The StamDK problem in 3 acts (and how to fix it in 1)

Zahirr

So, as a long time Stamina Dragonknight player, I thought I'd post a little something about the problems StamDK faces at the moment, in Four acts. Skills, buffs, class identity, and finally, ways to fix these horrible, horrible problems.
1. Overpriced, weak skills
So, this is a massive, massive problem with Stamdk right now. Firstly, in that we only recently got our third stamina skill. Counting the ultimate, there are only four reasons to play stamina dragonknight. Leap, a pretty good one. Venomous claw, an alright one. Noxious breath, an average/tec one that a lot of people are phasing out, and.... god forbid, Stone Giant. Stone Giant is, bar none, the worst skill in the game, being the highest costed stun (requiring you to spend 8,000 stamina), the only ranged skill in the game that is 25% of the time a melee skill, making it useless in range, an abysmally small extra ability (Stamcro gets major defile, essentially a five piece set bonus, ward of cyrodiil, on their class spammable. DK's get 160 damage extra, at most. which is 1/5 of a 5 peice set bonus, draugrkin). Stonefist is also the ONLY SKILL IN THE GAME THAT IGNORES A CLASS PASSIVE (helping hands). And our stamina skills aside, there's not much else. Fragmented shield has been a staple on dragonknight for a long time, and it is 4k magicka to give a laughably small shield, along with major mending for 4 seconds. Or Wings, which now gives a bonus of... less mitigation then just holding up a shield. For 6 seconds. And it's also 4k magicka. Even inhale, one of the least used abilities in the game, is 4k magicka, and that skill is the equivalent of trying to murder someone with a light autumn breeze. You could replace the baseline 300 damage tooltip of inhale with a picture of a rabbit, and no one would notice.
But, a large problem with all of these skills mentioned... is number 2

2. For every buff, a nerf
Fact of the day: Dragonknight has been nerfed, every single patch, since at least scalebreaker. It's probably been going on for longer then that, but that's just when I started keeping track. They nerfed stonefist, the most laughable skill in the game, for crying out loud. People would say it looked like you where just throwing taco bell at people, and it did dps akin to a crunchwrap supreme.
Now, as stated before, it's melee 25% of the time, and absolutely useless. But the problem is bigger when we look at class passives. Dragonknights get two passives for dots; one that makes your poison dots cost less, and one that makes all of your dots last for longer and deal more damage. aaaaaand guess what they've done since scalebreaker? Increased the cost of your only two dots to invalidate your passives and make them cost just the same as every other spammable, and decreased the damage by 25% in scalebreaker, just to make sure it really drives home that your Dragonknight passives shouldn't exist in the first place. Furthermore with magicka skills like wings, they just take away the skill entirely. Yes, we all know old Wings was op... but wardens still get to absorb projectiles entirely. Does anyone really think that a crappy version of block for 4k magicka is worth it? For six seconds of a crappy version of block? And also something something bloodspawn nerf. I know it wasn't a direct nerf to Dragonknight... but lets be honest, it was kinda the pineapple to our pizza.
While the two acts before do, indeed seem severe, it gets much worse when we consider them in the broader context of act three.

3. Class identity
Stamdk brings a grand total of nothing at all to the table as far as originality. Thats why all of the town guards use dragonknight skills. Dragonknight has been seen for too long as... the basic class. Because there's nothing that Stamdk brings to the table. Our skills are too few, our passives are too little, and at the end of the day none of our kit synergizes together. Magicka DK skills play off of fire damage, but venomous claw doesn't interact with any other DK skill. Dragonknights have one of the hardest hitting single target ults, yes... but why? aren't we supposed to be the dot class? Wouldn't it make more sense for the dot class to have... a dot ult? Or even a dot spammable? Why do we get skills flavored to the play style of Templar like Cauterize and Standard, while they get a (formerly) dot spammable? Why are Templars running Deadly Set with no dots, while StamDKs are running New Moons and Fury?
Which, brings me to my last act

