So, the stated objective of Cyrodiil is Faction v Faction v Faction - it's a war. It was advertised and designed for large scale battles of many players v many players. That's why ZOS made groups of 24 possible. The question posed with this thread assumes that it is somehow a desirable goal to "kill the zerg." Why would you want to do that? Its the intent of the game! If you don't like large group battles, go to battle grounds or dueling. Why is it necessary to destroy the one game that lets us have that type of play?
We were in a 90 minute 3 faction battle at chal yesterday and it was AMAZING. There isn't any other game out there where you get that! Yes the lag sucked and it sure would be nice to be able to sprint and mount and have your skills go off reliably and ZOS needs to fix those things. But please, not by totally destroying the intent of the game!
Revert to siege changes of like 8 patches ago.
Give ground oils back or replace with analogous new item.
Give V.D. type set that puts major vuln and major defile on all group members when a member dies within x meters.
Put long time cast skills (30sec) that can be bashed but do ~30k aoe damage
More siege like meatbags would just lead to longer fights and more stacking of zergs. Meat bags shouldn’t constantly defile. If you get hit by initial damage then yes apply the defile but it shouldn’t be a ground based define that also damages over time.Revert to siege changes of like 8 patches ago.
Give ground oils back or replace with analogous new item.
Give V.D. type set that puts major vuln and major defile on all group members when a member dies within x meters.
Put long time cast skills (30sec) that can be bashed but do ~30k aoe damage
If anything I notice sieging is loved by zerglings and when your in a group 3vXing near a keep, theres always one little 5 star pugling that loves to get on the meatbag or cold fire balista and fire down on his 14 man groups health bars. more siege should be like meatbags though, giving horrible Debuff AOEs rather than doing actual damage, major venrability, horrid snares, silence and stat draining siege should be added to help wipe out groups, imagine how quickly the res spam zerg tanks would change builds with siege like that around.
Revert to siege changes of like 8 patches ago.
Give ground oils back or replace with analogous new item.
Give V.D. type set that puts major vuln and major defile on all group members when a member dies within x meters.
Put long time cast skills (30sec) that can be bashed but do ~30k aoe damage
If anything I notice sieging is loved by zerglings and when your in a group 3vXing near a keep, theres always one little 5 star pugling that loves to get on the meatbag or cold fire balista and fire down on his 14 man groups health bars. more siege should be like meatbags though, giving horrible Debuff AOEs rather than doing actual damage, major venrability, horrid snares, silence and stat draining siege should be added to help wipe out groups, imagine how quickly the res spam zerg tanks would change builds with siege like that around.
Dedicated healers and tanks shouldn’t exist in PvP, if you want to spam heals or hold block or glue your block button down every other mode on the game is built for that, PvP should be DPS centric, its because of healers that people need to make harmony bombing groups to actually kill anyone.
Prune needless AoE effects (specifically ones that do low damage or healing and have no secondary effects, such as a stun. example: DK's volatile armor, Sorc's boundless storm) and/or force all AoEs to have an upper target limit of 5-10. Change "smart healing" code to be selfish first (meaning that if you cast rapids and currently don't have the buff and are below full health, you would get the HoT as priority).
Unsurprisingly I think this would also fix most lag issues.
ItsJustHashtag wrote: »Prune needless AoE effects (specifically ones that do low damage or healing and have no secondary effects, such as a stun. example: DK's volatile armor, Sorc's boundless storm) and/or force all AoEs to have an upper target limit of 5-10. Change "smart healing" code to be selfish first (meaning that if you cast rapids and currently don't have the buff and are below full health, you would get the HoT as priority).
Unsurprisingly I think this would also fix most lag issues.
Most ball groups don’t run volatile or boundless as they rely on a warden player running expansive frost cloak to give the group their armor buff or they run the mages guild skill that gives armor/magicka because they don’t have to worry about losing health to gain resources due to healing from the group.
The only way you are going to get players to spread out is by giving the players a decent debuff when around X many friendly players.
I dont know what the debuff needs to be, but it needs to be harsh. That is the ONLY way you will get zergs to spread out. (Either that or they will just die to a smaller group of enemy players not affected by the debuff((or at least not as severely))
As for ball groups? They will just work around the debuff. Ball groups are hard to kill for a reason. They are a very coordinated group of players with specific builds for their group, and play style. These are the players that took what ZOS gave them, and made the best possible scenario with them.
You also just made an argument and blew it out of the water in the same post.
How about... if you want to use the word "arbitrary," you just realize it's a bad or thoughtless idea.
And again... where is the assumption that the larger group would DEFINITELY make more mistakes coming from? From the last 2 years when they win and you lose? Yeah... limit AoE effects to 10. That way their whole group can still hit all of you but you can only hit half their group.
You people don't even know what you're taaaaalking aboooout.
"Either that or they will just die to a smaller group not affected by the debuff" <--- Aaaand this is why it's a terrible idea.
10 people should beat 5 people. Every time. If they don't, it'd better be because the 5 people were WAY better than the 10. Not because the game introduced a penalty. I mean are we trying to make things fair, fix performance, or just literally punish people for being in large groups?
