ESO Game Performance Work Communication

relentless_turnip

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/535282/performance-issues-submit-your-clips-here#latest

I started a thread here for performance related clips. Anyone that has clips that might highlight or help identify issues should post here 👍

Thechuckage

I called it.

Thought the patch notes were going to be sparse but you have exceeded my expectations. Calling the fixes "thin" would be an understatement.

Nomad1098

Woah, its 2016 again. We've heard this all before. Hoping for the best, expecting nothing.

Nomad1098

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

Honestly after all the deleted threads, ignored feedback, and aimless direction pertaining to customer needs....

How else do you improve the image to investors? By producing quality? No way, remove any criticism and ignore what people want for industry trends.

Slyclone

I really love this game. And I know that they can do better with quality. Because I have seen perfect systems in the game.

So do that.

Elsonso

Slyclone wrote: »

I really love this game. And I know that they can do better with quality. Because I have seen perfect systems in the game.

So do that.

Yeah, but even the perfected system wasn't showing the cards, and they had to fix it.

Slyclone

Elsonso wrote: »

Slyclone wrote: »

I really love this game. And I know that they can do better with quality. Because I have seen perfect systems in the game.

So do that.

Yeah, but even the perfected system wasn't showing the cards, and they had to fix it.

Yes, I agree that certain systems that were indeed perfect last year are now broken.

Sound, voiceover specifically.

Update 24 is where I believe some things started to meltdown.

I still love this game. But I ask as a customer for a 6 month time slot to fix every single bug in the game, and a real plan that includes a 6 month delay on the next year's chapter release.

Edit: Call it an investment. Don't be greedy.

Elsonso

Slyclone wrote: »

Edit: Call it an investment.

Do not think of this game as an "investment". It is not. It is sold "as-is" and with no expectation of future "returns".

kyle.wilson

4 years we've been promised performance improvements, right now it is close to the worst its ever been.

Slyclone

Elsonso wrote: »

Slyclone wrote: »

Edit: Call it an investment.

Do not think of this game as an "investment". It is not. It is sold "as-is" and with no expectation of future "returns".

I think it's fair to say "as is" is not good enough at this point. Based on the sheer amount of critisism.

It's just a tiny bug....... but that one could be the one that caused the ripple effect you have released.

Fix them all, ZOS.

It's only fair.

I'll support you during this time.

You have until next March.

*hugs*

Keep up the good work on the stuff that works as intended.

Czekoludek

So just to clarify, players for years now complains about cyro performance and you just now created special team to analyse the root of the problems there? After 3+ years of cyro bad performance and more then a year of cyro unplayable performance during prime time?

Elsonso

Czekoludek wrote: »

So just to clarify, players for years now complains about cyro performance and you just now created special team to analyse the root of the problems there? After 3+ years of cyro bad performance and more then a year of cyro unplayable performance during prime time?

Apparently, this team has been in place for a while. (This is not the first they have mentioned it)

Czekoludek

Elsonso wrote: »

Czekoludek wrote: »

So just to clarify, players for years now complains about cyro performance and you just now created special team to analyse the root of the problems there? After 3+ years of cyro bad performance and more then a year of cyro unplayable performance during prime time?

Apparently, this team has been in place for a while. (This is not the first they have mentioned it)

I know they have ppl working on performance for some time now but i think it is the first time they mentioned the whole team focusing mainly on cyro problems. Are you sure they mentioned that before?

DBA

It's fascinating how all this time has gone by and there's not as much as a breakdown of where the issues are. Is it lack of server (physical) capacity? Is it net code? Something else?

Odds are that it's a bit of everything. Problem is that there's 0 communication to articulate what the problems are, how they will be prioritized, and fixed.

Elsonso

DBA wrote: »

It's fascinating how all this time has gone by and there's not as much as a breakdown of where the issues are. Is it lack of server (physical) capacity? Is it net code? Something else?

Lambert described it as an onion. They peel back one layer, then start working on the next. I guess when the onion is gone, they are either successful, or they give up.

Sargesgaming

Still no link and still no word on what they are doing here.... hmmm @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Thoragaal

Sargesgaming wrote: »

Still no link and still no word on what they are doing here.... hmmm @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

"Starting with Update 27, we will post a preview [...]" it's still some time before update 27 is here.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

Elsonso wrote: »

Lambert described it as an onion. They peel back one layer, then start working on the next. I guess when the onion is gone, they are either successful, or they give up.

