The StamDK problem in 3 acts (and how to fix it in 1)

Beffagorn

@OBJnoob

Considering you thought Corrosive Armor worked with dots, you are in no position to call someone a liar when your knowledge is, apparently, very restrictive when it comes to Stamdks

My numbers (not tooltips) come from testing in CP pvp. Go pvp with it, for an extended amount of time with whatever set you want. I used 5 Fury 5 Shacklebreaker 2 Bloodspawn and those are the numbers i got, but whatever set you use it's not going to change the fact that Dswing hits for much harder and is overall superior.

wheem_ESO

Beffagorn wrote: »

@OBJnoob

Considering you thought Corrosive Armor worked with dots, you are in no position to call someone a liar when your knowledge is, apparently, very restrictive when it comes to Stamdks

My numbers (not tooltips) come from testing in CP pvp. Go pvp with it, for an extended amount of time with whatever set you want. I used 5 Fury 5 Shacklebreaker 2 Bloodspawn and those are the numbers i got, but whatever set you use it's not going to change the fact that Dswing hits for much harder and is overall superior.

Considering the OPness of Dizzying Swing, I don't think it should really be used as a measuring stick. I'm not saying that Stonefist is some kind of super amazing ability or anything, but if Dizzying Swing is going to be considered the standard for spammables, we're going to need some pretty huge buffs for numerous different Magicka abilities, along with a few different Stamina class-morphs as well (including, but not limited to, Stonefist).

Ragnarock41

OBJnoob wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Fixing stonefist is as simple as making the rest of the ability melee aswell. It would be presentable then. As for the guy up there who is basically saying ''range equals mobility'', I'm sorry to inform you that you'd be the laughing stock of cyrodiil with that mindset..

Cyrodiil is pretty toxic and I’m sure half of them would laugh. The other half would agree with me because when they said mobility they didn’t secretly mean “run away.”

And the guy right above me is changing his gear when he changes his skills or just 100% lying about his tooltips. I just had to log on to look at my screen while I say what I’m about to say. Cuz I’m not trying to get anyone to use stonefist. I don’t either. But I have. And to me what really makes it bad is that, with limited bar space, you can’t really use it except as a spammable. And sure, there are perhaps other better spammables. Why does everything have to be tied for best in order for it to be anything other than “trash”?

Looking at my screen now I see that they have added a .6 second cast time. Dizzy has a .8 second cast time. My stamdk is mostly naked right now but... dizzy hits for 3730. Stone giant hits for 3141.

Seriously if everybody wasn’t so dependent on off balance right now they would be completely interchangeable and up to personal preference. In a hypothetical where my stone giant aoe cast hits 2 people instead of one... yknow what I really don’t need to do this math to satisfy myself. It’s effectively the same damage.

It has nothing to do with toxicity. I'm trying to give you a hint there. Have fun with your ''range'' when you're caught in a bad position or when your party nails it and leaves you behind to your fate. You can feel free to tell the enemy all about how you have range and it should count as mobility as they smash your health bar.

As for viability we never asked for it to be the best skill ever. Majority of us wanted a reliable spammable that did average damage and maybe a little debuff as a cherry on top. Reliability and how good it feels to use, is all that matters. Stonefist transitions from a cast time AoE stomp to ranged spammable. Its a bad feeling.

OBJnoob

@Beffagorn okay you got me I guess. I have been wrong before and I may be wrong now. But as I said before I was literally looking at the numbers when I was saying it. So that’s why I’m being so stubborn even though I don’t think I’m perfect. I just wonder is everybody here is being as self critical as you’d have me be.

@wheem_ESO right so I agree with you 100%. Dizzying swing isn’t that great. It has range problems. It has lag problems. Cast time problems. But I think most stam builds, especially of a stam variety, use it. That’s why I compare the two. And if dizzying is “so good” then no I’m not gonna act like stonefist is trash some people just want their preferred class to be over powered is the fact behind half of this. And if in the same breath people wish they had a viable class based spammable that does similar damage but they don’t think they have it ima call them dead wrong.

