Maintenance for the week of June 1:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – June 1
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – June 1
We, veteran players
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Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Dusk_Coven wrote: »We can start to address the issue by removing Light Attack Weaving and all sorts of Animation Cancellation and play the game the way it was meant to before players found all these exploits to get a "fast paced game".
This is the "fast paced game" the exploits helped create. Good job.We veteran players are bored to buy new content where everything is 2 shotted.
Those things are officially part of ESO and animation cancelling is legit part of majority of popular PVP games and AC is part of player's skill. You are just going against official ZOS statements and against well-established industry standards. If most popular games have animation cancelling = majority loves animation cancelling, deal with it. This is not an exploit, this is necessity to make games more immersive and natural to players. Humans are actually much faster then ESO engine limitations.
Just look at Bob Munden, he manages to shot 2 targets in less then 1 second, including time taking gun out from holster:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpvCZwoj3tE
I remember even in Witcher 3 devs were forced to add "alternative" movement response mode where you can cancel those "beautiful" animations half-way through, because too many players complained about it.
witcher is not necessarily a good example, because there is no inertia or momentum taken into account - movement is not based on real physics therefore but more a cinematic way to bounce around in pleasurable but non-physical ways.
This said, I agree with you that animation cancelling is now a feature and ZOS even mentions it in a hint on loading screens - so it doesn't matter if it is based on a former bug or not - it is now an official feature.Edited by Lysette on June 11, 2020 11:53AM0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Dusk_Coven wrote: »We can start to address the issue by removing Light Attack Weaving and all sorts of Animation Cancellation and play the game the way it was meant to before players found all these exploits to get a "fast paced game".
This is the "fast paced game" the exploits helped create. Good job.We veteran players are bored to buy new content where everything is 2 shotted.
Those things are officially part of ESO and animation cancelling is legit part of majority of popular PVP games and AC is part of player's skill. You are just going against official ZOS statements and against well-established industry standards. If most popular games have animation cancelling = majority loves animation cancelling, deal with it. This is not an exploit, this is necessity to make games more immersive and natural to players. Humans are actually much faster then ESO engine limitations.
Just look at Bob Munden, he manages to shot 2 targets in less then 1 second, including time taking gun out from holster:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpvCZwoj3tE
I remember even in Witcher 3 devs were forced to add "alternative" movement response mode where you can cancel those "beautiful" animations half-way through, because too many players complained about it.
witcher is not necessarily a good example, because there is no inertia or momentum taken into account - movement is not based on real physics therefore but more a cinematic way to bounce around in pleasurable but non-physical ways.
This said, I agree with you that animation cancelling is now a feature and ZOS even mentions it in a hint on loading screens - so it doesn't matter if it is based on a former bug or not - it is now an official feature.
I think that we as players may complain that devs can't implement smooth transaction from one animation to another as well as dynamic animation speed, but not the fact that animation cancelling exist - simply because all our life we cancel our animations non-stop. Both from physics and from physiology, 1 second is huge amount of time and way more then 2 actions (like in ESO) can be performed in that time frame.0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Dusk_Coven wrote: »We can start to address the issue by removing Light Attack Weaving and all sorts of Animation Cancellation and play the game the way it was meant to before players found all these exploits to get a "fast paced game".
This is the "fast paced game" the exploits helped create. Good job.We veteran players are bored to buy new content where everything is 2 shotted.
Those things are officially part of ESO and animation cancelling is legit part of majority of popular PVP games and AC is part of player's skill. You are just going against official ZOS statements and against well-established industry standards. If most popular games have animation cancelling = majority loves animation cancelling, deal with it. This is not an exploit, this is necessity to make games more immersive and natural to players. Humans are actually much faster then ESO engine limitations.
