The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Maintenance for the week of May 13:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – May 13
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – May 14, 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – May 13
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – May 14, 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
Confirmed: more 'year-long story' style content coming after Elsweyr. (Please no, you can do better)
bluebird
✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
✭✭✭
So, this post is a case against the year-long story approach that is apparently going to be the future of ESO content.
During the recent Quakecon 2019 panel about ESO, 'Building Tamriel', the devs talked about the new 'year-long story' approach to creating content. They mentioned that they liked that all four quarterly releases are tied to one cohesive theme and story, and they see no reason to change it. They also basically confirmed that after 2019's 'Season of the Dragon' in which Wrathstone, Elsweyr, Scalebreaker and Dragonhold were interconnected, they are planning on taking this approach forward and creating the next 'Season of the [insert theme here]' for 2020 and beyond.
**********
1. Rich mentioned that they like the year-long story approach: 'We decided with Elsweyr that we wanted to tell this year-long story, so that the entire year was focused on that, so when new players came in or returning players came in they kinda knew what was going on and where they could start is they wanted to start or they could just jump in and continue on the story as they see fit.'
But I'm sorry, that doesn't make sense. Having a year-long story makes it less likely that new and returning players will know what's going on and where they can start. Oh, you want to play Dragonhold? You won't understand what's up with Elsweyr (since Dragonhold takes place is Southern Elsweyr) if you didn't play Elsweyr, and you won't understand what's up with all the dragons if you didn't play Wrathstone or the Elsweyr Prologue.
The older system is better in this regard, because if a new or returning player wants to know what's going on and where they can start if they want to play Summerset, they go play Summerset. If they want to know what's up with Murkmire, they play Murkmire. And they don't have to do Dragonbones to understand what's going on or where they should start.
His second point there, that players can just jump in and continue the story as they see fit is also counterintuitive. If the stories are self-contained, such as the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood and Orsinium, players have a lot more choice to just jump in and continue as they see fit. With the year-long story however, that choice is actually punishing. Players will lose out on huge chunks of story, background knowledge, character interactions if they want to join for Dragonhold without having played Elsweyr first. With the Dark Brotherhood, you didn't feel like you're getting the second half of an earlier DLC for example, and the DB DLC experience you got for your buck was equal, whether you bought earlier DLCs or not. Tying content together like this seems more beneficial for a company in terms of sales, and more of a hinderance for players in terms of freedom of coming in and 'knowing what's going on and being able to start as they see fit'.
2. Rich also described their earlier model of content design - such as Dragonbones, Summerset, Woldhunter, and Murkmire forming a year - as a 'hodgepodge of stories that didn't really connect to one another.' And Matt added that with Elsweyr they started the system in which 'All four content drops over the year tell the same story essentially''
However, I have to argue against this and point out the reverse: having the same theme, same story, same region, same NPCs for an entire year is far more boring. With the year-long story, players have nothing to look forward to for an entire year than cats and dragons, and more of the same. If somebody dislikes cats and dragons they will be turned off of the game for an entire year, whereas they could come back for Murkmire even if they didn't like High Elves for example. And even if a person likes cats and dragons, no matter how good the content is, it does get repetitive and uninspiring if we spend almost the entire year doing the same things in the same environments. Orsinium, the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood delivered unique stories, with unique themes, locations, characters, and they're great full-fledged DLCs in their own right which were very memorable.
They each had their own vibe and feel, and people have distinct memories that stand out from each of these; whereas people will find a lot less variety in Elsweyr, Scalebreaker and Dragonhold which are just slight variations on the same thing (see image).
That also relates to the issue of calling a varied content year a 'hodgepodge'. Arguably, that's the best part of Elder Scrolls. It has so many races and cultures and places which are wonderful and worth exploring! ESO is great because it is varied and full of different stories and characters! Not because it has three Bosmer zones back to back, or because we spend an entire year with nothing except Khajiit and Dragons. Tamriel has far more interesting stories to tell! It would have been an injustice to Murkmire if the end of 2018 was dedicated to more High Elves and white marble, and we would have lost out on the flavourful and fun Wolfhunter update if we had gotten a dungeon DLC with more High Elves. So it's not just a matter of Khajiit getting several months' worth of content, it's about all the other content that doesn't get made, all the stories that don't get told, as a result.
3. Rich also mentioned an interesting angle on why year-long stories are good, that 'It's easier on the team, because the art team know what they are building, and the content team know what they're building, so it's a lot easier in terms of workflow.'
I don't doubt that year-long stories are great for the developers, in terms of reusing assets versus having to create unique styles for distinct areas and cultures. However, from a player perspective, this seems like a cop-out. No matter how much I liked Summerset for example, if I had to spend Wolfhunter and Murkmire staring at more while marble spires and elf ladies in silken dresses, it would have made for a far more tedious 2018. Yet this is what's happening in 2019, with nothing but variations on the same Khajiit vibe with the same sandy stones and the same cats and dragons.
