ESO Overland Veteran Mode

Anumaril

coercer02neb18_ESO wrote: »

Haven’t read the entire post but would absolutely love an increased difficulty for overland content; don’t even care for rewards or anything like that, just want to feel a sense of challenge.

This is also how I feel. I don't care for rewards, I just wan't to actually have a challenge when questing.

idk

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Recent podcast talked about this around 30 minutes into it.

https://www.loreseekerspodcast.com/loreseekers-vol-7-2-darkreach/

They make the point that the game should rise to meet you - not that you should have to handicap yourself in order to make it challenging again.

EDIT: A problem with having a handicap and sharing the instance with players who aren't using it is that it purposefully makes you less competent and useful. It discourages player progression.

This makes total sense, @Iccotak, except that players don’t participate in the progression content that already exists in the game.

Once players complete the challenging content that exists in ESO, then we can talk about “Overland Veteran”.

A very good point as it speaks to the value, or lack of it, for the effort of reworking all combat NPCs in ESO.

Iccotak

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Recent podcast talked about this around 30 minutes into it.

https://www.loreseekerspodcast.com/loreseekers-vol-7-2-darkreach/

They make the point that the game should rise to meet you - not that you should have to handicap yourself in order to make it challenging again.

EDIT: A problem with having a handicap and sharing the instance with players who aren't using it is that it purposefully makes you less competent and useful. It discourages player progression.

This makes total sense, @Iccotak, except that players don’t participate in the progression content that already exists in the game.

Once players complete the challenging content that exists in ESO, then we can talk about “Overland Veteran”.

This is coming from a long term player who does dungeons and trials. Someone that does participate in the progression content.

Rewards aside, if just the Story Bosses had difficulty options I would be happier and more excited about the stories.
I have no issue cutting the idea down to focus only on story bosses encounters as overland is a separate issue.

When the story bosses are built up to be the ultimate big bad but present no actual challenge (not even an option) takes away from the experience, because a victory that feels handed to me makes the story overall worse off.
Like I said in a previous post

Players want their efforts to feel necessary as well as their rewards & praise to feel earned.

The "Savior of Elsweyr" just isn't a title that feels worth wearing because it doesn't feel earned, it feels like a participation trophy

and btw this is coming from someone that was self-nerfed for the final story boss fights of all Elsweyr and Dragonhold - did not make it any better because it is purposefully designed for new players. I know that ZOS is capable of making more mechanically interesting solo content and it would be nice to see that as an option for story bosses.
I can say that the experience left me less excited for Greymoor and even 2021.

Luke_Flamesword

It would be nice to have at least veteran delves with difficulty of Craglorn group delves. It's easy to make (you choose difficulty at entrance or it's adjusted to you dungeon finder option) and don't make overall zone empty. I think that will be give better experience for new players, because a lot of them don't like that 810 CP clears any mobs in seconds, so they can't fight anything...

We have already a lot of delves so only this gives a lot of veteran content for any "challenge-thirsty" players.

Sevn

I'm not against a Vet overworld "mode", however keep in mind it won't be implemented anything like what players envision. It will be in the form of a simple debuff, a reverse Battle Spirit if you will. They do more damage and have more health.

They simply are not going spend the time and resources to redo fighting mechanics of all the various enemies in old zones or creating new instances for every zone for little to zero profits. They certainly don't want to split up the playerbase either. That's the reality of the situation.

Which is why the suggestion to just debuff yourselves is constantly being reiterated because that's the most likely end result anyway.

Iccotak

Sevn wrote: »

I'm not against a Vet overworld "mode", however keep in mind it won't be implemented anything like what players envision. It will be in the form of a simple debuff, a reverse Battle Spirit if you will. They do more damage and have more health.

They simply are not going spend the time and resources to redo fighting mechanics of all the various enemies in old zones or creating new instances for every zone for little to zero profits. They certainly don't want to split up the playerbase either. That's the reality of the situation.

Which is why the suggestion to just debuff yourselves is constantly being reiterated because that's the most likely end result anyway.

I can understand that and I can say that the idea is rather large and can be pruned.

