The StamDK problem in 3 acts (and how to fix it in 1)

mav1234

How exactly are wardens getting minor brutality again?

Stam DK is strong right now. Sounds like user error. Maybe you'll have more luck on a class with a different playstyle.

Zahirr

@Mav1234 wardens get minor berserk, mb. Essentially the same thing.

But if you have some areas where Stamdk excels, please let me know. Just saying "well, you don't know how to play the class" doesn't mean anything. Lets talk about the skills. The passives. The builds that make Stamdk shine above other classes with the same builds. Because, I don't see them. Everyone says Stamdk is at the top of tier lists, but who determines that? What determines that? What skill stands out? What build stands out, that is the best on Stamdk?

There are a lot of strong Stamdk players out there, but those are the same people who can kill you with JUST dizzying swing and nothing else. The only people playing Stamdk at a high level are people who are too stubborn to switch to a stronger/newer class (like me). Just because one person is good with stamdk, doesn't mean that the whole class is good. The CLASS has problem, and one person using extreme skill to overcome adversity doesn't mean anything. The CLASS still has problems.

Psiion

Greetings all,

After removing a few posts, we would like to remind everyone that Baiting is against our Forum Rules. We ask that everyone try to keep the Forums a place for civil and constructive discussion, and please keep in mind the Rules when posting. Thank you all for your understanding!

Ragnarock41

Hey, Been a while since I posted anything in this forum. First of all thanks for the well written post, I don't feel the need to add anything further to the discussion other than reminding everyone that this was officially said by the developers at the time where I was very vocal about class identity and DKs in general:
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025

A lot of people were harsh to me for calling this a PR move from the devs to save the day, and well, I think its fair to say that I stand corrected when I said nothing will change in the end, and just as I expected, nothing changed. I'm honestly suprised that they actually bothered to have an attempt at fixing stonefist, but they missed the essence of the issue entirely, which I also anticipated when they said they wanted to preserve the ''earth theme'' of the ability.

In any case I'd say don't expect any constructive criticism to your post, all you will get is some Xbox kid telling you their stamDK eats stamcros for breakfast. Either that or magblade mains telling you why the class is OP and why Wings needs to be a self-root cause its unfair to them that they don't get to instakill an immobile class.

NekoN3ko

They always favor/market new classes for obvious reasons. This years push is Necro.

Does anybody remember what a Mag DK is?

Wing

NekoN3ko wrote: »

They always favor/market new classes for obvious reasons. This years push is Necro.

Does anybody remember what a Mag DK is?

OP till patch 1.5

down hill ever since.

Atherakhia

A lot of the issues mentioned in OP aren't limited to Stam DK.

While Stam DKs are viable at least, MagDKs are another story. The skill costs in particular need to be looked at. I was told back in the day they used to be much more deadly, but today they are pathetic for their costs and the DK passives aren't enough to compensate for their poor performance:cost ratios.

MagDK also have the misfortune of being a DOT class without any real way to defend themselves long enough for the DOTs to do their work. The lack of burst, poor damage, and poor survivability skills really don't work out to a functioning class. The stam DK can compensate for these failings because there are burst options on melee weapons. Not so for Destruction staff.

Zahirr

@Atherakhia Very Very true. I could write for hours and hours the problems with DK, but MagDK has it almost as bad as StamDK. They have a class identity of... stuns? I guess? I agree it really doesn't make any sense. We have two full skill trees with no damage skills aside from Stonefist... and half of those skills are just really weird/short buffs. Wings could be nice, but not in a 6 second window for 4,000 magicka. I like the direction volatile armor went, and I personally think it would be cool if they went with an idea of "Everything applies a DOT" on MagDK. So Igneous weapons would set your target on fire with a burn DOT, Fossilize would stagger someone and make them take more damage (effectively a dot), Or fragmented shield would give a Dot on cast.

Then, it'd be really awesome to fight a MagDK, because it'd be like they where actually on fire, with every skill they cast applying some small kind of DOT.

Rather then just a bunch of random, situational skills that most people don't use like the 6k Magicka Ash Cloud.

Mayrael

Oh man at least you get buffs first. Nightblades and especially magblades get only nerfs, and identity? Fear given to everyone, cloak given to vampires, assassin's will given to sorc, ambush in dual wield skill line, the only and last bastion of NB identity is shade.

Rhaegar75

What do you think about using Malacath and Deadly to increase our 2 main DoTs?

