what changes would you make to kill the zerg?

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Wing wrote: »

from my perspective of watching ball groups move around and what not, tiny changes I would make that would hurt ball groups but leave most unaffected

things like:

-make rapids cheaper but single target
-make purge cheaper but single target

etc.

as ball groups tend to run dedicated skill spammers. increasing the cost of those skills hurts everyone, but just forcing people to slot and use skills themselves is something solo and small man have dealt with forever, and zergs tend to ignore, because dedicated spammers.

side note, it would be less server load (aoe spam)

what would you do?

as I side note, I feel like more/all aoe's need the scale mechanism of det.

Does casting a skill every 8 seconds count as spamming it these days?
You know when the root immunity was taken away from rapids and added to Psijic everyone controlled their own immunity in groups. It's almost as if people dealt with it fine right ?

90% of these changes would make groups more powerful and the other 10% would destroy pvp in ESO completely lol. I guess the question is what are you trying to get rid of? 6-12m, 12+? 24+?

Lets take for example your last comment: "I feel like more/all aoe's need the scale mechanism of det". This would greatly empower group gameplay vs larger pug group stacks.

ItsJustHashtag

ItsJustHashtag wrote: »

Make radiating regen stop stacking at 3 per player. Would have zero effect on pve.

Reduce the heal further on cleanse. Would have zero effect on pve as this is not really a pve skill.

Reduce the heal on reviving barrier

I would add reduce the effectiveness of harmony trait.

SneaK

The ball groups are the ones killing the Zergs. I think you’re confused.

AmoralOne

Add a debuff to players when in the area of more than 8 other players. Idk what kind of debuff, but a debuff, and make it scale the more players that are around.

Tammany

TequilaFire wrote: »

Tammany wrote: »

StamPlar_1976 wrote: »

How about don't change anything? Cyrodiil is about group PvP. If you want to solo and 1vX, go to battlegrounds. Leave my group PvP alone. I like ball grouping and zergs.

Implying cleanse and aoe spam is a group pvp ayy

Of course it is, it is called group support no different than PvE.

You dont have any other game with people running around in premades spamming few spells and call it coordinated group just because they stack abilities and abuse unbalanced game mechanic.

Eso ballgroup is a low tier premade quality, people stack aoe spells, run like headless chikens from one tower to another, half of them spamming heals and cleanse, others spamming aoe spells. Oh yeah sometimes they press ultimates together, woah TeAmPlay. This gameplay not even little bit closer to the teamplay other games provide - wow, la2, guild wars. This gameplay is not based on reaction, or insane group coordination, its just stacking and abusing game mechanichs - bs aoe healing, cleanse and synergy bonus that grants infinitie recources.

ESO ballgroup is not based on insane teamplay, because "hey lets find some players who will follow us and spam # and # and # for the next 3 hours".

I've recently seen some 5-6 nightblades at ebon pac who act as a PREMADE, ballgroup is not even closer skill wise, just a niche for some people who like that mediocore gameplay.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Why not just make vicious death twice as strong and then bring in a stamina equivalent set?

Let’s be real ... ever since VD was instituted the solution has always been to fix a problem with a set. If you choose not to wear it, that’s on you.

OBJnoob

Some of you people are severely misunderstanding the skill level of yourself. And others.

My campaign, ravenwatch no cp Xbox na, is just a beautifully populated paradise for pvp. On average? Maybe everyone has 1 bar. Minimal lag. Each alliance probably has 1 “Zerg” and 1 “large group” and a hand full of people trying to x or small scale.

The winner of the campaign probably has more people overall, scattered across better times, and perhaps are a little more talented. But mostly, in my campaign, everybody is pretty good. It isn’t a place to try and x.

The zergs are there to fight zergs. The ball groups are there to fight ball groups. The small scalers are trying to small scale. We all know what we’re capable of because there’s just the right amount of beef between alliances where we remember names and know who the good blue or red groups are. We don’t try to x the good “Zerg.”

There is no way you can balance the game properly where two players of high skill can’t kill one player. Debuffing people for standing next to each other? There have been some truly awful and misguided ideas said here.