Sadly, that's a bad analogy. I hope that was just something he said to explain that it takes time, and that they are being thorough. However, I certainly hope that the work as a whole is not actually being performed as if they were figuratively peeling an onion, because that would be bad.

To identify the weak points of a complex system, you need to look at the big picture right from the start. "Peeling it", i.e. dealing with each layer separately in a predetermined order, improving one system at a time to see whether it makes things any better, is a potential huge waste of time, where you might end up spending lots of time and effort on trying to fix things that already work just fine. If, say, the core is rotten (not saying it is, just keeping with the onion analogy), you need to determine that early in the process and focus most of your effort on that. The "layers" here are not physical layers, it's just a set of connected systems. One layer does not hide another, and there is nothing that actually prevents you from changing the "core" without touching the "surface".

From our point of view as end users, everything but the outermost layer, the user interface, is indeed hidden, and we have to make more or less educated guesses as to what might be the actual underlying problem. However, from the point of view of the system designers, every layer should be equally visible and accessible at all times. Large IT systems should be designed with profiling and monitoring capabilities built into them, and I'm not inclined to think that a game as complex as ESO was designed entirely without consideration to best practices. While game programmers tend to be less disciplined and less reined-in by formal process than in many other parts of the software industry (and I'm speaking from broad personal experience here), I doubt that a "coding like it's 1995" approach would have resulted in a functioning product. (And before you take a cheap shot and say that ESO isn't "a functioning product", it is. It may not work quite as well as we would want it to, but it most certainly isn't completely broken.)

Well, that was a rant. Sorry. I blame my job. Now I'm back to playing the game.

relentless_turnip

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Lambert described it as an onion. They peel back one layer, then start working on the next. I guess when the onion is gone, they are either successful, or they give up.

Sadly, that's a bad analogy. I hope that was just something he said to explain that it takes time, and that they are being thorough. However, I certainly hope that the work as a whole is not actually being performed as if they were figuratively peeling an onion, because that would be bad.

To identify the weak points of a complex system, you need to look at the big picture right from the start. "Peeling it", i.e. dealing with each layer separately in a predetermined order, improving one system at a time to see whether it makes things any better, is a potential huge waste of time, where you might end up spending lots of time and effort on trying to fix things that already work just fine. If, say, the core is rotten (not saying it is, just keeping with the onion analogy), you need to determine that early in the process and focus most of your effort on that. The "layers" here are not physical layers, it's just a set of connected systems. One layer does not hide another, and there is nothing that actually prevents you from changing the "core" without touching the "surface".

From our point of view as end users, everything but the outermost layer, the user interface, is indeed hidden, and we have to make more or less educated guesses as to what might be the actual underlying problem. However, from the point of view of the system designers, every layer should be equally visible and accessible at all times. Large IT systems should be designed with profiling and monitoring capabilities built into them, and I'm not inclined to think that a game as complex as ESO was designed entirely without consideration to best practices. While game programmers tend to be less disciplined and less reined-in by formal process than in many other parts of the software industry (and I'm speaking from broad personal experience here), I doubt that a "coding like it's 1995" approach would have resulted in a functioning product. (And before you take a cheap shot and say that ESO isn't "a functioning product", it is. It may not work quite as well as we would want it to, but it most certainly isn't completely broken.)

Well, that was a rant. Sorry. I blame my job. Now I'm back to playing the game.

I found it to be good read and a very reasonable set of observations. 👍

KoultouraS

This thread is just marketing and a typical loss control on behalf of ZO$.
Devoted playerbase being here since beta or the past 4 + years is running very thin since every day more and more abandon the ship.
Newcomers hear, read and mostly experience the ridiculous state this game is running on lately and need some reassuring.
No wonder why this kind of threads appear right when the game meets high/or highest recorded traffic.
Just remember when was the last time such a thread was posted despite the desperate calls from the rest of us for betterment of the communication throughout the year...

Elsonso

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Lambert described it as an onion. They peel back one layer, then start working on the next. I guess when the onion is gone, they are either successful, or they give up.

Sadly, that's a bad analogy. I hope that was just something he said to explain that it takes time, and that they are being thorough. However, I certainly hope that the work as a whole is not actually being performed as if they were figuratively peeling an onion, because that would be bad.

To identify the weak points of a complex system, you need to look at the big picture right from the start. "Peeling it", i.e. dealing with each layer separately in a predetermined order, improving one system at a time to see whether it makes things any better, is a potential huge waste of time, where you might end up spending lots of time and effort on trying to fix things that already work just fine.