Getting the Argonian crafting motifs and furniture after getting the Hircine-and-Silver-Dawn items after getting the elaborate Summerset ones was a lot more refreshing and motivating than getting six types of Khajiiti stairs and yet another vaguely-South-East-Asian-inspired armor. And this isn't against Elsweyr, I liked the update itself, I just don't think that dragging out the same theme and story for a year makes for a particularly interesting content schedule.
4. Matt also mentioned some other angle on why they consider the year-long story a success, he said that 'it has been hugely successful having one marketing tool like the CG videos [...] that tell the same story [...] it has been hugely successful for us'.
Which again seems like a company-perspective rather than 'is this really the best content design for the game' perspective. For example, I'm not sure how much of that success is mis-attributed to the year-long story, when really it was due to Elsweyr alone. People have been waiting for some quality cat content for a long time, people have been asking for necromancers for an even longer time, and dragons sounded exciting to some Skyrims fans, I'm sure. But the successful numbers that ZOS is seeing right now all come from Elsweyr, not from Scalecaller or Dragonhold, so it would be wrong to conclude that the year-long story is what brought people in. The cinematics are the same, while they are clearly great ways to generate hype, ZOS haven't tried to do the same for unrelated stories as far as I know - Orsinium, the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood didn't have their own cinematics, even though those could have worked to generate hype just as well as 'dragon cinematic one' and 'dragon cinematic two'. And Elsweyr could have generated enough hype as a standalone Chapter even if it was followed by some other themes (such as Nord or Imperial content which would have generated plenty of hype on its own too, believe me
).
**********
So...Thoughts? Preferences? Surely there is a happy medium somewhere, between entirely unrelated content and spending a year on the same theme and story. I consider Wrathstone to be an example of how to do things right for example. It involed a frosty Dwemer dungeon, and an Ayleid ruin dungeon. These were different from each other, and different from Elsweyr itself to be an exciting and interesting DLC on its own, but it still tied into the story without being too similar. Or the way they actually pulled off the Daedric Triad storyline. Morrowind, Clockwork City, and Summerset had an interconnected story as well, that had overarching narratives and characters. Still, the specific themes and locations were unique enough so that these stood out as distinct DLCs. Why not go back to that model?
What do you think, do you prefer unrelated stories (Orsinium/Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood), slightly related stories (Morrowind/Clockwork City/Summerset), or year-long stories (Elsweyr/Scalebreaker/Dragonhold)?
***********
Update with Scalebreaker and Dragonhold: I'm sorry to say that I was right in my concerns and the 'year-long story' indeed seems like an excuse to get away with creating less content than earlier years. So yes the final verdict seems to be that the 'year-long story' is worse for the game since it means you use it as an excuse to cut costs for the company, by using it to generate hype instead of delivering the content that the playerbase deserves.
Edited by bluebird on September 23, 2019 11:56PM During the recent Quakecon 2019 panel about ESO, 'Building Tamriel', the devs talked about the new 'year-long story' approach to creating content. They mentioned that they liked that all four quarterly releases are tied to one cohesive theme and story, and they see no reason to change it. They also basically confirmed that after 2019's 'Season of the Dragon' in which Wrathstone, Elsweyr, Scalebreaker and Dragonhold were interconnected, they are planning on taking this approach forward and creating the next 'Season of the [insert theme here]' for 2020 and beyond.
**********
1. Rich mentioned that they like the year-long story approach: 'We decided with Elsweyr that we wanted to tell this year-long story, so that the entire year was focused on that, so when new players came in or returning players came in they kinda knew what was going on and where they could start is they wanted to start or they could just jump in and continue on the story as they see fit.'
But I'm sorry, that doesn't make sense. Having a year-long story makes it less likely that new and returning players will know what's going on and where they can start. Oh, you want to play Dragonhold? You won't understand what's up with Elsweyr (since Dragonhold takes place is Southern Elsweyr) if you didn't play Elsweyr, and you won't understand what's up with all the dragons if you didn't play Wrathstone or the Elsweyr Prologue.
The older system is better in this regard, because if a new or returning player wants to know what's going on and where they can start if they want to play Summerset, they go play Summerset. If they want to know what's up with Murkmire, they play Murkmire. And they don't have to do Dragonbones to understand what's going on or where they should start.His second point there, that players can just jump in and continue the story as they see fit is also counterintuitive. If the stories are self-contained, such as the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood and Orsinium, players have a lot more choice to just jump in and continue as they see fit. With the year-long story however, that choice is actually punishing. Players will lose out on huge chunks of story, background knowledge, character interactions if they want to join for Dragonhold without having played Elsweyr first. With the Dark Brotherhood, you didn't feel like you're getting the second half of an earlier DLC for example, and the DB DLC experience you got for your buck was equal, whether you bought earlier DLCs or not. Tying content together like this seems more beneficial for a company in terms of sales, and more of a hinderance for players in terms of freedom of coming in and 'knowing what's going on and being able to start as they see fit'.