You’re probably walking up to a “Zerg” of 12 guild mates who are, each and every one of them, hands down, better than you. And you’re trying to x them. And complaining when you get cc locked and focused.

Join a guild. Talk to people. Practice teamwork. Stop playing a avava mmorpg like you don’t know you’re supposed to BENEFIT from being social.

TequilaFire

Tammany wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Tammany wrote: »

StamPlar_1976 wrote: »

How about don't change anything? Cyrodiil is about group PvP. If you want to solo and 1vX, go to battlegrounds. Leave my group PvP alone. I like ball grouping and zergs.

Implying cleanse and aoe spam is a group pvp ayy

Of course it is, it is called group support no different than PvE.

You dont have any other game with people running around in premades spamming few spells and call it coordinated group just because they stack abilities and abuse unbalanced game mechanic.

Eso ballgroup is a low tier premade quality, people stack aoe spells, run like headless chikens from one tower to another, half of them spamming heals and cleanse, others spamming aoe spells. Oh yeah sometimes they press ultimates together, woah TeAmPlay. This gameplay not even little bit closer to the teamplay other games provide - wow, la2, guild wars. This gameplay is not based on reaction, or insane group coordination, its just stacking and abusing game mechanichs - bs aoe healing, cleanse and synergy bonus that grants infinitie recources.

ESO ballgroup is not based on insane teamplay, because "hey lets find some players who will follow us and spam # and # and # for the next 3 hours".

I've recently seen some 5-6 nightblades at ebon pac who act as a PREMADE, ballgroup is not even closer skill wise, just a niche for some people who like that mediocore gameplay.

You obviously need to learn what a ball group is and how they operate as you are confusing them with pug zergs.

Baphomet

Add a generic siege weapon that everybody can use which deploys a large area with caltrops that don't do any damage, but snares anyone moving through it by 70%-80% for 3-4 seconds.

Ball groups is a valid strategy in this game, and I think it should stay that way, but there should be more counters to it, and something like this would probably make it much harder to pull off coordinated ult-dumping.

Mayrael

Well the reason why nothing works against ball groups is because they have purge spammers. It's not about heals or damage, it's about not being able to soft cc and debuf them. You can't place defile or maim on them, you can't root or smare them, and without it negate is almost useless, you can't use cold harbours to take them down because they cleanse the dot.

Just change purge (via battle spirit only) into single target or add cooldown per target boom. Sorc can use encase, negate, streak and suddenly they all have to sweat a lot when pressured by others using defiles and snares. Stacking should bring the vulnerability to AoE effects but because of purge you can completely ignore it.


Or as I mentioned in other post. Friendly fire! Let the chaos begin!

Tammany

TequilaFire wrote: »

You obviously need to learn what a ball group is and how they operate as you are confusing them with pug zergs.

Pug zergs are not spamming cleanse 24/7

Dat

The amount of insanity in some of these suggestions is astounding lol. Ball groups are alot harder to run then alot of you think it is. When you can take 12 players and fight 60 that's alot of build comp and individual player skill it takes to be able to do that. Not to mention the fact that the strategy employed by your raid leads takes experience. If you think for one second that you can just find 12 players with purge and proxy and run around invincible, then I put to you that you have never run in a group like that and if you did...you had zero idea how it was built nor the strategy that it takes to accomplish that.

In reality what we need is ZoS to fix the performance issues that have been mention numerous times over the years that keep getting swept by the wayside in favor of new crown crate items. Stop putting out all this new content that only seems go be exacerbating the already rampant issues we have had for years and give us a performance overhaul that all of us have been asking for.
Zergs will always be there and quite honestly that's what they sold us on with this game. Doesnt anyone remember the selling points? MASSIVE 200v200v200 battles were promised when this game first came out. That's what drew the main bunch of the pvp community to this game. Its seems like most of you have forgotten that and instead have turned to "well MY build cant 1vx 12 organized people so obviously those 12 need nerfed" I dont get this way of thinking or where it even came from.

Tldr: we need a massive performance overhaul to cyro. We dont need to nerf ball groups or zergs or healing anymore then where it is. Give us what was promised 6 years ago.

gabriebe

Revert siege to how OP it was during one of the patches, when oil catapuls (I think) would linger on the ground for a good 10 seconds or so denying them complete areas. Siege is something ball groups rarely use because they can't afford to stay in one place too long, and those dead zones created by sieges really allowed underpopped factions to defend against much larger numbers.