Just look at Bob Munden, he manages to shot 2 targets in less then 1 second, including time taking gun out from holster:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpvCZwoj3tE
I remember even in Witcher 3 devs were forced to add "alternative" movement response mode where you can cancel those "beautiful" animations half-way through, because too many players complained about it.
witcher is not necessarily a good example, because there is no inertia or momentum taken into account - movement is not based on real physics therefore but more a cinematic way to bounce around in pleasurable but non-physical ways.
This said, I agree with you that animation cancelling is now a feature and ZOS even mentions it in a hint on loading screens - so it doesn't matter if it is based on a former bug or not - it is now an official feature.
I think that we as players may complain that devs can't implement smooth transaction from one animation to another as well as dynamic animation speed, but not the fact that animation cancelling exist - simply because all our life we cancel our animations non-stop. Both from physics and from physiology, 1 second is huge amount of time and way more then 2 actions (like in ESO) can be performed in that time frame.
I personally don't like animation cancelling but I have accepted it as feature and am using it occasionally -but not as a standard, just when I think I would need a bit more punch than normal. Most overland content can be done without it though.
My high ping is another reason not to use it on a regular basis - because what I see and what I get is more likely to get totally out of sync, but this is my personal problem and doesn't has to be addressed.Edited by Lysette on June 11, 2020 12:30PM2 -
adriant1978✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »We can start to address the issue by removing Light Attack Weaving and all sorts of Animation Cancellation and play the game the way it was meant to before players found all these exploits to get a "fast paced game".
They tried that and apparently the results were less than positive as it was immediately reverted.
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Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭adriant1978 wrote: »Dusk_Coven wrote: »We can start to address the issue by removing Light Attack Weaving and all sorts of Animation Cancellation and play the game the way it was meant to before players found all these exploits to get a "fast paced game".
They tried that and apparently the results were less than positive as it was immediately reverted.
I just wonder why they kept blocking changes though - for me with high ping it is like that now.
something is happening on the server - 450ms later that arrives at my client - 250ms for me to get aware of it and press block. 450ms later the server registers my blocking but I don't see me blocking yet. Just another 450ms and 200ms later for getting aware of what happened, I see me blocking -- so this took me a total of 1.8 seconds after the fact that I see the block going up - it is a terrible design for this action.1 -
Sergykid✭✭✭✭✭
✭why such a fuss about animation canceling? it's only VISUAL. You gain absolutely no benefit in combat. Spells fire on the global cooldown same as light attacks. In one second you can use these two global cooldowns: abilities and light attacks. Animation canceling is just a visual consequence of overlapping the second global cooldown with the first.-PC EU- / battlegrounds on my youtube0 -
Ghanima_Atreides✭✭✭✭✭
✭why such a fuss about animation canceling? it's only VISUAL. You gain absolutely no benefit in combat. Spells fire on the global cooldown same as light attacks. In one second you can use these two global cooldowns: abilities and light attacks. Animation canceling is just a visual consequence of overlapping the second global cooldown with the first.
That is true, but the game encourages you to animation cancel as much as possible and get a light attack in between each skill, significantly adding to your DPS. If you can't do that (like I can't, not reliably anyway) then your DPS will never hit the kind of numbers people claim you need to get to clear certain types of content.[The Beauty of Tamriel] My collection of ESO screenshots
Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock.1 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Dusk_Coven wrote: »We can start to address the issue by removing Light Attack Weaving and all sorts of Animation Cancellation and play the game the way it was meant to before players found all these exploits to get a "fast paced game".
This is the "fast paced game" the exploits helped create. Good job.We veteran players are bored to buy new content where everything is 2 shotted.
Those things are officially part of ESO and animation cancelling is legit part of majority of popular PVP games and AC is part of player's skill. You are just going against official ZOS statements and against well-established industry standards. If most popular games have animation cancelling = majority loves animation cancelling, deal with it. This is not an exploit, this is necessity to make games more immersive and natural to players. Humans are actually much faster then ESO engine limitations.