2. Rich also described their earlier model of content design - such as Dragonbones, Summerset, Woldhunter, and Murkmire forming a year - as a 'hodgepodge of stories that didn't really connect to one another.' And Matt added that with Elsweyr they started the system in which 'All four content drops over the year tell the same story essentially''
However, I have to argue against this and point out the reverse: having the same theme, same story, same region, same NPCs for an entire year is far more boring. With the year-long story, players have nothing to look forward to for an entire year than cats and dragons, and more of the same. If somebody dislikes cats and dragons they will be turned off of the game for an entire year, whereas they could come back for Murkmire even if they didn't like High Elves for example. And even if a person likes cats and dragons, no matter how good the content is, it does get repetitive and uninspiring if we spend almost the entire year doing the same things in the same environments. Orsinium, the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood delivered unique stories, with unique themes, locations, characters, and they're great full-fledged DLCs in their own right which were very memorable.
They each had their own vibe and feel, and people have distinct memories that stand out from each of these; whereas people will find a lot less variety in Elsweyr, Scalebreaker and Dragonhold which are just slight variations on the same thing (see image).That also relates to the issue of calling a varied content year a 'hodgepodge'. Arguably, that's the best part of Elder Scrolls. It has so many races and cultures and places which are wonderful and worth exploring! ESO is great because it is varied and full of different stories and characters! Not because it has three Bosmer zones back to back, or because we spend an entire year with nothing except Khajiit and Dragons. Tamriel has far more interesting stories to tell! It would have been an injustice to Murkmire if the end of 2018 was dedicated to more High Elves and white marble, and we would have lost out on the flavourful and fun Wolfhunter update if we had gotten a dungeon DLC with more High Elves. So it's not just a matter of Khajiit getting several months' worth of content, it's about all the other content that doesn't get made, all the stories that don't get told, as a result.
3. Rich also mentioned an interesting angle on why year-long stories are good, that 'It's easier on the team, because the art team know what they are building, and the content team know what they're building, so it's a lot easier in terms of workflow.'
I don't doubt that year-long stories are great for the developers, in terms of reusing assets versus having to create unique styles for distinct areas and cultures. However, from a player perspective, this seems like a cop-out. No matter how much I liked Summerset for example, if I had to spend Wolfhunter and Murkmire staring at more while marble spires and elf ladies in silken dresses, it would have made for a far more tedious 2018. Yet this is what's happening in 2019, with nothing but variations on the same Khajiit vibe with the same sandy stones and the same cats and dragons.
Getting the Argonian crafting motifs and furniture after getting the Hircine-and-Silver-Dawn items after getting the elaborate Summerset ones was a lot more refreshing and motivating than getting six types of Khajiiti stairs and yet another vaguely-South-East-Asian-inspired armor. And this isn't against Elsweyr, I liked the update itself, I just don't think that dragging out the same theme and story for a year makes for a particularly interesting content schedule.4. Matt also mentioned some other angle on why they consider the year-long story a success, he said that 'it has been hugely successful having one marketing tool like the CG videos [...] that tell the same story [...] it has been hugely successful for us'.
Which again seems like a company-perspective rather than 'is this really the best content design for the game' perspective. For example, I'm not sure how much of that success is mis-attributed to the year-long story, when really it was due to Elsweyr alone. People have been waiting for some quality cat content for a long time, people have been asking for necromancers for an even longer time, and dragons sounded exciting to some Skyrims fans, I'm sure. But the successful numbers that ZOS is seeing right now all come from Elsweyr, not from Scalecaller or Dragonhold, so it would be wrong to conclude that the year-long story is what brought people in. The cinematics are the same, while they are clearly great ways to generate hype, ZOS haven't tried to do the same for unrelated stories as far as I know - Orsinium, the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood didn't have their own cinematics, even though those could have worked to generate hype just as well as 'dragon cinematic one' and 'dragon cinematic two'. And Elsweyr could have generated enough hype as a standalone Chapter even if it was followed by some other themes (such as Nord or Imperial content which would have generated plenty of hype on its own too, believe me
).**********
So...Thoughts? Preferences? Surely there is a happy medium somewhere, between entirely unrelated content and spending a year on the same theme and story. I consider Wrathstone to be an example of how to do things right for example. It involed a frosty Dwemer dungeon, and an Ayleid ruin dungeon. These were different from each other, and different from Elsweyr itself to be an exciting and interesting DLC on its own, but it still tied into the story without being too similar. Or the way they actually pulled off the Daedric Triad storyline. Morrowind, Clockwork City, and Summerset had an interconnected story as well, that had overarching narratives and characters. Still, the specific themes and locations were unique enough so that these stood out as distinct DLCs. Why not go back to that model?