However, an optional debuff in the same instance as the rest of the players is a terrible mechanic and I think I explained pretty well as to why that is.
The game should make the content harder, not make the player weaker - making the player weaker in order to make the content harder goes against the concept of player progression and how progression works in this game.

The Optional debuff would be a band-aid at best that would not satisfy anyone because that would just make fights tedious, not harder, the same could be said if you only buff the enemies stats.

Trash mobs aside and focusing on main story alone; Current Story Bosses are specifically designed for new players. Not just stats wise, but also mechanically they are extremely simple and require next to no thought.

If you make a new difficulty for just the story bosses you would have to update them with new mechanics that could actually present some form of a challenge, otherwise they just become longer - not tougher.

An optional debuff is not a solution because it doesn't solve the problem, it just highlights it.

Sevn

Iccotak wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

I'm not against a Vet overworld "mode", however keep in mind it won't be implemented anything like what players envision. It will be in the form of a simple debuff, a reverse Battle Spirit if you will. They do more damage and have more health.

They simply are not going spend the time and resources to redo fighting mechanics of all the various enemies in old zones or creating new instances for every zone for little to zero profits. They certainly don't want to split up the playerbase either. That's the reality of the situation.

Which is why the suggestion to just debuff yourselves is constantly being reiterated because that's the most likely end result anyway.

I can understand that and I can say that the idea is rather large and can be pruned.

However, an optional debuff in the same instance as the rest of the players is a terrible mechanic and I think I explained pretty well as to why that is.
The game should make the content harder, not make the player weaker - making the player weaker in order to make the content harder goes against the concept of player progression and how progression works in this game.

The Optional debuff would be a band-aid at best that would not satisfy anyone because that would just make fights tedious, not harder, the same could be said if you only buff the enemies stats.

Trash mobs aside and focusing on main story alone; Current Story Bosses are specifically designed for new players. Not just stats wise, but also mechanically they are extremely simple and require next to no thought.

If you make a new difficulty for just the story bosses you would have to update them with new mechanics that could actually present some form of a challenge, otherwise they just become longer - not tougher.

An optional debuff is not a solution because it doesn't solve the problem, it just highlights it.

I agree with what you stated, still doesn't change the fact ZOS has proven time and time again they will take the path of least resistance which in this case is a optional debuff hence why I stated it will not function as you have envisioned.

They are not going to update old content with new mechanics. Just look at VMa as the latest example, same old content, new rewards. That's it. That's what should be expected by all who are clamoring for a Vet overworld mode.

Grianasteri

Agalloch wrote: »

Need a CP system like Paragon of Diablo3 but opened to everyone like Diablo does. Hard to implement..for sure Is like doing again One Tamriel.

OMG don't mention Paragon. I am still traumatised… That is one of gaming histories most tragic stories.

An absolutely groundbreaking hybrid of 1st/3rd person shooting with "League of Legends" lane combat... destroyed by a drive to make it into an esport, with traditional LoL players relentlessly campaigning to change the game more into a LoL type game... when that is NOT what it was or what its strength was.

Heartbreaking to watch that game gradually lose its USP then finally fail.

Zyrudin

Iccotak wrote: »

NOTES:
->The changes in the Veteran Zone setting would be optional and not applied to Normal Zones, Dungeons, Trials, or PvP.
->Please make sure to read the Q&A at the end as it might answer some questions and concerns you may have after you’re finished reading.

To Preface:
We know that the Developers are talking about difficulty options for overland & story content.

From Reddit about 1 year ago
Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bwdb0r/comment/epwrb9x
Text of answer

ZOS_MattF
Hello! We have no plans on implementing spears, but we have talked off and on about cool ways to do the one hand magic/one hand weapon thing. That's not on our roadmap anywhere, but we have been brainstorming.

There are so many cool things we could do! Seriously, we love these ideas too, but it all comes down to a matter of time and priorities.

EDIT: to respond to your edit. Yes, we've talked about this, in fact we tried to get that into the game as part of One Tamriel, but we just couldn't get it done. So we have ideas on how to have difficulty settings for overland content, but it's not currently planned. It's a great idea.