@Ragnarock41 well I don’t have much if any problem with my stamdk he performs as well if not better than my other characters. And no I don’t try to stand there and tank several opponents and yes I do probably die if my team abandons me. But I make up for a lack of mobility by using a bow, medium armor, and using both of my ultimates (d leap and temporal guard) for mobility defensive or offensive as needed. Use shuffle. Could use race against time if needed. Frankly don’t know what everyone’s complaining about. I guess they just don’t like using so many guild and weapon abilities and I can honestly relate to that but this isn’t a stamdk problem honestly they have several unique and useful class specific skills and if a spammable doesn’t happen to be one of them so be it. The fact is that the option is there.

ecru

Beffagorn wrote: »

@OBJnoob

Considering you thought Corrosive Armor worked with dots, you are in no position to call someone a liar when your knowledge is, apparently, very restrictive when it comes to Stamdks

My numbers (not tooltips) come from testing in CP pvp. Go pvp with it, for an extended amount of time with whatever set you want. I used 5 Fury 5 Shacklebreaker 2 Bloodspawn and those are the numbers i got, but whatever set you use it's not going to change the fact that Dswing hits for much harder and is overall superior.

Corrosive used to work with dots, so maybe that's where he's coming from. It would retroactively apply the penetration buff to dots that were already on a target before it was nerfed.

OBJnoob

Yes thank you ecru that’s seems to be the mistake I made. An honest enough mistake I hope— there’s a lot of tiny little tidbits involving this game and some of the details, exactly like that one, is what I’m occasionally on this forum to get straight. I hope it doesn’t make me a complete moron for thinking, at the same time, I may have some insights that other people could use.

And my offered insight really is not “stonefist is awesome.” It’s just that stamdk doesn’t need a buff. Or, moreover, that perhaps certain other classes need buffs more immediately and due to an odd and new off balance stam meta where 51% of the pvp population thinks that stam toons have overpowered kits provided to them through weapon lines (catches breath,) then buffing a class that can and does already make use of said kit might result in an extremely overpowered class.

Anybody who has read the entire thread will know that’s what I’ve been saying. And can perhaps forgive me for liking stonefist better than they do. It’s really a very small insignificant point.

Zahirr

The thing that really gets me, like I said, is the nerfs with stamdk. Especially when it relates to class abilities.
Venomous claws does more damage the longer it stays up---> Added a class that has a constant purge every 5 seconds
Noxious Breath adds major fracture----> added a class that has crazy percent damage reduction and a health-cost purge
Searing Heat increases the damage of your DOT by 33%----> We nerf DOT's by 25%
World in Ruin decreases the cost of your poison skills by 25%

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> we increased the cost of noxious and venomous a few patches ago
Protective Scale absorbs ranged attacks

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> We nerfed that skill, but kept it on Warden, because reasons
Inhale

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> lol
Burning heat increases healing by 12%

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> reduce ALL HEALING BY 20% in Greymoor (And don't worry, Necros get 17%)
Helping Hands restores Stamina when you cast an Earthen Heart Skill

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> Except Stonefist! It's the only class skill in the game that doesn't interact with class passives!

Whats the point in giving us any passives at all? You just nerf us down so that we're as basic as can be. Look at stonefist. It adds 165 damage at 3 stacks. 6,000 stamina to add... 165 damage? It might as well just do the flat damage.
I got into Elder Scrolls Online because of Dragonknight. I saw my buddy Leap a guy and thought "Thats it. I wanna do that. I wanna dragondunk some people". And now after playing exclusively Dragonknight since Summerset, getting emperor on StamDK, crafting on my DK, and playing that one character since I started.... I'm done.

I'm waiting for the next patch, where they nerf leap because stamdk is number 2 on the tier list of some washed up youtuber.
If they nerf Stamdk for another patch in a row, I'm just gunna be done. I don't want to play a game where the creators genuinely don't care. Necromancers can slot four skills and NO ARMOR SETS and get a passive 51% reduced damage, just from skills,

Yet it takes 7 years, 7 years, for Stamdk to get a THIRD skill. And it's Stonefist?

OBJnoob

Well your memory is much better than mine on the “balancing” and when it happened but I do know that stonefist does interact with a rather important passive called minor brutality. I think I said that to you like a week ago in this very thread

The whole concept of 10% weapon damage being unique and helpful was pushed under the rug because “we already have a skill that uses that passive; ps I don’t like that skill either cuz the major vitality only works for 6 seconds.” Nobody ever thought that now that bloodspawn was nerfed you could take it off, put malubeth on, use stagger to strengthen your dots (cuz 165 damage added to every tick of damage could add up to a lot,) and perhaps have better magic sustain.