What do you think, do you prefer unrelated stories (Orsinium/Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood), slightly related stories (Morrowind/Clockwork City/Summerset), or year-long stories (Elsweyr/Scalebreaker/Dragonhold)?
***********
Update with Scalebreaker and Dragonhold: I'm sorry to say that I was right in my concerns and the 'year-long story' indeed seems like an excuse to get away with creating less content than earlier years. So yes the final verdict seems to be that the 'year-long story' is worse for the game since it means you use it as an excuse to cut costs for the company, by using it to generate hype instead of delivering the content that the playerbase deserves.
93
-
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭BlackStormX wrote: »Season of the Bug & Performance fixes, I'm up for that one.
Should have been a 5 year long story.Edited by mairwen85 on July 27, 2019 10:57PM43 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The Year of the Dragon is awful for new players who want to play chronologically.
Let's break it down.
If they want everything to make sense, a new player who spawns into Elsweyr's tutorial with dragons already present must:
1. Play the Main Quest up until they've rescued Abnur Tharn and Sai Sahan
2. Reach level 45 in order to queue for the Wrathstone dungeons
3. Play the Elsweyr Prologue
4. Play Elsweyr
That's terrible storytelling. New players have already beaten dragons in Elsweyr long before they help Abnur Tharn escape the Worm Cult or help him unleash the dragons in the first place with the Elsweyr Prologue.
Just awful.
Morrowind -> Clockwork City -> Summerset likewise has issues, mostly with pacing. Morrowind has to happen first to open up the CWC. CWC closes off what's otherwise a major plot hole in Summerset. And Summerset is far more climatic than the other two, as fits the end of the story.
Year long stories are great for advertising and drumming up hype and for experienced players who begin playing in Q1 and keep playing through Q4.
They are terribly disjointed storytelling experiences for anyone who starts at a later part of the story.
The best thing ZOS could do to fix the above is to give us a choice of starting tutorial so new players can decide to jump into new content or preserve the chronology.Edited by VaranisArano on July 27, 2019 11:47PM99 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have no issues whatsoever with this approach.
Especially since they -can- mix it up anyhow... remember that "daedric triad conspiracy" arc? Nicely mixed up. So what if they want to make more together - as long as they deliver nice things, I care not. (though I do wish they would manage -two- story DLCs per year instead of just one...)17 -
therift✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I strongly support all four points made by ZoS. They are absolutely correct.
The argument that year-long story cycles 'confuse' new players is very weak. A hodge-podge of unrelated content that is essentially bolted on the game is far more confusing.
ESO releases content at a faster pace than any other MMO-RPG, as far as I know. Ninety-day cycles is amazingly fast, and it is a pace I would like to see continue. To maintain the pace, and to keep the quality of the content high, Rich is correct... the design teams need more than a couple of weeks' notice.
This does not mean that other story ideas are excluded. Now that the process of planning and executing a year-long story line has been worked out, larger story arcs that involve disparate areas of the game world can be developed.
There are innumerable examples of long term story arcs in literature and film. This idea will be another success for ZoS and yet one more improvement for other games to emulate.
45 -
BennyButton✭✭✭✭BlackStormX wrote: »Season of the Bug & Performance fixes, I'm up for that one.
Should have been a 5 year long story.
They don't have the budget for an update this big5 -
therift✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Edited by therift on July 27, 2019 11:20PM9 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭BennyButton wrote: »BlackStormX wrote: »Season of the Bug & Performance fixes, I'm up for that one.
Should have been a 5 year long story.
They don't have the budget for an update this big
'Should have' -- past tense, implying that bug and performance fixes over the current life cycle could have taken priority.
How do you know how big their budget is anyway? Big enough for celebrity voice actors, but not for code tweaks and asset optimization... hmmmmmmmm5 -
luen79rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭More ez development and more standarization for the players *rolls eyes*PC/DC/NAserver
V16 sorc - V16 temp - V16 dk - V1 nb - V1 temp - V1 dk10 -
jainiadral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bad news
Solo players don't actually see half of the story because it's gated behind group content. Difficult, mechanic-heavy group content. I'd hoped this approach during Elsweyr was an abberation. To find out ZOS is doubling down on story gating is disapponting, to put it mildly. I don't have an issue necessarily with tying the chapter and zone content together, but shoving group dungeons into the whole process is exclusionary and unfair.
That said, I prefer more varied content and smaller stories. I love kitties, but I am so frigging sick of dragons. Am not looking forward to next year full of whatever they're going to choke me with.43 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So long as the story is good I don't care if they are themed for a year or not.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."15 -
SassiestAssassin✭✭✭Personally, I prefer the DLCs having small threads connecting to the bigger stories like they had been (Dark Brotherhood for Morrowind, Clockwork City for Summerset) and just being their own thing for the most part.