So this is Not a discussion on "if" they should do it.
This is my proposal of what a Veteran difficulty setting option for Overland content could look like.

Veteran Mode for Zones
This is a separate instance of existing zones but with harder content.
The reason this veteran zone is a separate instance is because it takes some inspiration from the “Adventure Zone” concept, that ZOS tried a while ago in Craglorn, but with some tweaks & adjustments and applies it to the existing zones.

Players of any level can enter this instance but are warned that the content is harder and might need friends to help complete some of the areas in the game.
Solo is still a viable play style but it will be harder than it is in the “Normal Zone” instance. Also Players can still do the story on their own in Veteran until the Final Boss.
So if a player feels that the current content is too easy and want more challenge in their overland/story experience - they can check out Veteran Zones.

This Veteran Zone includes the following
Meaning;
- Larger enemy mobs
- Enemies have more health & deal more damage
- Enemies have greater range of detection
- Enemies have more mechanics/tactics/abilities
- Veteran Delve Bosses
- Veteran World Bosses that scale up to more players than in Normal
- Veteran Dolmens that scale up to more players than in Normal
- Veteran Story Bosses are hard group activities (more health & damage dealt, more mechanics + a Hard Mode)

Overland Content Changes
Enemies, Delves, Dolmens, and World bosses

Changes would have to be made to the enemies in order to make the overland more exciting.
Meaning that enemies will have to be Tougher. Not just more health & more damage dealt.

They will have access to more abilities, including ultimates, and tactics along with the removal certain cues that were available in normal overland.
For example: the red path indicator that an enemy is about to charge you would no longer be visible and they would charge at you about 50% faster than they do in normal.

Sometimes a mob leader will be of higher status. So a mini boss can actually be encountered in the wild. Like a “Bandit Chief”.

The Coldharbour spawns in the vanilla zones include more enemies.

Tougher monsters will be littered throughout the zone, like we see in Craglorn with mobs that include Atronachs
Example: Veteran Murkmire will have large Voriplasm monsters, Wamasu & Argonian Behemoths wandering certain parts of the zone.
Imagine a Voriplasm Wamasu Skeleton monster.

With those changes Delves will be tougher without necessarily needing to increase the population too much.

Dolmens & World Bosses will scale to greater amount of players. This way it is much harder to cheese the encounters.
Dragons are going to have to use more abilities and use them more frequently.

Just some examples of how encounters could be “tougher” and not just “longer”.

Changes to the Story Bosses?
Many Endgame Players, including myself, are tired of Story Bosses that are designed for casual players which can be easily dispatched. It’s hard to care about the story when the final antagonist can be beaten in 2 seconds.
So in Veteran Mode, the Main Antagonists are memorable experiences that live up the how the stories build them up.

In Veteran Mod the Story Boss encounters are essentially re-done to convert them into Repeatable Dungeons & Trials. Q2 & Q4 quest bosses would become dungeons, while the Season Story Boss would be a Trial. These encounters would not be something that players could queue for but would have to seek aid in/out of game. These dungeons & trials are for challenge so they will not have a normal mode nor will they have gear sets.
These bosses are the end goal to test your mettle from all the work you’ve done so the only rewards from these encounters are cosmetic to show off your accomplishment.

If a player wants the solo story boss experience then they can play the “Normal Zone” setting.
(EDIT: Is there room for Vet Solo story bosses? Of course.)

NOTES:
- This does not apply to the Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood DLCs. Those bosses will be harder but they will NOT be converted to group content.
- In Veteran Mode, the Craglorn Zone will be reverted to making the Trials necessary to complete the whole main story quest line.


Dungeons & Trials: Full Break-Down

NEW group activities
Planemeld

Trial: The God of Schemes - Make your way to Molag Bal and defeat the God of Schemes

Orsinium

Dungeon: Scarp Keep - Stop King Kurog from killing the Orc Clan Chiefs

Daedric War

Dungeon: The Clockwork Vault - Defeat Barbas in the Clockwork City to restore Vivec

Dungeon: Cogitum Centralis - Find the Shadow of Sotha Sil and stop him before the Clockwork city is lost forever

Dungeon: The Crystal Tower - stop Nocturnal before she uses the tower to remake reality.