Emma_Overload

This thread is so funny to an old timer. All you guys who are asking for AOE caps fail to realize that they used to have caps just like that, and zergs were just as bad then as they are now!

All you really need to understand is this: ZOS LOVES ZERGS. They LOVE them. ZOS is never going to get rid of zergs, because zerging is the INTENDED play style. All the "small scalers" and solo nuts (like me) are swimming upstream - ZOS is NEVER going to "fix" zerging to cater to our preferred play styles, because (from their point of view) there is nothing to fix.

technohic

Dat wrote: »

The amount of insanity in some of these suggestions is astounding lol. Ball groups are alot harder to run then alot of you think it is. When you can take 12 players and fight 60 that's alot of build comp and individual player skill it takes to be able to do that. Not to mention the fact that the strategy employed by your raid leads takes experience. If you think for one second that you can just find 12 players with purge and proxy and run around invincible, then I put to you that you have never run in a group like that and if you did...you had zero idea how it was built nor the strategy that it takes to accomplish that.

In reality what we need is ZoS to fix the performance issues that have been mention numerous times over the years that keep getting swept by the wayside in favor of new crown crate items. Stop putting out all this new content that only seems go be exacerbating the already rampant issues we have had for years and give us a performance overhaul that all of us have been asking for.
Zergs will always be there and quite honestly that's what they sold us on with this game. Doesnt anyone remember the selling points? MASSIVE 200v200v200 battles were promised when this game first came out. That's what drew the main bunch of the pvp community to this game. Its seems like most of you have forgotten that and instead have turned to "well MY build cant 1vx 12 organized people so obviously those 12 need nerfed" I dont get this way of thinking or where it even came from.

Tldr: we need a massive performance overhaul to cyro. We dont need to nerf ball groups or zergs or healing anymore then where it is. Give us what was promised 6 years ago.

The game performs better when there are no ball groups so, that might be the fix.

I'd make purge require a synergy and neuter cross healing as a start.

Dat

[/quote]

The game performs better when there are no ball groups so, that might be the fix.

I'd make purge require a synergy and neuter cross healing as a start.[/quote]

Neuter cross healing? You realize we have a 60% nerf to healing right now on live right. So since you're asking for more healing nerfs should we even have healing? If we throw even more healing nerfs into the mix the classes with horrid self healing would have even harder times. And if we keep nerfing the healing then you're basically making any healers worthless in pvp. You cant take away one playstyle for the sake of another. That isnt right.

*edited for HEAVY bait

technohic

Dat wrote: »

The game performs better when there are no ball groups so, that might be the fix.

I'd make purge require a synergy and neuter cross healing as a start.[/quote]

Neuter cross healing? You realize we have a 60% nerf to healing right now on live right. So since you're asking for more healing nerfs should we just get rid of healing all together? How about proxy? You know what, let's just get rid of weapons and armor while were at it. Obviously those are overpowered as well. We can all run around punching each other to death. NO WAIT some races have buffs to dmg so we should just get rid of hands too. No punching anymore. There you go we have a even playing field now. /s
[/quote]

60% healing change across the board should never have happened as it does not address the issue. Which is cross healing and purges from other targets being able to eliminate all damage short of having negates.

So no need to launch into a tangent. Nobody is advocating nerfing everything. Just clearly over performance if criss heals and purges.

Dat

See I don't see it as over performing. There's counter play to everything. Too much cross healing? Hard stuns and lockdowns and start whittling away at the group until they lose enough dmg and heals they cant keep up. I wouldnt expect anyone but a large overwhelming force or a similar group to kill a raid group who's coordination is in place.

ItsJustHashtag

Dat wrote: »

The game performs better when there are no ball groups so, that might be the fix.

I'd make purge require a synergy and neuter cross healing as a start.[/quote]

Neuter cross healing? You realize we have a 60% nerf to healing right now on live right. So since you're asking for more healing nerfs should we even have healing? If we throw even more healing nerfs into the mix the classes with horrid self healing would have even harder times. And if we keep nerfing the healing then you're basically making any healers worthless in pvp. You cant take away one playstyle for the sake of another. That isnt right.