4. Rising from the ashes
It's no secret that stamdk used to be one of the best classes out there. But the age of the class, coupled with constant crippling nerfs, has left us basic. Average. Plain. We're the default class now. The one you pick when you just want to use weapon skills. But we shouldn't be! We should be brave, courageous Dragonknights! Foolhardy warriors who leap into battle with reckless abandon, Shaking the ground and making our presence known in a sea of fire!
So, add in more skills! Either entirely new ones, like a commonly theory-crafted obsidian blade skill. Or, change existing ones! Keep the stomp of Stone Giant, and throw away the ranged. Make the spammable cracking the ground with your very presence, staggering your foes and making them take more damage (more then currently, please). Give us a skill that puts an uncleansable dot of someone, so that we can stand some chance against magicka templars. Make a stamina version of the whip, or of chains so that we can have a good spammable, or some mobility outside of ultimate.

Or, if you want to get crazy: What about an uncleansable dot, that starts off doing a small amount of damage. But, every time you light attack the target, the dot stacks up more and more? But, it only has a 4 second timer. So if the Dragonknight can keep on the chase, they can do a lot of damage, but if you can make distance they lose power. Or, change Volitile armor to a stamina morph, Poison spikes. When you are blocking, the skill gives you a minor shield. But when you are not blocking, the skill inflicts your attacker with a small dot and a bit of damage. That way sSamdks have to make important choices about staying on the defensive at the cost of offense, or staying on the offense at the cost of defense. Or, maybe some kind of stamina skill like Bide from Pokemon, where you absorb a portion of the damage you suffer over time, and then expel it out from you in a fiery/poison fiery blast.

In conclusion: there are a lot, a lot, of problems with Stamdk. The class shows its age really really bad, and it needs an update. I, personally, would gladly pay 20 dollars more if they updated DK, Sorcerer, and Nightblade to make them all more modern and in line with necromancer and warden. I could talk all day about the myriad problems with Stamdk, so if this post was a little rambly I'm sorry. Just, TL:DR, take away two things. Look at stamdk, and don't think about the people who play it. Look at the actual class. The actual skills, and then decide if it needs changes (not buffs or nerfs, just changes). And, the second thing: Stone fist iiiiiiiiss the worst skill ever. Honestly, just give magicka DK back their ranged stun. We as Stamdks really don't want stonefist.

Urzigurumash

MagPlars are certainly difficult opponents 1v1. I would say give Stonefist a synergy and make it some sort of AoE stun like Sellistrix - a Stamina version of Talons.

I'll just re-iterate something I've said before regarding Class Identity:

It makes no sense to me that the signature StamDK ult (Corrosive) doesn't buff the two signature StamDK skills (Venomous Claw and Noxious Breath). Granted leap is the StamDKs best ult, but it's generally indistinguishable from the Mag morph, unlike Claw and Breath. Restoring the ability of Corrosive to buff Claw and Breath's DOT would be a substantial contributor to Class Identity, since the preferable alternatives are either non-class or the same as MagDK.

Urzigurumash

I will also say, regarding us being "the DOT class", I don't know where this is mandated or defined. I never paid much attention to that designation. We just have a few good DOTs. Leap is our best skill, and maybe the best skill in the game, and I don't think many of us want to go without it.

This idea of yours is pretty cool, maybe it could be a Stamina morph of Inhale:

Zahirr wrote: »

Or, maybe some kind of stamina skill like Bide from Pokemon, where you absorb a portion of the damage you suffer over time, and then expel it out from you in a fiery/poison fiery blast.

Hotdog_23

Only 3 of DK's DOT are buffed by passives when Necro get 15% to all DOTs

Rhaegar75

I have to admit that I'm not an amazing PvPer...quite the opposite. However I used to stand my ground pretty well with my StamDk before Greymoor (about 3 on kill/Death ratio...for what it's worth).
Struggling massively after the new patch...no longer sufficiently tanky but also not doing a lot of damage.
I resorted to going back to using a bow to have at least more mobility but I'm loosing class identify for sure

Firstmep

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Only 3 of DK's DOT are buffed by passives when Necro get 15% to all DOTs

Which is funny Beacuse stamcro has no proper dot skills to begin with.
Anyway dot dks are very strong this patch, buffing corrosive to apply to dots would just reintroduce the same old boring playstyle of holding block till corrosive and then dot ppl up and watch them melt.
It was boring back then and it would be boring now.
Use malacaths ring, deadly strike and whatever wpd dmg set and ull be fine on Stam DK.
Not to mention the myraid of dot proc sets that are really strong this patch and synergise with DK well.
I'd definetly like to see some flavor added back to Stam dk, but they're far from weak this patch.