The Reason that the Final boss in Summerset is not a Trial (even though Nocturnal is the end of the arc) is because the Daedric War Arc was not part of the Seasonal Model that Zenimax went with in the following year

Murkmire

Dungeon: Vakka-Bok Xanmeer - Prevent Kassandra from acquiring the Remnant of Argon

Season of the Dragon

Dungeon: Jode's Core - Defend Jode's core and defeat Mulaamnir to save Northern Elsweyr

Dungeon: Doomstone Keep - Assist Nahfahlar end his feud with Laatvulon to save Southern Elsweyr

Trial: Dragonhold - Journey to Dragonhold and Defeat Kaalgrontiid to save Tamriel

Question of Rewards
In past discussion one of the major issues with “Veteran Overland” that people have brought up is players using Vet mode for farming gear more efficiently, this would create an extreme divide in player base and leave the normal zones empty.
In my opinion the current gear reward system in Normal is already very good and if the goal is challenge then increased monetary reward should not be the priority. So Veteran mode for Overland will NOT provide any advantage in obtaining better gear.
If a player wants to grind for gear in the zones then Normal mode would be more efficient. This way there is not a drastic split in the PvE player base.

Also players with existing characters who have already completed the zones & quests have no reason to return so, besides gear, what would make players interested in going back? Add things that allows players to show off their achievements, that’s a better long term reward than farming gear which has stats that could change under any given update.

Just like Dungeons & Trials - Add Achievements & Cosmetics that can be obtained through gameplay.
In the base game make an achievement for completing the challenges for each faction in Veteran mode: Ebonheart Pact, Daggerfall Covenant, & Aldmeri Dominion
Then apply this system to current & future DLC content

Make a list of achievements for each Boss & Group content of each zone.
- Beat X number of Y type Enemies
- Beat all Vet Delves
- Beat the Vet Public Dungeon
- Beat all Vet World Bosses
- Beat all Vet Dolmens (or beat them X number of times)
- Beat the Vet Story Boss

Add achievements for the Story Boss to make players want to go back and repeat the fight
- Speed run
- No Death
- Hard Mode
Something like we see in dungeons & trials
Image Example of achievement challenges for the Fang Lair Dungeon

What kind of obtainable cosmetics? Like Dungeons & Trials we would be able to obtain;
- Titles
- Colors
- Head items (hat, hair, facial hair, face markings, adornments, etc)
- Skins
- Costumes
- Signature Motifs
- Collectibles
- Furniture
- Pets
- Personalities
- Mounts
- House

Overall this would provide a lot of re-playability.

Final
This would require more effort and investment from the developers but I think this system would do the following;
- Provides more challenge for all players
- Encourages players to work together and socialize.
- Makes the story experience more enjoyable & engaging for long term endgame players, where the main antagonist is a memorable experience that fulfills the build up the of the story.
- Adds more cosmetics that can be obtained through gameplay.
- Adds a system which works to close the skill gap by encouraging players to venture out of their comfort zone.
- Adds re-playability to content.
- Overall adds more to the game which increases the value of existing & future content.

Q&A
Please check this section as some of your questions may have already been answered here.

Q. I’ve already completed the zones, will I have to do the story all over again with an existing character? Can I still obtain the rewards?
A.You will not have to repeat overland story content with an existing character in Vet mode. If you’ve already completed a Zone in Normal then it will be completed in Veteran.
The Veteran achievements and rewards are specific to repeatable overland content.
So Veteran Overland achievements & rewards can still be accomplished with an existing character, even if that player has already completed it on Normal.

To be clear you will not get the rewards for completing the challenges on normal, it has to be done in the veteran instance.

Q. Can I still solo in Veteran Zones?
A.You can certainly try, although the content is going to demand more of you than it does in normal.
A point of Veteran zones is to make a group play style more viable in overland. So while players certainly can solo the content they will also have a better reason to find a friend(s) to play with. Allowing for challenges as well as more reason to play together.