For dungeons, it’s neat maybe meeting some of the chapter characters, but not super necessary to the plot. (Trying to follow a story in a dungeon with an impatient group? Not gonna happen.)
Also, they desperately need a new system where you can choose your character’s beginning, be it the base game or any of the chapter you own.*slams a gallon of Respecting Support Roles juice on the table* Take a sip, babes.19 -
Cireous✭✭✭✭✭
✭I can't say for sure, since I haven't experienced the "Elsweyr 2" update, yet, but this feels really bad to me at the moment. It appears as if they are taking the chapter zone, splitting in two parts, and putting out one part at the beginning of the year and the other at the end. Which means our content every year has just been halved. Does this mean that all the recipe drops will be the same within both parts of our one zone? What about motifs? Quality of life changes? And this is just how it's going to be from now on? One chapter (translate: zone) a year and new dungeons that most everyone plays once for the skill point and abandons? It already felt like we were getting a lot less every year when one dungeon DLC entirely replaced a game changing quality of life DLC (see: Homestead), and now the other zone DLC has just been replaced with the same zone, but more of it later.
I wish they would have at least given us SOME hype towards the next zone update, today, instead of tip toeing around what it is and what we will get. An actual list of new quality of life fixes other than the "promised" performance ones would have been interesting. A look at something new that seems fun, at all, would have been even better, especially with all the negativity that's out there with the combat changes right now.
I don't know. Hopefully I am wrong, and I'll be pleasantly surprised come Q4, but right now it's looking like our offerings are becoming smaller and smaller, and with more of the same coming year after year.
This is just really disappointing.20 -
Jagdkommando✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »The Year of the Dragon is awful for new players who want to play chronologically.
Let's break it down.
If they want everything to make sense, a new player who spawns into Elsweyr's tutorial with dragons already present must:
1. Play the Main Quest up until they've rescued Abnur Tharn and Sai Sahan
2. Reach level 45 in order to queue for the Wrathstone dungeons
3. Play the Elsweyr Prologue
4. Play Elsweyr
That's terrible storytelling. New players have already beaten dragons in Elsweyr long before they help Abnur Tharn escape the Worm Cult or help him unleash the dragons in the first place with the Elsweyr Prologue.
Just awful.
Morrowind -> Clockwork City -> Summerset likewise has issues, mostly with pacing. Morrowind has to happen first to open up the CWC. CWC closes off what's otherwise a major plot hole in Summerset. And Summerset is far more climatic than the other two, as fits the end of the story.
Year long stories are great for advertising and drumming up hype and for experienced players who begin playing in Q1 and keep playing through Q4.
They are terribly disjointed storytelling experiences for anyone who starts at a later part of the story.
The best thing ZOS could do to fix the above is to give us a choice of starting tutorial so new players can decide to jump into new content or preserve the chronology.
agree 1000%, worst idea of ZOS is to change starting location from prison to new chapters38 -
Rex-Umbra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭First four dlcs were the best. Imperial city, Orsinium, thieves guild and dark brotherhood. Each was drastically different and offered new gameplay and mechanics. Story dlc is meh if it doesnt add anything different.Edited by Rex-Umbra on July 27, 2019 11:56PMXbox GT: Rex Umbrah
GM of IMPERIUM since 2015.13 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Jagdkommando wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »The Year of the Dragon is awful for new players who want to play chronologically.
Let's break it down.
If they want everything to make sense, a new player who spawns into Elsweyr's tutorial with dragons already present must:
1. Play the Main Quest up until they've rescued Abnur Tharn and Sai Sahan
2. Reach level 45 in order to queue for the Wrathstone dungeons
3. Play the Elsweyr Prologue
4. Play Elsweyr
That's terrible storytelling. New players have already beaten dragons in Elsweyr long before they help Abnur Tharn escape the Worm Cult or help him unleash the dragons in the first place with the Elsweyr Prologue.
Just awful.
Morrowind -> Clockwork City -> Summerset likewise has issues, mostly with pacing. Morrowind has to happen first to open up the CWC. CWC closes off what's otherwise a major plot hole in Summerset. And Summerset is far more climatic than the other two, as fits the end of the story.
Year long stories are great for advertising and drumming up hype and for experienced players who begin playing in Q1 and keep playing through Q4.
They are terribly disjointed storytelling experiences for anyone who starts at a later part of the story.
The best thing ZOS could do to fix the above is to give us a choice of starting tutorial so new players can decide to jump into new content or preserve the chronology.
agree 1000%, worst idea of ZOS is to change starting location from prison to new chapters
From a marketing/game design standpoint, it makes sense. Put players right in the new content they just bought.
