We, veteran players

Xarc

We, veteran players, are this category of players who do not cry on forum everyday or for no reason, we did it so many times than now, we stopped.
But we continue to play, and to pay.
We're the part of the community testing builds and reporting bugs with detailed videos/threads on forum, we're helping ZOS and new players, we're leading the best guilds and we're leading scores ; we're making tutorials and we're youtubers. We 're going to the PTS and we do reports to help the game. We're making this community alive, and we're helping developers.

But Zenimax is ignoring us, insulting us.

Being an old player doesnt pay anymore since years. Even CP stopped to be increased.
We're asking things since years, and nothing is happening. So many of us were tired and decided to quit.

We, veteran players, have endured so many bugs and game problems. But we're still here.

Zenimax decided to promote new players, to increase the amount of player base. It's commercial and understandable.
having XP/AP is so easy right now, with xp scrolls, XP cakes from events, illumination, daily random dungeons, etc. It's easy to become cp810 after some months. But being cp810 doesnt make you an old player.

All is done to help new players. It's ok to help them.
All is done to promote them, and all is done to make them reach the high level as soon as possible. It's a decoy. And this is not OK.
The guy who reached lvlmax is still a new player because of you. He feels bad, he feels frustrated to die fast in some situations. He feels frustrated to lose and he doesnt understand, because he's lvl max - without experience.
And then this player is leaving the game saying on the internet that eso is bad.
This new player has less tolerance than the veteran player, since he feels easy to xp and get hard achievement, because you decided to nerf it (or make it easier with new stuff more and more powerfull). this same content than, we veteran players, had hard time to achieve it with another basic stuff.

And this new player lvlmax will play with veteran players. but he's noob and will be a bad tank, bad healer, etc. And he wont accept to be criticized because, he 's lvl max you know.
The game is not going well like that....

Theses players wont stay in this game. They're this new generation of players who need everything fast. And once they get it, they'll leave.
We, veteran players, are still here, and we'll stay... (or not)
And actually, you're not making new veteran players.

Please Matt firor, Rich Lambert, and all ZOS, consider your veteran players base. Do not forget we're the core of the community.

-
sorry for my english.

VaranisArano

So when they're considering their veteran player base...what do you actually want the Devs to do?

Pat us on the back for walking two miles in the snow uphill both ways?
Upgrade our VMA weapons?
Quit nerfing content to improve completion rates?
Give us shinies for being veterans?

We veteran players aren't exactly a monolith. So specifics are good.

Starlock

So... my take home from this is that no console players are "veteran players" because none of us can use this PTS that supposedly the "we veteran players" use. Thanks, bud.

In seriousness, though, there's no "we" veteran players. At least not in the sense written about by the OP. Regardless of how long a customer has been playing, they do so for different reasons, with different goals, with different interests, and differing level of engagement.

Honestly, I'm very skeptical Zenimax approaches their content design based on overly-simplistic categories like "new player" and "veteran player." They probably look a lot more at specific content types and how players engage with those content types at various stages then compare that to their design goals for that type of content. For example, what are the ways a player can engage with the housing system when first getting into it? How does their interaction with that system change as they use it more, and does that progression reflect the intended goals of this system?

Xarc

it's not hard.

1) helping new players is ok. But stop making this game easy for idiots 1clic spammers, like the whole "light attack meta".
2) make more new hard content, vma is old now.
3) listen to veteran players.
4) recognize and reward loyalty

Firstmep

Player retention is not their main focus.
Their business strategy is built around quarterly content releases that people pay for and play for a few weeks at best.
And its a pretty successful one too.
Search for Chris Wilson GDC talk on YouTube, he is the game director for path of exile which follows the sameish model as eso, he explains in details why new content release trumps everything, and why fixes and performance are secondary to that.

VaranisArano

Xarcus wrote: »

it's not hard.

1) helping new players is ok. But stop making this game easy for idiots 1clic spammers, like the whole "light attack meta".
2) make more new hard content, vma is old now.
3) listen to veteran players.
4) recognize and reward loyalty

Thanks for providing specifics. #1, 2, and 4 are probably the most actionable, as outside of programs like the Class Reps, "veteran players" disagree with each other all the time.

Xarc

VaranisArano wrote: »

"veteran players" disagree with each other all the time.