But that’s the last I’ll say about it cuz you already knew I was gonna say that. And other opinions deserve to be heard. Seems like I’m in the minority here... good luck to ya. I’ve never played a necro if they make stamdk stronger relative to them I’m sure I’ll be a very happy man.

MartiniDaniels

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well your memory is much better than mine on the “balancing” and when it happened but I do know that stonefist does interact with a rather important passive called minor brutality. I think I said that to you like a week ago in this very thread

The whole concept of 10% weapon damage being unique and helpful was pushed under the rug because “we already have a skill that uses that passive; ps I don’t like that skill either cuz the major vitality only works for 6 seconds.” Nobody ever thought that now that bloodspawn was nerfed you could take it off, put malubeth on, use stagger to strengthen your dots (cuz 165 damage added to every tick of damage could add up to a lot,) and perhaps have better magic sustain.

But that’s the last I’ll say about it cuz you already knew I was gonna say that. And other opinions deserve to be heard. Seems like I’m in the minority here... good luck to ya. I’ve never played a necro if they make stamdk stronger relative to them I’m sure I’ll be a very happy man.

Playing stamDK/stamplar, I absolutely never struggle with magicka sustain, even if only basic recovery is present. I think stonefist would be better if it cost magicka (2700), but scaled from stamina and restored stamina by helping hands. That will add some uniqueness to DK, like you may build for both recoveries with eternal vigor/torc for example, and then your spammable will restore you stamina needed for vigor/rally/block/dodge.
Overall, there are so much different things ZOS can do with that spammable... instead of that aoe stomp into 3 slow projectile rocks easily dodged etc... ZOS could've at least make them lightning fast like poison injection.

montjie

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

Beffagorn wrote: »

I'd rather Stonefist remains in it's own garbage tier forever. The moment i'm forced to use Stonefist to be competitive is the moment i start maining something else. It's by far the worst skill in the game in terms of visual appearnace and theme, in addition of having NOTHING to do with Dragonknights.
Lets judge a combat skill by its appearance and theme like that actually matters....


And yes, Stonefist is garbage that's a FACT, not an opinion. Requires 3 casts to stun for a total cost of 7-8k stam. 3 casts on an ability that can be dodged, blocked, has travel time and has a windup/cast animation. Damage isn't even good ontop of everything else.
Cant dswing be dodged, blocked aswell? Doesnt dswing have a cast time AND animation u get stuck in over half the time when the server is lagging which is basically all the time? Also if I time it right cant i just walk through your dswing effectively negating it completely?
Dswing has a tooltip of like 2k higher in noncp. Which boils down to like 1k actual damage ingame without buffs...Sfist damage isnt bad just because it isnt on dswing level. Its still on par or even higher than most class spammables and weapon spammables for that matter. And it grants minor brutality, ult regen, partially aoe damage, partially ranged damage and a delayed stun (admittedly could be more instant to my liking but you cant have everything)
If you dont like the skill because you think it looks silly or whatever thats your opinion to have. But lets just keep it exactly that. An opinion you have. Because statwise it isnt as bad as you make it out to be, and id argue its quite a pretty good skill actually. Not a bad skill overall to use in 1vx situations too

I'd like it if Hardened Armor were to be reworked into a stamina morph with a useful effect and be a viable choice for more than just the 50k HP tanks in pve.

A rework of Inhale with a stam morph that is onpar with other burst abilities like Shalks, Assasin's Scourge, Blastbones, Frags, PotL would also be nice to see.

I see crapping on stonefist is still the 'hip' thing to do.
both dswing and sfist have pro's and cons to them..1 skill might suit a certain build and/or environment better than the other and vice versa but can we just stop pretending one is vastly superior to the other because its not.

You may be right from some points of view before they added cast time to it... I might say I saw notable amount of stamDKs with hard-hitting stone fists in U24.. but after they added cast time part.... stone fist is non existent as a PVP ability right now. And for unknown reason stamfist was excluded from helping hands... so we had stamcro who has delayed burst with laughable cost (due to passive similar to helping hands), homing, non projectile and with most powerful debuff slapped on top.... and stamDK, lol, stomp and throw rock 3 times to stun? (and every warden out there has shimmering shield which just turns your stamfists into his ultimate points?)
Changes to stam fist just proved that devs don't play it and don't care about spec. Nobody who ever played stamDK could added that aoe stomp... cast time is bad even for PVE tanking if that is role which devs see for the class.
We asked for melee instant cast spammable, fitting class theme. Many players suggested same idea - spammable which applies stacks of bleed, with short animation like pierce armor/surprise attack. Make it visually like blade made from obsidian.