From a storytelling perspective, its terrible. Numerous quests in the base game and a few in newer zones assume you've lost your soul in the Coldharbor beginning. Back when Summerset was the latest chapter, we had players starting in Part 3 of the Daedric Wars story arc - it was designed to be standalone, but it makes more sense with the preceding two.
For an MMORPG, ZOS really needs to think about their new player experience from a story perspective.24 -
bluebird✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
But the post points out that many of them were indeed factually wrong. No, year-long stories don't make it easier for new and old players to jump back in and understand what's going on. No, year-long stories don't give players more choice about where they start. No, the success of Elsweyr doesn't mean that people love having the same theme and location for an entire year, it just means that players liked Elsweyr; there are no numbers to show support for Dragonhold, and no numbers to show what the support for a Skyrim story DLC would have been, if they chose that instead of Dragonhold.I strongly support all four points made by ZoS. They are absolutely correct.
That is not to say that you can't support year-long stories of course! You're free to disagre! Just not for those reasons; because most of ZOS's rationale isn't true. The only reasons they mentioned which are correct is that it's easier for devs to generate content that way, and it's easier to generate hype with cinematics. None of which justify that system or make up for its flaws from a player perspective, as far as I'm concerned.
Regarding ESO's content releases, they aren't faster than other MMOs. They're faster than SWTOR for example, but not faster than GW2, FFXIV or WoW. GW2 releases a zone or a trial every three months so it's pretty similar to ESO, FFXIV releases its expansions every two years instead of every year, but it has well over double the content (two classes, two new races, three new zones, nine new dungeons, two raids, new game systems) and WoW of course releases major chunks of new content including new zones dungeons and raids with more frequency than ESO does.ESO releases content at a faster pace than any other MMO-RPG, as far as I know.
And as for long-term story arcs in lterature and film, surely you can see how that's different. The Lord of the Rings series didn't focus three books on the Shire and Bree, there was significant progress there, we got to visit Moria, Rohan, Gondor and Mordor just to name a few. Just as ESO managed to tell a related story throughout Morrowind, Clockwork City and Summerset, without having to spend 9 months fighting kwama surrounded by Dunmer architecture. Would people have liked LotR to spend two more books in the Shire, if that meant that Rohan gets cut, or that Harry Potter wouldn't come out? No, just like Argonian and Werewolf fans are probably a lot happier that Murkmire and Wolfhunter got some attention instead of adding two more High-Elf DLCs.There are innumerable examples of long term story arcs in literature and film. This idea will be another success for ZoS and yet one more improvement for other games to emulate.16 -
WhiteCoatSyndrome✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭What amuses me is that if they keep going with year-long stories with no one-offs in between, then the theoretically-climatic finish will always be the mini-zone expansion and never the big Chapter, just like this year.#proud2BAStarObsessedLoony
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
A useful explanation for how RNG works15 -
Jagdkommando✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Jagdkommando wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »The Year of the Dragon is awful for new players who want to play chronologically.
Let's break it down.
If they want everything to make sense, a new player who spawns into Elsweyr's tutorial with dragons already present must:
1. Play the Main Quest up until they've rescued Abnur Tharn and Sai Sahan
2. Reach level 45 in order to queue for the Wrathstone dungeons
3. Play the Elsweyr Prologue
4. Play Elsweyr
That's terrible storytelling. New players have already beaten dragons in Elsweyr long before they help Abnur Tharn escape the Worm Cult or help him unleash the dragons in the first place with the Elsweyr Prologue.
Just awful.
Morrowind -> Clockwork City -> Summerset likewise has issues, mostly with pacing. Morrowind has to happen first to open up the CWC. CWC closes off what's otherwise a major plot hole in Summerset. And Summerset is far more climatic than the other two, as fits the end of the story.
Year long stories are great for advertising and drumming up hype and for experienced players who begin playing in Q1 and keep playing through Q4.
They are terribly disjointed storytelling experiences for anyone who starts at a later part of the story.
The best thing ZOS could do to fix the above is to give us a choice of starting tutorial so new players can decide to jump into new content or preserve the chronology.
agree 1000%, worst idea of ZOS is to change starting location from prison to new chapters
From a marketing/game design standpoint, it makes sense. Put players right in the new content they just bought.
From a storytelling perspective, its terrible. Numerous quests in the base game and a few in newer zones assume you've lost your soul in the Coldharbor beginning. Back when Summerset was the latest chapter, we had players starting in Part 3 of the Daedric Wars story arc - it was designed to be standalone, but it makes more sense with the preceding two.