Yes, but it is the point.
We 're debating, and everytbody is giving arguments. That's precisely the interest, and even if there's sometimes a point of disagreement, there's always an main idea with an identified main problem.
It would be nice if - more often - zos take it into consideration

dennissomb16_ESO

I think ZOS does a decent amount for the verteran/existing player base. Like all MMOS that have been out for a number of years they make the base game play easier and leveling faster. This is not just for new players as suggested so they can get into the game and catch up it is also for the veteran players so they can level alts quickly and get them into end game activities

ZOS puts out new content quarterly which is pretty much directed at the existing player base as it is more important to them then new players. They constantly add new sets so veteran players have new things to try/work towards. They revamp the game play constantly to reflect the changes that new content brings and fix poorly designed aspects of game play.

They have added new class's, new crafting such as JC, new skill lines etc. all of which is for existing players vs new players.

The one thing they cannot do is make all existing players happy all the time. Just pick any topic and look at the varying views that the player base responds with.

I think they have done a decent job for the existing player base. Of course they can always do more. Performance issues have plagued the game since release. As far as ignoring veteran players for new players, that I disagree with.

Agenericname

Xarcus wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"veteran players" disagree with each other all the time.

Yes, but it is the point.
We 're debating, and everytbody is giving arguments. That's precisely the interest, and even if there's sometimes a point of disagreement, there's always an main idea with an identified main problem.
It would be nice if - more often - zos take it into consideration

I think that they do take it into consideration, like with the Sorc's damage shield nerf (where it had a cast time on the PTS and was removed before live) or the off-cycle PTS just recently. They admitted on one of the streams that looked the "back and forth" that they found on social media/forums. What seems to be lacking is communication. They don't do that all that well IMO. They do it, just not well. The issue is, that we don't communicate all that well either at times. Sometimes we do sometimes people make valid and clear points and counter points, other times not so much. So what are we communicating to them?

As to the OP, if someone won't take valid and constructive criticism, that's their hubris and unwillingness to learn/adapt and beyond the control of ZOS. ZOS doesn't create those players, we do that ourselves and its entirely free will. It could be that don't care for playing that way or maybe they feel that because they're max level they have nothing more to learn, it's their choice either way though.

Starlock

Xarcus wrote: »

it's not hard.

1) helping new players is ok. But stop making this game easy for idiots 1clic spammers, like the whole "light attack meta".
2) make more new hard content, vma is old now.
3) listen to veteran players.
4) recognize and reward loyalty

It might be more difficult than it seems... haha. For instance, although you seem to want "hard content" that doesn't represent the desires of all customers, whether they've been playing for a long time or not. It seems to me Zenimax does release more "hard content" every year - half of their expansions every year are geared towards that. I question whether or not more focus needs to be put on this when a good chunk of the player base really doesn't care about "hard content."

As for listening to "veteran players," personally I don't feel like my voice should be listened to more just because I've played this game since before CP was a thing. It doesn't make my thoughts any more or less important than someone who is new. I don't expect to be listened to over someone who is new. I expect ALL player feedback will be assessed as much as possible and put into the perspective of whatever the overarching development goals are. If I want a video game to bend to my whims alone, I'm going to have to learn some programming. Or get into tabletop RPGs and be a game master. Though if you do that, you will very quickly start to understand how balancing player feedback is a challenge. It's a challenge in a group of six... never mind 6 million plus or however many players this game has! Yeesh!

I also don't expect any sort of recognition of... what is it... loyalty? Hahah. Loyalty. To a video game? Haha... to be honest the concept of loyalty to a video game kind of makes me laugh a bit it just seems so silly to me. Dedicated player and customer perhaps, but loyalty? Nah. In any case, all the stuff in this game I've accumulated over time is plenty enough for me. And sadly, in most cases "loyalty rewards" are really just there to psychologically manipulate customers to keep engaged with that company's products. They aren't about us, they are about protecting the bottom line.

Just some thoughts. Take or leave at will, folks!

willjones1122

Xarcus wrote: »

it's not hard.