MartiniDaniels

Looking at last 6 patch notes, it is clear that devs are biased. As you said for every good thing DK gets, there is immediate nerf in next update. It doesn't mean that you can't get a good build with DK etc, of course you can, but it is all about leaping and fighting outnumbered, about specific sets which synergize with DK, but not the class itself.

To summarize all patch noes:
Templar, warden - ZOS combat team likes this classes, for every indirect nerf there is immediate compensation is same patch, abilities are designed to complement with each other and current trends
Necro - class to enforce new players to buy it, but it's not like it have much love from ZOS, just mix of OP abilities. Will be nerfed to the ground, as soon as new class will appear
(mag)Sorc - ZOS don't like them, but there are too many magsorc players, so ZOS is forced to keep magsorc viable and versatile
DK, NB, stamsorc - ZOS don't like this specs, all changes are half-baked without much thought put into how they will be used in practice. You may get some good builds with proper gear, but again this will be about synergy of class with gear, and not about class itself.

MurderMostFoul

Honestly, StamDK seems fine to me in BGs at least. I'm still doing quite well on my 2H/bow, 6m/1h nord DK.

EtTuBrutus

You could argue that weapon dmg does more for survivability than the 3500 resistance you get under 50%, especially when combined with active defense like block, roll, stuns, los.

Fur_like_snow

It’s funny you call noxious breath average when I’d love a stamina based class skill that my stamSorc could use to get major fracture. Sure I could run s/b for ransack but that’s more deriving from weapon skill lines.

The big issue I see with DK is how expensive the class skills are. It’s not realistic to run fossilize on a stamDK with a 4K magicka price tag. Eruption is like 5.7k magicka. The skills aren’t bad they’re just inefficient.

EtTuBrutus

Eruption lasts for 18 seconds.

Liquid lightning is 4800 over 11 seconds.

Costly, sure. But not inefficient.

OBJnoob

Eruption? Fozzilize? I'm not even sure these are useful skills to have on a stamDK. If you're using Onslaught or Selenes or something I can see the need to hold them still but otherwise Dizzy Swing Heavy Attack is a perfectly good single target stun.

Use Fragmented Shield, Cauterize, Volatile Armor or whatever morph it is... and uh... I mean that's basically all you need. You can change it up a little bit but you're going to need space for dizzy swing, executioner, poison injection, shuffle, rally, vigor.

Using ultimates pretty much keeps your mag high enough to use what you gotta use. I used to combine Bone Pirate's with Spring Loaded Infusion to have that max mag (again, not worried about mag recovery,) and today if you wanted to use Eternal Vigor instead then you could probably use whatever food/drink you wanted.

If you're a tank then just ignore me. If you're a healer just ignore me. But if you're trying to be the classic tanky DPS then Fragmented Shield, Cauterize, Vigor, and Rally should be all you need to survive. That's a lot more than some people have.

Theignson

OBJnoob wrote: »

Eruption? Fozzilize? I'm not even sure these are useful skills to have on a stamDK. If you're using Onslaught or Selenes or something I can see the need to hold them still but otherwise Dizzy Swing Heavy Attack is a perfectly good single target stun.

Use Fragmented Shield, Cauterize, Volatile Armor or whatever morph it is... and uh... I mean that's basically all you need. You can change it up a little bit but you're going to need space for dizzy swing, executioner, poison injection, shuffle, rally, vigor.

Using ultimates pretty much keeps your mag high enough to use what you gotta use. I used to combine Bone Pirate's with Spring Loaded Infusion to have that max mag (again, not worried about mag recovery,) and today if you wanted to use Eternal Vigor instead then you could probably use whatever food/drink you wanted.

If you're a tank then just ignore me. If you're a healer just ignore me. But if you're trying to be the classic tanky DPS then Fragmented Shield, Cauterize, Vigor, and Rally should be all you need to survive. That's a lot more than some people have.