Just look at Bob Munden, he manages to shot 2 targets in less then 1 second, including time taking gun out from holster:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpvCZwoj3tE
I remember even in Witcher 3 devs were forced to add "alternative" movement response mode where you can cancel those "beautiful" animations half-way through, because too many players complained about it.
witcher is not necessarily a good example, because there is no inertia or momentum taken into account - movement is not based on real physics therefore but more a cinematic way to bounce around in pleasurable but non-physical ways.
This said, I agree with you that animation cancelling is now a feature and ZOS even mentions it in a hint on loading screens - so it doesn't matter if it is based on a former bug or not - it is now an official feature.
I think that we as players may complain that devs can't implement smooth transaction from one animation to another as well as dynamic animation speed, but not the fact that animation cancelling exist - simply because all our life we cancel our animations non-stop. Both from physics and from physiology, 1 second is huge amount of time and way more then 2 actions (like in ESO) can be performed in that time frame.
I personally don't like animation cancelling but I have accepted it as feature and am using it occasionally -but not as a standard, just when I think I would need a bit more punch than normal. Most overland content can be done without it though.
My high ping is another reason not to use it on a regular basis - because what I see and what I get is more likely to get totally out of sync, but this is my personal problem and doesn't has to be addressed.
I think you are using AC a lot without even noticing it. Try to fill you bar will all cast time abilities, and you'll see what is game without AC. It will be terrible experience. It is not related to necessity to cancel to complete some content. It is simply too slow for an action game to have only movement + 1 action per second. Don't get me wrong I love turn-based games... but difference is that you need to think in them before doing something. In game like ESO you don't need and don't have time to think, everything is on reflexes, and 1 action by reflexes is just unbearably slow, so ESO was praised for it's "fast paced combat" because you can effectively weave, use ability and then cancel it with block, roll-dodge or bar swap all of that in 1 second without waiting which makes game dynamic.0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »why such a fuss about animation canceling? it's only VISUAL. You gain absolutely no benefit in combat. Spells fire on the global cooldown same as light attacks. In one second you can use these two global cooldowns: abilities and light attacks. Animation canceling is just a visual consequence of overlapping the second global cooldown with the first.
That is true, but the game encourages you to animation cancel as much as possible and get a light attack in between each skill, significantly adding to your DPS. If you can't do that (like I can't, not reliably anyway) then your DPS will never hit the kind of numbers people claim you need to get to clear certain types of content.
There is another fact to it as well - if you don't do a light attack between your abilities, but just do abilities in a row, you don't gain ultimate and so it will take you longer before you can use an ultimate ability than with light attack weaving. So this is a double disadvantage not doing it in regards to dps.1 -
adriant1978✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »In game like ESO you don't need and don't have time to think, everything is on reflexes, and 1 action by reflexes is just unbearably slow, so ESO was praised for it's "fast paced combat" because you can effectively weave, use ability and then cancel it with block, roll-dodge or bar swap all of that in 1 second without waiting which makes game dynamic.
And this right here is why my DPS in this game will never be anything above trash tier, despite me being a "veteran player" who has been around since open beta.
Edited by adriant1978 on June 11, 2020 1:13PM4 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Dusk_Coven wrote: »We can start to address the issue by removing Light Attack Weaving and all sorts of Animation Cancellation and play the game the way it was meant to before players found all these exploits to get a "fast paced game".
This is the "fast paced game" the exploits helped create. Good job.We veteran players are bored to buy new content where everything is 2 shotted.
Those things are officially part of ESO and animation cancelling is legit part of majority of popular PVP games and AC is part of player's skill. You are just going against official ZOS statements and against well-established industry standards. If most popular games have animation cancelling = majority loves animation cancelling, deal with it. This is not an exploit, this is necessity to make games more immersive and natural to players. Humans are actually much faster then ESO engine limitations.
Just look at Bob Munden, he manages to shot 2 targets in less then 1 second, including time taking gun out from holster:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpvCZwoj3tE
I remember even in Witcher 3 devs were forced to add "alternative" movement response mode where you can cancel those "beautiful" animations half-way through, because too many players complained about it.
witcher is not necessarily a good example, because there is no inertia or momentum taken into account - movement is not based on real physics therefore but more a cinematic way to bounce around in pleasurable but non-physical ways.