If I was using a bow the dots could be 4.....but I guess I like the 1h+Shield tankiness

OBJnoob

How’s it goin @Rhaegar75 you figure out what character you gonna play yet? I see you all over these stamplar stamsorc and stamdk forums. You always come in with good ideas and then seem to not do any of them just doooo it.

Yes heavy armor high weapon damage dot dk with malacath is very strong this patch. At least in 1v1. I hear what really sets it over the top is using corrosive armor as an ulti while all your dots are running to suddenly apply “whoa where did that come from” pressure as you go for stun and execute.

Beffagorn

OBJnoob wrote: »

How’s it goin @Rhaegar75 you figure out what character you gonna play yet? I see you all over these stamplar stamsorc and stamdk forums. You always come in with good ideas and then seem to not do any of them just doooo it.

Yes heavy armor high weapon damage dot dk with malacath is very strong this patch. At least in 1v1. I hear what really sets it over the top is using corrosive armor as an ulti while all your dots are running to suddenly apply “whoa where did that come from” pressure as you go for stun and execute.

Corrosive Armor doesn't work with Dots, only direct damage and the ultimate itself.

"Deals Poison Damage, and your direct attacks ignore Physical Resistance while active."

OBJnoob

Oh wow you're so right. Silly me. Still though that is what I've heard. Perhaps you pop corrosive and then go dizzy swinging away like everybody else -shrug- I'm not sure, now that you say that, what the point actually is. What about Onslaught? Does that also only add penetration to direct damage attacks or perhaps that could be used to buff your dots?

wheem_ESO

OBJnoob wrote: »

Oh wow you're so right. Silly me. Still though that is what I've heard. Perhaps you pop corrosive and then go dizzy swinging away like everybody else -shrug- I'm not sure, now that you say that, what the point actually is. What about Onslaught? Does that also only add penetration to direct damage attacks or perhaps that could be used to buff your dots?

Corrosive Armor is a really good ultimate, even without affecting DOTs. Dizzy Swing's damage is already OP as it is (at least in no-CP) and the defense portion of the Ultimate is also extremely potent.

Ragnarock41

The most common use of corrosive armor is to bait your enemy into a false sense of security and kill them while they're wondering why you don't take big damage from executes. You'd think they would learn but it works all the time against some people.

Its effectively useless against chip damage of any kind(weaving, dots, enchants etc. Stacking multiple sources of damage is the best way to counter corrosive armor, as it will only mitigate if the damage is too big). But if you can't do that, lets say you're a stamsorc burst build or something like that, you can simply.... streak away, or use a pet for line of sight. Choosing your fights carefully, wow what a crazy concept.

If this class wasn't good at dueling not a single soul would bother playing it in PvP. That is quite literally the only thing its good for, and even at that, it commonly loses to other classes in big shot dueling tournaments, so its not this ''unkillable easy mode god class'' that people try to make it look like.

Class balance is affected a lot by the general state of item sets and the balance triangle of sustain, damage, tankyness. So I can't really make any suggestions on ''how to fix'' the class either. When healing was strong stamDK was fine cause really the lack of mobility did not matter a bit. But now it does in no-cp, as it did in the previous patch where dots were overpowered as hell, and 2h/bow Dk was actually a thing.

Right now all I can say is, this class is sort of a ''win more'' class. If you're winning and stomping, its great. If you're losing though, bleh. You don't get a cheap escape when you make a big mistake. No streaking away, no cloak spam, no purge, no room for silly mistakes.

Now stam necromancer I'd say would be in a similar spot except that class is unfortunately the ''pay to win'' flavor of this year, as it was warden with morrowind release. If you can play it correctly. Its nothing new to see a stam necro fight 4-5 players at once, blow them up one by one, and not even go below %50 in the process, and well, mag necro is famous for ''press X to win''.

So what am I trying to get at? Its okay to have an immobile class if it wins almost every engagement. Its bad for balance but it works for that class. Now I'd like it if they gave the class mobility in some form instead of making it an ''I win'' class, like it once was, however It would be better if they figured out what sort of meta they want for the PvP, as I see literally no point in balance changes when they keep changing game mechanics so often.

