Just like the antiquities system - When you add a new system you have to consider the long term engagement of that system not the immediate gratification.
The reason some people were miserable with antiquities is because they were trying to grind everything out at once when it was designed to be something you do as you play the rest of the game.

RE: Earning cosmetic rewards by playing
Why do you think ZOS puts in crown store or crown crates skins and mounts that are similar to rewards by playing? Yes, players have been asking, but you should look for the context. Players are usually asking for rewards that can actually be earned in game, not rewards that they will struggle to get for months (see vMA and HM trials).

What I proposed is various types of cosmetic rewards for various types of challenges & achievements.
That does not mean they are equally hard or on par with vMA & HM Trials. I clearly stated that previously.

Some would be easy, some would be hard.

RE: A reward of some sort
The first thing you should ask is why people ask for veteran mode. If the reason is increased difficulty, then this difficulty is already a reward, the sense of struggle and accomplishment. If the reason is rewards, then why not give these rewards in the game as it is now?

Again. I already addressed this point.
Whenever "Difficulty Settings" are discussed, rewards are inevitably brought up.
These leads to two sides
1. The Challenge is its own reward.
2. No One is going play something with no incentive.

People on this very thread said that the gear grind is essential to the cycle of gameplay while others don't want gameplay reward attached to difficulty at all.
This is why I went with this compromise. It still satisfies that feeling of earning something while not making the player more powerful or having an easier time at obtaining better gear.
Rather they get something they can show off which encourages people to play those activities.
The idea is to find a solution that works for both sides and is viable for the game.

The most likely answer is that it will end just like Craglorn (the majority of players do not want to pay so something they will struggle at and maybe will not be able to do)

Depends entirely on how it is executed.
If it copied Craglorn then yes I would agree but this only takes some ideas from it. It had some good ideas but goes too far.
I would argue that optional difficulties for overland and/or story is not as niche as you are making it out to be. It has been a subject of discussion for some time now.

EXAMPLE of a REAL implementation of "veteran overland content" -- Secret World Legends. On many overland maps there is a special very-high-level zone of really killer mobs that you need a raid to handle. You do a specific repeatable quest chain there to get special loot and a chance to get an item that spawns an even tougher boss.
The key reason why that works is their overland is actually like a small INSTANCE. There is a CAP on the players in each instance -- around 14, or just a bit bigger than the maximum group size. It's not the same kind of huge-number-of-players-allowed overland here.
So what actually happens is that zone for endgamers works like a raid/trial -- controlled environment, controlled number of participants. But with the illusion of being "harder overland".

Interesting

As for STORY and quests -- these fights and key encounters (e.g., stealth missions) should all be INSTANCED and possibly with some aggressive difficulty scaling. They key is to INSTANCE them all so that other people can't come by and reduce your difficulty or ruin your experience. You invite only who you want and if you want to invite a lot of people to ruin your challenge instead of leveling up and gearing up, go ahead and do that too.

@Dusk_Coven This is a reasonable compromise.

amm7sb14_ESO

Me: *reads title*

Me: "OH GOD YES!"

If overland / questing content was more challenging, I would probably actually do it.

Olauron

Iccotak wrote: »

If you read the Q&A you would know that you would not have to repeat the quest in Veteran mode as the repeatable story boss activity would be unlocked whether you did the story on normal or veteran.
The activity itself is only available in Veteran.

This is why I said to read the Q&A in the OP because many of the questions people have posed were already addressed in the that section.

That is not changing anything in the result that people will complain about content being too difficult for them to get a house.

Iccotak wrote: »

I opted a "grind" as in beating it "X" number of times because I am thinking in the long term.
Like I said before this is not just for old player but also new players who get into the game.
Just like the antiquities system - When you add a new system you have to consider the long term engagement of that system not the immediate gratification.
The reason some people were miserable with antiquities is because they were trying to grind everything out at once when it was designed to be something you do as you play the rest of the game.

There is no such thing as a long term engagement in the zones that are already completed. Antiquities offered more grind for such zones. There is nothing else to do in Rivenspire, for example, except harversting every node possible in hope of getting the lead. Because you can't 'play the rest of the game' in Western Skyrim and get a lead from Rivenspire.
Grinding the dolmen bosses is the same miserable experience in the zone you have nothing to do in. At least with Psijic quests you had to run once with 100% chance of completing the quest.