*edited for HEAVY bait
[/quote]
Cross healing only effects larger groups more. Merging or limiting cross healing of radiating and echoing would be a start. Instead you have 12-16 stacking radiating and it’s too much healing. Limiting that to 2-3 stacks would not effect pve at all but would greatly help pvp.

ItsJustHashtag

Once again these 5 changes would limit ball groups:

Reduce the healing of reviving barrier

Reduce the healing of cleanse

Limit cross healing to 3 stacks of each source

Reduce the effectiveness of harmony(this trait alone has made it where the ball groups do not need ultimate to kill people.)

Reduce the amount or resources that can be recovered by harmony orbs. They should have to not be able to run all damage sets with zero sustain except synergy sustain.

technohic

Dat wrote: »

See I don't see it as over performing. There's counter play to everything. Too much cross healing? Hard stuns and lockdowns and start whittling away at the group until they lose enough dmg and heals they cant keep up. I wouldnt expect anyone but a large overwhelming force or a similar group to kill a raid group who's coordination is in place.

The only way to counter, isn't even overwhelming numbers so much, and that is part of the problem for another topic; but whittling them down has been nullified by necro rezing.

Anyway, on how we come to how this impacts performance. You start with something like Drac and you need a similar group or at least close to it with enough players to coordinate negates, aoe CC, and enough bombs to kill before the group can get out. Still fine at this point, I would agree. Coordinated group, requires a coordinated group.

But then, you see another group copy any follow suit. Maybe to counter but most are kind of cowardly and really just want to farm PUGs too. So now you have 2 groups running around, spamming cross heals and purges, or whatever you do. It doesn't matter. What matters is we are still talking about a compact area of abilities and it starts to stress the server.

Then; some crappy ball group runs into a good ball group and their little farming becomes threatened. What do they do? Stack more players into the ball. Doesn't matter if they are good at it, so long as they can follow the build guidelines and learn to stay on crown. Next thing you know, we are not talking about Drac and their 12 man ball group; but now we have full raids of 24 tightly stacked or at least as good as they can do because the quality of player gets more relaxed, but still; more strain on the server. Hell; I have seen some of them run 2 raids all together in a ball.

So this alone is making the server strain; but what is there to do with such a juggernaut? Go fight each other? Take a keep? Capture a scroll? Play the map? NOPE! Need to go set up in a home keep somewhere to draw the attention of all the PUGs. Maybe try an outpost such as Nickel, but people can kind of ignore that capture point, so a home keep is best to have plenty of LOS and an entire uncoordinated faction of PUGs chasing them around for an hour or more. If that doesn't get attention, they grab a scroll, not to capture it and play the map; but instead to again run around running over PUGs with the servers choked out. Its like trolling rather than playing toward objectives.

I mean don't act like a lot of the ball groups don't know the impact on performance. They all seem glad to take advantage of bombard and talon spam with streaks and synergies knowing full well players will not break free and roll dodge in a reasonable amount of time.

What I don't get is how you enjoy it. Is it really challenging to run over PUGs that really have no chance, as in your own words, "I wouldn't expect anyone but a large overwhelming force or a similar group to kill a raid group who's coordination is in place." Performance suffers while you just keep killing the same players over and over until someone lands just the right counter. It really reminds me of Orson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=997lGD65WNc

Dat

When I take my 12 man out we look to fight the most players as possible to give us as much of a challenge as we can and push the envelope. We also try to do this as far away from the front lines as possible. It's more of a challenge of ourselves then anything and that's what we enjoy. Alot of time well just flag a keep and then pull off to a resource to fight. When we know there are other groups on the map we seek them out to fight them because that's where we have the most fun. On DC we look for xans, homicide or IL and lately chapterhouse has been putting together groups and we have had some really fun fights with them. On the AD side we look for QB, VE, TD and Dom if they're up and running. We dont really play the map because we just want the fights and I could care less about pvdooring as that's the most boring playstyle to us. This is how we choose to play in a video game that gives us the freedom to do so. So why should groups like us be penalized for playing how we want to? I'm confused as to the point here. If the game ran the way it should be running this wouldnt be a issue and we wouldnt even be having this discussion.