Sergykid

you can say stamdk is weak only compared to magdk, otherwise it's almost on equal with other stam classes.

magdk is a living god if played correctly. Tell me what has the stam leap better than mag leap? you could cast mag leap on a stam character too actually. Both morphs are gap closers, aoe stun, aoe damage, high damage at that, low cost, but the mag morph actually also has the very big shield. This ult is boosted by default compared to other classes. But why does the stam morph doesn't have a defense attached like the mag morph?

stam has good dots and debuffs. But mag has this and more.

ecru

Dots are trash damage and/or are hard countered by purges. Warden's auto purge and Templar's ritual are the big outliers here. Why does an ability that every warden will have automatically negate basically all of the class identity I have.. automatically? The netch doesn't even cost anything to cast, but there it is disappearing the only unique form of damage I have as a DK--dots--reducing my class to base weapon skills. Same with Ritual. In no other MMO have purges been both spammable and abilities that remove multiple sets of dots/debuffs at the same time because that makes those abilities much, much stronger than any heal. ESO is the outlier here with very very weird design choices that simply don't make sense in the grand scheme of things.

There needs to be some penalty for removing dots, or purges need to only remove one single dot/debuff. Purges are simply too strong and they have the potential to negate more damage than any single heal, including ults, which is really, really dumb and broken. Until dots are made viable, StamDK will have no real class identity against half of the classes in the game and the identity it does have against the ones that don't hard counter it.. feels weak, because the abilities are weak.

Nothing is going to change for StamDK until the imbalance between dots/debuffs and the opportunity cost of purges is fixed. I don't really pvp anymore because of these reasons. I like my DK, I like the abilities, but I'm done wasting time being frustrated by having my class reduced down to a few spammable weapon skills a third of the time. Very simple abilities that many players will always have slotted just completely gut the class and because of that I can't justify playing it at all. When something is unenjoyable, frustrating, unfun, it's time to stop, and that's what I did.

One final thing. It almost seems as if StamDK dots are designed in such a way that makes purges more punishing than they would be otherwise if they worked as "normal" dots did. What I mean by this is the backloaded damage for claw, where the majority of the damage does not show up until the last few ticks. This means that if you're a Templar or anyone else with a purge slotted, that dot is not a real danger to you until far into it's duration, so you have some breathing room to just wait out the dot and purge it later, since the damage is so small on it's initial ticks. Why is our main dot countered harder by purges than any other dots in the game when it's supposed to be our bread and butter for outgoing damage? When it's supposed to be one of the longest duration, hardest hitting dots? It's total garbage and the lack of foresight that happens when design decisions like this take place is disappointing. At the very least, could our dots maybe not be worse than other dots against purges?

OBJnoob

I agree that... hmm... I agree that dots are a bit useless, especially considering purges, and that it's unfortunate a lot of dk skills have to do with that. But I'm not sure what perspective we're all taking on stamDK here. I think someone said it's pretty good in duels. I think someone said it's pretty good, or recently was, pretty good in stand your ground engagements. I want to attest to that as well. So where do they lack? One person trying to take on three people? You get your gear right... you get some good advice with skill setups you read your passives and do your best... play it for a week or two, feel good. Yes you have every right to want to be able to engage 3 people. But lets not get too carried away, right?

So that requires a certain toolkit. And I mean even if we don't account for purging, what are the odds that out of 3 enemies one isn't a templar or a warden? There's some healing going on. It requires burst damage to deal with those scenarios. To dispatch at least one as fast as possible and even the odds. Or am I wrong about that?

So I mean you're probably going to have to build a different way and play for dizzy swinging, right? And I'm not so sure if that makes DKs useless or if it just puts them right there with a lot of other stam classes that, I think a lot of people suppose, are being carried by useful gap closers and executes and heals from weapon skill lines. Or am I wrong about that?

I just don't see what makes them so bad. I have success on mine... relative to what makes me happy anyway. One could probably, and rightly, say that stamDKs don't offer much to a group environment (minor brutality and some weakish shields mostly... some ccs if you wanna go that route... not super terrible,) but they themselves do just fine in a group environment. Most things do.

Atherakhia

I strongly disagree with the above comment that MagDK is some kind of 'god'. They're probably one of the worst classes in the game in my opinion. Only Mag that's worse would probably be MagCro I suppose? The only thing you even mentioned that they had that was great was leap. But why is the shield leap suddenly a mag DK skill? It's an ultimate. If you like the shield, use that leap morph on your stam DK? The shield isn't even based off the mag stat like most shields, it's based of health. So there's literally nothing stopping you.

But leap in general isn't even used by most these days. Mag DKs use Banner simply because most are running Elf Bane, not because the DOT duration matters (it doesn't in PvP in general) but because the class does such poor damage it needs things like 100% uptime on Grothdarr. Granted Elf Bane has the advantage of making Talons amazing, but that skill is practically worthless without Elf Bane. Frankly, the only reason to run Elf Bane is specifically because you're going to run Talons.