Iccotak wrote: »

What I proposed is various types of cosmetic rewards for various types of challenges & achievements.
That does not mean they are equally hard or on par with vMA & HM Trials. I clearly stated that previously.

Some would be easy, some would be hard.

RE: A reward of some sort
The first thing you should ask is why people ask for veteran mode. If the reason is increased difficulty, then this difficulty is already a reward, the sense of struggle and accomplishment. If the reason is rewards, then why not give these rewards in the game as it is now?

Again. I already addressed this point.
Whenever "Difficulty Settings" are discussed, rewards are inevitably brought up.
These leads to two sides
1. The Challenge is its own reward.
2. No One is going play something with no incentive.

People on this very thread said that the gear grind is essential to the cycle of gameplay while others don't want gameplay reward attached to difficulty at all.
This is why I went with this compromise. It still satisfies that feeling of earning something while not making the player more powerful or having an easier time at obtaining better gear.
Rather they get something they can show off which encourages people to play those activities.
The idea is to find a solution that works for both sides and is viable for the game.

It is not addressed, I fear. If people will not do something with no incentive, then it is an excellent reason to not waste time on implementing this something at all. If people will not do something with no incentive, then it is not fun in itself. Why would any developer waste time and resources to make some not fun (=bad) content and then waste even more resources to make incentives?

Iccotak wrote: »

I would argue that optional difficulties for overland and/or story is not as niche as you are making it out to be. It has been a subject of discussion for some time now.

vMA discussion has been active even more. It is so niche that even developers acknowledge it as 'very few players'.
New discussion every few weeks from the same people with the same participants is not something widely wanted. It is something wanted by the same few people.

Iccotak

If people will not do something with no incentive, then it is not fun in itself. Why would any developer waste time and resources to make some not fun (=bad) content and then waste even more resources to make incentives?

You have to do both.
It has to be fun and it has to reward you for your efforts.

personally I would love it if there were difficulty settings for the story bosses alone because I dislike how easy and casual they are.
However, if I were to add a whole new system then it has to have rewards, as every system in ESO does.

If we were to go with the suggestion that Dusk_Coven proposed

As for STORY and quests -- these fights and key encounters (e.g., stealth missions) should all be INSTANCED and possibly with some aggressive difficulty scaling. They key is to INSTANCE them all so that other people can't come by and reduce your difficulty or ruin your experience. You invite only who you want and if you want to invite a lot of people to ruin your challenge instead of leveling up and gearing up, go ahead and do that too.

The question is should ZOS add more sets? - Just higher quality sets from the zones? - Or should they just add cool cosmetics rewards for the experience?

WiseSky

I would love this Idea to be implemented

The only way I see it happening is by Adding ESO + + Additional 5$ more per month to access this for them to be able to implement it

For now I will stick to my self nerfing

Olauron

Iccotak wrote: »

If people will not do something with no incentive, then it is not fun in itself. Why would any developer waste time and resources to make some not fun (=bad) content and then waste even more resources to make incentives?

You have to do both.
It has to be fun and it has to reward you for your efforts.

Have to? Strange. When I am playing forum RPGs as a player or as a GM, I am not receiving any extra rewards. When I am playing tabletop RPGs as a player or as a DM, I am not receiving any extra rewards. When I am playing almost any single-player games, I am not receiving extra rewards based on difficulty. It is the opposite, as competent developers usually implement starting handicaps and (or) give the less XP the higher the difficulty.

WiseSky wrote: »

The only way I see it happening is by Adding ESO + + Additional 5$ more per month to access this for them to be able to implement it

Given the number of players having fun from veteran content compared to all players you will end at ESO++ for $150/month to make this profitable to develop.

Grianasteri

Some really good, well thought out ideas, for the most part.

The major issue with splitting Normal and Vet content for overland, via instance, is that you are splitting the player base and that is not something Zos are likely to be interested in...

The whole reason One Tamriel came about, was that the player base was split 3 ways. It would be regressive to implement a change that brings a new split.

I maintain that for any solo instance, upon entry players receive a prompt, Normal, Vet, HM. And the solo content proceeds on that basis, more or less with the increased difficulty you have described, more adds, more health, more damage, more mechs etc. This would mean that it takes more than a few seconds to kill final bosses which are the focus of the stories! This is the least that Zos should be implementing.