1) helping new players is ok. But stop making this game easy for idiots 1clic spammers, like the whole "light attack meta".
2) make more new hard content, vma is old now.
3) listen to veteran players.
4) recognize and reward loyalty

1 the easier they make base content the more people can play, the more they can sell. It's the lowest common denominator conundrum.
2. I don't disagree, but from zos point of view trials are supposed to be the hard content and thus they are checking that box
3. Nope. Your cash spends just as well as a newbies. And why should your opinion hold anymore weight than theirs? Less in fact due to the price point to become involved in the game right now vs your cost to continue playing (remember they already have your initial buy in so that doesnt count in your favor)
4. Again from ZOS point of view they are checking that box with eso+ getting discounts in the crown store and free statues.

I am not saying i don't agree with some of your points... Just saying that they are unlikely to be taken seriously due to the fact that the suits a ZOS want to make money. Losing 1% of the experienced player base isn't a big loss to them as long as they keep getting new players to replace them.

Alomar

Tbf, most of us left and moved on as it became clear years ago this is cash shop and loot crate driven game.

Klad

Back in 2006 Developers at Blizzard and SOE listened about difficulty of their games. "So many people are complaining they said...it must be well below the average players skill level"

So almost simultaneously they greatly increased the difficulty. The result was a metric *** of people left and the exact ones who wee screaming it's too, easy started screaming it's too hard.

There also another revelation; many admitted they just wanted to see if they could negatively effect people for the lulz.

[Edit to remove baiting]]

MEBengalsFan2001

Development of extremely difficult content does no good for the mass community in a game like ESO. Majority of players won't play the content because of its difficulty. How many players have successfully completed vCR+3 without buying a spot to get the skin? The percentage of players who have completed that trial is much smaller than the percentage of players who have completed just one of the three alliance main stories. On PS4 roughly 15% of players have completed one of the main story for one of three alliance. I'm going to say less than 1% of the game population has beaten vCR +3 and IMO that is being generous, it is probably closer to .01%.

With that said creating content that is more accessible to more players is more profitable to ZoS than creating the hardest possible content.

The other issue I have with the hard content is this; devs create it and player use broken mechanics and cheats to beat the content. If this cannot be done, players ask for the content to be adjusted because its to hard. Seen this so many times that I find creation of the extremely difficult content to be a waste of resources for a developer because they could have created content that was for the broader community and provide them additional funding for future development.

I like how ESO creates content. You have normal and vet. Normal is for your average player and can be completed by almost any group and vet requires more coordination between players to make it easier. Yes some groups have an easier time than others but those groups understand how to get the most benefits in dungeons and trials that content is a breeze for them. Maybe the devs could create more content like CR where you have CR +0, +1, +2, etc… That IMO would be a way to satisfy both the average and hard core players without over extending the developers too much with coding.

TiberSeptim

Xarcus wrote: »

We, veteran players, are this category of players who do not cry on forum everyday or for no reason, we did it so many times than now, we stopped.
sorry for my english.

He then proceeds to complain.

Deathlord92

Well this veteran player will be happy when they fix his nb they over nerf back in elsweyr.

ArchMikem

ZOS has never insulted me, what are you on about.

preevious

Well, I play since launch, and am able to do (and I do) some hard content.
Thus, I suppose I fit the bill to be a "veteran player".

However, all I can think, no matter how hard I try, when I read that post is a resounding "meh..."

I ask for nothing, and I'm interested in most aspects of the game. I'm happy. The day I won't be happy anymore, I'll just go. I won't plea to get things how I (personnaly, me, myself and I) think they should be.

mavfin

Define 'veteran players'. I've played the game since before One Tamriel. That's been around quite a while.

However, I seem to have little in common with the screed the OP put up...

mavfin

preevious wrote: »

Well, I play since launch, and am able to do (and I do) some hard content.
Thus, I suppose I fit the bill to be a "veteran player".

However, all I can think, no matter how hard I try, when I read that post is a resounding "meh..."

I ask for nothing, and I'm interested in most aspects of the game. I'm happy. The day I won't be happy anymore, I'll just go. I won't plea to get things how I (personnaly, me, myself and I) think they should be.

I pretty much agree. It is up to the game company to make the game for the audience they think they can make the most money from. If I'm not in that audience, I'll find another game. Not whine endlessly that they didn't change the game to fit me.

If I like the game, I'll play it. If not, I won't. I won't waste a bunch of time with 'maybe they should do this FOR ME!!!'.

Ghanima_Atreides

mavfin wrote: »

Define 'veteran players'. I've played the game since before One Tamriel. That's been around quite a while.

However, I seem to have little in common with the screed the OP put up...