Sorry to derail this into a Mag vs. Stam debate, but I can't help but flatly disagree with the above statement.

DKs in general need to have the costs reevaluated across the board; both Stam and Mag. Whip needs to be reevaluated as both morphs are bad (in PvP). Stonefist is still bad and there should be something for Stam DKs to use other than a weapon spammable. Beyond that, no idea what they could do. Raw damage doesn't seem to be the problem.

OBJnoob

Stonefist is not bad at all. The damage isn't bad. The range isn't bad. The first AoE, and the last stun, are not bad. I think the only problem anyone has with it is that it doesn't set people off balance. When I ask myself "is stamDK weak or is the off balance meta a little out of hand," I know which way I lean.

I think, for mag and stam, some of the magic skills do cost too much. Not sure how/why/if that's on par with other classes. I'm thinking it is not?

Hotdog_23

OBJnoob wrote: »

Stonefist is not bad at all. The damage isn't bad. The range isn't bad. The first AoE, and the last stun, are not bad. I think the only problem anyone has with it is that it doesn't set people off balance. When I ask myself "is stamDK weak or is the off balance meta a little out of hand," I know which way I lean.

I think, for mag and stam, some of the magic skills do cost too much. Not sure how/why/if that's on par with other classes. I'm thinking it is not?

Stonefist is bad. Stonefist is (our multiple personality disorder skill) is just a mess of a skill. Part cast time part instant with travel time, part AOE, not part AOE, part stun and part not stun along with a stagger effect for grins and giggles. Talk about a skill in an identity crisis.

Major expedition on a gap closer (Empowering Chains) make no sense. Move it to wings (Protective Scale) base skill so both morphs have it. In addition, lower the cost for both stam and mag or make a morph for each.

Volatile Armor would be better if it pulsed out spikes that cause damage every second rather than a onetime DOT at cast. Hardened Armor extra shield is too small to be noticed on anything but true tanks. As a damage dealer it doesn’t matter which morph you take because they both are lacking either a one-time dot to purged or a very small shield.

Shattering Rocks does anyone even use this morph?

Be safe and have fun

OBJnoob

Identity crisis? Or utility? You seem very whimsical on what buffs fit with what skills. And I think the things you think are useless in the skill actually should be seen as satisfying some of the other people’s’ concerns. About lack of mobility (is range not a form of mobility?) Are we 0% happy about having a ranged attack? A spammable that procs minor brutality? An instacast ability with almost identical damage per second as dizzy swing? AoE potential? A stagger effect strengthening dots that people are complaining were the original theme of dk?

I think it will be very hard for zos to decide what, if anything, to do to satisfy these complaints. I hope they don’t make stonefist set people off balance because then the skill nobody likes will suddenly be discovered to be overpowered. People will actually learn how to use it rather than complaining that it doesn’t do the same thing every time.

Atherakhia

If it were up to me, Stonefist would be a pretty strong skill if it acted more like FoO. Make it cost resources only on initial cast and you gain 3 charges, using the skill again to consume a charge and launch an orb at target much like it does currently. However, it will automatically consume a charge and hit a target within 7 yards of you every 2 seconds. Make the orbs AE when they explode in this fashion.

Beffagorn

I'd rather Stonefist remains in it's own garbage tier forever. The moment i'm forced to use Stonefist to be competitive is the moment i start maining something else. It's by far the worst skill in the game in terms of visual appearnace and theme, in addition of having NOTHING to do with Dragonknights.

And yes, Stonefist is garbage that's a FACT, not an opinion. Requires 3 casts to stun for a total cost of 7-8k stam. 3 casts on an ability that can be dodged, blocked, has travel time and has a windup/cast animation. Damage isn't even good ontop of everything else.

I'd like it if Hardened Armor were to be reworked into a stamina morph with a useful effect and be a viable choice for more than just the 50k HP tanks in pve.

A rework of Inhale with a stam morph that is onpar with other burst abilities like Shalks, Assasin's Scourge, Blastbones, Frags, PotL would also be nice to see.

Ragnarock41

Fixing stonefist is as simple as making the rest of the ability melee aswell. It would be presentable then. As for the guy up there who is basically saying ''range equals mobility'', I'm sorry to inform you that you'd be the laughing stock of cyrodiil with that mindset..

montjie

Beffagorn wrote: »

I'd rather Stonefist remains in it's own garbage tier forever. The moment i'm forced to use Stonefist to be competitive is the moment i start maining something else. It's by far the worst skill in the game in terms of visual appearnace and theme, in addition of having NOTHING to do with Dragonknights.
Lets judge a combat skill by its appearance and theme like that actually matters....