This said, I agree with you that animation cancelling is now a feature and ZOS even mentions it in a hint on loading screens - so it doesn't matter if it is based on a former bug or not - it is now an official feature.
I think that we as players may complain that devs can't implement smooth transaction from one animation to another as well as dynamic animation speed, but not the fact that animation cancelling exist - simply because all our life we cancel our animations non-stop. Both from physics and from physiology, 1 second is huge amount of time and way more then 2 actions (like in ESO) can be performed in that time frame.
I personally don't like animation cancelling but I have accepted it as feature and am using it occasionally -but not as a standard, just when I think I would need a bit more punch than normal. Most overland content can be done without it though.
My high ping is another reason not to use it on a regular basis - because what I see and what I get is more likely to get totally out of sync, but this is my personal problem and doesn't has to be addressed.
I think you are using AC a lot without even noticing it. Try to fill you bar will all cast time abilities, and you'll see what is game without AC. It will be terrible experience. It is not related to necessity to cancel to complete some content. It is simply too slow for an action game to have only movement + 1 action per second. Don't get me wrong I love turn-based games... but difference is that you need to think in them before doing something. In game like ESO you don't need and don't have time to think, everything is on reflexes, and 1 action by reflexes is just unbearably slow, so ESO was praised for it's "fast paced combat" because you can effectively weave, use ability and then cancel it with block, roll-dodge or bar swap all of that in 1 second without waiting which makes game dynamic.
I understand that and when I still had a much lower ping I was using that - but I moved to the other side of the globe and now the server is far away and if I would still be doing it on a regular basis then what I see and what is really happening gets too much out of sync and it would be just confusing - so I settled for just occasionally doing it.Edited by Lysette on June 11, 2020 1:07PM0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭adriant1978 wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »In game like ESO you don't need and don't have time to think, everything is on reflexes, and 1 action by reflexes is just unbearably slow, so ESO was praised for it's "fast paced combat" because you can effectively weave, use ability and then cancel it with block, roll-dodge or bar swap all of that in 1 second without waiting which makes game dynamic.
And this right here is why my DPS in this game will never be anything above trash tier, despite me being a "veteran player" who has been around since open beta.
I agree that it's somewhat strange that pressing one same button each second with right timing is increasing dps on 20-30%, but... the moment when I discovered I can do that was a moment where I stopped yawning playing this game. I have no idea how it works, but it just adds some rhythm or something like that to combat.
It's like bubbles on packing wrap... pressing them is stupid beyond comprehension, but is still an irresistible fun. Same with weaving/cancelling. I have no idea why anybody don't want to do them with exception of situation when ping is awful and so those things just stop working consistently.
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Ghanima_Atreides✭✭✭✭✭
✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »I have no idea why anybody don't want to do them with exception of situation when ping is awful and so those things just stop working consistently.
The reason is simple. Some of us just don't have the reflexes to get these combos fired off in 1 second. Believe me, I have tried (I have been playing for 6 years after all), but eventually had to accept my limitations, and the fact that no matter how much I practised, my fingers just won't move quickly enough, or accurately enough on my keyboard in order to make it happen.
And to be perfectly honest, this level of twitchy gameplay is not something I enjoy either.[The Beauty of Tamriel] My collection of ESO screenshots
Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock.5 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »I have no idea why anybody don't want to do them with exception of situation when ping is awful and so those things just stop working consistently.
The reason is simple. Some of us just don't have the reflexes to get these combos fired off in 1 second. Believe me, I have tried (I have been playing for 6 years after all), but eventually had to accept my limitations, and the fact that no matter how much I practised, my fingers just won't move quickly enough, or accurately enough on my keyboard in order to make it happen.
And to be perfectly honest, this level of twitchy gameplay is not something I enjoy either.