Yeah the major mending of fragmented, plus vigor, plus cauterize as a burst heal is super strong.
Also Fossilize is the strongest CC in the game by far. You can lock people down then burst them.

That being said I haven't played by stam DK in a while nor since Greymoor. He is my oldest character and my first to GO. I miss wings, I regret the dot nerf, I wish more DK skills were stamina based.

Rahar

Cool post. Good original ideas for new skills/fixes. Not really agreeing with any of your points about sDK being weak or underwhelming, and especially not with potentially making wings cancerous again, but you're right in saying that the base classes need some touching up.

OBJnoob

I don't know if Fossilize is the strongest CC in the game (Rune Cage, Streak, Fear, etc etc) but yes it is a very nice skill. It loses a lot of its usefulness to me though when I have to be within 8m to use it but since I'm within 8m I could already be heavy attacking, dizzy swinging, or leaping to stun this person. I don't need to Fozzilize them to D-Leap. I don't need 3 ways to stun. It makes their immunity harder to manage.

I like Onslaught-- Fossilize-- Executioner. I like Fossilize with a monster set like Selene's. I like fossilize on a magdk. In my opinion you need a veeery good and veeery specific reason to run it on a stamDK. There's other things you can be doing with your magic. And more damage related things you can be doing with your global cooldown.

And here's a random thought too... why would I want someone I just stunned in hopes of finishing off to HAVE to roll dodge when I'm trying to execute him? Cuz half the time when I use it they just roll dodge the attack anyway. Or they had Shuffle or Race Against Time so only the first half of the CC mattered anyway. In which case you might as well use Talons instead... because you're already hard CCing by dizzy swing and D-leap, so if you want to immobilize the enemy you might as well be giving them minor maim at the same time.

Fur_like_snow

Fossilize was 2.5k magicka a few patches ago it’s probably the best melee range stun in the game now it’s unsustainable on stamDK.

Beffagorn

You're more likely to bash down a concrete wall with your head than for ZoS to update stamdks and give them an identity. [snip]

The only reason stamdks aren't extinct is purely thanks to the abundance of good stamina sets, proc sets and good weapon skills that make the class somewhat viable but given the complete lack of sinergy between said sets, proc sets and weapon skills ANY other class wearing the same setup will, inevitably, perform better than what a Stamdk does with those sets.

One example ontop of my head is the average baseline stamina noCP setup. Heavy Bloodspawn (RIP) 5 Fury 5 Shacklebreaker 2h/SNB. A stamdk with that setup IS viable, nobody can say otherwise but in the same vein, any other stamina class (maybe stamblade less so) with the exact setup WILL perform better than a stamdk thanks to a better and stronger sinergy between their class and their sets. The same comparison can be made with the vast majority of stamina setups, outside a very select few.

Outside of Dragonleap, there's nothing left that makes other classes envious of a stamdk's kit. Before the nerfs, Wings and Fossilize were also in the list but for one reason or another both have been completely gutted and can't be used by stamdks anymore.

The class needs their passives and actives reworked from the ground up, basically requiring to create a new class almost from scratch. It's not going to happen.

[Minor edit for bashing.]

OBJnoob

I’ve played stamdk for like 3 years. They become good like a year ago. I can’t for the life of me understand why anyone thinks otherwise.

If you want to say they crutch on dizzy swing I guess you have a point but honestly who doesn’t? There’s plenty of downsides to dizzy swing.

For one thing wear medium armor. At least try it. You don’t feel like a dragon knight cuz you have to cast shuffle and roll dodge sometimes? K. Dk is a lot better now than they were when the only thing they were good at was standing there and blocking.

What does character identity actually mean? It’s supposed to be on you to make your character original or meta as you see fit and deal with the consequences.

So maybe I recommend don’t use fossilize. But you can if you want. And it might work good. And no other class can do it. Wings. Talons. Cauterize. Fragmented shield. Dots. Poison. Sword n shield. D leap. Ulti gen. Poison breath.