And yes, Stonefist is garbage that's a FACT, not an opinion. Requires 3 casts to stun for a total cost of 7-8k stam. 3 casts on an ability that can be dodged, blocked, has travel time and has a windup/cast animation. Damage isn't even good ontop of everything else.
Cant dswing be dodged, blocked aswell? Doesnt dswing have a cast time AND animation u get stuck in over half the time when the server is lagging which is basically all the time? Also if I time it right cant i just walk through your dswing effectively negating it completely?
Dswing has a tooltip of like 2k higher in noncp. Which boils down to like 1k actual damage ingame without buffs...Sfist damage isnt bad just because it isnt on dswing level. Its still on par or even higher than most class spammables and weapon spammables for that matter. And it grants minor brutality, ult regen, partially aoe damage, partially ranged damage and a delayed stun (admittedly could be more instant to my liking but you cant have everything)
If you dont like the skill because you think it looks silly or whatever thats your opinion to have. But lets just keep it exactly that. An opinion you have. Because statwise it isnt as bad as you make it out to be, and id argue its quite a pretty good skill actually. Not a bad skill overall to use in 1vx situations too

I'd like it if Hardened Armor were to be reworked into a stamina morph with a useful effect and be a viable choice for more than just the 50k HP tanks in pve.

A rework of Inhale with a stam morph that is onpar with other burst abilities like Shalks, Assasin's Scourge, Blastbones, Frags, PotL would also be nice to see.

I see crapping on stonefist is still the 'hip' thing to do.
both dswing and sfist have pro's and cons to them..1 skill might suit a certain build and/or environment better than the other and vice versa but can we just stop pretending one is vastly superior to the other because its not.

yeyesil

Stamdk is an outdated class. Since scalebreaker patch its been nerfed every patch. No or less mobile characters like stamdk, stamden, stamcro can survive with their tankyness. Stamcros and stamdens have great classbased tankyness and healing skills and passives(minor protection, major mending, some healing passives, spirit mender etc) while stamdks tankyness only come from healing with major mending. Thats a great buff but with p2w stamcro meta you can see stamcros everywhere with a very easy major defile. Stamdks dont have other tanky passives like minor protection, spirit mender, purge, cloak or streak. Class has no mobility skills. So it only trusts its healing. Now also with healing nerf and easy defile stamdks are behind those p2w classes like stamden and stamcros.

Secondly with dots and corrosive nerfed, class has no identity. You cant kill your opponent with your dots. Your only chance is leap and most of the time you dont have any chances just with leap against experienced players. Class has also no burst or delayed burst skill.

Templars-potl
Nbs- assassins will
Wardens-shalk
Necros-blastbones
Sorcerers-bound arnaments(weakest one)

Stamdks have weak dots.

You may not agree with me but i play this game for 5+ years and my main is dk. Dks have never been this weak.

Dont tell me stamdk is strong. You can only kill potatoes with leap. I am tslking about vet players. If 2 same level exprienced players duel, stamdk has no chance against stamdens stamcros and stamplars.

MartiniDaniels

montjie wrote: »

show previous quotes

Beffagorn wrote: »

I'd rather Stonefist remains in it's own garbage tier forever. The moment i'm forced to use Stonefist to be competitive is the moment i start maining something else. It's by far the worst skill in the game in terms of visual appearnace and theme, in addition of having NOTHING to do with Dragonknights.
Lets judge a combat skill by its appearance and theme like that actually matters....


And yes, Stonefist is garbage that's a FACT, not an opinion. Requires 3 casts to stun for a total cost of 7-8k stam. 3 casts on an ability that can be dodged, blocked, has travel time and has a windup/cast animation. Damage isn't even good ontop of everything else.
Cant dswing be dodged, blocked aswell? Doesnt dswing have a cast time AND animation u get stuck in over half the time when the server is lagging which is basically all the time? Also if I time it right cant i just walk through your dswing effectively negating it completely?
Dswing has a tooltip of like 2k higher in noncp. Which boils down to like 1k actual damage ingame without buffs...Sfist damage isnt bad just because it isnt on dswing level. Its still on par or even higher than most class spammables and weapon spammables for that matter. And it grants minor brutality, ult regen, partially aoe damage, partially ranged damage and a delayed stun (admittedly could be more instant to my liking but you cant have everything)
If you dont like the skill because you think it looks silly or whatever thats your opinion to have. But lets just keep it exactly that. An opinion you have. Because statwise it isnt as bad as you make it out to be, and id argue its quite a pretty good skill actually. Not a bad skill overall to use in 1vx situations too

I'd like it if Hardened Armor were to be reworked into a stamina morph with a useful effect and be a viable choice for more than just the 50k HP tanks in pve.