All too true.... though I also have the mega-ping problem.Edited by Sylvermynx on June 11, 2020 1:35PM0 -
MEBengalsFan2001✭✭✭✭✭CP system is good but can't really be applied to a mmo because it has a limit. And by definition, a mmo is supposed to have no time-limit/xp limit/etc
In other mmos, there's still the concept of increasing the lvl by XP and by exemple, in BDO, xp needed between lvl60 and 61 is really incredible, even for a korean game based on farming, I remember when I played it than there was some rare players with lvl62 and maybe lvl63 1 year ago. It's like saying in ESO we have rare people with cp 2000+, same xp needed maybe.
Gear limited to cp160 is maybe something Zenimax is looking for. Maybe a new system with gear/lvl will be found.
Actually, getting more XP when you're already at cp810 limit is useless but maybe one day, our XP will be usefull for something ? I mean, if i'm cp1300 actually, it's not like someone cp810 if we convert our XP.
But changing it without changing gear system looks useless since gear is scaled on our level.
in BDO there's also a nice system with gear duration, you can lose a piece of stuff by many ways. It's interesting to force players to make a choice, risking or farming tools to maximise their chances. Pure MMO strategy at this point.
It's a hard work but, even if we can make suggestions, it's not our job.
I would state for every 100 CP above 810 you get another champion to actually spend. Yeah it isn't a lot more extra but it would help those players who have grind thousands of CP to be a bit better than those who simply did the 810 grind.0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »I have no idea why anybody don't want to do them with exception of situation when ping is awful and so those things just stop working consistently.
The reason is simple. Some of us just don't have the reflexes to get these combos fired off in 1 second. Believe me, I have tried (I have been playing for 6 years after all), but eventually had to accept my limitations, and the fact that no matter how much I practised, my fingers just won't move quickly enough, or accurately enough on my keyboard in order to make it happen.
And to be perfectly honest, this level of twitchy gameplay is not something I enjoy either.
You know this is complicated question. Games appeared in human history as a way of peaceful competition between players with/without RNG and later with/versus AI.. should all games be stripped of all mechanics that provide that competition? Also there are ton of games out there, where... vast majority of players are openly labeled as "scrubs" by specific color or badge near nickname.. you don't need any add-ons or 3PP sites, it is just plainly directly shown in game interface and full details are available in one click... and those games have millions of players and somehow nobody is appalled by that label and nobody is thinking that everybody should be top player.
Game experience and knowledge of smart moves can only move player to slightly above the average, but really good players are all about aim, APM, reflexes and crazy amount of time spent training all those... I am not saying that good weaving/AC makes somebody better as a person, but they are tools that provide room for skill and training as well as make combat more dynamic, and so what's bad in them?0 -
adriant1978✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Game experience and knowledge of smart moves can only move player to slightly above the average, but really good players are all about aim, APM, reflexes and crazy amount of time spent training all those... I am not saying that good weaving/AC makes somebody better as a person, but they are tools that provide room for skill and training as well as make combat more dynamic, and so what's bad in them?
I don't know the answer to this, but ZOS are obviously aware that there's an issue.Players with high Actions Per Minute (APM) significantly outperform those with low APM, as they have better up-time of abilities, higher mitigation, much higher DPS, and can simply move around the battlefield better in both PVE and PVP. While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options.0 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭adriant1978 wrote: »Dusk_Coven wrote: »We can start to address the issue by removing Light Attack Weaving and all sorts of Animation Cancellation and play the game the way it was meant to before players found all these exploits to get a "fast paced game".
They tried that and apparently the results were less than positive as it was immediately reverted.
That had nothing to do with removing LA though. Reducing damage? Yes, but if you didn't LA weave say Good Bye to your rotation cause your OOM and can't cast anything. If anything it required more LA weaving from ALL roles than before lol.