I’ve heard people say wardens can do all of that and do it slightly better. Maybe. Good wardens can be tough to beat. They generate a lot of ultimate if they want to. But what ultimate are they gonna use with it? Gonna drop trees on you? Northern storm? Pretty lousy ultimates if you ask me. Let’s be honest they’re gonna slot dawnbreaker. And as long as you keep shuffle up and pay attention to their beetles they have zero advantage over you. And yes they use dizzy swing also. So... where’s the identity?

Wing

i would like wings to be cheaper or last 10 seconds like warden so stam can make use of it, thats the only REAL buff / change i want off the top of my head to put them in a better spot.

that skill went from an iconic DK skill to one NOBODY uses, ever.

or green dragon blood have a living vines effect added to it where you get healed a bit when you get hit, or the minor lifesteal applied to targets, either or.

Zahirr

One more note: It's about the class identity. What is the reason to play dragonknight? Cool looking skills, certainly. Every other class has neato skills. But, for instance....

Necromancer is tankier then stamdk due to spirit mendor and a buncha, BUNCHA different healing skills (and passives, like curative curse). Sure, we're tankier for 6 seconds, but no stamina dk can stay alive casting fragmented shield every six seconds. Necromancer has more pressure with skills like blastbones (but, lets be honest, we can have a whole additional thread about why nerfing major defile on snipe and then putting it right back onto blastbones was a bad idea), They generate more ultimate with skills like bitter harvest, goliath is tankier then corrosive armor, and Colossus has the best debuff in the game, compared to 8% on one morph of Standard. Wardens have loads of buffs. Templars have massive team potential. Nightblades have incredible burst. Sorcerer... well, the only class that needs reworking more then StamDK is Stamsorc (best of luck to you guys out there that play stamsorc, you da real mvp).

It was never that dragonknight can't do anything. That there is nothing to love about the class. It's that, mechanically, necromancer does literally every aspect better, other then leap. And I don't think a whole class should be built around 1 skill. There should be several skills that a class can leverage against their foe. Not just two stamina ones and 50 magicka ones, because then you might as well just snip out those 2 stamina ones and play a magDK. Or, in the case of many, many people who have/play a stamdk, just sub out venemous claw and noxious breath and run grim focus, blastbones, shalks, etc etc and do the same thing but better.

Larcomar

Been playing around on mine. Surprised how weak he is in cyrodiil. Only play sorc and templar at vet level - nightblade snd warden still below 50 - but theres just no comparison to those two classes. Ive found the best solution is to equip a bow and stick in zerg groups. The 25% cost reduction on poison abilities and stam return from applying posion synergises quite well with bow abilities - lethal arrow, poisoned arrow, arrow spray. Hang back and spam. Not the most interesting gameplay - I wouldnt bother with him if it werent for the fact that hes right alliance for my guild - and a far cry from what I thought stam dk would be but it works ok.

OBJnoob

@Wing Despite what I said... I do mostly agree with what you said. I wouldn't cry or complain if Wings and/or Green Dragon Blood got a little love.

@Zahirr I've never played a necro so I can't speak real intelligently on it. Except to say that my DK stood toe to toe with every single one of them. And only lost or stalemated in the first week when I was like 'holy crap what is this blastbones thing how do I deal with it" or if they were backbarring the BRP dual wield and just... could never die in a duel. But anyway sure you're right... sorta. But of course Necro's are a little overtuned we all know about 'pay to win' even if we don't necessarily have a problem with it.

You can't compare stamDK to the two highest tier pvp specs and just because it comes up a little short (very little,) decide it needs a buff. You want to know what other unique thing DK has that I don't think stamnecro has? Minor Brutality. 10% more weapon damage is kinda a lot.

@Larcomar Listen no offense but please find a talented stamDK that you play with who is in your guild and can give you some advice. Most everybody I know that plays this game... they play one class better than any other. They can make things look good that others can't make look good. I'm a pretty good stamDK. Maybe you'd be a better Warden. But please don't just think 'meh I gotta zerg surf with this guy all the time' because that's not true.