For overland content this is of course far more difficult to do without splitting the player base. Probably the only way to implement this now retrospectively, would be changes to the individual - so that we take more damage, do less damage, enemies have more health and deal more damage to YOU, therefore making the individuals experience more challenging. This has been done in games like Ghost Recon, and you can play with friends who are on different difficulty settings. This would allow guildies, friends, to play together, or for individuals to play through content, with increase challenge.

Dunno, its a catch 22. One thing is certain, overland/story content for experienced high CP players, is just a joke.
.

Iccotak

Recent podcast talked about this around 30 minutes into it.

https://www.loreseekerspodcast.com/loreseekers-vol-7-2-darkreach/

They make the point that the game should rise to meet you - not that you should have to handicap yourself in order to make it challenging again.

EDIT: A problem with having a handicap and sharing the instance with players who aren't using it is that it purposefully makes you less competent and useful. It discourages player progression.

Grianasteri

Iccotak wrote: »

Recent podcast talked about this around 30 minutes into it.

https://www.loreseekerspodcast.com/loreseekers-vol-7-2-darkreach/

They make the point that the game should rise to meet you - not that you should have to handicap yourself in order to make it challenging again.

EDIT: A problem with having a handicap and sharing the instance with players who aren't using it is that it purposefully makes you less competent and useful. It discourages player progression.

Indeed, this is one reason I do not really favour a system that, as you say, handicaps on an individual basis. But the horse has already bolted, its difficult to envision how increased difficulty can be added to overland that is after all designed with brand new, low skill, low experience players in mind.

If we were starting out, Id suggest that each zone has actual geographical areas where all the adds and bosses are vet, and then further perhaps to an even higher level of difficulty (vet really isn't that difficult for high CP experienced players, so we would need a "dlc" level of difficulty as well)... and the zone story would actually progress with these geographical areas in mind... so at the start the story has you in the easy areas. As you progress the story, it takes you to new, more difficult areas.... perhaps NOT including the 3rd tier of difficulty to complete the zone story, but having additional bonus story in that area. As I say, we cant really do this now, its too late. But its not like its a new concept, so many games already have this, big open maps, or even smaller levels, where parts of it hold more difficult enemies etc.

BKTHNDR

My only concern would be splitting the population. Right now, you can enter pretty much any zone and find people doing various activities. Having large portions of the population in separate instances will cause the world to feel much more empty.

While this might not be a big deal to some, the feeling of an active community does have an effect on the overall perception of a game's life.

Agalloch

Need a CP system like Paragon of Diablo3 but opened to everyone like Diablo does. Hard to implement..for sure Is like doing again One Tamriel.

idk

Iccotak wrote: »

Recent podcast talked about this around 30 minutes into it.

https://www.loreseekerspodcast.com/loreseekers-vol-7-2-darkreach/

They make the point that the game should rise to meet you - not that you should have to handicap yourself in order to make it challenging again.

EDIT: A problem with having a handicap and sharing the instance with players who aren't using it is that it purposefully makes you less competent and useful. It discourages player progression.

Just going off your paraphrase of the podcast I would say their thoughts are not going to happen. If Zos were to make it so players could choose to have a higher difficulty it is much more likely to be in the form of a debuff where they do less damage and take more damage when in the open world. The cost of reworking most NPCs in the game as is suggested is extremely high with very little reason to think it would bring about a worthy return on revenue since the game is already bursting with players. I understand the desire to fantasize but seems more practical to deal with ideas might have a chance vs a pipe dream.

Taleof2Cities

Iccotak wrote: »

Recent podcast talked about this around 30 minutes into it.

https://www.loreseekerspodcast.com/loreseekers-vol-7-2-darkreach/

They make the point that the game should rise to meet you - not that you should have to handicap yourself in order to make it challenging again.

EDIT: A problem with having a handicap and sharing the instance with players who aren't using it is that it purposefully makes you less competent and useful. It discourages player progression.

This makes total sense, @Iccotak, except that players don’t participate in the progression content that already exists in the game.

Once players complete the challenging content that exists in ESO, then we can talk about “Overland Veteran”.