A rework of Inhale with a stam morph that is onpar with other burst abilities like Shalks, Assasin's Scourge, Blastbones, Frags, PotL would also be nice to see.

I see crapping on stonefist is still the 'hip' thing to do.
both dswing and sfist have pro's and cons to them..1 skill might suit a certain build and/or environment better than the other and vice versa but can we just stop pretending one is vastly superior to the other because its not.

You may be right from some points of view before they added cast time to it... I might say I saw notable amount of stamDKs with hard-hitting stone fists in U24.. but after they added cast time part.... stone fist is non existent as a PVP ability right now. And for unknown reason stamfist was excluded from helping hands... so we had stamcro who has delayed burst with laughable cost (due to passive similar to helping hands), homing, non projectile and with most powerful debuff slapped on top.... and stamDK, lol, stomp and throw rock 3 times to stun? (and every warden out there has shimmering shield which just turns your stamfists into his ultimate points?)
Changes to stam fist just proved that devs don't play it and don't care about spec. Nobody who ever played stamDK could added that aoe stomp... cast time is bad even for PVE tanking if that is role which devs see for the class.
We asked for melee instant cast spammable, fitting class theme. Many players suggested same idea - spammable which applies stacks of bleed, with short animation like pierce armor/surprise attack. Make it visually like blade made from obsidian.

Beffagorn

@montjie

You might only be interested in abilities that give you the highest dps on a boss but for me, personally, i choose DKs for the theme and lore package aswell. Throwing rocks isn't part of DK's theme or lore.

For PvP, Stonefist is nowhere close to dealing the damage Dswing does. My Dswing hits for 4.5k to 9k and even 10k against squishier targets in CP pvp and also applies Off Balance, which is a very potent debuff now.

On the other hand stonefist is hitting for 3 to 5k, very rarely 7k at most on squishy targets. The minor brutality argument holds no water whatsoever since the buff already has 100% uptime anyway from using Fragmented Shield. The only advantage is the 3ult/6s proccing on cooldown.

The aoe component is a downside, not a bonus. At this point, everyone and their mother is using Blade Cloak or Shuffle for Major Evasion.

The ranged part is shut down entirely by Shimmering Shield, a skill that every warden runs and by Wings which are still run occasionally by magdks. Defensive Posture also sees some use lately, further worsening the problem

If Stonefist was anywhere as good as you make it to be, you'd see Stamdks running it. But guess what, there's literally nobody using that skill outside of Trial groups to increase their overall damage, and even there i've seen it used more often on tanks than dps since Crushing Weapon and Wrecking Blow are superior in terms of damage.

The skill should be scrapped entirely to make room for a new and better skill that makes use of Stagger since the effect is actually good, just not on Stonefist. Either that, or leave it in the trash tier it's in and forget it even exists like it has been for the vast majority of ESO's life.

OBJnoob

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Fixing stonefist is as simple as making the rest of the ability melee aswell. It would be presentable then. As for the guy up there who is basically saying ''range equals mobility'', I'm sorry to inform you that you'd be the laughing stock of cyrodiil with that mindset..

Cyrodiil is pretty toxic and I’m sure half of them would laugh. The other half would agree with me because when they said mobility they didn’t secretly mean “run away.”

And the guy right above me is changing his gear when he changes his skills or just 100% lying about his tooltips. I just had to log on to look at my screen while I say what I’m about to say. Cuz I’m not trying to get anyone to use stonefist. I don’t either. But I have. And to me what really makes it bad is that, with limited bar space, you can’t really use it except as a spammable. And sure, there are perhaps other better spammables. Why does everything have to be tied for best in order for it to be anything other than “trash”?

Looking at my screen now I see that they have added a .6 second cast time. Dizzy has a .8 second cast time. My stamdk is mostly naked right now but... dizzy hits for 3730. Stone giant hits for 3141.

Seriously if everybody wasn’t so dependent on off balance right now they would be completely interchangeable and up to personal preference. In a hypothetical where my stone giant aoe cast hits 2 people instead of one... yknow what I really don’t need to do this math to satisfy myself. It’s effectively the same damage.