God I can't remember who said what. Somebody said something about "can't cast fragmented shield every 6 seconds." You gotta change your build dude. No, you can't cast fragmented shield every 6 seconds. And you shouldn't have to. Change bars. Go on offense. Basically every pvp character needs some off-stat. It's not weird or annoying that DKs need magic. Their ultimates return magic. You can run tri-pots intermittently with Dragonleaps and basically sustain all 3 resources forever. If you want to. Use some tri-stat glyphs. Use a food/drink that helps. Sooo many options.

Zahirr

@OBJnoob you missed the point. You cant keep fragmented sheild up because is copiously expensive and only lasts for 6 seconds on the long morph. Wardens also bet minor brutality, for free. With no cost at all, unlike us who have to spend resources to get it. And you should be able to compare one class to other classes and say "hey, as one of the two classes without a combo skill (aka blastbones, shalks, grim focus, crystal frag, power of the light), we should get some more skills. We've all played pvp before, we all know how tri stats work and how battle roar works. We all know how to sustain. Got emperor twice on the ol stamdk build, believe me, Ive fought it all. Its that you need to work twice as hard as stamdk, because you have twice as little to work with. No one loves stamdk more then me, so it makes me sad that soooo many people all have one, but backbar the whole class because of its lack of options. Its not that Stamdk is IMPOSSIBLE, its that other classes like (really all of them but stamsorc) are so much BETTER.

OBJnoob

Haha. No, I think you missed the point. We were comparing dk to necro and now you want to say that warden has minor brutality. Well okay no I’m wrong we were definately talking about all three. But my point is that necro has things dk doesn’t, warden has things that dk doesn’t, and dk has things necro doesn’t. We want them all, overall, to be balanced but we don’t want them to be the same. Because then, like in this very thread, people will complain about a lack of class identity.

The truth, as normal, lies in the middle. Things aren’t completely equal and need balancing. But in my opinion stamdk is the wrong place to start.

Stamdk is fine. Buff something else first. They do have a delayed burst skill called flames of oblivion that scales with whatever stats are higher. If you choose not to use it... uuuh.

Before greymoor stamdks were 2nd to top tier according to everyone I personally know, play with, and think are knowledgeable. Now that greymoor is here I hear a band of malacath dot dk with corrosive armor is also one of the best things around.

But you’re entitled to your opinion. Maybe you just know more than me and my friends.

Or maybe I have a great time in my stamdk and you don’t so you should listen more.

wheem_ESO

Stam DK is actually still one of the best classes in the game, at least for no-CP. It's light years ahead of the supposedly pay-to-win (Magicka) Necromancer. And Stam Sorc is actually really outstanding in no-CP right now as well, not that it's really ever been "bad" (at least not for a really long time).

I'd be fine with pretty much any classes getting fixes or tweaks to various mechanics, especially if it encourages some more build diversity. But we also need to keep overall balance in mind; Stamina builds simply can't get straight up buffs right now, unless they either get some simultaneous nerfs, or non-Sorc Magicka builds get some really big improvements at the same time.

Zahirr

But can we both agree that stone fist is pretty bad? If even just visually?

OBJnoob

I mean now that off balance makes it so any damage done to them stuns them instead of having to land a heavy... yea, stone fist is pretty bad. Plus Stuhns Favor and all that jazz. But assuming you had someone in your group that is putting people off balance halfway reliably and you're in no-cp so off balance is less important...

Stone fist is 'iight.' It tooltips for like 1k less than Dizzy Swing but it's an instacast, the first hit is multi-target AoE, and the next 3 hits have a range of like 28m. Once every 4 seconds it costs less. And it keeps up your minor brutality so you don't feel the need to cast fragmented shield every 6 seconds (good god stop trying to cast it every 6 seconds)

I wouldn't necessarily say that spin to win is a good idea on a stamDK but, for the record-- Poisonous Breath, first cast of Stone Fist, D-Leap, spin spin spin is a lot of AoE damage. Heck you could even wear New Moons + Shackle + Balorghs... use proxy det and Inhale for delayed burst that lands at the same time as your D-Leap gap closer. And now you're pretty much a legitimate bomber. Will you win duels? Naw. Neva. But nobody can say you don't have class identity

Zahirr

Youre not gunna kill anyone using flames of oblivion, inhale, and proxy det on a stamdk. Or using stone fist. That version of class identity is just being a bad bomber. Might as well slot Oragami and try to kill your foe by throwing paper balloons at them

OBJnoob

Got news for ya bud D-Leap and 1 Spin is enough to kill 'somebody.' The other stuff is just icing on the cake. No I wouldn't ever run Proxy det... but if you don't see the synergy between New Moons, Shackle, and Balorghs then I'm just done with this conversation. You don't seem like someone who knows what they're talking about.