"These are the players that took what ZOS gave them, and made the best possible scenario with them." <--- AKA good players.
I wish there weren't so many people that feel the only true art or talent to this game is trying to be a 1vX Youtuber. And are in total denial about their own inability to handle the odds. And complain about perfectly normal things like Purge... Stuns... or the very existence of Healers.
There's always a new patch. Or a new meta. Or a new OP ability. But the people that were amazing players before turn out to be amazing players after. Because they "took what ZOS gave them," and made the best possible scenario with it.
If you tell a grand master chess player that "hey the Knight doesn't move like an L anymore it moves in a straight line," do you think that you're going to checkmate him finally? Or do you think, as before, he will adjust to the change slightly faster than you did?
some crappy ball group runs into a good ball group and their little farming becomes threatened. What do they do? Stack more players into the ball. Doesn't matter if they are good at it, so long as they can follow the build guidelines and learn to stay on crown. Next thing you know, we are not talking about Drac and their 12 man ball group; but now we have full raids of 24 tightly stacked or at least as good as they can do because the quality of player gets more relaxed, but still; more strain on the server. Hell; I have seen some of them run 2 raids all together in a ball.
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »some crappy ball group runs into a good ball group and their little farming becomes threatened. What do they do? Stack more players into the ball. Doesn't matter if they are good at it, so long as they can follow the build guidelines and learn to stay on crown. Next thing you know, we are not talking about Drac and their 12 man ball group; but now we have full raids of 24 tightly stacked or at least as good as they can do because the quality of player gets more relaxed, but still; more strain on the server. Hell; I have seen some of them run 2 raids all together in a ball.
I agree with this and the server performance shows it. I think perhaps the reason we disagree on some topics is because of the wording used. for example I don't consider people running in these 16-24+ frontline zerg groups to be a ball group, no matter how they play or what tactics they use.
If you aren't fighting away from your faction, outnumbered and taking on enemy zerg groups you aren't playing as a ball group should play imo.
Thats not to say that I don't occasionally frontline zerg or my guild, every guild and player has at some point but whats different is what your main aim is and the fights you usually take part in.
So when you or others are saying that we need to remove ball groups to me it means that you want to encourage people to join these zerg groups who just outnumber and frontline down people because ball groups are meant to be a counter to these groups.
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »some crappy ball group runs into a good ball group and their little farming becomes threatened. What do they do? Stack more players into the ball. Doesn't matter if they are good at it, so long as they can follow the build guidelines and learn to stay on crown. Next thing you know, we are not talking about Drac and their 12 man ball group; but now we have full raids of 24 tightly stacked or at least as good as they can do because the quality of player gets more relaxed, but still; more strain on the server. Hell; I have seen some of them run 2 raids all together in a ball.
I agree with this and the server performance shows it. I think perhaps the reason we disagree on some topics is because of the wording used. for example I don't consider people running in these 16-24+ frontline zerg groups to be a ball group, no matter how they play or what tactics they use.
If you aren't fighting away from your faction, outnumbered and taking on enemy zerg groups you aren't playing as a ball group should play imo.
Thats not to say that I don't occasionally frontline zerg or my guild, every guild and player has at some point but whats different is what your main aim is and the fights you usually take part in.
So when you or others are saying that we need to remove ball groups to me it means that you want to encourage people to join these zerg groups who just outnumber and frontline down people because ball groups are meant to be a counter to these groups.
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »some crappy ball group runs into a good ball group and their little farming becomes threatened. What do they do? Stack more players into the ball. Doesn't matter if they are good at it, so long as they can follow the build guidelines and learn to stay on crown. Next thing you know, we are not talking about Drac and their 12 man ball group; but now we have full raids of 24 tightly stacked or at least as good as they can do because the quality of player gets more relaxed, but still; more strain on the server. Hell; I have seen some of them run 2 raids all together in a ball.
I agree with this and the server performance shows it. I think perhaps the reason we disagree on some topics is because of the wording used. for example I don't consider people running in these 16-24+ frontline zerg groups to be a ball group, no matter how they play or what tactics they use.
If you aren't fighting away from your faction, outnumbered and taking on enemy zerg groups you aren't playing as a ball group should play imo.
Thats not to say that I don't occasionally frontline zerg or my guild, every guild and player has at some point but whats different is what your main aim is and the fights you usually take part in.
So when you or others are saying that we need to remove ball groups to me it means that you want to encourage people to join these zerg groups who just outnumber and frontline down people because ball groups are meant to be a counter to these groups.
I don't know, I kind of feel like ball groups dictate the existence of zerg groups. It's really the only way to take on a good ball group. If ball groups went away, the zerg groups may as well. They would at least no longer be necessary and lessen the need to run in them. Again, I don't know, it's a chicken/egg kind of thing.
Or is it entirely dependent on the skill levels of the participants?
1)40 men groups are inherently disorganized
2) there is a reason why that went away, and 3) you want to bring that up while supporting a stance that something should be done about numbers advantage?