If they removed LA weaving nearly every "On light attack set" would need entire rebalancing. Its too much work.0 -
Sergykid✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »why such a fuss about animation canceling? it's only VISUAL. You gain absolutely no benefit in combat. Spells fire on the global cooldown same as light attacks. In one second you can use these two global cooldowns: abilities and light attacks. Animation canceling is just a visual consequence of overlapping the second global cooldown with the first.
That is true, but the game encourages you to animation cancel as much as possible and get a light attack in between each skill, significantly adding to your DPS. If you can't do that (like I can't, not reliably anyway) then your DPS will never hit the kind of numbers people claim you need to get to clear certain types of content.
but why do we call weaving animation canceling? it's not animation canceling, it's weaving. AC is just a consequence to weaving. People call it AC like it's an exploit or something, while it's actually nothing important.-PC EU- / battlegrounds on my youtube0 -
adriant1978✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭adriant1978 wrote: »Dusk_Coven wrote: »We can start to address the issue by removing Light Attack Weaving and all sorts of Animation Cancellation and play the game the way it was meant to before players found all these exploits to get a "fast paced game".
They tried that and apparently the results were less than positive as it was immediately reverted.
That had nothing to do with removing LA though. Reducing damage? Yes, but if you didn't LA weave say Good Bye to your rotation cause your OOM and can't cast anything. If anything it required more LA weaving from ALL roles than before lol.
If they removed LA weaving nearly every "On light attack set" would need entire rebalancing. Its too much work.
I don't pretend to understand all the details - there's a reason I'm not a game designer - but they did state in that thread that they were concerned about the performance gap between high and low APM players, were exploring ways to facilitate lower APM play styles, and that there was an over reliance on light attack weaving. Edited by adriant1978 on June 11, 2020 2:27PM0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭adriant1978 wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Game experience and knowledge of smart moves can only move player to slightly above the average, but really good players are all about aim, APM, reflexes and crazy amount of time spent training all those... I am not saying that good weaving/AC makes somebody better as a person, but they are tools that provide room for skill and training as well as make combat more dynamic, and so what's bad in them?
I don't know the answer to this, but ZOS are obviously aware that there's an issue.Players with high Actions Per Minute (APM) significantly outperform those with low APM, as they have better up-time of abilities, higher mitigation, much higher DPS, and can simply move around the battlefield better in both PVE and PVP. While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options.
While this is true I really doubt that a lot of players are worried about it at all - if one cannot press buttons quickly enough there is the opportunity to buy a gaming mouse and program it so that this is no longer a big issue - and a lot are using gaming mice and other devices to make this possible and automate it in some way. I just don't think that it is worth the hassle to find a solution to this APM gap - I'm not worried about it at all, my goal is to enjoy the game and not stress me out - and I guess a whole lot of people with low APM are just the same -they play for relaxation and recreation.0 -
Blackwolfe5✭✭✭Getting rid of light attack weaving (or animation cancelling or whatever you wanna call it) would make the combat feel a lot more stiff. Getting rid of it and you might as well add tab targeting as well.0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭adriant1978 wrote: »adriant1978 wrote: »Dusk_Coven wrote: »We can start to address the issue by removing Light Attack Weaving and all sorts of Animation Cancellation and play the game the way it was meant to before players found all these exploits to get a "fast paced game".
They tried that and apparently the results were less than positive as it was immediately reverted.
That had nothing to do with removing LA though. Reducing damage? Yes, but if you didn't LA weave say Good Bye to your rotation cause your OOM and can't cast anything. If anything it required more LA weaving from ALL roles than before lol.
If they removed LA weaving nearly every "On light attack set" would need entire rebalancing. Its too much work.
I don't pretend to understand all the details - there's a reason I'm not a game designer - but they did state in that thread that they were concerned about the performance gap between high and low APM players, were exploring ways to facilitate lower APM play styles, and that there was an over reliance on light attack weaving.
if they want to solve this they would just have to let abilities gain ultimate as well - but as long as abilities don't provide ultimate people will light attack weave to regain ultimate.0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭adriant1978 wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Game experience and knowledge of smart moves can only move player to slightly above the average, but really good players are all about aim, APM, reflexes and crazy amount of time spent training all those... I am not saying that good weaving/AC makes somebody better as a person, but they are tools that provide room for skill and training as well as make combat more dynamic, and so what's bad in them?