Well, you have to remember that it is an analogy. In this case, it is a means of expressing a complicated technical situation in terms that can be understood by people who don't have the background to understand the complicated technical situation. A lot gets lost in the analogy, which is sort of the point. To the people who might be able to understand, they can determine that ZOS is probably doing X, Y, and Z. For everyone else, they wonder why Lambert is talking about vegetables.

virtus753

Elsonso wrote: »

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Lambert described it as an onion. They peel back one layer, then start working on the next. I guess when the onion is gone, they are either successful, or they give up.

Sadly, that's a bad analogy. I hope that was just something he said to explain that it takes time, and that they are being thorough. However, I certainly hope that the work as a whole is not actually being performed as if they were figuratively peeling an onion, because that would be bad.

To identify the weak points of a complex system, you need to look at the big picture right from the start. "Peeling it", i.e. dealing with each layer separately in a predetermined order, improving one system at a time to see whether it makes things any better, is a potential huge waste of time, where you might end up spending lots of time and effort on trying to fix things that already work just fine.

Well, you have to remember that it is an analogy. In this case, it is a means of expressing a complicated technical situation in terms that can be understood by people who don't have the background to understand the complicated technical situation. A lot gets lost in the analogy, which is sort of the point. To the people who might be able to understand, they can determine that ZOS is probably doing X, Y, and Z. For everyone else, they wonder why Lambert is talking about vegetables.

Part of the art of using analogies is finding a good one, though, which also means one that’s readily accessible to a broad audience. If the fundamental points of comparison don’t exist, as seems to be the case here, then it’s a bad analogy: it gives a false or misleading impression because two things with no relevant similarities are being compared. Proper analogies should have core identifiable similarities that adequately correspond, otherwise it defeats the point of using them. A good analogy does not lose anything “in translation,” so to speak. The point should be relevant and clear.

If this process doesn’t resemble peeling back surface layers to get at the ones below, then why mention an onion at all? Where is the point of relevant and fundamental similarity? If there is none, then the analogy loses everything and ceases to have meaning. If there is one, but it isn’t what “peeling an onion” is typically associated with, then we need further explanation — and certainly a much better comparandum.

Android_Archer

If I believed this was anything more than the lip service that's been offered more times than I can count at this point, I might get excited. I am not excited. Your words mean nothing, ZOS. Your actions are all that matter. In fact, I'm so tired of the empty promises, I'd just as soon hear less from you, IF saying less meant they were actually DOING more. Frankly, I think empty promises are worse then empty silence.

Miswar

How is this so called "performance plan " going in developers eyes?

Thus far there are plenty of below stuff:

* Desyns which are horrendeous
* Player skills simply not doing ANYTHING
* The lag is worst that it has ever been in pvp and pve
* There are tons of loading screens which have increased
* The game seems to "freeze" often and either crash or continue

etc etc etc.... It so absurd in ps4 that its not even funny.

Thus how has this performance project failed so miserably? Could you enlighten us.

Nomad1098

Hey, just had 4000 ping in a trial, wondering when we're gonna get the release version of the game?

relentless_turnip

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/535282/performance-issues-submit-your-clips-here#latest

Check out the last video in this thread... Desyncs are insane. I was pressing skills, roll dodging and trying to bar swap for at least 10 seconds before I decided to clip it. You'll notice I appear dead where I was 15 seconds a go 😂

WySoSirius

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/535926/are-you-aware-that-the-pvp-servers-in-cyro-cant-handle-high-population-spots#latest

NaviS

I will not bother to read anything because i probably read them again FOR THE PAST 6 YEARS!!!PERFORMANCE WORK COMMUNICATION? You have got to be joking!!! The forum is full of "work comunication comments FOR 6 YEARS NOW! Have you entered Cyrodil any time this weekend??????? Did you manage to press a skill??? It has been 6 YEARS ! WE ARE NOT IN THE BETA ANYMORE!!! [snip]

[Edited to remove Bashing]

relentless_turnip

NaviS wrote: »

I will not bother to read anything because i probably read them again FOR THE PAST 6 YEARS!!!PERFORMANCE WORK COMMUNICATION? You have got to be joking!!! The forum is full of "work comunication comments FOR 6 YEARS NOW! Have you entered Cyrodil any time this weekend??????? Did you manage to press a skill??? It has been 6 YEARS ! WE ARE NOT IN THE BETA ANYMORE!!! [snip]

I like the part where you sugar coated it 😂

ImmortalCX

Communication about communication isn't exactly communication.