Same here, and I've been around since open beta. I'm still not at CP cap though - too many characters.

adriant1978

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

mavfin wrote: »

Define 'veteran players'. I've played the game since before One Tamriel. That's been around quite a while.

However, I seem to have little in common with the screed the OP put up...

Same here, and I've been around since open beta. I'm still not at CP cap though - too many characters.

Same here, plus I still can't animation cancel.

newtinmpls

VaranisArano wrote: »

We veteran players aren't exactly a monolith. So specifics are good.

Good point.

I'm a "veteran player" in that I have played on PC (NA mostly) since about a month after launch. I was one of those that came here to play "Morrowind with friends" (hated Oblivion, watched my sweetie play Skyrim, but never played it myself).

I've played every character class, most of the races...I think...rarely tend to stick with Redgards for some reason and despite many false starts I think I have a whopping one Argonian. Not sure why, but that's how it is.

I personally:
-like housing, but wish there were more slots for furnishings, and more choices of "normal" types of housing items
-like non-combat pets, but wish there were /emotes for "fetch" or other interactions
-like other players in the world but don't like PvP - used to do "Battlegrounds" but without friends, for me, there is no appeal
-like the outfit station but simply will not pay the ridiculous price for other slots
-like a challenge, but the vet/trial "memorize the dance steps and get the exact gear" is just not fun for me

-loathe the crown crate system
-dislike that so many items are "bound on pickup"

I suspect there are many others with individual likes and dislikes

daim

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Well this veteran player will be happy when they fix his nb they over nerf back in elsweyr.

And this was a direct results of "player feedback"

TropicsDelight

Xarcus wrote: »

Theses players wont stay in this game. They're this new generation of players who need everything fast. And once they get it, they'll leave.
We, veteran players, are still here, and we'll stay... (or not)

Who are these "new players"?

How do you define a "new player"?

Are they "new to ESO"? are they "new to MMORPG's"? Are they "new to life and as such part of a younger generation"?

karekiz

Klad wrote: »

Back in 2006 Developers at Blizzard and SOE listened about difficulty of their games. "So many people are complaining they said...it must be well below the average players skill level"

So almost simultaneously they greatly increased the difficulty. The result was a metric *** of people left and the exact ones who wee screaming it's too, easy started screaming it's too hard.

There also another revelation; many admitted they just wanted to see if they could negatively effect people for the lulz.

[Edit to remove baiting]]

Gates of Discord /shiver.

Bradyfjord

All this veteran player wants is the game to stop lagging, especially in Cyrodiil where a moment of lag can get you wiped out by an opponent.

Arca94

Seriously - They just need to fix the lag


I'd be happy to delete my forum account and stop complaining then.

Xarc

preevious wrote: »

Well, I play since launch, and am able to do (and I do) some hard content.
Thus, I suppose I fit the bill to be a "veteran player".

However, all I can think, no matter how hard I try, when I read that post is a resounding "meh..."

I ask for nothing, and I'm interested in most aspects of the game. I'm happy. The day I won't be happy anymore, I'll just go. I won't plea to get things how I (personnaly, me, myself and I) think they should be.

I don't say we're not happy That's why we're still here, we love this game and we're having fun. But for exemple lag in cyro makes us play differently (avoid primetime, sadly), if we're not ragequiting because when you're pushing on a button, the game should simply do something instantly. But it doesnt.

I think most players have a tolerance threshold quite high about bugs and lags, in eso, because eso community is adult in term of ages.
but once the limit is exceeded, it's over.

Lysette

Xarcus wrote: »

it's not hard.

1) helping new players is ok. But stop making this game easy for idiots 1clic spammers, like the whole "light attack meta".
2) make more new hard content, vma is old now.
3) listen to veteran players.
4) recognize and reward loyalty

no pun intended, but that is what I've heard from bitter vets in games since years. at some point in time you guys stop adapting to new circumstances and while these games increase in popularity you guys claim that all was better in the past and all should listen to your input. This is not different from how grumpy grandpas behave in real life - no the past wasn't better at all and we don't want to go back to how it was.

kargen27

For every player wanting hard content there is a player complaining that rewards are locked behind hard content. ZoS has been pretty good about releasing difficult content. It has been a while since they have put in hard content meant to be soloed though. With the wide player base I can understand that decision though.