I have no idea if you are trying to do damage or trying to be tanky. Medium armor or heavy armor. I don't really care if you manage to salvage your DK or not.

I'm just here to say that DKs are amazing. If I were to take yet another blind guess at what your own problem might be... I'd say get yourself some respectable weapon damage. Can't kill anybody with a D-Leap.... pssssssh. Gotta cast fragmented shield every 6 seconds.... pssssh.

Zahirr

You are more then welcome to duel sometime if you want. @Za'hirr on PCNA. I play a lot of cyrodiil and regularly fight some of the best guys on the server. Whether or not I win, thats another story lol. But we're not talking about builds. This isn't a build help post. This is a post about the class. About the skills. New Moons, Shackle, and Balorghs is good on EVERY CLASS (though you'd probably want to sub in fury instead of shackle, or essence thief if you really wanna do some damage). The issue is with the actual skills. I never said Leap was bad, I said Leap is the only good skill we've got, and that everything else is meh at best. You're not gunna kill anyone but a trash mob with a leap and 1 spin, sorry to tell ya. And either way, That. Shouldn't. Be. The. Only. Thing. DK. Does. I want something else to do with my dragonknight other then press leap all day. I want other mechanics other then "press ult, wait until ult recharges, press ult again". Every single other class in the game waits for their ult to be up, and they all have other mechanics and class identities to go off. Give stamDK anything. Anything worthwhile. I'd take a meh system like dead bodies from Stamnecro even, just to have some other way to kill people aside from leap.

And yes, I do run 7k weapon damage and around 10k pen, and there is nothing but the hand of good himself that can make Flames of Oblivion do more damage then it's current state (that state being, about as damaging as a splinter on a frost troll).

OBJnoob

Listen no I don't want to duel and anyway I'm on Xbox. And I'm sorry for being rude with you. But for you to say "naw you won't kill anybody with new moons, shackle, balorghs, and a D-Leap" and then in the next post say "new moons, shackle, and balorghs is good on everybody. I have 7k WD and 10K pen on my stamdk." <-- I mean that just doesn't make sense bro.

I doubt you'd get to 7k WD using New Moon and Shackle but it'd get pretty high if you wanted it to. And you'd have more than 10k pen using balorghs. So if you can kill anybody NOW then you could also kill somebody doing what I described.

Not that I would personally run my DK that way. But it would work (and like all bombers would probably die in the process.) I know it would work. You know it would work. You just want to occasionally SAY it wouldn't work so you can not lose the argument. Like it hurts your ego somehow that you'd create a "buff DK thread" and somebody might actually suggest you aren't playing DK to its full potential.

"Dragonknights have one of the hardest hitting single target ults, yes... but why? aren't we supposed to be the dot class? Wouldn't it make more sense for the dot class to have... a dot ult? Or even a dot spammable?"

^--- First of all D-Leap hits more than one target. And maybe the answer to 'why' it hits so hard is because (even though you're wrong to think this,) DKs don't have a delayed burst skill so that is how ZOS balanced it. Second of all no we aren't supposed to be the dot class. You're either working on some very very very new ideas, which is good (but unlikely cuz if you were then, again, you'd realize DKs are good,) or you're working on some very very bad ideas from like 2 years ago when DKs were indeed a bit weak.

"We should be brave, courageous Dragonknights! Foolhardy warriors who leap into battle with reckless abandon, Shaking the ground and making our presence known in a sea of fire!"

^--- See I think it's really your own concept of what a DK should be that is dying. The DK itself is absolutely fine. Permablocking got nerfed in the past. Heavy armor got nerfed in the past. Dots got nerfed in the past. Stop relying on these things dude. Use Shuffle for chrissake.

OR. Put New Moon, Shackle, and Balorghs on like I said and "leap into battle with reckless abandon."