I don't know the answer to this, but ZOS are obviously aware that there's an issue.Players with high Actions Per Minute (APM) significantly outperform those with low APM, as they have better up-time of abilities, higher mitigation, much higher DPS, and can simply move around the battlefield better in both PVE and PVP. While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options.
ZOS just goes against the wind. All most popular and profitable multiplayer games in the world have HUGE skill gap between low and high aim&APM players and nobody cares, pros are streaming how they kill others, others just play and whine on teammates/cheaters/campers/balance and nobody asks to slow down the game or remove aim/limit APM.
There is nothing wrong about skill gap, this is just a game, way to relax and have fun. I have no idea why so many players in ESO care about fact that they are no best. 90% of players in the world sit in bronze/silver leagues and nobody cares, but in ESO game should be dumbed down because not everybody can parse as Liko... maybe problem is in lack of visual player statistics. In all other games everybody knows that they are as mediocre as 90% others and so feel comfortable, while in ESO all information is hidden "to reduce toxicity" or simply because ZOS was lazy, and so everybody compares themselves with top players, and "asks to reduce the gap".0 -
Ghanima_Atreides✭✭✭✭✭
✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »I have no idea why anybody don't want to do them with exception of situation when ping is awful and so those things just stop working consistently.
The reason is simple. Some of us just don't have the reflexes to get these combos fired off in 1 second. Believe me, I have tried (I have been playing for 6 years after all), but eventually had to accept my limitations, and the fact that no matter how much I practised, my fingers just won't move quickly enough, or accurately enough on my keyboard in order to make it happen.
And to be perfectly honest, this level of twitchy gameplay is not something I enjoy either.
You know this is complicated question. Games appeared in human history as a way of peaceful competition between players with/without RNG and later with/versus AI.. should all games be stripped of all mechanics that provide that competition? Also there are ton of games out there, where... vast majority of players are openly labeled as "scrubs" by specific color or badge near nickname.. you don't need any add-ons or 3PP sites, it is just plainly directly shown in game interface and full details are available in one click... and those games have millions of players and somehow nobody is appalled by that label and nobody is thinking that everybody should be top player.
Game experience and knowledge of smart moves can only move player to slightly above the average, but really good players are all about aim, APM, reflexes and crazy amount of time spent training all those... I am not saying that good weaving/AC makes somebody better as a person, but they are tools that provide room for skill and training as well as make combat more dynamic, and so what's bad in them?
I'm not saying that aiming to become a better player and enjoying dynamic play is bad, or that people who do it are wrong. I'm just saying not everyone can do it, since you asked why someone would choose NOT to weave. It's not a choice (for me and others like me), it's a limitation.
The problem is that in ESO it's become pretty much obligatory if you want to do any group content above normal non-dlc dungeons (there may be exceptions to this, for the aforementioned reasons I haven't done much group content). If you can't weave, your DPS is trash and any self respecting group will kick you out, tell you to L2P, git gud etc.
What if that's as good as you're ever going to get? Perhaps the issue is not that weaving is possible, but that it's become essential for most group content.[The Beauty of Tamriel] My collection of ESO screenshots
Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock.3 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hm,, has someone asked for it at all - to me this seems to be just an idea of ZOS, that there is a problem at all - while most are most likely not caring at all about this gap.1 -
adriant1978✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Hm,, has someone asked for it at all - to me this seems to be just an idea of ZOS, that there is a problem at all - while most are most likely not caring at all about this gap.