For an MMORPG, ZOS really needs to think about their new player experience from a story perspective.
at least they can create a simple BUTTON which responsible for skipping storyline and teleports player from prison into new bought content, im sure 98% of players will not choose skip option. All the things we ask, storyline, balance, performance etc is really easy to accomplish, i have really no clue why ZOS dont do it....4 -
therift✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
But the post points out that many of them were indeed factually wrong. No, year-long stories don't make it easier for new and old players to jump back in and understand what's going on. No, year-long stories don't give players more choice about where they start. No, the success of Elsweyr doesn't mean that people love having the same theme and location for an entire year, it just means that players liked Elsweyr; there are no numbers to show support for Dragonhold, and no numbers to show what the support for a Skyrim story DLC would have been, if they chose that instead of Dragonhold.I strongly support all four points made by ZoS. They are absolutely correct.
That is not to say that you can't support year-long stories of course! You're free to disagre! Just not for those reasons; because most of ZOS's rationale isn't true. The only reasons they mentioned which are correct is that it's easier for devs to generate content that way, and it's easier to generate hype with cinematics. None of which justify that system or make up for its flaws from a player perspective, as far as I'm concerned.
Regarding ESO's content releases, they aren't faster than other MMOs. They're faster than SWTOR for example, but not faster than GW2, FFXIV or WoW. GW2 releases a zone or a trial every three months so it's pretty similar to ESO, FFXIV releases its expansions every two years instead of every year, but it has well over double the content (two classes, two new races, three new zones, nine new dungeons, two raids, new game systems) and WoW of course releases major chunks of new content including new zones dungeons and raids with more frequency than ESO does.ESO releases content at a faster pace than any other MMO-RPG, as far as I know.
And as for long-term story arcs in lterature and film, surely you can see how that's different. The Lord of the Rings series didn't focus three books on the Shire and Bree, there was significant progress there, we got to visit Moria, Rohan, Gondor and Mordor just to name a few. Just as ESO managed to tell a related story throughout Morrowind, Clockwork City and Summerset, without having to spend 9 months fighting kwama surrounded by Dunmer architecture. Would people have liked LotR to spend two more books in the Shire, if that meant that Rohan gets cut, or that Harry Potter wouldn't come out? No, just like Argonian and Werewolf fans are probably a lot happier that Murkmire and Wolfhunter got some attention instead of adding two more High-Elf DLCs.There are innumerable examples of long term story arcs in literature and film. This idea will be another success for ZoS and yet one more improvement for other games to emulate.
You've made excellent counterpoints.
I agree that new characters should start with the Main Quest as an option. The real overall arc of ESO is Molag Bal's Planemeld and all of its attendant woes. It should be fairly simple to shuttle players to the Chapter start point of their choice afterwards.
We'll disagree on some of the details of ZoS's new story arc plan. I appreciate the details of other RPG-MMOs content releases schedules, but I still hold that connecting quarterly content will offer greater cohesion than not.
I guess we'll see which view pans out.
5 -
logarifmik✭✭✭✭✭
✭
LOL! Bad news, guys, your game is "fractured, but whole", and making year-long stories can't fix it. You'll only end up with even more stories without adequate connection to each other anyway. The best decision would be to hold back your greed to reconsider the Vestige story and find some way to make it more consistent.'hodgepodge of stories that didn't really connect to one another.'
Agreed. We solo players need story-mode for the dungeons.jainiadral wrote: »Bad newsSolo players don't actually see half of the story because it's gated behind group content. Difficult, mechanic-heavy group content. I'd hoped this approach during Elsweyr was an abberation. To find out ZOS is doubling down on story gating is disapponting, to put it mildly. I don't have an issue necessarily with tying the chapter and zone content together, but shoving group dungeons into the whole process is exclusionary and unfair.
EU PC: @logarifmik | Languages: Русский, English
Dimitri Frernis | Breton Sorcerer | Damage Dealer | Daggerfall Covenant
Scales-of-Ice | Argonian Warden | Tank / Healer | Daggerfall Covenant23 -
Nemesis7884✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jainiadral wrote: »Bad news Solo players don't actually see half of the story because it's gated behind group content. Difficult, mechanic-heavy group content. I'd hoped this approach during Elsweyr was an abberation. To find out ZOS is doubling down on story gating is disapponting, to put it mildly. I don't have an issue necessarily with tying the chapter and zone content together, but shoving group dungeons into the whole process is exclusionary and unfair.
That said, I prefer more varied content and smaller stories. I love kitties, but I am so frigging sick of dragons. Am not looking forward to next year full of whatever they're going to choke me with.
1. standard dungeons arent difficult
2. its an MMO
3. you can always just watch a youtube video for the 2min mostly non essential cut scenes
people really drive their complaining up to the powerlevel 9000 these days...
I REALLY like this year long approach - it fits the story telling approach and makes for a better, deeper and richer experience!!