I agree with everything you said. I must add that the fact many people chose not to use something doesnt mean that something is bad or useless. Which I tried to prove with my first post so the perception of stone fist being non existent in pvp is imo irrelevant. Its still a viable skill to use in pvp.

Beffagorn wrote: »

@montjie

You might only be interested in abilities that give you the highest dps on a boss but for me, personally, i choose DKs for the theme and lore package aswell. Throwing rocks isn't part of DK's theme or lore.
This is the PVP section my replies apply to pvp only, unless i specify otherwise

For PvP, Stonefist is nowhere close to dealing the damage Dswing does. My Dswing hits for 4.5k to 9k and even 10k against squishier targets in CP pvp and also applies Off Balance, which is a very potent debuff now.
Like i said before, dswing is better in certain builds/environments, but so is sfist. I take it since all you ever seem to talk about is CP thats the only environment you play in. Considering that and the xtra damage passive you get I agree, in that environment dswing takes the lead and your numbers may be right. In noncp however your numbers are way off and the damage output of the two are way more aligned. Dswing still doing more damage but negligable in the grand scheme. If you get to kill someone with a classic dk combo (anything revolving leap) the difference between sfist and dswing wouldnt have made any difference.

On the other hand stonefist is hitting for 3 to 5k, very rarely 7k at most on squishy targets. The minor brutality argument holds no water whatsoever since the buff already has 100% uptime anyway from using Fragmented Shield. The only advantage is the 3ult/6s proccing on cooldown.

The aoe component is a downside, not a bonus. At this point, everyone and their mother is using Blade Cloak or Shuffle for Major Evasion.
Thats up for discussion. I mainly run solo, fight pretty much always outnumbered. My enemies are mostly 'casuals'. The times I position myself right i can crit the enemy group with around 5k each. 5k aoe followed by a leap can really mess up a group like that and ive had many turns of the fight using an aoe sfist, turn undead, leap combo.
To your defense there also have been many times I wish that aoe function was just the usual single target projectile and i messed up chances or the whole fight because it not being that at that time

The ranged part is shut down entirely by Shimmering Shield, a skill that every warden runs and by Wings which are still run occasionally by magdks. Defensive Posture also sees some use lately, further worsening the problem
Irrelevant response, saying youre cherrypicking things that fit your narrative would be an understatement

If Stonefist was anywhere as good as you make it to be, you'd see Stamdks running it. But guess what, there's literally nobody using that skill outside of Trial groups to increase their overall damage, and even there i've seen it used more often on tanks than dps since Crushing Weapon and Wrecking Blow are superior in terms of damage.
Cant stand this type of reasoning. The same thing was said about bloodspawn. There can be a multiple of reasons why people dont use sfist. Stats dont lie however. If you argue that in cp, sure, i give you the win because damage and off balance are and weigh higher in that environment. In non cp tho...nopes. Look at how long dswing has been in the game as a stam spammable. Now look at sfist. Dare tell me that cant have an effect on what people chose to run. If the stats are close to similar but im way more accustomed to 1 over the other i will most likely chose the 1 over the other will i not? Thats just 1 of the many reasons i could give you why people dont run sfist

The skill should be scrapped entirely to make room for a new and better skill that makes use of Stagger since the effect is actually good, just not on Stonefist. Either that, or leave it in the trash tier it's in and forget it even exists like it has been for the vast majority of ESO's life.
I too would like to see a new/better stam spammable for dk if zos really wants to give dk one instead of this halfassed one. But again, dissing the skill because YOU dont like it or because it doesnt fit in YOUR way of playing does not mean the skill is trash. Dont mix fact with opinion

OBJnoob

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Juon5rGpo1Q

This video isn't only about stamDK the stamDK part starts at about the 12 minute mark. It's a 16 minute video. Watch it if you're bored and curious what King of Gamez thinks about the current state of stamDK from the perspective of an X-er.

He never says they're OP or tries to rank them first or claims to use stonefist. He just plain says they are good. I wonder if he is the 'washed up youtuber' somebody was talking about. Anyway, this video is from yesterday.

ZOS_Volpe

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