ZOS must have metrics (APM vs hours played? APM vs number of dungeons completed? APM vs likelihood to buy ESO Plus?) which tell them there is a problem or I doubt they'd spend developer time (i.e. money) on trying to solve it.Edited by adriant1978 on June 11, 2020 2:58PM1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭adriant1978 wrote: »Hm,, has someone asked for it at all - to me this seems to be just an idea of ZOS, that there is a problem at all - while most are most likely not caring at all about this gap.
ZOS must have metrics (APM vs hours played? APM vs number of dungeons completed? APM vs likelihood to buy ESO Plus?) which tell them there is a problem or I doubt they'd spend developer time (i.e. money) on trying to solve it.
yeah but the interpretation of those metrics might be wrong - a casual player will certainly play less hours and complete less dungeons and that is not because of APM but less play time in general. And does someone playing competitive really have a need to buy ESO+, whereas it is beneficial for those with less play time and not wanting to spend 80% of it on inventory management - they might have the metrics but do they draw the right conclusions from it?Edited by Lysette on June 11, 2020 3:28PM1 -
Mumbles_the_Tank✭✭✭adriant1978 wrote: »ZOS must have metrics (APM vs hours played? APM vs number of dungeons completed? APM vs likelihood to buy ESO Plus?) which tell them there is a problem or I doubt they'd spend developer time (i.e. money) on trying to solve it.
Funny way to deal with an alleged problem when your test proposal was very likely to accomplish the exact opposite.
We can all quietly disregard the overtuned Vamp spammable and the hilariously busted Thrassian as well. Both of which were clearly waiting in the wings during said test cycle, eager to kick that skill gap ceiling right into orbit!
Considering the above, I’m not sure even ZOS knows the what or why of how they spend our money.2 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »I have no idea why anybody don't want to do them with exception of situation when ping is awful and so those things just stop working consistently.
The reason is simple. Some of us just don't have the reflexes to get these combos fired off in 1 second. Believe me, I have tried (I have been playing for 6 years after all), but eventually had to accept my limitations, and the fact that no matter how much I practised, my fingers just won't move quickly enough, or accurately enough on my keyboard in order to make it happen.
And to be perfectly honest, this level of twitchy gameplay is not something I enjoy either.
You know this is complicated question. Games appeared in human history as a way of peaceful competition between players with/without RNG and later with/versus AI.. should all games be stripped of all mechanics that provide that competition? Also there are ton of games out there, where... vast majority of players are openly labeled as "scrubs" by specific color or badge near nickname.. you don't need any add-ons or 3PP sites, it is just plainly directly shown in game interface and full details are available in one click... and those games have millions of players and somehow nobody is appalled by that label and nobody is thinking that everybody should be top player.
Game experience and knowledge of smart moves can only move player to slightly above the average, but really good players are all about aim, APM, reflexes and crazy amount of time spent training all those... I am not saying that good weaving/AC makes somebody better as a person, but they are tools that provide room for skill and training as well as make combat more dynamic, and so what's bad in them?
I'm not saying that aiming to become a better player and enjoying dynamic play is bad, or that people who do it are wrong. I'm just saying not everyone can do it, since you asked why someone would choose NOT to weave. It's not a choice (for me and others like me), it's a limitation.
The problem is that in ESO it's become pretty much obligatory if you want to do any group content above normal non-dlc dungeons (there may be exceptions to this, for the aforementioned reasons I haven't done much group content). If you can't weave, your DPS is trash and any self respecting group will kick you out, tell you to L2P, git gud etc.
What if that's as good as you're ever going to get? Perhaps the issue is not that weaving is possible, but that it's become essential for most group content.
But what limitation? It is just a timed mouse click. Yes, it can be exhaustive when you need to mash it for long time, but any "competitive" content is exhaustive. Things like Starcraft or Overwatch are way more mechanically demanding. I remember I was able to play SC for several hours when I was a student, but when I tried SC2 ladder after work when I was already 30, I was just smashed even in lower leagues. So Starcraft must become turn-based? Just because I became older and can't play it like I did before when I could go for it with fresh head and agile fingers?1