THANK YOU ZOS9 -
bluebird✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Would you mind explaining why? It would be helpful to understand what exactly makes four-DLC-stories a 'better story telling approach' than self-contained stories from start to finish which don't depend on other purchases.Nemesis7884 wrote: »I REALLY like this year long approach - it fits the story telling approach and makes for a better, deeper and richer experience!!
THANK YOU ZOS
Could they not have made a Chapter that includes the story of Elsweyr and Dragonhold if it's so necessary to the plot, and told the entire story of the Khajiit in that? It would have been the same rich and deep story, but contained in a single DLC. Or could they not have had the Elsweyr storyline just end with Elsweyr? We restored peace to the province by vanquishing Euraxia, Khamira's story wraps up nicely, we removed the necromancers' threat, and we prevented the dragons from gaining the powers at the plane of Jode. Was it necessary for the story to add 'oh, but he escaped somehow, and there's more!' at the end so they can write another DLC about Khajiit and dragons?
Why don't we spend the rest of the year following Abnur back to Colovia and finding a resolution to the Empire's and the Tharns' storyline in an Imperial story DLC, or why don't we find new characters and places to explore like Skyrim or some plot with Meridia (who was hinted at in Summerset as well as the Depths of Malatar)?
If ESO had followed this year-long philosophy, we would have had a year with Orsinium and two other Orc DLCs, we would have had a year with Summerset and two more High Elf DLCs. Neither the Thieves Guild, nor the Dark Brotherhood, nor the Wolfhunter dungeons and werewolf updates, nor Murkmire would exist. Don't tell me that ESO would be a better game with those Orc, High Elf and Khajiit year-long stories told, when that would mean losing out on so much more? 24 -
Yellow_Monolith✭✭✭✭✭I prefer individual self contained stories. It gets boring and uninteresting to me personally with one big story carrying over a whole year and most of the enemies, visual looks to areas, villains, etc. being the same, to be honest.19 -
ShadowHvo✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think your arguments, while sounding solid, it actually becomes rather null when realizing that ESO has literally already done this for their storytelling.
Morrowind -> Clockwork City > Summerset all contained one continues storyline revolving around the Daedric Triad. I'm fairly confident that ZoS will design the storyline in each season much likely they did with those two chapters and one DLC.
The only change here is the inclusion of Dungeon DLC's and a fancy marketing title.Nighren - The Shadow StrikerLeader of Bloodlines-- EU --
Want to roleplay in elder scrolls online? Check out eso-rp.com5 -
ArchMikem✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭having the same theme, same story, same region, same NPCs for an entire year is far more boring.
That's called having a short attention span.CP1,900+ Master Explorer - AvA One Star General - Console Peasant - The Clan
Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!7 -
bluebird✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
I did actually include Morrowind --> CWC --> Summerset in my post and explained how that model was quite different from dedicating an entire year to Khajiit and Dragons, all set in Elsweyr.I think your arguments, while sounding solid, it actually becomes rather null when realizing that ESO has literally already done this for their storytelling.
Morrowind -> Clockwork City > Summerset all contained one continues storyline revolving around the Daedric Triad. I'm fairly confident that ZoS will design the storyline in each season much likely they did with those two chapters and one DLC.
The only change here is the inclusion of Dungeon DLC's and a fancy marketing title.
In Morrowind we had the stories of Dunmer Houses, we explored the land and vanquished Vvardenfell creatures. In CWC we visited the Clockwork City which is extremely different from anything else you might find in Nirn, we met the Clockwork Apostles and their unique culture, we fought all sorts of Clockwork creations. In Summerset we immersed ourselves in Altmer society, the High Elves' home island as well as Arteum and the Psijic Order. Sure all of these DLCs/Chapters had a Daedric boss at the end and a secret plot that connected them, but they aren't monotonous at all. The locations, the people, the styles, the architecture and the enemies you see all over the place had a very different vibe as opposed to Elsweyr/Scalebreaker/Dragonhold which is far more repetitive.
And that's the point. They already proved that they can write an overarching plot into separate DLCs that still manage to feel and look unique and standalone with totally different regions and cultures. If they wanted to add an overarching Dragon threat, they could have added Paarthunax and the Throat of the World in a Skyrim zone DLC for example, instead of another Elsweyr zone with cats. The Wrathstone dungeons also tell an overarching story, yet don't look and feel like Elsweyr.8 -
NotaDaedraWorshipper✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If we won't get any more single story DLCs like Murkmire, Orsinium, Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, I'm going to be very disappointed. I love those dlcs, and now it makes me worried I will need to wait a whole year for a chance to see some content I'm hoping for.
Year long story approach could be interesting if done well and if it has some breaks, aka non related story DLCs in it. But the way it appears now it does not seem like that. Instead it feels like it's just being annoyingly long-winded.Edited by NotaDaedraWorshipper on July 28, 2019 2:54AM[Lie] Of course! I don't even worship Daedra!16