With that said none of the story, except for the final boss, requires the player to be in a group.

Q.Why not just use a de-buff in the normal zone?
A.This is a three-part answer.
First. A de-buff boils down to putting in unto the player to make the game harder when it is the game that should be making the content harder for the player.
The players should not have to Nerf themselves in order to make overland & story more challenging and/or enjoyable.

Second. Opting for a De-buff in a normal zone is opting to make yourself useless in comparison to casual/new players. This would result in casual players outpacing their more powerful peers within the same instance.
What if you were in a group but were the only one with a de-buff? Your party would most likely tell you to turn it off.

Imagine if a group of de-buffed players were outdone by a casual player, that is not fun or motivating in the slightest. It also doesn’t work to bridge the skill gap at all.
There is no allure in putting a handicap on yourself.

A veteran instance would be better because it would be a harder for everyone making it an even playing ground, which everyone there chose to participate in.
The content should be in such a way that players are motivated to get more powerful and skilled in the game.
Which leads to the third point.

Third. In order to make overland more engaging for people seeking a challenge, whether casual or veteran, as well as better prepare new players for harder content then the enemies need to be in larger mobs while also using more mechanics & abilities.

Essentially, in order to make them work in Veteran Zones, the changes to enemies would be incompatible with Normal Zones.

Q. Why not have gear rewards that are of higher tier when participating in Veteran Overland?
A. Two part answer.
1. The reward system is already in a good place. Also, players would leave “normal mode” in droves because Veteran offered higher tier rewards allowing for more efficient grind - this would leave normal mode redundant.
2. The single player titles never offered more reward for switching difficulty. The increased difficulty provided incentive to get better at the game. That is the goal of Veteran Zones - incentive for players to get better.

So not only is the cosmetic rewards system a good middle ground but it also gives what many players have been asking for - more cosmetics that can be obtained in through game activities.

Q.Why add any reward at all?
A.
1. Because very few people would play for the challenge alone.
2. ZOS understands this which is why they would never implement an activity that offers no reward.

Q. Will the group mode of story bosses be accessible in the normal zones
A.The group content for Story Bosses (Story dungeons & trials) will NOT be accessible in Normal mode.
There is no difficulty setting for this group content and you cannot queue for it.
They will be hard, challenging, and full of trial & error as to make the experiences memorable.
Also, Just like Dungeons & Trials, Story Bosses will have a Hard Mode Scroll for a foe worth bragging about.
Story Bosses are truly end game content in Veteran mode, so if a player is not ready then they can come back at a later time.

Q.Why did you change the story bosses into group content?
A.This is an MMO and a threat to Tamriel should feel like it. Like I said before; a point of Veteran mode is to make Group style play more viable for guilds & friends as well as to encourage them to be social.
The story bosses in normal were already easy mini-group content so this mode takes them to their top potential.

Keeping in line with the logic of a Veteran zone in this proposal - they don’t have gear rewards, only cosmetic for achievements accomplished.

Making content that is exclusive to Veteran Mode which offers cosmetic rewards would encourage players to try out the Veteran Zone.
This encouragement and exposure would help bridge the gap between Casual and Endgame.

Q.Is there room for a Veteran Solo Story Boss?
A.I don’t see why not, it would have to work differently compared to group mode as well as have its own achievements & rewards separate from group mode.

Q.Could ZOS make a new PvP Cyrodil map instance with Veteran Overland settings?
A.I don’t see why not, the questions would be; if players want that and how that could work with Imperial City?

Q.If Veteran mode in Overland doesn’t work exactly like Veteran dungeons & trials could it have a different name?
A.I used “normal” & “veteran” terminology to effectively communicate the idea.
Idea for new words
Normal setting = Adventurer
Veteran setting = Champion

Oh, you mean "sort of" like pre-One Tamriel
I agree with this change, I am still from the time where you could die to a mudcrab you were underlevelled for, if I went there without having raised to the proper level.