Dat

ItsJustHashtag wrote: »

Once again these 5 changes would limit ball groups:

Reduce the healing of reviving barrier

Reduce the healing of cleanse

Limit cross healing to 3 stacks of each source

Reduce the effectiveness of harmony(this trait alone has made it where the ball groups do not need ultimate to kill people.)

Reduce the amount or resources that can be recovered by harmony orbs. They should have to not be able to run all damage sets with zero sustain except synergy sustain.

First off we dont rely on barrier...at all

As to your last point lol we dont run all dmg sets. Were just like all the small scale groups 1 sustain set and 1 dmg set so I think that's a common misconception

technohic

"If the game ran the way it should be running this wouldnt be a issue and we wouldnt even be having this discussion."

Well; it doesn't. Thats the point. And this way is hurting as it gets to bigger groups. And that the backbone of it is created by spamming cross heals and purges is a really easy target.

Dat

So just to be clear here. You think the solution is to not fix the game but nerf abilities instead? I'm confused by that concept

Gilvoth

Emma_Overload wrote: »

All you really need to understand is this: ZOS LOVES ZERGS. They LOVE them. ZOS is never going to get rid of zergs, because zerging is the INTENDED play style. All the "small scalers" and solo nuts (like me) are swimming upstream - ZOS is NEVER going to "fix" zerging to cater to our preferred play styles, because (from their point of view) there is nothing to fix.

that's Horrible.

katorga

It is a multiplayer, group game. Grouping is what the game is designed to do.

technohic

Dat wrote: »

So just to be clear here. You think the solution is to not fix the game but nerf abilities instead? I'm confused by that concept

Its low hanging fruit. The of course should fix the game, but that appears to be a lot more difficult and will take some time.

TequilaFire

technohic wrote: »

Dat wrote: »

The amount of insanity in some of these suggestions is astounding lol. Ball groups are alot harder to run then alot of you think it is. When you can take 12 players and fight 60 that's alot of build comp and individual player skill it takes to be able to do that. Not to mention the fact that the strategy employed by your raid leads takes experience. If you think for one second that you can just find 12 players with purge and proxy and run around invincible, then I put to you that you have never run in a group like that and if you did...you had zero idea how it was built nor the strategy that it takes to accomplish that.

In reality what we need is ZoS to fix the performance issues that have been mention numerous times over the years that keep getting swept by the wayside in favor of new crown crate items. Stop putting out all this new content that only seems go be exacerbating the already rampant issues we have had for years and give us a performance overhaul that all of us have been asking for.
Zergs will always be there and quite honestly that's what they sold us on with this game. Doesnt anyone remember the selling points? MASSIVE 200v200v200 battles were promised when this game first came out. That's what drew the main bunch of the pvp community to this game. Its seems like most of you have forgotten that and instead have turned to "well MY build cant 1vx 12 organized people so obviously those 12 need nerfed" I dont get this way of thinking or where it even came from.

Tldr: we need a massive performance overhaul to cyro. We dont need to nerf ball groups or zergs or healing anymore then where it is. Give us what was promised 6 years ago.

The game performs better when there are no ball groups so, that might be the fix.

I'd make purge require a synergy and neuter cross healing as a start.

Actually it is not the ball groups by themselves, there are always many zerg surfers following the ball group around leeching ap. Sometimes I feel the whole alliance follows our group. lol

bugmom

So, the stated objective of Cyrodiil is Faction v Faction v Faction - it's a war. It was advertised and designed for large scale battles of many players v many players. That's why ZOS made groups of 24 possible. The question posed with this thread assumes that it is somehow a desirable goal to "kill the zerg." Why would you want to do that? Its the intent of the game! If you don't like large group battles, go to battle grounds or dueling. Why is it necessary to destroy the one game that lets us have that type of play?

We were in a 90 minute 3 faction battle at chal yesterday and it was AMAZING. There isn't any other game out there where you get that! Yes the lag sucked and it sure would be nice to be able to sprint and mount and have your skills go off reliably and ZOS needs to fix those things. But please, not by totally destroying the intent of the game!